Oslo, Norway

[G.]

Damn. :(

At a ****ing youth camp. Bastard. Over 90.


I wish Norway well.

Times article (http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/25/world/europe/25oslo.html?hp)

[dando]

I would have killed that bastard with my thumbs. And he walks after 25 years max?!? :flame: :mad: x11 :saywhat:

-Kevin

[stroker]

I was pleased that the OC crowd didn't leap to conclusions on the situation unlike a lot of boards. There is something distinctly fishy about the whole thing and I have a feeling the perp is just one thread from a very, very large ball of yarn.

May God help the families and survivors.

[nrc]

I don't know. Seems like he has a lot in common with numerous other lone zealots bent on murder. Unfortunately he was among the more effective.

Thoughts and prayers to our friends in Norway.

[Gnam]

:(


One guy? That is frightening.

[cameraman]

Usually the bat **** crazy people range between inept and abjectly stupid.
This is what happens when crazy & smart mix.:(

I really wonder about the people who are criticizing the Norwegian police because they were unable to rapidly deploy a swat team to an island in the middle of BFE.:shakehead Turns out their police don't have helicopters capable of inserting forces into a combat zone or have ready access to landing craft.:saywhat: Somehow I really doubt that the Salt Lake police would be able to do much better.

[indyfan31]

Usually the bat **** crazy people range between inept and abjectly stupid.
This is what happens when crazy & smart mix.:(

I really wonder about the people who are criticizing the Norwegian police because they were unable to rapidly deploy a swat team to an island in the middle of BFE.:shakehead Turns out their police don't have helicopters capable of inserting forces into a combat zone or have ready access to landing craft.:saywhat: Somehow I really doubt that the Salt Lake police would be able to do much better.

The island is in lake and only about 600 yards off the shore. It took an HOUR for police to arrive at the scene. How can people not criticize it? The cops commandeered a boat, which they overloaded and almost sank. The anti-terror unit's only available helicopter was 35 miles away from where they're based. What kind of planning is that? A news helicopter was on scene before police.

[indyfan31]

From the AP story (http://www.grandforksherald.com/event/article/id/210853/):


Police have acknowledged that they took 90 minutes to reach Utoya island. They weren't able to deploy a helicopter because the entire crew had been sent on vacation. Victims who called emergency services from the midst of the massacre reported being told to stay off the line because authorities were dealing with the Oslo bombing.

[cameraman]

The crew that was on vacation was the crew of a small surveillance helicopter that isn't capable of inserting people even if it was available. Does your local police force have a helicopter available 24/7 that is capable of inserting half a dozen fully armed police? The answer is no, only the US military flies birds like that. If you think your local National Guard base could spool up a Black Hawk and get it to wherever your local swat team is waiting and then transport them to some forested little island with no intel and no earthly clue of possible landing sites within 90 minutes you are nuts.

The Norwegian police have never had any need for anything even remotely paramilitary in their modern history. To criticize them for not having a highly mobile, combat trained antiterrorism squad with a full array of air and sea transport maintained on a 24/365 alert status is ridiculous.

[Andrew Longman]

Gotta agree with the camera guy.

Only in America and really only post 9/11 Homeland Security Pork Spending does a police force have anything like that kind of response capability. (sorry but my little sleepy town did just fine with two 15 yr old Chevy cop cars -- now we have five fully loaded cars including three Crown Vics, a SUV and stealth cruiser paid for with HS Funds -- We don't even have five cops to drive them.)

And Norway has never had a need. Unlike America people are generally more civil and less armed.

[Gnam]

Sounds like there were no local police available. Everyone had to come from Oslo.

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5hcyWFiNvuVOclvGu4witsCUzzoJg?docId=a9ea35e71 dc54756aeb3256cd34a2be9

[racer2c]

Sounds like there were no local police available. Everyone had to come from Oslo.

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5hcyWFiNvuVOclvGu4witsCUzzoJg?docId=a9ea35e71 dc54756aeb3256cd34a2be9

From the linked article, evidently there was a "tiny local police department". They had the rigid inflatable boat. Why they didn't dispatch to the island at first notice is the question I haven't seen answered as of yet.

"So they drove, then waited for the tiny local police department to scramble its lone boat, a small rigid inflatable craft. All the while, shooting and screams could be heard from Utoya Island only 600 meters (yards) away."

[cameraman]

Look up Utoya Island Norway on Google maps. The island is in a lake, there would have to be a police boat assigned to that lake, one of 50,000 lakes in Norway. The only town on the lake is Sundvollen, population 801, what kind of police force would a town that size have? There is a single two lane blacktop that connects to Oslo but it isn't anything like a quick drive.

[racer2c]

Look up Utoya Island Norway on Google maps. The island is in a lake, there would have to be a police boat assigned to that lake, one of 50,000 lakes in Norway. The only town on the lake is Sundvollen, population 801, what kind of police force would a town that size have? There is a single two lane blacktop that connects to Oslo but it isn't anything like a quick drive.

What part of "tiny local police department" don't you understand? ;)

I don't care if its Gomer Pyle with a hunting rifle and a John boat...row over there and shoot the *&^^&%#(*##@#.

The latest articles I've read are reporting it was more like 90 minutes, not 60. I could drive across the the whole damn country in that time...which is pretty much what they did.

there is nothing wrong with the people of Norway to question the emergency preparedness systems no matter how logistically unfeasible to those observing from 5000 miles away it might seem.

[Gnam]

The article says the murdering bastard surrendered at the first sign of the police and that his plan all along was to give himself up without a fight. I wonder though if he would have taken his chances against a single policeman and only surrendered when the odds were decidedly against him.

I can only imagine standing on that far shoreline only being able to listen instead of act, but that's the fog of war. Attack now against an enemy of unknown number and strength or wait for reinforcements to arrive before committing your forces.

Airplanes, federal buildings, skyscrapers, water supplies, football games...never thought a kids' campground would be a target.

[stroker]

Airplanes, federal buildings, skyscrapers, water supplies, football games...never thought a kids' campground would be a target.

Well, I'd say that this situation pretty well makes it clear that anyone in a position of responsibility had better be ready for anything to be a target in the future.

Don't worry, we'll pay for it.... :saywhat:

[nrc]

I'll leave criticism of the response to the Norwegians, but Columbus has six (count 'em, six) helicopters capable of carrying four passengers and a pilot. I'm pretty sure that the mayor makes them fly low over Alum Creek reservoir on weekends playing "Ride of the Valkyries".

[indyfan31]

The Norwegian police have never had any need for anything even remotely paramilitary in their modern history. To criticize them for not having a highly mobile, combat trained antiterrorism squad with a full array of air and sea transport maintained on a 24/365 alert status is ridiculous.

The ridiculous part is that they DO have an anti-terrorism squad but no way to transport them at a moments notice. Make all the excuses you want but their government, whether national or local, dropped the ball.

[cameraman]

I'll leave criticism of the response to the Norwegians, but Columbus has six (count 'em, six) helicopters capable of carrying four passengers and a pilot. I'm pretty sure that the mayor makes them fly low over Alum Creek reservoir on weekends playing "Ride of the Valkyries".

The entire state of Utah has exactly none, of any size or configuration. No fixed wing aircraft either.

[Elmo T]

Read a detailed account this AM of the planning and research this guy completed. Unbelievable. :shakehead

While I am not buying the part where he was part of a larger group, he is definitely not your run of the mill wacko.

[Andrew Longman]

The entire state of Utah has exactly none, of any size or configuration. No fixed wing aircraft either.NJ has several. Our governor likes to fly them. Maybe you heard. They also have about a half dozen they are trying to sell. They are offering a deal if you are interested. http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/2011/07/nj_state_police_look_to_sell_a.html

And my little town of 1100 has a boat too. But at least the town is on the river. :gomer:

[Gnam]

Maybe Jersey should cold call Oslo.

Hey, wanna buy a helichopper. For you, half price.

4_VtAhaxl8A

(* warning: only watch the first 90 seconds)
The rest of the video is a waste of bandwidth.

[cameraman]

Interesting. Utah has plenty of medivac helos and planes but they are not owned or operated by the government. The University of Utah's AirMed gets its aircraft from Air Methods and Intermountain Life Flight operates their own aircraft.

Utah is covered by:

AirMed
1 Bell 430 helicopter
3 Bell 407 helicopters
2 Pilatus PC-12 turboprops (one of the less aesthetically pleasing aircraft out there)

Life Flight
2 Augusta A109 K2 helicopters
2 Bell 407 helicopters
3 Beechcraft B200 King Air turboprops

The Augustas are rigged and certified for high altitude hoist operations. They are the only FAA certified civilian hoist operators in the nation.

The governor rides in a Suburban.

[Elmo T]

We have medical helicopters all over the place. As I type this, the Hospital of the University of PA alone has 6 helos on status, Jefferson Hospital has 2, Lehigh Valley Hospital has 4, Hershey has 2, and Geisinger has 5. These are covering the central, south central, and south eastern PA.

Police copters are another story. Only recently did Philly get one (post 9/11 grant money). The PA State Police have about 8 helos - though their availability varies greatly.

Maryland seems to be the aviation king for the PD. Their State Police have 12 Dauphins - but they also are the primary medevac provider for much of the state.

The reality is it takes time to get these resources - even in the best of circumstances. The ability to adjust to dynamic situations (and employ some common sense) is something that all agencies are trying to address. But there can be a fair amount of bureaucracy to wade through as well.

My airport has a Civil Air Patrol unit. If we needed their services, we must first call the County Emergency Management Office, they in turn call the State. The State goes through their channels with the Air Force to assign a mission number. Only then can they launch their aircraft.

[dando]

I'll leave criticism of the response to the Norwegians, but Columbus has six (count 'em, six) helicopters capable of carrying four passengers and a pilot. I'm pretty sure that the mayor makes them fly low over Alum Creek reservoir on weekends playing "Ride of the Valkyries".

Silly...Coleman has them fly down the Scioto along the Scioto Mile and then land in the Columbus Commons. Sheesh. :gomer:

-Kevin

[Andrew Longman]

Weird thing in Jersey is the NJSP has a basic monopoly on medivac helos. Others used to do it but for reasons I don't fully understand the troopers pushed them out. I'm thinking a) the state police have long been their own independent political power and pretty much do as they please and b) that was their justification for getting any/more helos in the first place.

And there seems to be many cases when the medivacs are used when not really necessary. I've seen several cases in the last few years when with the hospital less than 15 miles away on a country road they waited 45 minutes for a helo to show up.

And no matter who is governor, use of the NJSP helos has always been a basis for political barbs.

[nrc]

21 Years.

But then they'll figure out if he's still a menace. :shakehead

[Napoleon]

21 Years.

But then they'll figure out if he's still a menace. :shakehead

On the radio this morning they said that people familar with their legal system say that he will never be released.

[NismoZ]

But, he's SANE, so if a sane guy can do that then it means he can't be REhabilitated because he was not DIShabilitated. Slick move by the PROSECUTION to try to prove him INsane, but they "lost." (?) Perhaps he will be driven INsane in prison THEN he can be FORCED to become normal...and released! 10-21 yrs. for 77 murders sounds a tad lenient. I think in my state someone would get 77 life terms or be executed 77 times for committing a sane act like that! THAT'd show 'im! So, how does a 10-21 year sentence become a "he'll never be released?" In some places around the world guys like him move on to lead the whole country...by popular acclaim!

[cameraman]

Norway has a very progressive legal system that relies heavily on rehabilitation, that said they also realize that some people just can't be trusted to change. They are very progressive but not so foolish as to ever let him go.

Norway's incarceration rate is 71/100,000 as opposed to our 743/100,000.
Norway's recidivism rate runs at about 20% whereas ours runs 52%.

We have no grounds to be questioning the way their legal system operates.

[Napoleon]

Norway's incarceration rate is 71/100,000 as opposed to our 743/100,000.
Norway's recidivism rate runs at about 20% whereas ours runs 52%.

The US has 5% of the world population but 25% of the worlds population that is incarcerated. China (with something like 4 times our population) is a distant second to us.

[nrc]

On the radio this morning they said that people familar with their legal system say that he will never be released.

Some of the victims families say that they've been sentenced to 21 years of hatred and revisiting their child's murder over and over for the rest of their lives.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10000872396390444358404577608963792181948.html

[Gnam]

We have no grounds to be questioning the way their legal system operates.

Norway's legal system should be strapped to the gunman and pushed out of a plane at 21,000 ft.

[Insomniac]

The US has 5% of the world population but 25% of the worlds population that is incarcerated. China (with something like 4 times our population) is a distant second to us.

Seems like China also executes a lot more people.

[Insomniac]

.