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WickerBill
11-25-10, 09:16 AM
If I'm honest with all of you, I watch a few races a year and generally keep track of what is happening in the sport, even though the racing itself is really dull most of the time. I like to know how Montoya and a couple others are doing -- usually the ones who infuriate the rebel-flag crowd the most are the ones I want to see do well.

With that admission of gomerism out of the way, the changes that NASCAR is making to the Sprint Cup series over the last few years aren't addressing the real problem. And obviously, as with anything, you can't fix something if you aren't clear on what the issue is.

The issue is clear to any CART/Champcar/F1 fan: the technology in the cars has been in use for too long. However, give me a chance to explain why this is not just another rant about wanting technology for the sake of the "cool factor". The changes that have been made in no way change the reliability of the motor, drive chain, and (to an extent) chassis, so everyone's going to always stay on the track. Everyone knows every piece inside and out, and most importantly, everyone knows where the "wall" is -- that is, everyone knows doing XXXXX works, but XXXXY breaks the motor. There is no headroom for trying new things, there is basically no room at all to learn. The technology has simply been in use too long, and everyone knows every limit.

Without question, and with good reason, NASCAR can't afford to simply open up the specs, like we open-wheel people would like to see. However, they could solve this consistency/limits issue by issuing new specifications for engine and drivetrain every 5-7 years. And honestly, it wouldn't matter if it was "new technology" to the industry -- it just needs to be different technology to NASCAR. They could say for 2012-2018, we're using 3.6L V6s with five speed gearboxes. For 2019-2025, we're using 2.0L turbocharged 4cyl with four speed gearboxes and push-to-pass. For 2026-2031, we're using 2.5L turbodiesels with six speed gearboxes and variable ride-height technology. Hell, for 2032-2038, we're using 3.0L V12s.

The point is, NASCAR hasn't hit the "reset" button on the motor and drivetrain since the switch to small blocks about a thousand years ago. This has more or less removed the engine and drivetrain from the equation... almost everyone is equal or close to it in that department, and the wins and losses come from spending tens of millions in the wind tunnel, on suspension, and on pit stops. But stop and think about my premise -- the engine is a non-factor in NASCAR racing.

You change the motor and transmission, and you'll get excitement and intrigue. Jimmie lapped the field but his motor let go. Hamlin got the gearing all wrong for this track. Will Penske solve their reliability issue. Mario is slowing down. You get the idea.


Thoughts, insults, and laughter at my stupidity all welcome...

SteveH
11-25-10, 09:38 AM
Thoughts, insults, and laughter at my stupidity all welcome...

Posted at 7:16 am. That's what bothers me the most about this. :D Not that you're wrong, but first thing in the morning. :gomer:

And before you even posted your Thanksgiving post. :p

racer2c
11-25-10, 09:40 AM
Preach on brotha! The problem resides in the mentality of the "guys in the red trailer". It's entertainment first...sport second.

I think 'they' (NASCAR brass) underestimated the engineers and believed that the CoT was the 'reset' button. As outdated as the specs are, the big teams are polishing turds in cad/cam software and wind tunnels in state of the art facilities.

I never thought I'd live to see the day where an Indy Car is less difficult to drive than a NASCAR tank. The modern die hard NASCAR fan has come to accept momentum pack racing. If the engine or areo specs were changed dramatically each 2 years that resulted in drastic on track shuffles or even some run away racing, the confusion among NASCAR fans would have them tuning off in droves.

In order to 'fix' NASCAR you have to think like a NASCARian not an open wheel aficionado i.e. gimmicks! Sitting the champ out a year would help break up championship strings. Inverted fields. Circle 8's. You get the idea. :)

Methanolandbrats
11-25-10, 09:54 AM
Nothing can fix that ****, WGAF. :)

Elmo T
11-25-10, 11:06 AM
Phe modern die hard NASCAR fan has come to accept momentum pack racing. :)

Once the rules tampering created momentum pack racing, the fans have come to expect it - even love it. Look at how the IRL created the same "SIDE BY SIDE!" racing. :yuck: It gets old quick.

Change WILL be coming to NASCAR, one way or another.

Indy
11-25-10, 11:43 AM
Nothing can fix that ****, WGAF. :)

What brats said, but with more emphasis.

stroker
11-25-10, 11:53 AM
for me the problem came when they stopped using OEM unibodies back in the late 70's. I don't give a crap about what frame Banjo Matthews and his ilk can build. They need to go to something like the Koni series using OEM frames/suspension/drivetrains as the starting point for the car. Keep the tire size down to something like OEM so the cars don't get too fast, etc.

If you want to use something like the COT for developing alternative "green" drivetrains, that's fine. A race between a genuinely "stock" Taurus and a COT powered by hydrogen would be pretty cool.

My $.02.

Methanolandbrats
11-25-10, 01:12 PM
for me the problem came when they stopped using OEM unibodies back in the late 70's. I don't give a crap about what frame Banjo Matthews and his ilk can build. They need to go to something like the Koni series using OEM frames/suspension/drivetrains as the starting point for the car. Keep the tire size down to something like OEM so the cars don't get too fast, etc.

If you want to use something like the COT for developing alternative "green" drivetrains, that's fine. A race between a genuinely "stock" Taurus and a COT powered by hydrogen would be pretty cool.

My $.02.

Ya, pretty much. It was still interesting up to the late 80s with drivers like Gant and the somewhat stock templates for the cars. Then it went to hell in a hurry. The downward spiral ended with the COT, a spec POS if there ever was one.

oddlycalm
11-25-10, 05:18 PM
Preach on brotha! The problem resides in the mentality of the "guys in the red trailer". It's entertainment first...sport second.
Indeed. Once they went to a marketing driven "show" the real racing died. On one hand they were smart to market to a wider audience which brought with it the big money sponsors but their approach to doing it killed the golden goose. One thing for certain is that the third generation jacktards that run it now won't ever find their way out of the corner they've made for themselves.

oc

pchall
11-29-10, 11:30 AM
Fixing NASCRAP would involve shooting the entire France Family Mafia.

But I really don't give a crap so I'm not doing anything.

Is there any good racing series left on the planet?

WickerBill
11-29-10, 11:46 AM
I don't think NASCAR can be amazing or anything, but I think it can be made a lot better than it is. It's time to contract some of the dull-as-heck 1.5 mile ovals, bring back some of the bullrings that made NASCAR somewhat exciting in the 80s, and (as I said above) hit the reset button on the engine and transmission.

If you truly enjoy racing, I think you would watch Daytona the year they switched to smaller displacement turbocharged engines, because suddenly there would be seriously divergent strategies, speeds, and luck.