View Full Version : Simon in for Simona at Sonoma
http://www.hvmracing.com/pagenaud.html
http://morefrontwing.com/2011/08/26/sonoma-bashs-friday-thoughts/
The first real news of the day broke on Twitter: Simona de Silvestro was sent back to Switzerland this morning after attempting to enter the United States. HVM Racing’s Monica Hilton shared a few details with me, including that Simona had flown into Washington Dulles and that her visa and documentation were all in order. There was a technical issue with customs, and the agent took a by-the-book stance on the situation and sent Simona back home. Simon Pagenaud has stepped in to drive the car as long as needed this weekend. Meanwhile, HVM Racing is doing all they can to get Simona back to the States in time to participate.
http://www.clusterflock.org/wp-content/uploads/2008/02/41g9wa5nrdl_aa280_.jpg
Excellent thread title. :thumbup:
WTF is up with Customs? Free Simona!
TravelGal
08-28-11, 03:46 PM
Excellent thread title. :thumbup:
WTF is up with Customs? Free Simona!
Yes, loved the title.
Customs? Wonder what she had with her? Hadn't thought of this is ages but I remember wrangling with customs over the import of scientific journals on microfiche (remember them??!!). Customs declared them to fit under the category of "works of art" and was charging laughable sums per fiche.
Wheel-Nut
08-28-11, 04:02 PM
Simona; Simon; does it really matter who drives the car?
Yeah, I was thinking it might have been Dick Simon...maybe even Paul Simon.:irked:
Are we sure there are two people? Maybe this is one of those Victor/Victoria thingies. :gomer:
opinionated ow
08-28-11, 11:24 PM
Are we sure there are two people? Maybe this is one of those Victor/Victoria thingies. :gomer:
Nah, they're definitely different. Simon doesn't arouse me at all :p
stroker
08-28-11, 11:57 PM
So, we've got Penske/Ganassi filling the top five spots.
Yep. New car oughta fix that problem.
:shakehead
TKGAngel
08-29-11, 09:13 AM
Watching Miller & Bernard go at each other might have been a more entertaining way for the network to fill 2.5 hours of air time.
Watching Miller & Bernard go at each other might have been a more entertaining way for the network to fill 2.5 hours of air time.
What was that all about? I've read elsewhere that Miller should be fired for that. What happened?
racer2c
08-29-11, 09:23 AM
Watching Miller & Bernard go at each other might have been a more entertaining way for the network to fill 2.5 hours of air time.
That was without doubt the best part of the race.
Right, fire RM...that'll fix things.:shakehead
Rogue Leader
08-29-11, 10:37 AM
What was that all about? I've read elsewhere that Miller should be fired for that. What happened?
Should be fired? For questioning the judgement of Randy Bernard and Brian Brainfart? What are we in Nazi Germany?:saywhat:
Don Quixote
08-29-11, 10:58 AM
Right, fire RM...that'll fix things.:shakeheadIf they do, his columns for the next year would be golden. He knows where the bodies are buried.
Watching Miller & Bernard go at each other might have been a more entertaining way for the network to fill 2.5 hours of air time.
:thumbup: :thumbup: You go, RM.
-Kevin
cameraman
08-29-11, 12:45 PM
So I have seen comments that the post race blocking penalty given to Giorgio Pantano was a load of codswallop. Did anyone see this to confirm one way or the other? I missed the whole thing as usual.
Andrew Longman
08-29-11, 01:37 PM
So I have seen comments that the post race blocking penalty given to Giorgio Pantano was a load of codswallop. Did anyone see this to confirm one way or the other? I missed the whole thing as usual.Don't know about the penalty but he passed Conway on IIRC the last lap but didn't clear him completely. Tried to push him left to the dirt and Conway wouldn't yield and they touched, sending them both spinning w/o damage.
BS move that may have been retaliation for something earlier in the race, but definitely avoidable contact. Not exactly what I would call blocking though.
What, more race control buffoonery? Ropin' 100% behind his boy, double-secret drivers meeting votes TGBB out, now RM biting hand that feeds it? While on-track predictablity has remained the same for 15 years, the off-track Monday-thursday flailing about is still high in laughability. :laugh:
Trevor Longman
08-29-11, 02:07 PM
Get your facts straight dad that was Saavedra. :p
If they do, his columns for the next year would be golden. He knows where the bodies are buried.
Thats something I would pay to read!
cameraman
08-29-11, 04:26 PM
Get your facts straight dad that was Saavedra. :p
Thanks for clearing that up, I was seriously confused. I believe Monsieur Bourdais was the purported blockie.
Sounds like I missed another gem of a race:rolleyes:
racer2c
08-29-11, 04:28 PM
So I have seen comments that the post race blocking penalty given to Giorgio Pantano was a load of codswallop. Did anyone see this to confirm one way or the other? I missed the whole thing as usual.
Evidently in the irl you are not allowed to pass another car unless you submit a written request 3 days in advance to barnhardt. This is to prevent those horrible, "European" passes that gomers despise.
cameraman
08-29-11, 05:58 PM
So can Brainfart fine Max Papis?
Just read that @pantano got penalised by @IndyCar in Sonoma that is total BS,it was good tuff racing come on...let's get a wake up call
Who said Miller should be fired? Please tell me it is someone posting under the initials "KK". :laugh:
Rodeoboy rendered himself useless with that mess. Considering his relative good sense shown to this point, he obviously must be under orders to say what he did. And who can give him orders? Mari. So Barnhart must be protected from on high. And I don't think I want to know why. :shudders:
stroker
08-30-11, 07:56 AM
Who said Miller should be fired? Please tell me it is someone posting under the initials "KK". :laugh:
Rodeoboy rendered himself useless with that mess. Considering his relative good sense shown to this point, he obviously must be under orders to say what he did. And who can give him orders? Mari. So Barnhart must be protected from on high. And I don't think I want to know why. :shudders:
EEEEEEEEEEEeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeewwwwwwwwwww........... ......
Ed_Severson
08-30-11, 02:04 PM
I think he just doesn't want to rock the boat mid-season, and it will take time to find a replacement. I suspect we'll see a change over the winter; if not, then Randy's got a lot to answer for.
As for the penalty on Pantano, a bit harsh, but within the rules. As completely ridiculous as it sounds (and it is perhaps the dumbest rule I've ever seen in racing) the rules state that you cannot defend a position on the inside line, which he did. Normally there might be a warning first, particularly for a first-time driver. But since it was the last lap, no warning.
Why they didn't just move him from 6th to 7th, I don't know. The rules permit anything up to and including a black flag, but docking the guy 11 spots for what was -- in any other racing series on earth -- clean defensive driving is just another in the long line of examples that Barnhart's justice meter is out of service.
cameraman
08-30-11, 04:14 PM
As for the penalty on Pantano, a bit harsh, but within the rules. As completely ridiculous as it sounds (and it is perhaps the dumbest rule I've ever seen in racing) the rules state that you cannot defend a position on the inside line, which he did.
So the car in front has to race the outside line the entire time someone is within passing range:confused:
Ed_Severson
08-30-11, 04:41 PM
So the car in front has to race the outside line the entire time someone is within passing range:confused:
Yep. Like I said, it's pants-on-head stupid, but that's the rule. It's for "safety". They implemented it because they thought too much blocking was happening, so they made the lead car a sitting duck.
It's this rule that prompted Helio's outburst at Edmonton last year, and that's where we first found out about it. Apparently they had put the rule in place at some point earlier in 2010, talked about it in the drivers' meetings, but never published it in the rulebook or any competition memo. And, at the time, nobody was allowed into the drivers' meeting except drivers and Barnhart, so not even the TV guys knew what the hell was going on when Helio drew the penalty for blocking.
Andrew Longman
08-30-11, 05:00 PM
Get your facts straight dad that was Saavedra. :pJeebus! I can't tell these ride buying furiners apart. One is the same as another. What difference does it make? :tony:
devilmaster
08-30-11, 06:30 PM
well, he's calling you out......on the internet.... don't you need a garage foundation dug? with a flower trowel?
Andrew Longman
08-30-11, 06:51 PM
well, he's calling you out......on the internet.... don't you need a garage foundation dug? with a flower trowel?Not a foundation, but the driveway needs regrading. Before the next hurricane.
What deep reverence you bring to this message board Ed
for that, we thank you:tony:
I think he just doesn't want to rock the boat mid-season, and it will take time to find a replacement. I suspect we'll see a change over the winter; if not, then Randy's got a lot to answer for.
But Ed, wouldn't the publicity from demoting TGBB be greater than the moronic situation they always find themselves in? Their motto is no pub is bad pub. Reveling 0.3 press releases from the mountaintops ain't cuttin it, and I think the media is gonna bare its teeth imminently...
Ed_Severson
08-31-11, 12:25 PM
But Ed, wouldn't the publicity from demoting TGBB be greater than the moronic situation they always find themselves in? Their motto is no pub is bad pub. Reveling 0.3 press releases from the mountaintops ain't cuttin it, and I think the media is gonna bare its teeth imminently...
I don't really think this one's about the media or publicity. Like the guy or not, he has a lot of responsibility. Replacing everything he does on short notice would be nearly impossible, and it's not like there's a bunch of folks lined up to volunteer.
Most people who think he should be removed from race control -- myself included -- believe that Tony Cotman would be the best option for a replacement. But TC has said he's not interested, and he's got a full plate right now with the new car and the circuit work he's doing. Getting the details ironed out will take some time. And even if you have every intention of giving him the hook over the winter, if you're stuck with him now, your only real option with a microphone in your face is to say that you're 100% supportive of him.
It's like the old head coaching "vote of confidence" from the GM or ownership ... it's a virtual kiss of death, but you can't just waltz into a room full of reporters and say "Yeah, of course we're going to fire that clown, but not today!"
Racing Truth
08-31-11, 01:25 PM
So the car in front has to race the outside line the entire time someone is within passing range:confused:
Yep, the "slot car" rule. To be fair to TGBB, this rule (according to PT & TC) was Tony Cotman's brilliant idea from Champ Car.
Yep, the "slot car" rule. To be fair to TGBB, this rule (according to PT & TC) was Tony Cotman's brilliant idea from Champ Car.
Why does everyone think Cotman is the answer? Have you seen the new car? Wasn't he responsible for that fiasco, too?
I am going to let Randy know I am available. If he hires me I will replace all the gomers with you guys. :laugh:
Ed_Severson
08-31-11, 02:03 PM
Why does everyone think Cotman is the answer? Have you seen the new car? Wasn't he responsible for that fiasco, too?
I can't deny a fair amount of bias, but Tony is the right guy for the job. He understands what the sport is supposed to be about, and while he's likeable and most everyone in the paddock could get along with him, he's not interested in being your best friend. He's got a pretty sound sense of what's fair and what's not, and he's more than capable of writing a clear and concise rulebook and sticking to it. He gets it in economic terms as well, and he's pushed as hard as he can to make the new car as un-spec as possible within the boundaries IndyCar has confined him to.
Yes, the goofy inside/outside rule was his idea. Barnhart asked for ideas, Tony gave him some. Brian picked a bad one. Barnhart's inability to delineate what constitutes blocking and enforce it uniformly created the problem in the first place.
As for the new car ... you can't really be serious on that one, right? The guy doesn't work for Dallara. The series has an interest in size, weight, performance characteristics, and safety features. They provide a loose framework, and Dallara chooses what avenue to pursue within that framework. It's not Tony's job to evaluate whether the car is too ugly -- he's there to make sure it meets measurable criteria. We're a long way from final judgement on that one.
Racing Truth
08-31-11, 02:37 PM
Why does everyone think Cotman is the answer? Have you seen the new car? Wasn't he responsible for that fiasco, too?
I am going to let Randy know I am available. If he hires me I will replace all the gomers with you guys. :laugh:
At the end of the day, I'm mostly w/ Ed on this. Yes, I hate the slot car rule, but all things considered, he seems the most level-headed, knowledgeable guy out there. Besides, Forsythe hated the guy, which can only speak well of him.;)
That said, the guy from ALMS (Barfield?) intrigues me. He has OW experience, but would still be something of a clean break. We might need that.
Ed_Severson
08-31-11, 02:47 PM
That said, the guy from ALMS (Barfield?) intrigues me. He has OW experience, but would still be something of a clean break. We might need that.
Beaux did a good job with Atlantics and would do well in IndyCar, but if TC has zero interest, he would have less than zero, IMO. They'd have to dangle some pretty big carrots in front of him, I assume. But I could be wrong on that one. I spent a lot less time around him than I did TC, and he's tough to get a read on ... maybe he'd jump at the opportunity.
stroker
08-31-11, 03:33 PM
at the risk of being called a wet blanket on this topic, I don't care who is administering the rules because it's not going to change the core problem. I asked this question on Smack and got no response at all, so I'll try it here... If you weren't Penske/Ganassi/Andretti why would you bother to want to run Indycars next year? If you're a guy like Forsythe with cash to burn and a passion for open-wheel racing, okay, I get that. But what about everybody else? I just don't understand why a guy like Dayle Coyne would to bust his hump all year running a completely corrupt, incompetent series and spend a ton of money (probably his own) to do it?
I just don't get it.
Racing Truth
08-31-11, 03:39 PM
at the risk of being called a wet blanket on this topic, I don't care who is administering the rules because it's not going to change the core problem. I asked this question on Smack and got no response at all, so I'll try it here... If you weren't Penske/Ganassi/Andretti why would you bother to want to run Indycars next year? If you're a guy like Forsythe with cash to burn and a passion for open-wheel racing, okay, I get that. But what about everybody else? I just don't understand why a guy like Dayle Coyne would to bust his hump all year running a completely corrupt, incompetent series and spend a ton of money (probably his own) to do it?
I just don't get it.
The greatest (maybe sole, at this point?) cause of corruption and/or incompetence is race control. Period. Fixing that solves... not everything, but a lot.
Ed_Severson
08-31-11, 03:42 PM
Changing who administers the rules actually would solve a lot of their problems.
And if you're Dale Coyne or Eric Bachelart or Keith Wiggins or any of a number of other guys, you do it because it's accessible and because it still beats working for a living.
Other than that, I guess I don't understand your point. It seems like you're trying to infer that the Hulmans are all but fixing races, which really makes no sense at all. Foyt would be winning like crazy if that was the case.
stroker
08-31-11, 04:14 PM
Maybe I used too broad a brush, but they've had a couple of years post-split to try and do something to get this thing going but it's only declined in virtually every measurable way. My question is why the privateer teams continue to bother with it when there are other more successful and professionally run racing series to go to. While Race Control is an enormous problem, solving that is nowhere near enough to pull the series out of the crapper. It's so bad I don't even bother to watch the races on TV, so I don't understand why the teams make the effort.
Ed_Severson
08-31-11, 04:39 PM
How many ALMS teams do you think actually turn a big profit? It may be a small chance, but if you manage to win Indianapolis, you get a pretty big check. If you win the 12 Hours of Sebring you get about $25 grand, $7 grand of which refunds your entry fee assuming you're a full-season entrant.
Sure, next season will be more expensive than this one, but not many teams are spending their own money. Ganassi has sponsorship for 4 cars. Penske has solid sponsors. Andretti has solid sponsors. Newman Haas has solid sponsors, as do Panther, KV, Foyt, Coyne, D&R, Schmidt, and HVM. Conquest is the only one of the full-time teams that doesn't have any sort of solid backing, and they've been that way for years.
stroker
08-31-11, 07:02 PM
Well, then I guess they're better off than I realized. Never mind...
Ed_Severson
08-31-11, 07:17 PM
It's not like things are all rosy, but in sponsorship terms, most of the teams are doing OK. There's still a decent amount of sponsor turnover and I doubt anybody outside the big three really does anything beyond breaking even, but teams aren't struggling to find primary sponsorship in the same way they were five or 10 years ago. As a whole the ALMS field might be a little better off -- I really don't know -- but the point I was trying to make is that in terms of prize money, the two series aren't too far apart except that at least IndyCar has one huge payday available, and sponsorship isn't a money-making venture for most teams in either series.
No argument from a professionalism perspective on the operations front -- ALMS does a great job, IndyCar not so much. But if you're an open-wheel team, I think first of all, making the jump to sports cars is a little bigger task than many realize. Secondly, if you really like the mix of ovals and road courses, you're not going to get that anywhere but IndyCar. And thirdly, unless you have a great sponsorship package that's pushing you in that direction, the economics aren't much different in the two series outside the lottery ticket that comes with qualifying for Indy.
I'm sure they all experience some frustration and have days when they wonder why they bother -- God knows I do and all I'm doing right now is watching. But if the competition issues get ironed out, that will get a lot better, and the economics aren't a whole lot better anywhere else unless you make a gigantic change, like switching to NASCAR or moving your facility to Europe.
Racing Truth
08-31-11, 07:19 PM
Maybe I used too broad a brush, but they've had a couple of years post-split to try and do something to get this thing going but it's only declined in virtually every measurable way. My question is why the privateer teams continue to bother with it when there are other more successful and professionally run racing series to go to. While Race Control is an enormous problem, solving that is nowhere near enough to pull the series out of the crapper. It's so bad I don't even bother to watch the races on TV, so I don't understand why the teams make the effort.
OK, what beyond RC needs fixing, and how? Be specific.
As for the new car ... you can't really be serious on that one, right? The guy doesn't work for Dallara. The series has an interest in size, weight, performance characteristics, and safety features. They provide a loose framework, and Dallara chooses what avenue to pursue within that framework. It's not Tony's job to evaluate whether the car is too ugly -- he's there to make sure it meets measurable criteria. We're a long way from final judgement on that one.
I thought it was his job to work with Dallara to make it happen the right way this time. Having his input was supposed to help Dallara not produce another dud. But maybe what you are saying is that the idiotic Anton design principles are still in place and he couldn't do anything about that? If that is the case, why in God's name wouldn't they at least update their concepts to late-1990's CART specs? Who is making that call? And even if he is just responsible for safety, etc., couldn't he have looked at those drawings and told Dallara to try again?
at the risk of being called a wet blanket on this topic, I don't care who is administering the rules because it's not going to change the core problem. I asked this question on Smack and got no response at all, so I'll try it here... If you weren't Penske/Ganassi/Andretti why would you bother to want to run Indycars next year? If you're a guy like Forsythe with cash to burn and a passion for open-wheel racing, okay, I get that. But what about everybody else? I just don't understand why a guy like Dayle Coyne would to bust his hump all year running a completely corrupt, incompetent series and spend a ton of money (probably his own) to do it?
I just don't get it.
Good question. As far as I can tell, the sport used to be a hobby for rich guys. Penske remembers those days. Much like today, most of the little guys were starving, and very rarely was owning a team profitable. Then it became a profitable enterprise under CART, which is what most of us remember. They were actually somewhat market driven, because they cared about butts and eyeballs. And of course the owners were getting rich of the manufacturer money, so they were happy. All Tonytard did was protect his family's asset by scaling it back to a hobbyist sport, and that is where it is today. I doubt that anyone is making much of a profit, but there seems to be an endless supply of guys willing to write checks to make teams happen. But to your question, why? I don't know. It makes no sense to me.
OK, what beyond RC needs fixing, and how? Be specific.
They need a good looking car that sounds good. They need to allow some variation between teams -- certain areas where they can innovate and be better or worse for it. They need at least two engine makers, preferably auto manufacturers, and they need to open that to independent builders as well.
It ain't rocket science. Boring slow spec cars that sound lousy are not the answer.
Ed_Severson
08-31-11, 08:39 PM
I thought it was his job to work with Dallara to make it happen the right way this time. Having his input was supposed to help Dallara not produce another dud. But maybe what you are saying is that the idiotic Anton design principles are still in place and he couldn't do anything about that? If that is the case, why in God's name wouldn't they at least update their concepts to late-1990's CART specs? Who is making that call? And even if he is just responsible for safety, etc., couldn't he have looked at those drawings and told Dallara to try again?
I honestly don't understand your complaint. Is this an aesthetic gripe or something else?
stroker
08-31-11, 09:24 PM
I honestly don't understand your complaint. Is this an aesthetic gripe or something else?
you and Indy seem to have a fundamentally different idea of what TC's involvement in the '012 car was. Ed seems to think he's there to check the car and make sure it matches IRL specs and Indy seems to think TC was a liaison to help Dallara "interpret" the concepts laid down by the IRL in the design of the car. I have no idea which position is correct and honestly I don't care much.
OK, what beyond RC needs fixing, and how? Be specific.
IMHO before anything else they need a formula that's affordable compared to the sponsorship revenue available. Ed seems to think that there's enough sponsorship $ for the hardware they've got. My impression as a noob is that they need something that's more like half the current cost over the course of a season. Per Indy, they need NON-SPEC formula but it's got to address three fundamental fan appeal issues, namely:
1. fundamental technological development (something more significant than a more slippery rear view mirror)
2. that development needs to lead to tangible increases in speed (without the series allowing costs to spiral out of control)
3. the cars have to be challenging to drive (requiring more skill that JPM's Grandmother has) and entertaining to watch
Attractive aesthetic design and exhaust note helps, but it's not critical to me.
Beyond that, they need a transparent rulebook with consistent (and sensible) application of the rules to everybody. They (the IRL) need to designate a small group dedicated to locating, acquiring and retaining quality venues for the series and working with promoters to ensure the promoters make some $. They need a small and accessible group dedicated to surveying fans, transmitting fan feedback to the series and finding sponsors aligned with the fan base. They need a similar group working with the TV broadcast team to make it as good as it can be.
Is that specific enough for you?
Ed_Severson
08-31-11, 10:14 PM
you and Indy seem to have a fundamentally different idea of what TC's involvement in the '012 car was.
The problem I'm having is that I seriously can't tell if that's the case or not.
I don't know what "make it happen the right way this time" means. Not ugly? Not tail-heavy? Not such huge L/D numbers? Ten seconds faster? I don't know what "not produce another dud" means either. Or which "idiotic Anton design principles" he thinks are still in place, or exactly what "late-1990's CART specs" he thinks they should adopt.
I'm not trying to be a smartass, I just genuinely don't understand what part of the new car Indy thinks is a "fiasco" and what he thinks TC is supposed to have done differently. Is it too narrow? Too wide? Too tall? Too long? Too short? Too slow? Too heavy? Too dangerous? Too ugly? Help me out here.
As for your comments ...
I think anything that's half the cost of the current car is unrealistic. I agree something less expensive would be great and would sway the economic balance in the right direction, but a 50% cost reduction is totally unrealistic unless you want to go 100% spec on all fronts.
They'll get some technological development through the new engine specs, and with the introduction of multiple aero packages. It's not clear yet how much freedom the teams will have for modifications, but hopefully they'll have some areas to work with.
I think speed will come with the new car. If they can move more downforce production to the undertray and be less airspeed-dependent, you'll see significantly reduced drag, like what happened with the DP01. Throw in some weight savings and a little better F:R weight distribution and road course speeds will go up. Oval speeds will come down to the allowable boost levels more than anything else, and while Randy has been hesitant to get involved in the operational side of things, I think he'll make sure his voice is heard on this one. He at least seems to get that increased speed is a necessary thing.
Harder to drive should, in part, come along with the speed. A lot of people worried that the DP01 would be easier to drive than the Lola because it was less aero-sensitive, but a lot of the drivers seemed to think that wasn't the case. If the car is lighter and more powerful and if boost levels are high enough to give decent turbo lag, they'll be a lot more difficult than the current car. Worse tires and avoiding carbon brakes would be further steps in the right direction on that front, but those won't happen.
The rulebook doesn't just need to be transparent -- it needs to be concise and precise and specific. No more clauses about the race director's discretion. Solid procedural outlines for how restart orders are determined. A clear definition for blocking. Specific penalties for specific offenses. And once it's written, it's gospel.
Everything else I'll leave to others, since it falls outside the purview of the race director and VP of Operations, which is where this conversation originated.
racer2c
08-31-11, 10:23 PM
:yuck: god...way to many words being vomited out for this pos faux racing series. Cotman is the most over rated guy to have never proved himself in the history of US ow racing. Why do people think he's the savior? Cuz there's no one else!!!!
Simple.
chop456
09-01-11, 06:36 AM
.2 TV rating.
When they go Danica-free, will Nielsen need to recode their software to tolerate negative numbers? :tony:
opinionated ow
09-01-11, 07:01 AM
Simona free?
Simona's birthday...
Don Quixote
09-01-11, 08:45 AM
.2 TV rating.
When they go Danica-free, will Nielsen need to recode their software to tolerate negative numbers? :tony:You are missing the point. The 0.2 is in a primo demographic. :tony:
Racing Truth
09-01-11, 10:39 AM
0
you and Indy seem to have a fundamentally different idea of what TC's involvement in the '012 car was. Ed seems to think he's there to check the car and make sure it matches IRL specs and Indy seems to think TC was a liaison to help Dallara "interpret" the concepts laid down by the IRL in the design of the car. I have no idea which position is correct and honestly I don't care much.
IMHO before anything else they need a formula that's affordable compared to the sponsorship revenue available. Ed seems to think that there's enough sponsorship $ for the hardware they've got. My impression as a noob is that they need something that's more like half the current cost over the course of a season. Per Indy, they need NON-SPEC formula but it's got to address three fundamental fan appeal issues, namely:
1. fundamental technological development (something more significant than a more slippery rear view mirror)
2. that development needs to lead to tangible increases in speed (without the series allowing costs to spiral out of control)
3. the cars have to be challenging to drive (requiring more skill that JPM's Grandmother has) and entertaining to watch
Attractive aesthetic design and exhaust note helps, but it's not critical to me.
Beyond that, they need a transparent rulebook with consistent (and sensible) application of the rules to everybody. They (the IRL) need to designate a small group dedicated to locating, acquiring and retaining quality venues for the series and working with promoters to ensure the promoters make some $. They need a small and accessible group dedicated to surveying fans, transmitting fan feedback to the series and finding sponsors aligned with the fan base. They need a similar group working with the TV broadcast team to make it as good as it can be.
Is that specific enough for you?
On the new car, you want those three things (plus better aesthetics and engine note*) AND a car that's half the current car cost? Now, you CAN create a solid, even interesting car at such a price, but #1 in particular seems difficult to achieve (for your price range) beyond the initial intro of the car. 7-10 yrs. ago, maybe a unified entity could do that in better economic times. Now, you need to, to an extent, choose between yearly innovation and cost. As it is, teams are beyotching about buying new cars next yr. (even though they're cheaper, car-to-car, than the current sled) b/c it's all new expenses.
Totally agree on the rulebook, and to an extent, the venues (add RA and Cleveland, and it's pretty solid though). The VERSUS crew is seen by no one, but they do a fairly nice job. ABC's almost hopeless, I fear.
*From what I've read, expect the new engine to sound similar to a late '80's
F1 turbo.
chop456
09-01-11, 01:16 PM
You are missing the point. The 0.2 is in a primo demographic. :tony:
If they were to truly target their demo, it would be nothing but Odor Eaters, Trimspa and Enzyte.
Way to go stroker!
car guys know how to design and build cars
Internet Pundits of course, no nothing but rhetoric
Champcar Racing was once the realm of car guys, now they have either given up (due to money, age or apathy) or joined the other side and are only concerned with the money they can make (off guys who do the leg work procuring sponsorship) no matter their CV.
the entire thing is bad, real bad.
The IRL is not a series to be taken seriously. Wonder why Autocourse, the cornerstone of any historical reference, has ceased covering this series?????
JohnHKart
09-01-11, 10:16 PM
After trying to watch Sears Point, if the new cars and engines produce more of the same race I just saw, I'm out. They can't, it's gotta get better right? My racer friend at work suggested I try ALMS or Grand AM when I told him I can't watch this crap anymore. Ah well, we still have F1.
stroker
09-01-11, 10:18 PM
Okay, what I have in mind nobody wants to talk about so I'll save my fingers.
On a different tangent, somebody remind me--was not the last iteration of the Atlantic car supposedly budgeted for $1 to $2 mil/year per car? Would that not be in the price range I'm talking about? I know, I know, it's not approved for oval use, but it wouldn't be anywhere near as fast on a Superspeedway, would it?
Just for the sake of discussion, let's wave a magic wand and solve the Race Control problems. That leaves us with hardware. Are you guys seriously telling me that if there were two versions of the Swift Atlantic tub (long and short wheelbase, oval/road configuration, whatever) with several aftermarket suppliers of suspension, bodywork (fiberglass, not carbon) and two or three different "stock block" 2 liter turbo crate engines (all spec'd for a "out the door price"), that would be an inferior situation to what we have now? I just don't see how that's asking for the moon...
Okay, what I have in mind nobody wants to talk about so I'll save my fingers.
Just for the sake of discussion, let's wave a magic wand and solve the Race Control problems. That leaves us with hardware. Are you guys seriously telling me that if there were two versions of the Swift Atlantic tub (long and short wheelbase, oval/road configuration, whatever) with several aftermarket suppliers of suspension, bodywork (fiberglass, not carbon) and two or three different "stock block" 2 liter turbo crate engines (all spec'd for a "out the door price"), that would be an inferior situation to what we have now? I just don't see how that's asking for the moon...
We? :gomer:
Ed_Severson
09-01-11, 11:51 PM
Just for the sake of discussion, let's wave a magic wand and solve the Race Control problems. That leaves us with hardware. Are you guys seriously telling me that if there were two versions of the Swift Atlantic tub (long and short wheelbase, oval/road configuration, whatever) with several aftermarket suppliers of suspension, bodywork (fiberglass, not carbon) and two or three different "stock block" 2 liter turbo crate engines (all spec'd for a "out the door price"), that would be an inferior situation to what we have now? I just don't see how that's asking for the moon...
Just so we're clear, you're advocating a car that allows technological development, is noticeably faster, and is more difficult to drive, and your suggestion for that is a five-year-old ladder series car made out of fiberglass?
cameraman
09-01-11, 11:59 PM
Just so we're clear, you're advocating a car that allows technological development, is noticeably faster, and is more difficult to drive, and your suggestion for that is a five-year-old ladder series car made out of fiberglass?
If the shoe fits...
Actually they should have bought the current Dallara GP2 car or the Elan superleague car. Both are vastly superior to the piece of crap they are currently running and that hideous replacement they are trying to build..
Ed_Severson
09-02-11, 12:15 AM
I don't suppose any resident expert critics of the new car, which just ran its first laps in anger today, would care to specifically point out what's wrong with it other than the appearance.
cameraman
09-02-11, 05:57 AM
You mean more than the fact that the entire upper body is built around a fake airbox?
My point is that Cotman is supposed to be so superior, but I just don't see the evidence of that being the case. I am not convinced that replacing Barnhart with Cotman would be a big improvement, and I do think Cotman was as beholden to the IRL as he was to Champ Car, so he would not be the CC-esque savior that some think he would be.
And Ed, it IS the freaking aesthetics! You get to design a spec car from a clean sheet, knowing that the future of the sport rides on attracting a new generation of fans, and you come up with that turd? You think my son is going to look at that and say "Dad, why can't we go to a race?" Or is he going to laugh like he does with the current cars?
I really don't care, or maybe more accurately I wouldn't mind seeing the whole thing abandoned and IMS become a shopping mall, but I can't help but be offended but their complete stupidity and inability to find a viable strategic direction. Who makes these decisions - Mari and her imaginary friends?
chop456
09-02-11, 07:53 AM
I am not convinced that replacing Barnhart with Cotman would be a big improvement
Are you kidding? Removing him and NOT replacing him would be an improvement.
stroker
09-02-11, 08:22 AM
Just so we're clear, you're advocating a car that allows technological development, is noticeably faster, and is more difficult to drive, and your suggestion for that is a five-year-old ladder series car made out of fiberglass?
Uh, NO. I'm not advocating that specific car, I'm using it as evidence that what I'm proposing is economically viable and can meet the criteria I outlined. I never said anything about the new car having to be noticeably faster than the current car. I said the new car's technological development over time has to result in speed increases.
You mean more than the fact that the entire upper body is built around a fake airbox?I'm not convinced that it's fake. :\
My point is that Cotman is supposed to be so superior, but I just don't see the evidence of that being the case. I am not convinced that replacing Barnhart with Cotman would be a big improvement, and I do think Cotman was as beholden to the IRL as he was to Champ Car, so he would not be the CC-esque savior that some think he would be.
I worked with Tony. Tony's a good guy. A great guy maybe.
Hero worship was a big part of how AOWR got into this mess, whether the hero was TG, BB, KK, or TC.
We don't have a savior.
Clark ****ing Kent isn't going to save this ****.
Maybe Lex Luthor could make some improvements, I don't know.
Uh, NO. I'm not advocating that specific car, I'm using it as evidence that what I'm proposing is economically viable and can meet the criteria I outlined. I never said anything about the new car having to be noticeably faster than the current car. I said the new car's technological development over time has to result in speed increases.
This photochop monstrosity is starting to look better and better.
http://static.cargurus.com/images/site/2008/04/02/23/28/2006_ariel_atom-pic-43456.jpeg
opinionated ow
09-02-11, 08:58 AM
This photochop monstrosity is starting to look better and better.
http://static.cargurus.com/images/site/2008/04/02/23/28/2006_ariel_atom-pic-43456.jpeg
That's not a photoshop. The base Atom does come with a honda engine
Ed_Severson
09-02-11, 09:33 AM
Ah, **** it. This is a pointless argument.
Ah, **** it. This is a pointless argument.
It does kinda remind me of any arguement over who is responsible for the uncomfortable deck chairs on the Titanic. Anyone know anything further about Simona?
Ed_Severson
09-02-11, 11:18 AM
She's back in the States and will drive this weekend. Apparently just had the misfortune of running into an overly-gruff customs agent who thought it was suspicious that she had been in and out of the country so frequently and had spent too much time in Canada. When she explained that she was a professional race car driver, he didn't believe her and couldn't be arsed to check, so he bounced her for 60 days.
opinionated ow
09-02-11, 06:58 PM
She's back in the States and will drive this weekend. Apparently just had the misfortune of running into an overly-gruff customs agent who thought it was suspicious that she had been in and out of the country so frequently and had spent too much time in Canada. When she explained that she was a professional race car driver, he didn't believe her and couldn't be arsed to check, so he bounced her for 60 days.
F***ing idiot!
stroker
09-02-11, 08:09 PM
This photochop monstrosity is starting to look better and better.
http://static.cargurus.com/images/site/2008/04/02/23/28/2006_ariel_atom-pic-43456.jpeg
I'd rather watch single seat versions of that run than the current car. Seriously. Build a couple of different frames and open up the suspension/engine and it would be a better show.
She's back in the States and will drive this weekend. Apparently just had the misfortune of running into an overly-gruff customs agent who thought it was suspicious that she had been in and out of the country so frequently and had spent too much time in Canada. When she explained that she was a professional race car driver, he didn't believe her and couldn't be arsed to check, so he bounced her for 60 days.
Ooh my little pretty one, pretty one.
When you gonna set a time, Simona?
Ooh you make the motor run, the motor run.
Gun it comin' off the line Simona
Never gonna stop, give it up.
Set a faster time. Always fly on up for the wall
Of the earl kind. My my my i yi woo. M M M My Simona...
stroker
09-03-11, 09:39 AM
Ooh my little pretty one, pretty one.
When you gonna set a time, Simona?
Ooh you make the motor run, the motor run.
Gun it comin' off the line Simona
Never gonna stop, give it up.
Set a faster time. Always fly on up for the wall
Of the earl kind. My my my i yi woo. M M M My Simona...
Well played! :D
opinionated ow
09-03-11, 10:18 AM
Ooh my little pretty one, pretty one.
When you gonna set a time, Simona?
Ooh you make the motor run, the motor run.
Gun it comin' off the line Simona
Never gonna stop, give it up.
Set a faster time. Always fly on up for the wall
Of the earl kind. My my my i yi woo. M M M My Simona...
Can I get a ringtone of that?
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