The aging infrastructure

[cameraman]

It turns out that 30" gas line that blew in California was some 60 years old. It makes you wonder how much more pipe out there is that old or older and what its lifespan is and does anyone really know the answer. The cost of replacement when it finally reaches that point will be staggering.

[Andrew Longman]

Not just gas pipes but water pipes too. And there are many, many more of them and they are usually the responsibility of nearly broke local governments

http://www.stateline.org/live/details/story?contentId=511293

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/18/us/18water.html

Of course when gas lines leak it is much more spectacular.

As your titles suggests though ALL our infrastructure is in a bad way. Much of the stimulus package money targets infrastructure so that's a good thing even if it doesn't have the immediate impact on jobs and the economy that many would also like.

[dando]

Not just gas pipes but water pipes too. And there are many, many more of them and they are usually the responsibility of nearly broke local governments

http://www.stateline.org/live/details/story?contentId=511293

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/18/us/18water.html

Of course when gas lines leak it is much more spectacular.

As your titles suggests though ALL our infrastructure is in a bad way. Much of the stimulus package money targets infrastructure so that's a good thing even if it doesn't have the immediate impact on jobs and the economy that many would also like.

AL, most of the 'infrastructure' projects around here and in the state are just speed ups of previously funded projects and/or are very superficial. The stimulus was intended to be for 'shovel ready' projects, so nothing of any long-term benefit will come as a result. The is not the TVA part II. :(

Oh, and not only water pipes, but the sewer lines are also in grave condition. We're talking a century for some of the lines that have been failing around here the past several years. We're in for a world of hurt over the next 10-20 years. :(

-Kevin

[cameraman]

Yeah the spending packages around here cover widening the interstates and adding exchanges in the 50 mile stretch where everybody lives. When you get out into the sticks out here many of the interstates use the same concrete that Eisenhower paid for.

It has taken 4 years of construction to upgrade and replace one sewer line here in Salt Lake and that put a huge hit on the local streets budget.

This country has a lot of folks who are not rich and howl like crazy every time someone suggests replacing this or that. Of course they are the same people who complain like mad when it fails too:irked:

[Methanolandbrats]

Everything near me is failing. Water, sewer, bridges, telephone poles. Hell, some of the streets look like they endured an artillery battle. I would not be surprised if a large segment of the population ends up drinking rainwater, crapping in grocery bags and peeing in their yards.

[mapguy]

I would not be surprised if a large segment of the population ends up drinking rainwater, crapping in grocery bags and peeing in their yards.

You live near Schenectady?

[extramundane]

Everything near me is failing. Water, sewer, bridges, telephone poles. Hell, some of the streets look like they endured an artillery battle. I would not be surprised if a large segment of the population ends up drinking rainwater, crapping in grocery bags and peeing in their yards.

Tell me about it. One of the downfalls of living in one of the country's oldest cities is that we also have some of the oldest infrastructure. But if we play our cards right, we might get a sparkly new stadium for AA baseball! :irked:

[oddlycalm]

This country has a lot of folks who are not rich and howl like crazy every time someone suggests replacing this or that. Of course they are the same people who complain like mad when it fails too:irked:
Yeah, if you spend much time at neighborhood association or town council meetings you see that repeated ad nauseum.

Here's a chart of the federal marginal tax rates for the highest bracket. Eisenhower had his hand a lot deeper in their pockets.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e5/MarginalIncomeTax.svg/500px-MarginalIncomeTax.svg.png

[Andrew Longman]

AL, most of the 'infrastructure' projects around here and in the state are just speed ups of previously funded projects and/or are very superficial. Tru dat. But repaving/widening a road, while in the long run is not as good as replacing a sewer line, it is better than passing a tax scheme to reward more Wall Street "investment" or simply giving people cash to spend.

But let's not get all political. A bunch of unseen pipes are really old but there is no sex appeal in replacing them, especially at these prices.

[dando]

But let's not get all political.

Definitely wasn't going there. There is enough blame to go around on both sides of the aisle for the mess we're in. It just pisses me off when I see signs for projects that are being paid for with stimulus $$$ that have been underway for years (like the ridiculous bridge being built b/w Somers Point and OCNJ). A prime example of why NJ is broke. :saywhat: oHIo just decided to stop putting those signs on project sites. Brilliant! What we need is a long-term plan to rebuild bridges, etc. or we're going to end up having more Minneapolis catastrophes.

-Kevin

[Gnam]

A bunch of unseen pipes are really old but there is no sex appeal in replacing them, especially at these prices.

I object. Laying pipe has always enjoyed widespread bipartisan support. :p

http://img826.imageshack.us/img826/2010/petty07.jpg http://img705.imageshack.us/img705/7862/petty02big.jpg

[Andrew Longman]

(like the ridiculous bridge being built b/w Somers Point and OCNJ)How else are we going to get tourist from Ohio to pay our bills? Seems to work for FL. :gomer:

[Tifosi24]

I have the pleasure of working in utility regulation, so I get to deal with infrastructure frequently. On the utility side, there is a great deal of older stuff out there, but the main thing right now is the amount of new infrastructure that needs to be built. Unfortunately, it is so difficult these days to get things built, whether it be NIMBYs or the fact that a great deal of the components, which were made here during the last electric power build out in the 1970s, are now made overseas. I am not an engineer but, from different presentations I have been to, these components are very complex and take many months or years to get on site. This long lead time coupled with it being very difficult to get anything built concerns me in terms of future reliability.

If one thing the I-35W bridge collapse up here has taught me, it is that with the correct will, major projects can still be built in a relatively short period of time, if people are willing to pay for it. The day after the bridge collapsed, if you had told me it would be reopened in 15 months, I would have told you that you were crazy. However, the main problem with electricity, natural gas (like the San Bruno accident), petroleum, railroads, and even water districts is that they are almost entirely privately owned. I certainly am not in favor of nationalizing any of these sectors, but people need to realize that these owners will not go above and beyond unless they can make money at it (case in point being the CSX large minority shareholder that routinely vetos important upgrades).

[Indy]

But, but, but, the free market is always better, right? That is what they told me in economics school. :gomer:

[Gnam]

Here's the aging pipe that failed in that San Bruno neighborhood.
They didn't excavate it. The explosion blew it out of the ground and hurled it down the block. :eek:

More photos here:http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2010/09/11/MNB91FCDGK.DTL

http://img52.imageshack.us/img52/2731/bablast120502220306.jpg

[oddlycalm]

We had a 36" pipeline cross our alfalfa field on a farm in Idaho we owned back in the 70's. Just after we sold it they put in a 2nd one. The company flew the length of it daily in a Cessna 210 looking for dirt geysers from the 300psi gas line. I got to know that pilot and he told me that the dirt geysers were easy to spot because they were 30ft. high. Understanding the risks back then it never occurred to me that they would run them through densely populated areas, but of course the companies will put them anywhere they are allowed to.

Back in 1999 a gasoline pipeline failed near Bellingham, WA and three kids were killed. Just the cost of doing bidness.
Bellingham pipeline explosion (http://www.historylink.org/index.cfm?DisplayPage=output.cfm&File_Id=5468)

oc

[Tifosi24]

Understanding the risks back then it never occurred to me that they would run them through densely populated areas, but of course the companies will put them anywhere they are allowed to.



It is not so much that they put them in densely populated areas, but that the densely populated areas grow into them.

[cameraman]

The line was there before the subdivision. I must say that I am amazed that both the pipeline company and the zoning board allowed a subdivision to be built on top of a 30" gas line.:saywhat:

[Andrew Longman]

It is not so much that they put them in densely populated areas, but that the densely populated areas grow into them.

I spent my teenage years with a gas pipeline running through my backyard. First two 24"ers then they added a 36" in the 80s. All built after the house was built. The house next door was taken down to put in the first line about 1965. This all in the middle of a well established neighborhood in Central Jersey.

We never thought much about it. It gave us open space to walk the dog, play football, whatever and we never had to worry about neighbors too close. It did hurt resale when my parents tried to sell it for their retirement though. Especially when a pipeline "blowed up" in Edison when it was hit by a backhoe trying to bury a truck for an insurance scam.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edison,_New_Jersey_natural_gas_explosion

FWIW it looks like the CA explosion might have been caused by construction trying to replace aging sewer pipes

http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/home/50266293-75/san-gas-pipeline-sewer.html.csp


In one potentially significant area for investigators, records surfaced showing that two years ago, the San Bruno City Council hired a construction company to replace underground sewer lines in the same area as the location of the pipeline that exploded.

In May 2008, the city approved a contract with D’Arcy and Harty Construction, a San Francisco company, to replace 1,670 feet of aging sewer pipes on Earl Avenue from Sneath Lane to Glenview Drive. The sewer work crossed the gas pipeline at the intersection of Earl and Glenview, which is the location of the explosion.

To avoid the disruption of digging trenches in the street, the contractor used a method called “pipe bursting.” Crews pulled a large cone-shaped device through the aging 6-inch sewer pipes, shattering them, and replaced them by pulling a new 10-inch polyethylene sewer pipe in behind them. The technique can cause ground shaking and disruption of adjacent soil and rock.

[Elmo T]

The line was there before the subdivision. I must say that I am amazed that both the pipeline company and the zoning board allowed a subdivision to be built on top of a 30" gas line.:saywhat:

As Mr. Longman noted, gas pipelines are all over these parts. I think we have around 10 large transmission lines in our County. The Texas Eastern line runs through several large housing developments in my town and through the shopping centers in a nearby borough.

They recently upgraded the line. I believe it is 36"+ now.