Qaddafi Duck

[Gnam]

This dude is wierd. :saywhat:

http://img573.imageshack.us/img573/5200/gaddafi.jpg

[Michaelhatesfans]

You have to love the proctology inspired facial hair, though

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2008/07/24/article-1038392-000C558200000578-346_233x423.jpg

[G.]

Didn't he write "I Am Indy"?

[Ankf00]

1986 should've involved more airstrikes

[Gnam]

More airstrikes on the way...

The USS Enterprise has been turned around and is back in the Med where it joins the amphibious assault ship USS Kearsarge and its 700 Marines.

[Elmo T]

No fly zone to start I'd guess - though attacks on known civilian spots might result in airstrikes.

[KLang]

Don't we need to wait and see what the UN says to do first? ;)

[dando]

Don't we need to tell the UN what to do first? ;)

Fixed. :gomer:

-Kevin

[WickerBill]

http://www.welovetheiraqiinformationminister.com/images/07-minister.jpg


"There is no fighting going on"

[Insomniac]

Why can't this be someone else's problem?

[cameraman]

Why can't this be someone else's problem?

It seriously effects the price of oil so it is your problem.

[WickerBill]

Why can't this be someone else's problem?

If you're making a reference to the event at Lord's Cricket Ground, I applaud you. If not, ignore this.

[Insomniac]

It seriously effects the price of oil so it is your problem.

Kinda like how oil prices dropped after attacking Iraq? :)

[Indy]

Didn't he write "I Am Indy"?

:laugh:

It's sort of hard to tell without the makeup. :rofl:

[SurfaceUnits]

http://i55.tinypic.com/2qxnfjn.jpg

[SurfaceUnits]

Why can\'t this be someone else\'s problem?

because all US domestic oil production is under duress from assorted factions for assorted political reasons

[Elmo T]

This is not going to help his cause. :shakehead

Libyan forces loyal to Col. Muammar el-Qaddafi have captured three crew members of a Dutch naval helicopter who were rescuing European citizens (http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/04/world/africa/04netherlands.html?partner=rss&emc=rss)

[Gnam]

It's encouraging that the Libyans released the two civilians the Dutch soldiers were trying to rescue. Still, I wonder if it was a trap to grab some military hostages.

[SteveH]

http://i55.tinypic.com/2qxnfjn.jpg

:rofl:

[nrc]

Is it too late to get the Aussies to send in some F-111s just for old time's sake?

[opinionated ow]

Is it too late to get the Aussies to send in some F-111s just for old time's sake?

Unfortunately a few months too late...

[Cam]

Drop your bombs between the minarets.

Yup... They are all now sunbaking at Davis Monthan.

[cameraman]

This was kind of cool. If you look at Davis Monthan AFB using google you'll catch this helo in flight over the skyhawks.

http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii35/Cynops/Davis-Monthan.jpg

[Gnam]

Nice. :thumbup:


Approximate location of US Carrier fleet and Amphibious Assault ships as of Wed, March 2nd.

http://www.zerohedge.com/sites/default/files/images/user5/imageroot/von%20havenstein/Naval_Update_03_02_11_800.jpg

The USS Enterprise is still in the Red Sea and the remaining Atlantic Carriers are all in port. Two Amphibious Assault vessels left the Crete Naval base on Saturday after being refueled and reinforced with 400 Marines, bringing their total compliment to 1200 Marines.

http://www.google.com/hostednews/canadianpress/article/ALeqM5gXnBbgpe7WEhQchMKbyAWivh97Sw?docId=6144467

The USS Kearsarge carries 6 Harrier jets, but those are not enough to enforce a no-fly zone. Plus, there's no way they land Marines without air supremacy established. Until there's an aircraft carrier parked of his coast, I don't think Qaddafi has to worry about an invasion, and the rebels are on their own.

[Michaelhatesfans]

Don't we need to wait and see what the UN says to do first? ;)

No, these days we have to get permission from the Russians.

[nrc]

Approximate location of US Carrier fleet and Amphibious Assault ships as of Wed, March 2nd.

Let the Italians deal with it. Qaddafi may have been toast in '86 if they hadn't warned him. It'd be nice to see the Euros handle the heavy lifting on this one if they're suddenly finding "regime change" so much less distasteful.

Oh wait. They can't.


But despite these reforms, European armies still lack the means to operate in difficult theaters. Clara Marina O'Donnell, a research fellow at the Centre for European Reform, says European defense capabilities have actually been diminished since they took part in NATO's 1995 bombing campaign in Bosnia. "Europeans would be not be prepared for any intervention in Libya now. They cannot deliver on action. In fact, Europe could [probably] not do Bosnia again," she says.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/time/08599205722900

Anyway, with the size Lybia a single carrier probably can't enforce a country-wide no-fly zone. The best they could do would be focus on the areas where rebels are active.

[SteveH]

Crater the runways at the few air bases the Libyan air force has and there's no need to enforce the no fly zone.

[Elmo T]

Crater the runways at the few air bases the Libyan air force has and there's no need to enforce the no fly zone.

I get the impression they won't do that (or anything) without an all-out assault on air defenses first.

[nrc]

Crater the runways at the few air bases the Libyan air force has and there's no need to enforce the no fly zone.

Stupid commie planes don't need much in the way of a runway.

It's really hard to say how much capability Libya has to resist enforcement of a no-fly zone. By most accounts their air force and air defenses are in a pretty poor state. But it only takes one working SAM to really ruin someone's day.

What amuses me is the effort to put a humanitarian face on the calls for intervention. This is past the point of police or army firing into peaceful protests into a full-blown rebellion. We're really talking about supporting rebel forces to depose a dictator.

[Indy]

It seems to me that you could save a lot of lives by dropping a missile on Gaddafi's head. Some guy at the BBC interviewed him at a seaside cafe a few days ago. How hard could he be to find?

[Gnam]

We're really talking about supporting rebel forces to depose a dictator.

No one is ready for the U.S. to cross that line.
Not Washington, Tehran, Bejing, or Moscow. Once the US is in the business of helping rebels, everyone's got problems.

People will revolt expecting the US to come to their aid.
When we don't, they'll be slaughtered and the dictators will still be in charge.

This past week the Chinese were so scared about a few protests in Bejing they lifted the veil on their security apparatus and went into lockdown mode. Beating up foreign reporters in the streets is not how they usually handle things, but they are afraid.


One revolution at a time, OK: Iraq -> Afghanistan -> Tunisia -> Egypt -> Libya

All at once, BOOM: YemenOmanBahrainSaudiArabiaIranPakistan*China*Nort hKorea*

(* now with nuclear frosting)

[Gnam]

1) Qaddafi forces retake western city of Zawiyah.

2) U.S. Secretary of State Hillary Clinton made it clear imposing a no-fly zone is a matter for the United Nations and should not be a U.S.-led initiative.

3) NATO out too.

http://www.haaretz.com/news/international/at-least-40-killed-as-gadhafi-forces-recapture-rebel-held-libya-city-1.348167

Not looking good for the Libyan peoples.

[Gnam]

I want to remind people that we had a no-fly zone over Iraq. It did not prevent Saddam Hussein from slaughtering people on the ground and it did not get him out of office," [Secretary of State] Clinton said.

"We had a no-fly zone and then we had 78 days of bombing in Serbia. It did not get Milosevic out of office. It did not get him out of Kosovo until we put troops on the ground with our allies," she added. "I really want people to understand what we are looking at."

http://af.reuters.com/article/libyaNews/idAFN1013765320110310?sp=true


That is true and a great argument to sober people up to the limits of a no-fly-zone.
But neither of those dictators were facing organized armed resistance.

Qaddafi Duck is.

[Gnam]

This is not going to help his cause. :shakehead

Libyan forces loyal to Col. Muammar el-Qaddafi have captured three crew members of a Dutch naval helicopter who were rescuing European citizens (http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/04/world/africa/04netherlands.html?partner=rss&emc=rss)

Dutch soldiers go free. Released to Greece.

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/babylonbeyond/2011/03/libya-protests-12.html :)

[opinionated ow]

Crater the runways at the few air bases the Libyan air force has and there's no need to enforce the no fly zone.

Given that a bunch of them have flown to other countries and requested political asylum there won't be many military aircraft left...

[Gnam]

On Saturday, two ships from the USS Enterprise battle group passed through the Suez Canal into the Med. They were the Los Angeles class attack submarine USS Providence and the Guided Missile Destroyer USS Mason.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2011/03/12/AR2011031201899.html

They could be providing security and preparing the way for the USS Enterprise to move into the Med, or they could have been detached from the Battle Group and are on their way to Libya. Both vessels are capable of attacking land targets with cruise missiles.

Ships still in the Red Sea with the Enterprise include (6) Destroyers and (1) Cruiser.

[Michaelhatesfans]

In a perfect world, the Middle East uses it's Migs, Sukhois, Falcons, Eagles, Mirages, etc to sort this out by itself.

But, rather, we live in the world where Middle Eastern nations encourage the rest of the world to enforce a no fly zone to reign in one dictator to keep him from killing his own people, while they send in their troops to protect a different dictator from his people killing him.

:\

[Indy]

Exactly. The Saudis are thinking, "Damn it, Gaddafi, you are ruining it for the rest of us."

[Gnam]

Looks like two Libyans in a VW bus are no match for the regular army.
They're getting rolled up pretty quick.

At this point, a time traveling DeLorean would be more helpful than a no-fly zone.
Then maybe the rebels would have a shot at taking Qaddafi out. :(


http://img222.imageshack.us/img222/4062/buskk.jpg

[Gnam]

Bring down the rain. UN Security Council says "BLAST 'EM!"

http://uk.reuters.com/article/2011/03/17/uk-libya-idUKLDE71Q0MP20110317

No word if any actual blasting will occur. The USS Enterprise is still sitting in the Red Sea.

[nrc]

Perhaps since the Arab League signed off, Egypt would allow NATO planes to operate from there? If Italy, Crete, or Greece are game, F15s could probably operate from there with some tanking assistance.

Since the UN has basically given their attack dog permission to do whatever it takes to prevent the rebels from being wiped out, I wouldn't be surprised to see B1s and B2s over the coastal region in a day or so. They'll probe the air defenses and determine how much threat is really there. If the air defenses are not a credible threat they'll start putting the hammer to Mommars boys very soon.

[KLang]

Isn't it too late? The rebels have been mostly defeated.

[Elmo T]

Isn't it too late? The rebels have been mostly defeated.

He deserves whatever he gets - but agreed, it seems way too late. Especially if limited to protecting the "rebel" held cities and civilians. Not sure how much of a generalized attack this might be.

EDIT - And no sooner do I post that and this pops up:

Libya declares ceasefire after UN resolution (http://in.reuters.com/article/2011/03/18/libya-formin-idINWEA950120110318)


"(Libya) takes great interest in protecting civilians," he said, adding that the country would also protect all foreigners and foreign assets in Libya.

:rolleyes:

[KLang]

CNN:


Libya's foreign minister declares cease-fire after U.N. Security Council OKs no-fly zone to protect civilians.

Qaddafi is still in charge.

[TrueBrit]

CNN:



Qaddafi is still in charge.

For now...

[Gnam]

Reports of continued fighting despite the cease fire.

Why would Qaddafi stop? He is more worried about the rebels than the UN.

[nrc]

He's going to try the "ceasefire" tactic to see if that will delay any action. He may even call off the dogs and wait to see if the rest of the world losses interest or the opposition melts away.

[Gnam]

I also want to be clear about what we will not be doing. The United States is not going to deploy ground troops into Libya. And we are not going to use force to go beyond a well-defined goal -- specifically, the protection of civilians in Libya. In the coming weeks, we will continue to help the Libyan people with humanitarian and economic assistance so that they can fulfill their aspirations peacefully.

-President Obama, March 18

Wonder if that means the UN has agreed to send the blue helmet peace keepers. Surely they'll need forward observers to direct air strikes, security for the humanitarian missions, and boots on the ground to help the rebels.

[KLang]

I don't think the UN said anything about 'helping the rebels'. This is all about protecting 'civilians', not getting rid of Quaddafi. My take anyway...

[Gnam]

The Canadians are coming!
The Canadians are coming!


The [six] CF-18 war planes for deployment in the Libyan mission are currently stationed at the Bagotville base in Quebec. It would take the jets almost a day to reach their destination, which has not been disclosed yet.

http://www.rttnews.com/Content/MarketSensitiveNews.aspx?Id=1579284&SM=1&pageNum=1

[cameraman]

I surely hope that someone is going to send some SEAD aircraft in with those CF-18s.:eek:

[NismoZ]

"Let the Italians deal with it.":D:rofl::rofl:Quick, somebody post a picture or video of one of those famous Ferrari pitstops. OBviously everything is under control, the Pres just left town.:)

[SurfaceUnits]

Fighter Jet Goes Down Near Libyan Rebel-Held Benghazi

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-12794589

http://media.voanews.com/images/480*334/ap_libya_plane_shot_19mar11_eng_480.jpg


http://www.voanews.com/english/news/Fighter-Jet-Goes-Down-Near-Libyan-Rebel-Held-Benghazi--118290174.html

[indyfan31]

And we are not going to use force to go beyond a well-defined goal -- specifically, the protection of civilians in Libya.

That's the most vague definition of a well defined goal I've ever seen. Is it just me or is this the most spineless Leader of the Free World in a few decades? :shakehead

[SurfaceUnits]

i for one am tired of Americans paying taxes and dying for the rest of the world. Bring our troops home Mr. President

\\\\\\\"Hey, hey LBJ, how many kids have you killed today?\\\\\\\"

\\\\\\\"One, two, three, four! We don\\\\\\\'t want your ****ing war!\\\\\\\"

\\\\\\\"LBJ – pull out like your old man should have!\\\\\\\"

http://www.thevillager.com/villager_119/naked.gif

http://sabbah.biz/mt/images/breastnotbombs1.JPG

[KLang]

From the headlines earlier today on CNN, the rebels have tanks. Are they still considered civilians?

[nrc]

moderated

Talk about the events, give opinions on policies, call politicos names and things turn political in a hurry.

[nrc]

Fighter looks like a Mirage F1. Libya has a handful of those and the desert camo suggests that it's theirs.

[dando]

Talk about the events, give opinions on policies, call politicos names and things turn political in a hurry.

Fair enough. Let's just put it this way....even the French stepped up before we did. :saywhat: :irked:

America surrenders. :shakehead

Let's not let this become another Yugoslavia. :(

-Kevin

[Michaelhatesfans]

Fighter looks like a Mirage F1. Libya has a handful of those and the desert camo suggests that it's theirs.

I say Flogger

(not liking my link for some reason)

[nrc]

I'd be happy to see Gadhafi gone, along with every other despot in the world. But it really is hypocritical of the world community to dress this up as being all about "protecting civilians". The truth is that nobody wants to admit that it's about regime change.

The French, in particular, have been as big on doing business with bad actors as anyone and they're very gung-ho on this. They, and the rest of Europe, see North Africa as their sphere of influence and they know that the business climate there (ie, oil industry) would be a lot more comfortable without the old Colonel around.

[nrc]

I say Flogger

(not liking my link for some reason)

That's the consensus. The air inlets didn't look right to me, but you don't often see them at that angle. :gomer: Plus, they have a lot more MiG 23s than F1s.

[Gnam]

I say Flogger.

agree.

The French are flying Rafales and Mirage 2000?
The Pentagon says the French went in before the air defenses were attacked. dang.

Reports also say the French aircraft carrier Charles de Gaulle is to set sail on Sunday from Toulon on France's Mediterranean coast headed to Libya's coast.

[KLang]

I'd be happy to see Gadhafi gone, along with every other despot in the world. But it really is hypocritical of the world community to dress this up as being all about "protecting civilians". The truth is that nobody wants to admit that it's about regime change.

Exactly my beef as well. Plus they should have started a couple weeks ago.

[Insomniac]

Fair enough. Let's just put it this way....even the French stepped up before we did. :saywhat: :irked:

America surrenders. :shakehead

Let's not let this become another Yugoslavia. :(

-Kevin

The rest of the world should do something if they want it done. We shouldn't have to be the world police for everything on top of everything we already do for everyone. We led the charge into Iraq, who followed? And I don't mean a few troops from 100+ countries, I mean, who really had out backs? Saddam Hussein was more benign than Gaddafi?

[racer2c]

I'd rather go to war with china. I would.

[racer2c]

112 messages to gadufi.

[nrc]

Exactly my beef as well. Plus they should have started a couple weeks ago.

The rest of the world was hoping that if they stood around wringing their hands about it for long enough that we'd go all berzerk on the guy without them having to do any heavy lifting. When it became clear that our NATO pals weren't going to be able to get us in on board ala Yugoslavia they figured that they had to go the full UN route.

[nrc]

112 messages to gadufi.

Yeah, take that. We will not be dissuaded from our goal which is not entirely clear unless it requires ground troops which we definitely will not do. :shakehead

When are we going to start protecting the Iranian people from their government? Pretty sure that Neda girl was oppressed.

Bahrain? Yemen?

[Michaelhatesfans]

That's the consensus. The air inlets didn't look right to me, but you don't often see them at that angle. :gomer: Plus, they have a lot more MiG 23s than F1s.

I used to build a LOT of models. You get to know the silhouettes....:gomer:

[racer2c]

Bahrain? Yemen?

China? :)

[KLang]

Arab League: "Wait a minute, this isn't what we had in mind". :laugh:

BBC Story (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-12798568)


The head of the Arab League has criticised the bombardments.

His comments are significant because the Arab League's support for the no-fly zone was a key factor in getting UN Security Council backing for the resolution authorising the move.

"What is happening in Libya differs from the aim of imposing a no-fly zone, and what we want is the protection of civilians and not the bombardment of more civilians," said Arab League Secretary General Amr Moussa.

[Elmo T]

Arab League: "Wait a minute, this isn't what we had in mind". :laugh:

BBC Story (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-12798568)

Do they really let loose with 100+ missiles and ground attack aircraft without at least a wink and a nod from the Arab League? :rolleyes:

[Ankf00]

no qualms w/ lack of american activity, france, italy, and britain are the ones w/ serious libyan investments, let them deal with it

[G.]

I thought Qaddafi was now one of the "good" dictators. He renounced terra-ism, pretended to care about Pan-Am, and made nice with the US.

:confused:

Howzabout we get ONE good success story out of the area before we topple ALL of the gubmints? Do the rebellious forces have a long-term plan?



Might not be a popular position, but (I think) there are some areas of the world that just might be better off with a dictator for a few more decades.

[KLang]

Do they really let loose with 100+ missiles and ground attack aircraft without at least a wink and a nod from the Arab League? :rolleyes:

I suspect the statement was intended more for internal consumption. 'See what those nasty Westerners have done!'

[SteveH]

Well now that the no fly zone has been accomplished, we're done. Right?

[nrc]

Arab League: "Wait a minute, this isn't what we had in mind". :laugh:

BBC Story (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-12798568)

Now we're gonna pull out if the Arab League gets cold feet? :shakehead

[dando]

no qualms w/ lack of american activity, france, italy, and britain are the ones w/ serious libyan investments, let them deal with it

Srsly? :shakehead Stick your head in the sand, F00boy. :saywhat:

-Kevin

[pchall]

Well now that the no fly zone has been accomplished, we're done. Right?

How about six months of depleting Daffy Qaddafi's ground resources --taking out armor and artillery and giving the resistance militia Stingers to take out the choppers. The US is nowhere near finished with Libya.

[SteveH]

I should have added a ;) to my post. :D

[Ankf00]

Srsly? :shakehead Stick your head in the sand, F00boy. :saywhat:

-Kevin

stick my head in the sand about what? my thoughts are consistent, france italy and britain are capable of it, its their financial interests at risk, let them handle it.

and that's exactly how we're going about it.

so what do you wish to do regarding zimbabwe and burma? since we're in the business of crusading around the world while we have bigger issues to sort out at home apparently. any desire to solve the root cause to somalia's issues, have you?

[dando]

so what do you wish to do regarding zimbabwe and burma?

It's called NATO.

-Kevin

[Ankf00]

indeed, it is.

what part of Libya involves the strategic defense of a NATO nation?



btw, the Ivorians currently fleeing Abidjan under gunfire say "hi."

[G.]

indeed, it is.

what part of Libya involves the strategic defense of a NATO nation?




The black, oily stuff underneath Libya. Armed forces love that stuff.

[nrc]

stick my head in the sand about what? my thoughts are consistent, france italy and britain are capable of it, its their financial interests at risk, let them handle it.

and that's exactly how we're going about it.

Well, if you don't count the billions of dollars that we're likely to spend to enable our NATO allies to do their part.

[Ankf00]

true but it beats an iraq-like alternative where it's all us and only us. hopefully this is just initial missile strikes for our part and then the french and british, whose corporations are the ones profiting from libyan contracts, will be carrying the financial & operational burden.

BP and Petrofina's health is of 0 concern to me outside of BP Americas & their Gulf profitability

[Gnam]

The Pentagon briefings are very interesting. They say the rules of engagement are defensive only and require an imminent threat to civilians. To protect Benghazi, they destroyed Libyan air defenses and an advancing armor column.

But they have taken no action to end the conflict. The admiral at the briefing stated clearly that Qaddafi is not a target, they will not provide close air support to rebels, and gave no advice to Libyan army units who wish to avoid being attacked.

Without offensive action they'll endup creating a DMZ between East and West Libya that will have to be constantly patrolled.

[Gnam]

true but it beats an iraq-like alternative where it's all us and only us.

So far the count is 122 of 124 cruise missiles were American. The B2's came from Missouri. The F-15 and F-16s that destroyed the armor column were American. The satellite intel is probably American. The refueling tankers, the airlift support, the electroinc warfare and surveillance aircraft are all American. And the command ship the Coalition will use to direct activities is American.

Most importantly, all the decisions are American.
That won't change.

[Ankf00]

the initial stage is up to us, the latter stages will supposedly be french/british operational command, and hopefully french/british cash money

[nrc]

the initial stage is up to us, the latter stages will supposedly be french/british operational command, and hopefully french/british cash money

I hope that you're right. Unfortunately the current mission is likely to create a long term stalemate unless Qaddafi makes a blunder and opens the door for more decisive action. In that circumstance I wonder if the Euros have the resources to maintain that kind of effort.

[Michaelhatesfans]

The Eurocentric Spotters Guide

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-12785746

[Gnam]

wow. That Nimrod R1 belongs in a museum.


Even though the American planes are just as old, the R1 looks like it's from the end of WWII.

[NismoZ]

Let the French handle it!?:rofl::rofl: We're IT, baby. I just don't think some of us like being in that position. And, please, do not give Stingers to ANYone! Too many already unaccounted for.:shakehead

[Michaelhatesfans]

It must be so freaking awesome to be Swiss.

[Gnam]

It's not easy being Swiss.

Some of them have to race in the IRL. :(

http://img843.imageshack.us/img843/8924/simonadesilvestro.jpg

[Michaelhatesfans]

Yeah, but the chocolate is so damned good. Well, that, and they don't tie themselves up in knots about what to do with their troops.

[cameraman]

The Swiss Airforce wouldn't have been too much help anyway, they only operate Mon-Fri from 9 AM to 5 PM. Seriously

[datachicane]

Their knives are cool, although my Finnish friends tell me the steel is inferior.

Me, I pack a Leatherman, which by statute is issued to each Oregonian on his/her sixth birthday along with a plaid Pendleton shirt.

[Michaelhatesfans]

Me, I pack a Leatherman, which by statute is issued to each Oregonian on his/her sixth birthday along with a plaid Pendleton shirt.

:laugh: