Dallara presents the future of Open-Wheel* racing

[swift]

*=design may not contain open-wheels

you've waited 8 years for this...
http://www.indystar.com/article/20110510/SPORTS0107/110510010/

[cameraman]

They are rather strange looking things. The bastard child of an LMP2 and a GP2.

[Elmo T]

Up through photo #3 it didn't totally suck. Then I got to see the rear end. :yuck:

[JohnHKart]

I started thinking of the early 90s racing series Shelby Can Am when looking at those pics.


http://www.allpar.com/racing/pix/can-am.jpg

[cameraman]

Fixered

http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii35/Cynops/can-am.jpg

[Indy]

Yes, but that was legitimately innovative. This is just garbage.

Seriously, is it like some sort of special talent they have to get every single thing so goddamned wrong?

And I thought they wanted it to be more like a champ car. So where is the roll hoop? Why did they keep the lawn dart nose? This isn't something new, this is a continuation of the crapwagon theme.

Arrrrgggghhhhh. The stupid is sooooo painful to behold.

[Trevor Longman]

I'll be honest I actually don't hate the road course configuration. The oval version is ugly as hell but the road course version actually looks rather decent if you squint a bit!

[chop456]

They really are awful at everything, aren't they? :rofl:

[Twisty Bits]

Has that thing got a sleeper?

[Indy]

They really are awful at everything, aren't they? :rofl:

What are the odds that the dumbest freakshow losers on the face of the earth would own the single most powerful venue in a sport? And it happens to be the only sport I ever truly loved?

Jeebus is testing me. I just know it.

[opinionated ow]

Forward of the front wheels is ok. After that it gets steadily uglier

[Michaelhatesfans]

I see they've extended the big flat floor out past the bodywork - nice to see that they will still turn into kites when a bit of air gets under them.:saywhat:

[Andrew Longman]

What? No comments about the mirrors?

[Napoleon]

I started thinking of the early 90s racing series Shelby Can Am when looking at those pics.

That is the first thing that occured to me.

[Ed_Severson]

I kinda like the road course version -- front view I think it looks pretty sleek. Not a huge fan of the airbox, but it's not a deal breaker for me.

The oval configuration does not appeal much to me, but it won't be in use until Indy next year ... by that time the Dallara aero package will have evolved quite a bit from this, and there will be three other options as well. It'll be interesting to see where the manufacturers end up.

[stroker]

Why are we at all surprised by this? It's a government-funded car...

:shakehead

[Racing Truth]

I kinda like the road course version -- front view I think it looks pretty sleek. Not a huge fan of the airbox, but it's not a deal breaker for me.

The oval configuration does not appeal much to me, but it won't be in use until Indy next year ... by that time the Dallara aero package will have evolved quite a bit from this, and there will be three other options as well. It'll be interesting to see where the manufacturers end up.

Agreed completely. Everything from the faux-airbox up is great, IMHO. The basics, the nose, undertray, etc, are much improved. The backs on both are wider, maybe too wide if it were me designing them, but the bumpers might make this necessary.

That said, it all works for me on the RC car. Love that look.:thumbup: The sidepods on the oval car are kinda silly and make the back look even wider.

BUTTTT it must be emphasised that most of the issues that people have are aero CONCEPTS that can (and I kinda expect WILL) be improved on... by Dallara itself and the other mftrs. Cotman all but said this is NOT the final word on the aero package.

Not a fin fan either, but I think they're staying. Still not clear on WHY the airbox is needed, but Cotman seems emphatic, for now, on it.

If you wanted an updated '90's Reynard, too bad. Move on.

[gerhard911]

If you wanted an updated '90's Reynard, too bad. Move on.

Thanks for the advice, but I already have :p

[TrueBrit]

I agree with most of the comments here, the front looks okay-ish, the back is bloody awful, and what is the thinking with those floor boards extending out like that, just another creative way to shred your opponent's tyres?

Also, with the amount of downforce that rear bodywork looks like it could produce at anything over 50 mph, you won't be able to steer the front wheels 'cos they'll be off the ground...

Having recently encountered the crapwagons in person for the first time, my abiding concern is in getting someone to please fix the sound...I don't mind loud, but jeebus aitch on a bike those things are out of control...

[NismoZ]

Airbox? Maybe the Indy Dallara Chevy/Honda/Lotus will run NAs also but the shape has to be the same?:gomer: Or the scoop is to duct air through/to the rear wing and a little cockpit knobule can open and close it! Yeah, and what ABOUT those mirrors!? A kite you say? Gotta get up and OVER those catch fences. Causes too much damage. How many aero kits are there going to be? ALWAYS going to be one better than all the others! How many races before they all look alike? Are they gong to have names...like "here comes the Dallara Lotus Fairey Firefly!" Man, an upgraded '90s Reynard would be AWESOME! Better than anything since '03, THAT's fer certain sure! Still think Cotman wanted a turbo Super Atlantic of some sort. Swift, Mazda (Ford) Cooper Presents...send everyone else home!:thumbup:

[racer2c]

These cars are EXAMPLES!


That means they will probably be worse. :D

[Ed_Severson]

How many aero kits are there going to be? ALWAYS going to be one better than all the others! How many races before they all look alike?

The plan right now, as I understand it, is that there will be four options -- the Dallara kit, which everyone will receive when they purchase their cars, and kits from the three engine manufacturers, Lotus, Chevy, and Honda. Teams will be allowed to purchase only the kit provided by whatever engine manufacturer they're partnered with, so each team will have a maximum of two options -- Dallara/Lotus, Dallara/Chevy, or Dallara/Honda. No mix & match will be allowed.

At Indy, teams may switch back & forth between kits as they see fit until qualifying, and once they qualify in one aero package, they have to race in it. Beyond Indy, teams will have to declare at the beginning of each weekend which kit they intend to run, and will not be allowed to change at any point during a given event.

It's unclear how much the teams/manufacturers will be allowed to develop the kits once they've been introduced ... I suspect that is still in the process of being ironed out as the rulebook takes shape.

[Racing Truth]

Airbox? Maybe the Indy Dallara Chevy/Honda/Lotus will run NAs also but the shape has to be the same?:gomer: Or the scoop is to duct air through/to the rear wing and a little cockpit knobule can open and close it! Yeah, and what ABOUT those mirrors!? A kite you say? Gotta get up and OVER those catch fences. Causes too much damage. How many aero kits are there going to be? ALWAYS going to be one better than all the others! How many races before they all look alike? Are they gong to have names...like "here comes the Dallara Lotus Fairey Firefly!" Man, an upgraded '90s Reynard would be AWESOME! Better than anything since '03, THAT's fer certain sure! Still think Cotman wanted a turbo Super Atlantic of some sort. Swift, Mazda (Ford) Cooper Presents...send everyone else home!:thumbup:

Look, I too liked the 90's Reynards... in the 90's. I mean nothing says "rebirth" like an updated version of a car that was run 15 yrs. ago.:tony:

My point is that the sport has to accept SOME degree of change from the past if it wants to grow/be relevant, etc.

As for the aero kits (when they're allowed), it looks like AT LEAST three, if not more. That, combined w/ multiple engine mftrs., gets me interested.

r2c: Good point. It CAN be made worse. But, if nothing else, I'd be shocked if Honda, Chevy, etc. all make it worse.

[stroker]

...I'd be shocked if Honda, Chevy, etc. all make it worse.

It's the .1RL, so you can pretty well take to the bank that if there's a possibility of it being better or worse, it'll go worse...

[G.]

I agree with most of the comments here, the front looks okay-ish, the back is bloody awful, and what is the thinking with those floor boards extending out like that, just another creative way to shred your opponent's tyres?


http://munchcast.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/01/spork4001.jpg

[Racing Truth]

It's the .1RL, so you can pretty well take to the bank that if there's a possibility of it being better or worse, it'll go worse...

Look, I know I won't convince many here (and Barnhart's presence doesn't help), but IMHO, the current series leadership is lightyears beyond, certainly, the TG Era and even the CART/CC Era.

Why? B/c Bernard, for his faults (too gimmicky, I'll concede), gives a d@mn about the fans. That might be a first in this sport.

[SteveH]

spork :laugh:

Spork and Mindy nanu nanu

[stroker]

Look, I know I won't convince many here (and Barnhart's presence doesn't help), but IMHO, the current series leadership is lightyears beyond, certainly, the TG Era and even the CART/CC Era.

Why? B/c Bernard, for his faults (too gimmicky, I'll concede), gives a d@mn about the fans. That might be a first in this sport.

I'd argue that he can't possibly swim with a 50 lead weight (the IMS heirarchy) around his ankle. You argue that he's trying. I'll concede the point, but he's still gonna drown. Even if he doesn't, the old fans aren't coming back so all he's going to find when he finally hits the beach is sand...

[Ziggy]

Look, the biggest fault of the split (and there are many) is the severing of the bloodline on design.

We know that through the history of Motorsports on occasion there have been some pretty advanced thinkers when it came to "starting over." This was the IRL's chance to start anew, and attract fans. With this ponderous design they have stayed the course of their entire existence, which is alienation.

These cars are bad. There is nothing "sexy" about them. Even though these are mere mock up's, striving for Buck Rogers is not the answer. The machine is very truck like, and does not appear very nimble. It also warrants serious aero qualities the likes of which make insurance company executives stay awake at night.

Failure is the one constant with the "League."

More Americans
No Engine Leases
Level Playing Field
Oval Based Series

A simple set of rules and a smaller overall car would bring participation back. It's been done (and even at Indy) before.

[NismoZ]

Re updating: An updating of the 15 yr. old car in question would HAVE to be better by default because it was/is ALREADY better than the 9 yr. old vintage racer now in use. That's all I meant. If the main focus now is just dressing up old technology so it looks ...uh...cool...WTF is THAT!? Oooo, look at the new Indycar, it's COOL! I'd rather see Freddie Agabashian in a Cummins Diesel (hey, have you seen him in that new commercial!?) or Rufus in an STP turbine or a stock block turbo Buick or TWIN turbo Mazda IL4 or a Porsche hybrid or a freekin' Chevy Johnny Lightning Volt! ANYthing except the sleight-of-hand we are now being dealt. Well, some of us anyway, because I opted out waaaay back in those '90s that were mentioned.

[Andrew Longman]

Nismo, I feel your pain.

But I think that sort of thing is gone from all of motorsport. Look at F1.

I think I have to decide if I am going to just watch old races on Youtube and cherish the past or ALSO try to enjoy a day at the races today. Managed competition is, I guess, an economic, practical, and actual fact in all motorsport.

This car has a Hot Wheels design quality I don't like. The fin and airbox seem to serve only as signage space. Form doesn't seem to follow competitive function. Without the kits and competitive development among kits it is just not that interesting. I will never have the passion I had EVERY year up until about 2001 for the competition in all aspects of the sport in CART.

BUT, it is better than the car of tomorrow. This version of the IRL is better than NASCAR. If I am going to watch racing I guess I will be watching some of this. Sigh. At least I know it won't continue to get worse. It think.

[rosawendel]

I'm going to make a slightly different argument: Why present the future of your series-the very vehicle (in object and metaphor) to take the IRL to the next level - with crappy cloudy day photos using (for all intents and purposes) a cyclone fence as your background. Really? That's trying? That's making an effort? You couldn't hire someone who had at least enough common sense to wait until it was sunny out and had some sense if composition instead of using bob from accounting with a point and shoot?

Those shots are horrible. The empty sears are prophetic.

[SteveH]

By default the IRL became a spec series when the Panoz was no longer competitive. By design, it will be so in the future. And this is what the future will be? Seriously, I would have found the Deltawing a much more interesting and compelling chassis than these retreads.

[Chief]

It's sickening. The eagerness to move from the IRL failures at warp speed is sacrificing the future for the sport.

I totally agree with Ziggy...I almost want them to scrap the new car and just open the rules to allow anything from the past 15 years in and have at it. Let the natural selection process weed out the riff-raff and re-engage true evolution. THEN, move forward with the future of the sport.

This is like a shotgun start by blowing off your foot.

[Hard Driver]

What? No comments about the mirrors?

Those mirrors will never work....

[racer2c]

Stating the obvious here but, the problem with the areokits is that as soon as one kit becomes apparently faster, everyone will pick that kit, result = back to a spec series. If they design the kits not to have an on track advantage, and its purely aesthetics, then its still a spec chassis series, result = the race car equivalent of paper dolls.

What they need to concentrate on is increasing horsepower so that the drivers have the headroom to push. That will separate the talent from Danicka.
I'd rather ride a thoroughbred wearing an ugly dress, than a pig wearing an ugly dress.

[Ed_Severson]

Stating the obvious here but, the problem with the areokits is that as soon as one kit becomes apparently faster, everyone will pick that kit, result = back to a spec series.

Nope. At least for 2012, the rules will specifically prevent that.

[racer2c]

Nope. At least for 2012, the rules will specifically prevent that.

So the one you pick you're stuck with all year? No wonder the owners are balking. How will they regulate preseason testing? Its not going to be hard to learn which kit gives the most benefit, so they all pick that one. I thought the kits were delayed until '13 anyway?

[Ed_Severson]

So the one you pick you're stuck with all year? No wonder the owners are balking. How will they regulate preseason testing? Its not going to be hard to learn which kit gives the most benefit, so they all pick that one. I thought the kits were delayed until '13 anyway?

I explained this upthread already, but the teams don't get to choose from amongst all 4 options. Everyone gets the Dallara; beyond that, Chevy teams can also purchase the Chevy kit, Honda teams can get the Honda kit, and Lotus teams can get the Lotus kit. That's it. If you're running a Honda engine, you can't use the Chevy or Lotus aero package, at least not next year.

So, it's not as simple as just testing all four and picking the one you think is best. Lotus might have the best engine and the worst aero package, or vice versa. Is it a bit contrived? Sure, but it introduces some competition and does at least a little bit to reign in costs.

The decision on delaying the aero kits until 2013 hasn't been made yet, but I don't think it will be pushed back. The team owners are all crying that it will be too expensive in 2012, which is irrelevant because none of them will be forced to spend any money beyond the Dallara kit whether the option exists or not. There's no reason not to introduce them immediately.

[NismoZ]

Ok, Ed...no doubt you know a lot more about this than I do so let me drop my wise ass attitude for now and ask a couple of questions. The teams, ALL of them, want to delay the introduction of multiple aero kits and have everyone use the Dallara kit to begin with, citing the desire for a level playing field AND saving on the added expense. Really? At $75,000 those kits are dirt cheap so that can't be a serious reason to not want them. Reading where these kits will be provided by the ENGINE manufacturers? That seems strange. Who WOULDN'T want the Dallara kit to start?! No, the real worry is one kit, as already mentioned by 2c and me, will end up being superior and teams want to be assured they won't be relegated to inferiority even IF they aren't being outspent. Of course "the fans" want to see all the variety other people's money can buy because it'll be COOL. SO...understanding the new League, what decision will they make? Can't have a repeat of the old Reynard/Renske/Lola, road vs oval choices from the "good" old days...that WAS too costly. I clearly understand the teams trepidation over the effectiveness and equality of three different engine manufacturers ideas for what MUST be UNequal aero design kits. Which comes first, engine choice or kit choice...you know, the old "combination" that works best!? I'd say wait 'til Penske makes his choice, then do THAT!

[racer2c]

I explained this upthread already, but the teams don't get to choose from amongst all 4 options. Everyone gets the Dallara; beyond that, Chevy teams can also purchase the Chevy kit, Honda teams can get the Honda kit, and Lotus teams can get the Lotus kit. That's it. If you're running a Honda engine, you can't use the Chevy or Lotus aero package, at least not next year.

So, it's not as simple as just testing all four and picking the one you think is best. Lotus might have the best engine and the worst aero package, or vice versa. Is it a bit contrived? Sure, but it introduces some competition and does at least a little bit to reign in costs.

The decision on delaying the aero kits until 2013 hasn't been made yet, but I don't think it will be pushed back. The team owners are all crying that it will be too expensive in 2012, which is irrelevant because none of them will be forced to spend any money beyond the Dallara kit whether the option exists or not. There's no reason not to introduce them immediately.

Thanks for the re-hash, missed it. According to RM, "Cotman's original thought was to let a team change packages once.". Not sure if that is still on the table. Sounds like the whole thing is still very fluid.
I also see questions about what happens when you destroy all of your third party kits, will you be allowed to run the default Dallara (which will work with any engine combo).

[NismoZ]

Oops...I'm really slow. Hadn't read the previous two posts, but the new "rules" seem to put teams in a real crapshoot situation. To start a whole new thought...what will be the difference between the three engines? All Ilmors with different names on the valve covers? If that is the case then the choice of aero kit is paramount and the controversy over their introduction becomes understandable.

[Ed_Severson]

First things first -- no need to drop the wise-ass attitude. I haven't forgotten where we are. Everyone here -- including me -- carries some skepticism, as they should. Wise-ass it up, no harm done. :)

My take on the team owners' gripe is this -- these guys, frankly, have gotten a bit soft. They've hardly bought anything new in a decade. Now, having said that, each kit is $70k, so supposing you're running a 2-car team with spares for each, and bearing in mind that you have to buy road course and oval kits, that's $560k to invest in a second aero option. Not an insignificant amount of money, but not the biggest expenditure they'll face. And again, it's money they can completely opt out of spending ... they'll have the Dallara kit no matter what, and can run the entire season in Dallara trim if budget necessitates it.

It's an economic complaint, but I think it's a pointless one. Spend the money or don't ... it's your choice. Your preference for not spending it should not preclude anyone else from having the option. Oddly enough, Ganassi seems to be the one team owner who thinks this way -- all the others, including Penske, have griped about it for various reasons. And the desire for a level playing field is just ridiculous -- spec racing hurts the small teams, not the big ones.

As far as what the ultimate decision will be, I really think this will be a spot where IndyCar holds firm and introduces the kits for 2012. Tony Cotman certainly feels very strongly that that's the right course; Randy Bernard hasn't been as vocal but he seems to believe that too. And from an economic viewpoint, that's what most of their fans want, and that was a big selling point for getting Lotus & Chevy involved and keeping Honda involved. I am still far from convinced that Randy Bernard really gets it, but he is asking a lot of the right questions from the fans and listening to the answers, and he definitely seems to understand that he can't pull the rug out from under Honda, Lotus, and Chevy. This is what they sold to the manufacturers -- they have to deliver, and I think they will.

I have no idea what the timeline is for teams to make decisions on equipment next year. About all I can tell you is that the final Dallara aero package will be tested in the August/September neighborhood, and all other aero packages won't be introduced until May 2012 at the earliest. So I suspect team owners are going to have to make their choices based primarily on the strength of the engine and some very preliminary aero numbers, praying that the Dallara kit is pretty good regardless of what else happens so they have some hope of being competitive if the engine manufacturer they sign with makes a dog of an aero package.

[Ed_Severson]

Teams can always run the Dallara package, but I don't think they'll be allowed to switch from a manufacturer package to the Dallara in the middle of the weekend. The latest from Tony Cotman is that that would not be allowed -- there may be some compromise found in a "we're all out of parts" situation, but more likely the teams will borrow from each other as necessary.

The bigger sticking point, I think, and the one big problem with the backend design on the concept cars, is that the entire rear wing/end fence/attenuator/tire barrier is one assembly. Closing off rear access to the rear wheels to prevent wheel-to-wheel ramping is an admirable idea, but I expect some unintended consequences. More aggressive driving, more nose-to-tail contact, and now you have more damaged rear wing assemblies, which are bigger and costlier to replace than they were before.

[Andrew Longman]

I think too that there is nothing to stop a team or kit manufacturer from developing the kit in-season. If I am, say, Lotus, there is nothing to stop me from improving my kit with this or that do-dad or even overhaul mid season if I want to keep my customers next year.

At least I hope that is the case.

Listening to RP the other night, he didn't say it but I heard it, he is concerned about "data". If he doesn't get his kit until January he only has so much time for windtunnel testing before May. His advantage is money and engineering talent and he wants the time to use that advantage. He wants to show up at Indy with the data and engineering to have a very good chance of winning.

He does not want the field leveled so much that he has little better chance than Hemelgarn.

Ganassi, also may be thinking that all things being equal RP might have an advantage with his Chevy engines. If true the Chip will want a chance to regain the advantage with a better areo kit.

OK. So it is slightly interesting. :gomer:

[racer2c]

The latest from Tony ...

So he is calling the shots again?

[G.]

So he is calling the shots again?

Other Tony. Cotman.

[racer2c]

Other Tony. Cotman.

Whew! I know its coming, but still. :)

[Racing Truth]

It's sickening. The eagerness to move from the IRL failures at warp speed is sacrificing the future for the sport.

I totally agree with Ziggy...I almost want them to scrap the new car and just open the rules to allow anything from the past 15 years in and have at it. Let the natural selection process weed out the riff-raff and re-engage true evolution. THEN, move forward with the future of the sport.

This is like a shotgun start by blowing off your foot.

Sorry, but ALL motorsports has changed since 1995. In the US, yes, I primarily blame one man (with supporting roles by car owners) for this, but, err, I'm kinda over it. Other than LMS, all high-level motorsports is much more managed than ever before.

Hey, I wish OW could do this, but it's in absolutely no position to do so, period. The past may never die, but it need not supercede the present and future. And, IMHO, some here wouldn't be happy until a slightly updated version of CART in the 90's returns. One, I don't know, regardless of who's in charge, if that's what the sport needs right now (pretty sure it isn't, IMHO). Two, I know it's not happening. And given the alternatives, I'm OK with that

[Racing Truth]

Thanks for the re-hash, missed it. According to RM, "Cotman's original thought was to let a team change packages once.". Not sure if that is still on the table. Sounds like the whole thing is still very fluid.
I also see questions about what happens when you destroy all of your third party kits, will you be allowed to run the default Dallara (which will work with any engine combo).

By definition, everyone will be able to switch once in 2012 (if the owners don't get their way). Everyone starts on Dallara. Then, come Indy, the others are introduced. That's when, if teams wish to, they can switch.

Basically, teams will have, theoretically, two kit options: Dallara and their engine builder (Honda, Chevy, Lotus). If other orgs. get in on the aero kits, they could become options, esp. for truly independent teams.

On the second part, good question. Initially, I'd hope so.

EDIT: Of course, this question of destroyed kits is particularly relevant to EJ Viso.:gomer:

[NismoZ]

Help me out on the engines. What is a "Lotus" Indy engine? Lotus won't actually build or maintain it, will they? What is Chevy spending my tax $$ on and who gets it? Has the Honda deal with IndyCar changed much? What if nobody wants a Chevy? Could we see a field of 28 Hondas at Indy? Do all the engines come to the Speedway in the same hauler? Is Penske running the Indy engine program?:D

[Chief]

Sorry, but ALL motorsports has changed since 1995. In the US, yes, I primarily blame one man (with supporting roles by car owners) for this, but, err, I'm kinda over it. Other than LMS, all high-level motorsports is much more managed than ever before.

Hey, I wish OW could do this, but it's in absolutely no position to do so, period. The past may never die, but it need not supercede the present and future. And, IMHO, some here wouldn't be happy until a slightly updated version of CART in the 90's returns. One, I don't know, regardless of who's in charge, if that's what the sport needs right now (pretty sure it isn't, IMHO). Two, I know it's not happening. And given the alternatives, I'm OK with that
EVERYTHING since 2008 has been BUNGLED by the buffoons at 16th and Georgetown. Sorry, I think they are a bunch of half-assed goofballs that have squandered every opportunity ever presented to them. And, they're blowing this one as well.

It's funny but in their own way, the Hulman's have in 2011 returned the sport to 1995...and it's not working. This new car is a crap shoot because if it doesn't capture the interest of the fan, what's left? More stunts? Then what?

Whether I or you or us got on "the split's over" bus and went on with life, the fact remains this resurrection left the bus station without too many aboard. And that's how they want it apparently.

[Indy]

Racing Truth, reconciliation and getting on with life is all well and good, but it doesn't change their basic problem: the drivers and the cars and the engines suck, so the racing sucks. Simple as that. They are trying to "market" their stinky fart into Eau de Cologne. The NASCAR fan is that stupid. The open wheel fan is not.

I personally have moved on from the bitterness, but until they do something to show that they believe in the steak instead of the sizzle, my dollars go elsewhere.

[Ed_Severson]

I think saying the drivers suck is pretty off-target. There are about a dozen regulars who are pretty good, another four or five that have talent but need to work on racecraft, and several first or second year guys/gals that have a lot of potential. The field's not exactly full of Tyce Carlsons and Jimmy Kites anymore.

[Ziggy]

What has been failed to mention is the fact that the aero kit will directly effect the reputation of the engine, i.e., if the kit is not up to the task it will reflect on the manufacturer of the engine.

It is not something they want associated, as they have no control if they don't get it right. The $75,000 dollar kit is laughable. There is no way in God's Creation that the kit can be produced for this little amount of cash. Talk to any current Earl car owner and ask him about the aero bits for the current crapwagon........ The price bantered around to the media and what they actually cost are two vastly different sums.

Laughable, just as the different "manufactures."

and on another note... There was nothing wrong with the sport in 1995. I keep seeing this mentioned these past six months. The sport of Open Wheel Racing was in it's Zenith. Much like the O.J. scenario, if folks on the Internet keep reading that the sport was in trouble in 1995 then it must be a fact.

The expense incurred in 1995 was huge, but the sponsors were getting what they wanted. Even in this clipped economy of 2011 NASCAR budgets are still hella strong.

[chop456]

Fiberglass. The wave of the future. :tony:

[Napoleon]

and on another note... There was nothing wrong with the sport in 1995. I keep seeing this mentioned these past six months. The sport of Open Wheel Racing was in it's Zenith. Much like the O.J. scenario, if folks on the Internet keep reading that the sport was in trouble in 1995 then it must be a fact.

That is what has come to be called in on-line political discussions a "Zombie Lie" a term I just love since it says it all.

Are people really saying that? CART right after the split was some of the greatest formula car racing ever, and certainly the best in US history. Great drivers, great cars, great venues, and great manufacturer participation.

[Napoleon]

Fiberglass. The wave of the future. :tony:

http://www.glennmosier.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/graduate-plastics1.jpg

[Indy]

I think saying the drivers suck is pretty off-target. There are about a dozen regulars who are pretty good, another four or five that have talent but need to work on racecraft, and several first or second year guys/gals that have a lot of potential. The field's not exactly full of Tyce Carlsons and Jimmy Kites anymore.

I suppose you are right, but if there are some who are potentially great they will never get to realize it because they have no occasion to which they can rise. Shouldn't Dario be ranked up there with Zanardi and the Unsers? But he is a big yawn, having won (I can't remember how many) championships and (I can't remember how many) 500's.

I just don't think the fans are going to respond to anything less than greatness, and we will never see that if innovation is not allowed. A car your grandmother can drive does not a great driver make.

[Ed_Severson]

Fair enough. I don't think the current car is as easy to drive as many people think, but it certainly is not as difficult as it could (or should, IMO) be. Hopefully the new equipment in 2012 will get us closer to the level of difficulty we saw in the 90's and early 2000's. I think that's about where the sport needs to be, long term, to make it really appealing and allow the drivers to showcase their ability.

[Racing Truth]

Forgive me, but i'll use three posts to respond here.


EVERYTHING since 2008 has been BUNGLED by the buffoons at 16th and Georgetown. Sorry, I think they are a bunch of half-assed goofballs that have squandered every opportunity ever presented to them. And, they're blowing this one as well.

It's funny but in their own way, the Hulman's have in 2011 returned the sport to 1995...and it's not working. This new car is a crap shoot because if it doesn't capture the interest of the fan, what's left? More stunts? Then what?

Whether I or you or us got on "the split's over" bus and went on with life, the fact remains this resurrection left the bus station without too many aboard. And that's how they want it apparently.

One, picking 2008 as your start date is unfair here. Yes, from '08 until Bernard came aboard, the incompetence/dithering continued. A bad TV deal was signed and the new car delayed.

Bernard can't undo the TV deal, and as soon as he came aboard, work began on the new car. He's brought back Milwaukee AND Loudon (Vegas, too, FWIW), and might just get Phoenix back (TBD, I'll admit). There are THREE engine mfts. for '12, with perhaps more in '13. Ditto aero kits. And you call that a FAIL? Really?:confused:

Has he been w/o mistakes? H=ll no. The Hot Wheels Indy thing is STUPID. And I'm agnostic on the Vegas thing. But, all told, he's listening to fans and TRYING to grow the thing, something that won't happen overnight.

Oh, and what if the new car "doesn't work?" I don't know, what if, in time (and combined w/ other factors), it DOES, a possibility you seem to discount out of hand? Either way, can it hurt?

[Racing Truth]

I suppose you are right, but if there are some who are potentially great they will never get to realize it because they have no occasion to which they can rise. Shouldn't Dario be ranked up there with Zanardi and the Unsers? But he is a big yawn, having won (I can't remember how many) championships and (I can't remember how many) 500's.

I just don't think the fans are going to respond to anything less than greatness, and we will never see that if innovation is not allowed. A car your grandmother can drive does not a great driver make.

I'm mostly w/ Severson here. Take out the 1.5 milers, and "easy" isn't a fair word to use. Are they "easier" to drive than they ought to be? Yes, but that doesn't mean there's little skill needed.

As for greatness, sorry, but Dario just destroyed a decent field at Indy last yr. Only Will Power was even close to him. To me, THAT was still a great performance, recognition aside.

Bernard cannot fix 15 yrs. of wrongs overnight. Expecting great OW drivers of today to be recognized like they were 20 yrs. ago is unrealistic in the extreme. It's too bad, mind you, but the truth.

[Racing Truth]

What has been failed to mention is the fact that the aero kit will directly effect the reputation of the engine, i.e., if the kit is not up to the task it will reflect on the manufacturer of the engine.

It is not something they want associated, as they have no control if they don't get it right. The $75,000 dollar kit is laughable. There is no way in God's Creation that the kit can be produced for this little amount of cash. Talk to any current Earl car owner and ask him about the aero bits for the current crapwagon........ The price bantered around to the media and what they actually cost are two vastly different sums.

Laughable, just as the different "manufactures."

and on another note... There was nothing wrong with the sport in 1995. I keep seeing this mentioned these past six months. The sport of Open Wheel Racing was in it's Zenith. Much like the O.J. scenario, if folks on the Internet keep reading that the sport was in trouble in 1995 then it must be a fact.

The expense incurred in 1995 was huge, but the sponsors were getting what they wanted. Even in this clipped economy of 2011 NASCAR budgets are still hella strong.

Skepticism is ABSOLUTELY warranted on the aero $. We shall see, but they'll have to find ways to get around the $ number, which is supposed to be firm.

As to the second part, that's not me making that argument. I know CART was just fine in '95. My point is simply this: That was 1995. This is 2011. A lot has changed since then, and 1995 isn't walking through that door, period.

Look, I'm 27 yrs. old; been a fan for over half my existence. That's still a short time when compared to many here who've followed the sport for, oh, 30 or more years, and saw the "glory years." I totally understand not accepting the current product; were I in their shoes, I'd feel the same.

But I hope to have many yrs. of fandom left, so I'll be d@mned if I'm going to let the fact that it's not what it was ruin it for me. I watch every F1 race (live or DVR), but in the end, it will never engage me like American OW can and does. Maybe I'm the idiot for that, but so be it.

The present and future beckon. I hope to see what it offers.

[opinionated ow]

i think they have to have that avriety and development from the beginning. If they say oh next year it'll end up going the way of champ car chassis competition, twin turbos etc...promised but never delivered

[Ziggy]

The cars are not easy to drive?

Take a good look at the starting fields post split. There are some real lulu's in there. I can not remember, and I have been following this sport since 1967 and read more than a few books, when a rookie driver, at Indianapolis no less, is taking part in his first EVER big car race.

sorry boys, this never happened with such regularity.

Dick Simon brought on a few pay to drive guys, as did Foyt (go figure, stalwarts of the split) But no less a driver than Carrol Shelby was sent home due to no "prior experience." We wont even get into Clark and Piquet taking an exacting rookie test. (they used to be quite a bit longer)

In the past 16 years you have had to break out the magnifying glass and search the south end of the results in the lower formula's to have a chance of finding a few of these wankers. Marty Roth, George Mack, Milka Dunno, for that matter Marco Andretti, who the **** did he beat to merit the hoopla?

Dario can grow the win column all he wants. He will never, in my estimation, stack up against the likes of Andretti, Bobby Unser or even Jim Vasser. The constant reminder of the season in which he went into Fontana tied for a Championship is but a distant memory. What folks fail to forget is that Montoya flat kicked everyone's ass and his finishing record is what allowed Dario to even have a chance. Not exactly a resume builder but with this modern audience I guess everyone fails to remember the details.

The IRL sucks. The could not hit their ass with a bass fiddle.

[RTKar]

Fixered

http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii35/Cynops/can-am.jpg


The new earl sled is reminiscent of it's ancestor, the Smokey Yunnick Hurst Shifter Special.

They can't hit their arse with both hands. All they had to do was adopt the DP01.


Since most of the earl are ride buyers anyway, might as well capitalize on the opportunity and add a second cockpit like motorcycle sidecar racing for a paying customer

[Chief]

One, picking 2008 as your start date is unfair here. Yes, from '08 until Bernard came aboard, the incompetence/dithering continued. A bad TV deal was signed and the new car delayed.
UNFAIR? If there was one thing this sport needed then (and now) is a change in perception in the minds of the fans and sponsors. I use 2008 as the "fresh" start point for the sport because of the merger of two combatant factions, the IRL and CART/CCWS remnants. That was the time for Tony George step down, that was the time to build equity in a name change, that was the time to renegotiate for TV rights....everything. Instead, there was no splash of interest from anyone as it was still the IRL, and all the changes since have been rolled out with the urgency of molasses in the coldest winter ever.

Randy's doing a decent job, but I don't think you even realize the smoldering crater that was left from it all. So, all the fluff that seems like progress is just that, FLUFF. Under that is the IRL, it's 9 year old chassis and the perception by the fans that nothing really has changed.

So, when I analyze a new spec car and faux manufacturer support I question if they can pull it off. History is on MY side and I suspect the missing fanbase from the regression of the sport since 1996 feels the same way.

[SurfaceUnits]

Help me out on the engines. What is a \"Lotus\" Indy engine? Lotus won\'t actually build or maintain it, will they? What is Chevy spending my tax $$ on and who gets it? Has the Honda deal with IndyCar changed much? What if nobody wants a Chevy? Could we see a field of 28 Hondas at Indy? Do all the engines come to the Speedway in the same hauler? Is Penske running the Indy engine program?:D

somewhere I read that John Judd was building the Lotus moter and not Cosworth. penske ilmor is getting all your Government Moters tax dollars and honda had to accept a decrease in the moter size from 2.4 to 2.2 to satisfy penske

[NismoZ]

The race is on! Honda chooses Ganassi. Shocking. How many can do the same? Any limit on how many teams can be supplied by one manufacturer? I think they should adopt an 11-11-11 rule for Indy and have the Speedway decide who gets what. Social justice!:tony: