Harley Done In Milwaukee? [Archive]

NismoZ

08-05-10, 11:05 AM

After 107 yrs. and a few close calls it's sounding like Harley-Davidson may be set to move. Decision sometime in the near future. So, what is the setup there... are motorcycle builders United Auto Workers? Do they have the same/similar/worse contracts? Any bailout-type talk from the state or feds? I seem to recall the govt. giving them protection in the form of a temporary tariff on big Japanese bikes back in the '80s (I think) and they refit and reorganized quite successfully. Anything besides labor related costs at play? So where do they want to move...Tennessee, Mississippi or Alabama? (Kentucky!) Improved quality can go a long way toward becoming more competitive in the marketplace, but the problem this time seems to be something more formidable.:(

Methanolandbrats

08-05-10, 11:17 AM

Chinese Harleys :rofl:

High Sided

08-05-10, 11:43 AM

http://www.fox43.com/news/wpmt-harley-davidson-milwaukee,0,6114722.story

chop456

08-05-10, 12:28 PM

Anyone that'll pay $25,000 for farm machinery would surely pay $30,000. :D

Rogue Leader

08-05-10, 01:19 PM

What I love about Harleys....

The guys that go out and buy em, put 500-1000 miles on them in 3 years then try to sell them for as much as or MORE than they paid because "It's a Harley".... Well thats great but I could go down to the dealership and get a NEW Sportster just like yours with 0% financing for less.

(I sell used cars and bikes for people as a side job and this happened to me with EVERY Harley I've been contacted about. I never sold any of them and as far as I know they are still sitting in the guys garages).

pchall

08-05-10, 01:29 PM

Anyone that'll pay $25,000 for farm machinery would surely pay $30,000. :D

The guys I know who farm pay $250K+ for new farm machinery. A $30K Harley that could harvest corn would be a sweet deal.

Don Quixote

08-05-10, 02:10 PM

I think the govt should require every family with a household income greater than 100k to buy a Harley. Problem solved.

cameraman

08-05-10, 05:13 PM

I think the govt should require every family with a household income greater than 100k to buy a Harley. Problem solved.

Ummm, no. Speaking as a person with a neighbor who warms up his Harley for 10 minutes every day at 5:15AM I think the government should feed every single Harley, Indian, Fat Boy etc farting idiotic sled into a shredder and make the ex-owners all ride BMWs.

Don Quixote

08-05-10, 06:15 PM

dando

08-05-10, 07:34 PM

Ummm, no. Speaking as a person with a neighbor who warms up his Harley for 10 minutes every day at 5:15AM I think the government should feed every single Harley, Indian, Fat Boy etc farting idiotic sled into a shredder and make the ex-owners all ride BMWs.

Dude, one of my favorite things to do to start spring is start my bike (no baffled pipes) and let her run for a good hour to get her warmed up for the season. :D Mine is just a ricer street cruiser, but if I were choosing a long-haul cruiser, I'd be riding Alton Brown's bike of choice (R1100 or R1200). I seriously regret not buying one before the girls arrived and the option$ were good in the late 90s. :(

I any case, HD leaving Milwaukee will be a sad day indeed.

-Kevin

Methanolandbrats

08-05-10, 07:34 PM

Nothing wrong with Harleys until idiots take the stock exhaust off.

NismoZ

08-05-10, 08:03 PM

DQ, do NOT make jokes about what the government should do...they're already DOING it!:irked:

Don Quixote

08-05-10, 08:27 PM

DQ, do NOT make jokes about what the government should do...they're already DOING it!:irked:Point taken. :D

Tifosi24

08-05-10, 09:00 PM

Nothing wrong with Harleys until idiots take the stock exhaust off.

Amen to that. A stock Harley is as quiet as any bike on the market. My wife and I like going to Stillwater, MN, but with all the douchesicles who ride through that town with straight pipes, it is no surprise that one-third of the downtown is now vacant.

grungex

08-05-10, 09:08 PM

Ummm, no. Speaking as a person with a neighbor who warms up his Harley for 10 minutes every day at 5:15AM I think the government should feed every single Harley, Indian, Fat Boy etc farting idiotic sled into a shredder and make the ex-owners all ride BMWs.

I suppose I should have felt sympathetic when my neighbor had his repossessed, but somehow I wasn't. And my car is freakin' loud.

FTG

08-07-10, 01:17 AM

I think the govt should require every family with a household income greater than 100k to buy a Harley. Problem solved.

OR give them to Iraqis so Iraqis can enjoy the freedom of riding an American hog. Pay for it all with Iraqi oil.

pchall

08-07-10, 09:41 AM

Amen to that. A stock Harley is as quiet as any bike on the market. My wife and I like going to Stillwater, MN, but with all the douchesicles who ride through that town with straight pipes, it is no surprise that one-third of the downtown is now vacant.

It is the straight pipe that makes Harley's annoying. With the standard exhaust they are as "quiet" as my OHV 4 banger Renault 5 on a day when the exhaust system was not rattling loose... that big expansion can that clamped onto the exhaust manifold was a bitch to keep on properly. But then there was the cheap replacement system from Wilco that made it sound like it had a straight pipe... :D

OR give them to Iraqis so Iraqis can enjoy the freedom of riding an American hog. Pay for it all with Iraqi oil.

I think their prophet made some constraints that preclude an Iraqi guy from riding most members of the Harley Owners Group. ;)

Andrew Longman

08-10-10, 08:12 PM

So where do they want to move...Tennessee, Mississippi or Alabama? (Kentucky!) They already make more bikes in York PA than in Milwaukee. KC makes engines, Sportsters and other bikes. It would be a shame if Milwaukee closed and it would be a brain dead move against the HD brand, but (even though a lot of components are off shored) they would never off shore final production unless they want to commit hari cari.

That said, the plight of HD is mostly tied to the aging of the boomers. In their late 40s and 50s muscling a hog was an OK indulgence to midlife crisis. In their 60s it is becoming too hard and younger dudes don't want a heavy slow old man's bike.

The HD tattoos will last forever, but their willingness and ability to buy bikes will fade.

cameraman

08-11-10, 06:32 AM

Which is why I see more and more of these every day.

http://www.MobileWhack.com/harley_trike.jpg

pchall

08-11-10, 07:34 AM

The HD tattoos will last forever, but their willingness and ability to buy bikes will fade.

I suppose it is really too late for Harley to try to rebuild its fan base towards a younger demographic. They've needed a modern "Sportster" in the 250cc class as a starter bike for ages as well as a proper 750cc café racer for the younger guys with $30K for a toy.

Andrew Longman

08-11-10, 07:44 AM

I suppose it is really too late for Harley to try to rebuild its fan base towards a younger demographic. They've needed a modern "Sportster" in the 250cc class as a starter bike for ages as well as a proper 750cc café racer for the younger guys with $30K for a toy.That's probably exactly right. The Buell badge might have been an asset in this but it was always more a charity case than corporate strategy.

stroker

08-11-10, 08:37 AM

What they REALLY need to do is buy an Italian manufacturer (say, MV) for about $200 million then sell it back to the guys they bought it from two years later for $1.

Oh, wait...

oddlycalm

08-11-10, 04:05 PM

H-D doesn't actually have any plants in Milwaukee. The old plant is in Wauwatosa and the Briggs & Stratton plant they took over a decade back is in Monomonee Falls. Just sayin...:gomer:

H-D's diversification strategy hasn't worked. Holiday Rambler was aimed at the same baby boomer audience the bikes are. As AL posted Buell was never a profit center and as stroker mentioned the MV Augusta purchase was stoopid with a big S. Meanwhile, back at the ranch, they haven't solved some of the fundamental issues with the core product. Most dealer profit comes from selling clothes and other "lifestyle" accessories which are the first thing to stop selling when money is tight. As long as there was a waiting list to get bikes there was an arrogance that was palpable. Now, not so much. As their customer base ages they have no replacement.

All of those are great reasons to ask local government for concessions or the people that do the work for give backs as well as location shopping...:saywhat:

I will give them credit for doing what most US mfg's have not done and investing in new plants and machinery in the US. They have bought the best equipment available and they have tried to hire the best manufacturing engineers. That part of their strategy worked fine. I remember what a museum the old plant was when AMF sold the company and it was even worse before they bought it.

oc

Andrew Longman

08-11-10, 05:24 PM

They have bought the best equipment available and they have tried to hire the best manufacturing engineers. That part of their strategy worked fine.

Ditto. I had HD as a client years back and helped them set up the KC plant and structure the nextgen project. They were smart and committed to doing things right. The result was much improved product quality and first class manufacturing sites.

But I also remember the CEO crowing about how his customers tattooed the HD logo on their body and about the deep customer relationship they had. He was right and they milked it well but I always wondered how they planned to replace aging boomers as customers. It was almost verboten to talk about anything outside the monolithic HOG customer profile. I think that explains why Buell never being more than an orphan given a room and a meal. I also don't know why HD hasn't done more with their NHRA participation to gin up some youthful exuberance.

oddlycalm

08-12-10, 07:37 PM

He was right and they milked it well but I always wondered how they planned to replace aging boomers as customers.
Yep, they've got world class marketing but without a business strategy to guide it they seem to be flailing. The economic deleveraging has cooked the market for entertainment vehicles along with everything else non-essential. Their answer is to ask their employees and strapped state and local government to shoulder the load. I don't see that going over well from any angle.

What they sorely needed to do was to diversify out of the rec vehicle sector back when times were good. Not sure if they still have the military work the guv tossed them back in the 80's. It was mostly low tech stuff like cast iron cases for gravity bombs.

oc

Napoleon

11-25-10, 07:00 PM

Whatever happened with this? I know HD had some money problems, but haven't heard anything more.

NismoZ

11-25-10, 09:45 PM

Last I heard there were give backs, a settlement and they're staying.

pchall

11-29-10, 11:26 AM

What is with this fascination with H-D? You might as well take a trip in your car. Of course, the only bike I've ever bought was a used up 90cc Ace dirt bike. :D

oddlycalm

11-29-10, 07:23 PM

What is with this fascination with H-D? You might as well take a trip in your car.
A lot of it is the uneven spacing of the crankpins which gives them a loping rather than even firing order. Long stroke, narrow bore is part of it. Low center of gravity and low seat height. Compared to modern bikes that are all covered up in plastic panel H-D's still wear their insides on the outside. I like a fast blast as well as anyone but I also like to ride at a human pace and enjoy leisurely pace. I guess the final bit for me is that it's a bit of a contraption, and a particularly American one.

oc

Andrew Longman

11-29-10, 09:48 PM

A lot of it is the uneven spacing of the crankpins which gives them a loping rather than even firing order.Which gives it the distinctive POE TAY TOE - POE TAY TOE sound. Patented I believe and if IIRC they sued Honda to keep them from copying it.

grungex

11-29-10, 11:13 PM

Was the suit successful?

Mr. Vengeance

11-30-10, 12:51 AM

Was the suit successful?

No. Harley tried to trademark the single crank pin engine sound but eventually bailed out on it. I can't recall if there was a suit against Honda specifically or whether it was just a move to cause Honda to cease production of that type of engine. There was a time when it seemed Harley was suing everyone under the sun (lots of copyright infringement stuff).

At any rate, it was an asinine and arrogant move. Picture Chevy suing Ford because their V8s sound similar.

Napoleon

11-30-10, 06:28 AM

For whatever it is worth, a show I listen to on radio (NPR) and podcast ran a segment recently on Harleys and I seem to recall they addressed the whole copyright/suing Honda story. The shows premise is that Harley Davidson is an American Icon (datachicane, if you are reading this one of the Icons in the series is Fallingwaters).

http://beta.studio360.org/2010/oct/14/harley-davidson/

The show the segment is from: http://www.studio360.org/episodes/2010/10/15

High Sided

11-30-10, 10:17 AM

it was the 1997 honda shadow 1100 ace that stirred up harley...
the shadow sound... http://www.bc.edu/bc_org/avp/law/st_org/iptf/exhibits/1998101101_shadow.wav

The Trademark Registrability of the Harley-Davidson Roar:
http://www.bc.edu/bc_org/avp/law/st_org/iptf/articles/content/1998101101.html

oddlycalm

11-30-10, 07:28 PM

While I was at Yamazaki (Mazak now) in Japan in the early 80's I saw a prototype that Porsche Design had done for Harley of a water cooled V-4 engine. The fact that Harley management had gone outside for a new design told it's own story but the fact that the prototype would end up in Japan where it could be seen and inspected by someone walking in the door (such as myself) said unflattering things about how naive H-D management was.

H-D ultimately dropped the program but Honda had their V-4 Interceptor line on the street within a year with an engine that looked very much like the Porsche design prototype. I'm sure that was nothing but a coincidence... :shakehead

oc

Methanolandbrats

11-30-10, 07:50 PM