View Full Version : Las Vegas Futility Thread
Don Quixote
10-17-11, 03:25 PM
But at Texas, wasn't it Olvey who had to stop the madness? I remember some of the drivers being very vocal, including Andretti.
TKGAngel
10-17-11, 03:28 PM
Per the AP's Jenna Fryer, the overnights are in and yesterday carried a 1.5 rating.
Ed_Severson
10-17-11, 03:30 PM
Also just in from IndyCar PR, J.R. Hildebrand was hospitalized overnight with a bruised sternum, but has been released.
Michaelhatesfans
10-17-11, 03:33 PM
I'm on my phone, so sorry for the lack of links, but the BBC has some pretty damning interviews with Blundell and Jody Scheckter (Jody was at the race). In case you're tired of reports from stick and ball reporters who were drafted in to bang out an article in ten minutes...
I'm on my phone, so sorry for the lack of links, but the BBC has some pretty damning interviews with Blundell and Jody Scheckter (Jody was at the race). In case you're tired of reports from stick and ball reporters who were drafted in to bang out an article in ten minutes...
Nigel Mansell http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/motorsport/15336902.stm
Jody Scheckter http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/motorsport/15335428.stm
Nigel Mansell http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/motorsport/15336902.stm
Jody Scheckter http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/motorsport/15335428.stm
So who's opinion do we respect and value? Mansell, Schecter, Stewart, and the few active drivers who spoke out OR those who continue to tote the IRL party line?
Napoleon
10-17-11, 04:17 PM
What you describe is also technically group think.
I would have to respectfully disagree. To me group think is generated within the group and not imposed by external factors.
A quick internet search brought back these two which is sort of what I had in mind:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Groupthink
http://phobias.about.com/od/glossary/g/groupthinkdef.htm
But this raises the question of what is the group, and perhaps that is where we differ. To me the drivers are a discrete group and the decision to race despite the misgivings of some, or maybe even most, of the drivers was something imposed on them by people outside there group, namely the league (and maybe the owners). It isn’t a case of the drivers talking themselves into thinking that the track and conditions under which they would race (the # of cars) were as safe as any other but that they basically felt they didn’t have any other option. I think there is a differance.
Mario on Piers Morgan CNN tonight.
Rogue Leader
10-17-11, 04:56 PM
I remember some of the drivers being very vocal, including Andretti.
Yep, Andretti was the one being quoted on the news saying someone was gonna get killed out there or something like that.
TKGAngel
10-17-11, 04:57 PM
Mario on Piers Morgan CNN tonight.
And PT on with CNN's Wolf Blitzer in the 5pm ET hour.
Andrew Longman
10-17-11, 05:20 PM
I would have to respectfully disagree.As you describe it I think you and I have a difference without distinction. Just MO
But as for the "group" I think your distinctions, while very real, point out the problem with the sport.
Any of them fail if they don't all succeed. They haven't always got that, but it is absolutely true. Unless they think of themselves as part of a larger group they ALL must support succeeding, then any one of them will fail -- or in this case, if one person dies, they all fail.
Napoleon
10-17-11, 05:32 PM
Any of them fail if they don't all succeed.
I agree with that. It is rare in life that anything is zero sum (IMO something may/most people just don't understand), and that is certainly the case here.
Tifosi24
10-17-11, 06:03 PM
I am generally not a big fan of second guessing after the fact, but in the case of all the former greats speaking up against what happens, it leads me to believe that all of these concerns have been voiced behind closed doors and ignored. I honestly don't know if open-wheel can recover from this in North America, but if it has any life left, there needs to be significant soul searching as to where it operates, which has been ignored for 15 plus years. The reaction I got after seeing the replays was the same reaction I got when watching Greg Moore's accident, in that one of the accidents was unsurvivable. I still for the life of me can't believe that three cars got airborne in a single accident, and I pray I never see it again.
I am generally not a big fan of second guessing after the fact, but in the case of all the former greats speaking up against what happens, it leads me to believe that all of these concerns have been voiced behind closed doors and ignored. I honestly don't know if open-wheel can recover from this in North America, but if it has any life left, there needs to be significant soul searching as to where it operates, which has been ignored for 15 plus years. The reaction I got after seeing the replays was the same reaction I got when watching Greg Moore's accident, in that one of the accidents was unsurvivable. I still for the life of me can't believe that three cars got airborne in a single accident, and I pray I never see it again.
I found it fascinating both Wheldon and Power had the right front wing ripped off when they drove up the left rear tire of the car in front of each of them...and both predictably in-flight (IRL style) turned right, and flipped over mid-flight and into the wall.
This has been going on since 1997 IRL-style with Roberto Guerrero beginning it all...it's a damn shame.
t0qWcRuLquw
Race at Las Vegas? What race? (http://www.indycar.com/schedule/)
:rolleyes:
Racing Truth
10-17-11, 07:13 PM
^On the Guerrero '97 deal (pre-banking, BTW), that's not the best indictment. Yes, those cars were true ****boxes, but that particular accident could have bern devastating in any OW car. Car in front mysteriously slows, gets run over by trailer. No packs involved
Kenny Brack '03 and Briscoe '05 are better indictments.
I hated seeing the picture of Dan, his wife, two kids and the BW today.:cry:
It has been a long, long, time since anything in racing bothered me as much as this tragedy. As I said in another thread, I never even saw Dan Wheldon race even one lap. I've only seen a few laps of the IRL/Indycar and that was in 1996 and when they got their first new car in 1997. I haven't seen the Indy 500 since Jacques Villeneuve won.
I think the current Indy cars are incredibly ugly and I've always hated the "dumbed down" aspect of the series, but I only follow it by lurking here, on the old Atlas forums on Autosport, and occasionally reading Speed's articles. I've never been able to bring myself to actually watch it.
I don't really know anything about the series, who's in it, if they have talent, etc. My familiarity ends with the old left-overs from CART and/or Champcar. I pretty much quit regular posting when SeventhGear "turned" before it disappeared.
I never really got into Champcar although I did watch at first. I turned into an F1-only fan for my racing fix. When Montoya bolted to NASCAR, I started watching it again (their reaction after Earnhardt's death turned me off them for most of the 2000s).
Anyway, why am I rambling on here? I've been a racing fan long enough to know that this is a dangerous sport. People die doing this sometimes. But what happened yesterday was carnage far beyond something that should happen in normal racing.
What the bleep were these people thinking in putting any type of formula car on a high-banked 20 degree oval? What were they thinking? I thought the Indy-wars were over and that they won. CART and Champcar are long-since gone. What were they thinking?
Sixteen years after the split, even after the end of the dueling series, they are still getting everything wrong!!! They got it wrong from day one; they mis-diagnosed the supposed problems with CART only to then offer the wrong solutions. Do they still think people aren't watching because it isn't like NASCAR? So they got the "big one." Do they think that this will cause more people to tune in? I can't believe the powers-that-be in Indycar still have their heads buried so far up their )&(*@&.
These people are so wrong; they've ruined the sport. Absolutely ruined it. Most of the people here knew this before yesterday's carnage; but this confirmed it for the rest of the world. I haven't seen this much news and sports news coverage about any racing other than NASCAR in DECADES! Is this what they wanted? Really?
I know I'm rambling; I don't know why this is bothering me so much. Dan Wheldon did not deserve to die like this. No one does. Again, I know this is dangerous. I don't like the calls that have started to end Indycar racing on ovals. See: http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/95490. But this was willful negligence. Maybe not legally, but it was willful and it was disgusting. One of the most disgusting things I have ever seen in sport.
Thanks for letting me get this off my chest.
Mary
I think everyone involved had to know the potential catastrophic outcome of this stunt. I hold them all accountable. Rodeo Randy is probably the least informed about autoracing but Barnhardt, Penske, Ganassi etc and shouldn't have allowed this. Sure hindsight is 20/20 but Dans death should motivate a paradigm shift of how/who runs IndyCar and the team owners, drivers and fans should demand it. Yesterday I was heartbroken, today I'm pissed.
A paradigm shift has already been going on IMO the last few years, the irl has slowly been leaning to what CART once was. Hopefully this event will be the last of high banked ovals. As far as the paradigm shift, it's something they'll never admit to but we don't see "American" drivers rammed down our throat , the likes of Billy Boat, Brad Murphey, Joe Gossek, etc,also the series itself is no longer oval centric and no longer is tg the face and voice of the series. Unfortunately the passion of the best CART fans was killed off long ago by all the irl rhetoric. The irl was nothing but lies and we all know it and have since day one.
Great post Mary.
Racing Truth: the only indictment is that there is a long history of IRL cars into fences and flipping, especially on 1.5 banked ovals. The clip emphasizes when distance is between cars there is time to react. The pack racing aspect of trademark IRL series action is indicted regardless of clip.
Great post Mary.
+1 :thumbup:
too pissed to type. :mad:
Racing Truth
10-17-11, 08:16 PM
Great post Mary.
Racing Truth: the only indictment is that there is a long history of IRL cars into fences and flipping, especially on 1.5 banked ovals. The clip emphasizes when distance is between cars there is time to react. The pack racing aspect of trademark IRL series action is indicted regardless of clip.
Right, but if something similar had happened in a '96-97 Reynard as happened in the '97 Vegas incident, I hate to tell you, but the results would have been no different.
Napoleon
10-17-11, 08:39 PM
They got it wrong from day one; they mis-diagnosed the supposed problems with CART only to then offer the wrong solutions. Do they still think people aren't watching because it isn't like NASCAR?
Just for the record, since my name is a bow to Animal Farm, it never was about any of that. It was first and last a power play. They wanted the money.
That simple. Every thing else is spin.
racer2c
10-17-11, 09:19 PM
A paradigm shift has already been going on IMO the last few years, the irl has slowly been leaning to what CART once was. Hopefully this event will be the last of high banked ovals. As far as the paradigm shift, it's something they'll never admit to but we don't see "American" drivers rammed down our throat , the likes of Billy Boat, Brad Murphey, Joe Gossek, etc,also the series itself is no longer oval centric and no longer is tg the face and voice of the series. Unfortunately the passion of the best CART fans was killed off long ago by all the irl rhetoric. The irl was nothing but lies and we all know it and have since day one.
Yes, pressures from the teams, drivers and fans have pushed them closer and closer to something resembling CART but it's still the same IRL clowns running the show. That will probably never change.
Just for the record, since my name is a bow to Animal Farm, it never was about any of that. It was first and last a power play. They wanted the money.
That simple. Every thing else is spin.
Yeah, and last I heard it cost them over half a billion dollars. Worked real well, huh?
Please forgive this analogy, but they didn't just kill the goose that laid the golden eggs. They killed every goose that laid any eggs. If they couldn't have all of the eggs, nobody could have any of the eggs. Then they wondered what happened to the gold. And then they wondered what happened to the geese.
Mary
Tifosi24
10-17-11, 09:41 PM
I hadn't even bothered to check the Indycar schedule for next year until just now, and man of life it looks like a SuperLeague schedule. There is currently a two month gap in the summer, since they haven't found any events and two of the ovals are Texas and Las Vegas. The other two ovals are Indy and Fontana, which, in my eyes, are doable but the 1.5 mile oval needs to be retired from open wheel racing. With the Indycars having burned bridges at almost every single short oval, or in the case of Phoenix it being turned into a neckcar configuration, there really is no choice but for the series to be almost entirely road or street course. I told a co-worker this morning that I have a strong feeling that yesterday was the death of open wheel racing in North America, which is sad for me since it was the form of motorsport I came to before all others. I don't know if the leadership is strong enough to do the things it needs to do over the next five years, including abandoning flyaway races.
I know our friend in the Southern Hemisphere generally detest all things V8 Supercars, but from what I see on Speed this is a type of formula that can be successful in the states (perhaps without some of the hillbilly personality). This is a route I wouldn't mind seeing some Indycar teams pursue if open wheel goes down for the count.
racer2c
10-17-11, 10:01 PM
I don't nessicarily put all of the blame on the ovals. *I'm already reading NASCARcentric tv/Internet outlets using this for their own agenda , i.e., getting open wheel cars off of ovals (all in the name of safety of course ). *If the crapwagons weren't designed from the outset for pack racing, yesterday may have been a different day. Tony George wanted to capture the attention of as many NASCAR fans as he could from the beginning of the IRL, in ovals and pack racing.
* *CART did a great job of being able to manage the various track types and yet the IRL, in all of their arrogance refuses to look at the history of the sport. They are a pitiful excuse for sanctioning body.*
cameraman
10-17-11, 10:06 PM
Race at Las Vegas? What race? (http://www.indycar.com/schedule/)
:rolleyes:
**** them.:flame:
**** them.:flame:
Orwellian.
Anteater
10-17-11, 10:25 PM
Please forgive this analogy, but they didn't just kill the goose that laid the golden eggs. They killed every goose that laid any eggs. If they couldn't have all of the eggs, nobody could have any of the eggs. Then they wondered what happened to the gold. And then they wondered what happened to the geese.
Mary
Don't apologize for that analogy, Mary--I think it's a very apt description! Very true, and very sad. :cry:
I just keep wondering: why, oh why did the wrong series prevail? And what am I supposed to do with my anger that it did, with such tragic results?
BarillaGirl
10-17-11, 11:48 PM
There's a huge difference between a racer climbing into a car and deciding to race, and a meal ticket strapped into a car and ordered to go off to his death. :flame:
Good post, Mary.
JohnHKart
10-18-11, 12:10 AM
This crash really bothers me. I never had nightmares or lost sleep, despite the fact that I was in harm's way at Reno. I had trouble getting to sleep last night and had a nightmare that woke me up early today. The crash story was the first one on CBS news tonight.
"This is a great way to go out, this is gonna be a spectacle"
Dan Wheldon on the in car radio during the pace lap.
JohnHKart
10-18-11, 12:12 AM
I know our friend in the Southern Hemisphere generally detest all things V8 Supercars, but from what I see on Speed this is a type of formula that can be successful in the states (perhaps without some of the hillbilly personality). This is a route I wouldn't mind seeing some Indycar teams pursue if open wheel goes down for the count.
Saw some of the laps at Bathhurst, I really like those cars, this series has real potential. Too bad Trans Am couldn't have stayed.
God knows there are many parties culpable for this.
I think a good many of us thought this was a dumb PR campaign that was not thought out. Throw a big jackpot up in Vegas, lure some "big names" and save the franchise.
Having said that, and only after watching the replays 1500 times today (Thanks ESPN mothership) I have to wonder why he never slowed down. He came upon the initial cluster#@$% a good second or two after the initial contact and some cars in front of him here heavy braking. New team and poor communication with his spotter?
The league was setting Dan up as next face of the franchise, (500 winner, new Go Daddy drive) but hadn't raced in a few months, and thrown into an unfamiliar team. Simple answer was they were using him to advance the cause.
Again, so much blame to go around, but sad that in hindsight they sacrificed the face of the future of open wheel in a misguided Vegas spectacle that we all suspected was not going to end well.
Trevor Longman
10-18-11, 01:51 AM
Having said that, and only after watching the replays 1500 times today (Thanks ESPN mothership) I have to wonder why he never slowed down. He came upon the initial cluster#@$% a good second or two after the initial contact and some cars in front of him here heavy braking. New team and poor communication with his spotter?
If you watch the live replay, you can actually hear what I believe is Wheldons spotter screaming "GO LOW! GO LOW!" on the radio. They were just onboard with Wheldon as I saw the crash unfolding in front so thats why I think its his radio. They cut away and just a few seconds later he didn't come out on the other side... :(
JohnHKart
10-18-11, 01:52 AM
God, reading the first day of this thread just freaks me out. You guys were sadly spot on as usual.
opinionated ow
10-18-11, 03:33 AM
I posted this on another forum (sometimes frequented by :gomer: but they're mostly short track fans):
The problem is not the speed per se as it is the downforce levels (and subsequently tyre loading) and the pack racing. Before the split (and even immediately post split) there was no such thing as pack racing. It DID NOT happen. Accidents happened far less frequently, and even in the CART era with straight line speeds well over 260mph at various tracks there were no accidents of this magnitude.
34 cars is a lot on track but I still maintain that the pack racing (the so called NASCARisation of open wheel racing) is mostly to blame. It's not like it hasn't happened before either-Kenny Brack at Texas and Ryan Briscoe at Chicagoland. Both accidents raised questions about the choice of the tracks and the cars. The track issue was partially resolved by removing Chicagoland, the car problem stayed. To this day I am amazed that they dare race at TMS-remember when CART tried and the downforce levels and centripetal forces caused the drivers to black out? They very wisely cancelled the race.
The only good thing that can come out of this fiasco is that it was the last time those god-awful, dangerous, ugly crapwagons will ever be raced.
The regulations surrounding the new car must get away from this formula. The cars MUST have the horsepower to break through the aerodynamic wall when they pull out of a slipstream else this same problem will occur all over again.
RIP Dan.
Napoleon
10-18-11, 05:28 AM
. . . there were no accidents of this magnitude.
Can anyone recall any open wheel race that lost that many cars in a single incident? I can not. The US 500 lost a bunch of cars at the start, but I don't think it was 15 and I can not off the top of my head think of one remotely close.
Tifosi24
10-18-11, 06:33 AM
Can anyone recall any open wheel race that lost that many cars in a single incident? I can not. The US 500 lost a bunch of cars at the start, but I don't think it was 15 and I can not off the top of my head think of one remotely close.
The only one that comes even close, right off the top of my head, would be Spa 1998 at the start. Then again, that was in the rain, at the start, and at much slower speeds.
Can anyone recall any open wheel race that lost that many cars in a single incident? I can not. The US 500 lost a bunch of cars at the start, but I don't think it was 15 and I can not off the top of my head think of one remotely close.
The US 500 doesn't count as the race had not started yet. :gomer:
Comparing any of this to the past of US Champcar racing is doing it a great injustice. This pack racing bullcrap is the culprit. The car was designed, as another poster put it, to allow for the "NASCARization" of the product.
They had a big pile up at the start of the 1958, 1964 and 1966 Indy 500.
The stuff written and brain waves spent wondering why the driver went where he went is not realizing how closely matched these current Earl cars are. You want to pass somebody? Katie bar the door, you must make hay while the sun shines. Wheldon was one of the most cavilier of the bunch. When a car that is so much slower than you can hold you up for laps on end, you better get around them while the gettin' is good. It's the momentum faction of the formula.
All the bickering and mudd slinging over the years has not been that fans have to much time on their hands. These cars have been wrong since day one, and the IRL has turned a blind eye to physics the entire time.
Napoleon
10-18-11, 08:06 AM
The US 500 doesn't count as the race had not started yet. :gomer:
Funny, I just looked the race up and I had forgotten that is basically how they treated it and let everyone use backup cars for a restart. For the record 10 cars were taken out in that wreck.
This crash really bothers me.....
"This is a great way to go out, this is gonna be a spectacle"
Dan Wheldon on the in car radio during the pace lap.
I recalled the in-car interview and watched the start on the DVR because I couldn't remember what was said. I stopped after that.
Woke this AM and checked the Twitter feeds. Power posting he couldn't sleep, lots of chatter between the drivers - posts to each other about meeting. They've all clearly been rattled by the entire weekend.
Will Power's flight was a terrifying shunt in itself.
Rahal never gets out of the car before the crews extinguish the fire (happily they caught up to him prior to the car stopping - and that was a track crew nor IRL).
Pippa Mann upside down and on fire - and she spent a long time in the car.
The cars that were run over.
That was just from memory - not up to looking again for the full accounting.
Moore's death created a stir, but the scope of his shunt was so limited. I think the reality of this weekend is that it could have been a multiple fatality wreck.
High Sided
10-18-11, 12:31 PM
The crash story was the first one on CBS news tonight.
just watched last night abc world news with Diane Sawyer.
this was her opening statement with Dan's image and the words "Death of a champion" over her shoulder as background.
good evening,
it was a collision as big and fiery as we've ever seen on live tv in a sports arena. first 1 then 5 then 10 then 15 cars slamming, flying, disintegrating at the hugely popular indycar race in las vegas broadcast by espn.
Shame on abc for not even acknowledging they were airing the race. they did report the official cause of death is blunt force trauma to the head.
r.i.p. dan
Napoleon
10-18-11, 12:55 PM
It was also the lead story on NBC’s nightly news. So it led all 3 major broadcaster’s nightly news coverage.
cameraman
10-18-11, 02:58 PM
The NY Times has the story on the front page and almost the entire page B-16 is the "worries" article and a half page story on Wheldon, "Back Home, Known For a Tragedy, Not Success"
The most column inches the Times has devoted to the IRL in a decade and none of it is good.
Rogue Leader
10-18-11, 03:40 PM
The NY Times has the story on the front page and almost the entire page B-16 is the "worries" article and a half page story on Wheldon, "Back Home, Known For a Tragedy, Not Success"
The most column inches the Times has devoted to the IRL in a decade and none of it is good.
My local Paper Newsday had a front page (on the site) story about it. I didn't see the actual print paper, but they never have a bleep about IndyCar anymore.
And heres an interview we won't agree with, Sam Schmidt says track not to blame:
http://www.indycar.com/news/show/55-izod-indycar-series/50919-schmidt-and-39-he-was-going-for-itand-39/
My gut says Dario retires, maybe TK.
PT Ponders Retirement (http://www.sirius-speedway.com/2011/10/tracy-mulling-retirement-i-saw-him.html)
In the aftermath of Wheldon’s death, Tracy said there is a question he must soon address. “I’m not a 20-year old kid anymore,” he said. “I’ve been doing this for 20 years, and what I saw (Sunday) when they wheeled Dan into that medical unit is something I’ll never forget. I saw him dying in front of my eyes, and that memory is etched into my brain forever.
“I don’t need to drive anymore,” he said “At this point, I’m not in equipment that allows me to win races, anyway. I am doing this purely out of ego. I spend my own money to do it, and I need to ask myself, `Are the risks worth the reward?’
“I think it’s finally time for me to weigh those options and decide if I should look at doing something else.”
I mentioned in another post about drivers being rattled by Moore's death. This seems to be hitting them differently. Older and wiser? Passion lost? Irrelevant series? All the above?
Ed_Severson
10-18-11, 03:52 PM
And heres an interview we won't agree with, Sam Schmidt says track not to blame:
I don't see anything wrong with that statement. There is nothing wrong with Las Vegas Motor Speedway, and the people that run it are not at fault here.
I mentioned in another post about drivers being rattled by Moore's death. This seems to be hitting them differently. Older and wiser? Passion lost? Irrelevant series? All the above?
All of the above, plus they weren't told nor witnessed #99 being wheeled to the helicopter.
-Kevin
Rogue Leader
10-18-11, 04:07 PM
I don't see anything wrong with that statement. There is nothing wrong with Las Vegas Motor Speedway, and the people that run it are not at fault here.
I disagree, 225mph on a track (Indy speeds) a mile shorter than Indy with higher banking. It was like a centrifuge waiting to toss a car into the fence when a collision happens. Its not the speedway ownership/managements fault, it is the Indycar series management's fault for making the cars the way they are and setting the race up to begin with.
Its not SMI's fault, just like a gun shop owner is not at fault when you shoot your toe off because you can't handle the gun he sold you.
I mentioned in another post about drivers being rattled by Moore's death. This seems to be hitting them differently. Older and wiser? Passion lost? Irrelevant series? All the above?
All these guys were in their early 20's when that happened, much different perspective on life and death when you don't have kids/a wife/etc.
Ed_Severson
10-18-11, 04:16 PM
None of that, in any way, points to any kind of flaw with LVMS.
Andrew Longman
10-18-11, 04:16 PM
Irrelevant series? Yes, first. Then all of the above. There was a time when I would have done anything to be in one of those cars. Yes, I'm older with kids and stuff, but the reason to risk death for glory is just not there. Not enough glory plain and simple.
All these guys were in their early 20's when that happened, much different perspective on life and death when you don't have kids/a wife/etc.
Moore's was an accident, pure and simple. Many forget Richie Hearn spun in exactly the same way as Greg and didn't have the same outcome.
The Las Vegas catastrophe was a ticking time-bomb that exploded just when you were lulled into believing it couldn't. And, the series solely placed them in that situation. Just like restarting in the rain on an oval, showing up at a fire without extinguishers...etc. The IRL examples can go on forever.
racer2c
10-18-11, 04:24 PM
Moore's was an accident, pure and simple. Many forget Richie Hearn spun in exactly the same way as Greg and didn't have the same outcome.
The Las Vegas catastrophe was a ticking time-bomb that exploded just when you were lulled into believing it couldn't. And, the series solely placed them in that situation. Just like restarting in the rain on an oval, showing up at a fire without extinguishers...etc. The IRL examples can go on forever.
that's just what my response was while discussing this with a co-worker who said "yeah, but the drivers know and accept the risk". I agreed but said that this was an accident waiting to happen and IndyCar knew the potential catastrophe. That is not what auto-racing is suppose to be about. They were making this a stunt show, not an auto race.
Rogue Leader
10-18-11, 04:31 PM
None of that, in any way, points to any kind of flaw with LVMS.
Theres nothing wrong with LVMS, except that IndyCars shouldn't be running on it. The track was fine before 2006 when even though the speeds were the same (based on whatever records I could find) the banking was not progressive which specifically is for creating side by side racing. Before 2006 you didn't have Indy cars running 3-4 wide on the track all the way around. You don't see that on Indy, when they hit 3 wide its usually briefly for a pass. If NASCAR can teach us anything its that when you run 3 wide one mistake is gonna take out a lot of cars. Not such a big deal when they aren't little feather weight carbon fiber IndyCars.
Lux Interior
10-18-11, 04:33 PM
I think a lot of the seasoned drivers are going to be thinking retirement. I hope the owners of the series are thinking the same thing for the series.
I understand that when you strap in to a race car, you are willingly putting yourself in danger and could possibly be killed. Having said that, Brian Bardhard and Tony Cotman, and Roger Penske and Chip especially, had to know that what they were doing was way beyond acceptable and completely too dangerous.
Of course, considering how the IRL has been run since it was formed, I am not surprised by this. I'm just glad the other 13 drivers were able to walk away from their cars and that more did not get killed or seriously hurt.
Ed_Severson
10-18-11, 04:40 PM
Theres nothing wrong with LVMS, except that IndyCars shouldn't be running on it.
I don't disagree with that at all, which was my original point. The fact that LVMS is not suited to IndyCar does not mean that LVMS is flawed or that they are at fault for this incident.
On a tangential note, I keep seeing people all over the place complain about the fact that there were 34 cars entered in this race, as if this couldn't have happened with the usual 26-car field. The most dangerous aspect of a 34-car field at that place is the size of the pit box it necessitates. Other than that, how many cars started the race is irrelevant.
Rogue Leader
10-18-11, 04:53 PM
I don't disagree with that at all, which was my original point. The fact that LVMS is not suited to IndyCar does not mean that LVMS is flawed or that they are at fault for this incident.
On a tangential note, I keep seeing people all over the place complain about the fact that there were 34 cars entered in this race, as if this couldn't have happened with the usual 26-car field. The most dangerous aspect of a 34-car field at that place is the size of the pit box it necessitates. Other than that, how many cars started the race is irrelevant.
Yes I think we were both saying the same thing. Not the tracks fault the cars don't belong on it.
And yes I also agree on the car count, NASCAR runs 43 cars on there so I don't see how 34 Indy Cars would matter. Many places are harping on that the ones between 26 and 34 were non series regulars.
As Ziggy and others pointed out, the pack racing is the culprit. They need to dump any oval that is not relatively flat, and they need to dump the spec car concept.
racer2c
10-18-11, 08:35 PM
Yes I think we were both saying the same thing. Not the tracks fault the cars don't belong on it.
And yes I also agree on the car count, NASCAR runs 43 cars on there so I don't see how 34 Indy Cars would matter. Many places are harping on that the ones between 26 and 34 were non series regulars.
I would qualify that as ' the current IndyCars' don't belong there.
racer2c
10-18-11, 08:36 PM
"A.J. Foyt and Mario Andretti condemned five-time NASCAR champion Jimmie Johnson and others for calling on IndyCar stop racing on ovals because it was too easy for cars to get airborne.
"I don't think Jimmie Johnson knows what he's talking about," said Foyt, a four-time Indianapolis 500 winner whose name adorns the trophy given to IndyCar's best oval driver. "He's never drove one, and he's pretty stupid to make a statement like that. You could say the same about stock cars. I've drove both, and I've been hurt real bad in both."
http://www.usatoday.com/sports/motor/indycar/story/2011-10-18/Foyt-Andretti-defend-oval-racing-slam-Jimmie-Johnson/50819204/1
JohnHKart
10-18-11, 08:45 PM
I have a question for you guys and this is not meant to be offensive or in poor taste. I've been thinking about how this crash was handled by the personnel after it. (and they did nothing wrong). There didn't seem to be any rush to get Dan to that helicopter, (the way there was with Zanardi) it reminds me of the Dale Earnhardt accident, where the ambulance took it's time to get to the hospital. The picture of Dan on the gurnee seems strange also, he's completely covered. Is it possible this was like the Earnhardt crash, where it was already over and there was no need to rush to get him to the hospital because it was only a formality? (We all know for legal reasons drivers are not declared at the race track.)
racer2c
10-18-11, 08:51 PM
I have a question for you guys and this is not meant to be offensive or in poor taste. I've been thinking about how this crash was handled by the personnel after it. There didn't seem to be any rush to get Dan to that helicopter, (the way there was with Zanardi) it reminds me of the Dale Earnhardt accident, where the ambulance took it's time to get to the hospital. The picture of Dan on the gurnee seems strange also, he's completely covered. Is it possible this was like the Earnhardt crash, where it was already over and there was no need to rush to get him to the hospital because it was only a formality? (We all know for legal reasons drivers are not declared at the race track.)
I think it was like Senna. Like you, i mean no disrespect and hope this doesn't come off as callous but, Probably head trauma from the catch fence that was obviously unrecoverable. The two hours afterward is given for notifying immediate family and paperwork.
Michaelhatesfans
10-18-11, 08:52 PM
I have a question for you guys and this is not meant to be offensive or in poor taste. I've been thinking about how this crash was handled by the personnel after it. (and they did nothing wrong). There didn't seem to be any rush to get Dan to that helicopter, (the way there was with Zanardi) it reminds me of the Dale Earnhardt accident, where the ambulance took it's time to get to the hospital. The picture of Dan on the gurnee seems strange also, he's completely covered. Is it possible this was like the Earnhardt crash, where it was already over and there was no need to rush to get him to the hospital because it was only a formality? (We all know for legal reasons drivers are not declared at the race track.)
Poorly kept trade secret. No one is allowed to die at the race track. That involves coroners and stopping the event.
JohnHKart
10-18-11, 09:00 PM
Yes and in thinking about it like Dale Earnhardt, sadly I don't think it was possible to do any kind of rescue or saving in this accident.
racer2c
10-18-11, 09:03 PM
"F1, others will help investigate Wheldon crash
IndyCar says Formula One's governing body (FIA) and the Automobile Competition Committee of the United States, an umbrella organization of auto racing sanctioning bodies in the United States, will assist in a full investigation of the crash of two-time Indianapolis 500 winner Dan Wheldon.
The series made the announcement Tuesday, saying "the safety of our drivers, their crews, IndyCar staff, racetrack staff and spectators is always our paramount concern."
IndyCar says it hopes to have preliminary findings within several weeks."
Link (http://www.usatoday.com/sports/motor/indycar/story/2011-10-18/las-vegas-indycar-test-canceled/50819192/1)
Michaelhatesfans
10-18-11, 09:07 PM
Yes and in thinking about it like Dale Earnhardt, sadly I don't think it was possible to do any kind of rescue or saving in this accident.
Without saying too much, that's most likely the case.
I have a question for you guys and this is not meant to be offensive or in poor taste. I've been thinking about how this crash was handled by the personnel after it. (and they did nothing wrong). There didn't seem to be any rush to get Dan to that helicopter, (the way there was with Zanardi) it reminds me of the Dale Earnhardt accident, where the ambulance took it's time to get to the hospital. The picture of Dan on the gurnee seems strange also, he's completely covered. Is it possible this was like the Earnhardt crash, where it was already over and there was no need to rush to get him to the hospital because it was only a formality? (We all know for legal reasons drivers are not declared at the race track.)
I suspect it was more like Greg Moore and less like Jeff Krosnoff (or Dale Earnhardt). Krosnoff and Earnhardt were "load and go" situations (in fact, Krosnoff was so clearly gone they did an extra lap of the track with the ambulance while they figured out where the nearest hospital was to have him officially declared dead - with Olvey faking CPR because Jeff's wife was in a car behind the ambulance). In those cases, the driver went from the car directly to the hospital. I'll never forget Dr. Olvey telling TV that Greg was being transported to the hospital for "further recussitive efforts."
If you look closely at the picture, you'll see that they had cut his boots anbd firesuit off of him. His head is likely covered because he had a significant head injury. If you notice, his helmet is with him - so that the treating doctor can see the location and severity of the impact. They were working to save him (this also coincides with Paul Tracy's account that there were a lot of doctors running around in there.)
If I had to guess, his only injury was to his head - so they were trying to keep his body going until a hospital could assess whether or not they could find a way to get his brain to recover.
The series made the announcement Tuesday, saying "the safety of our drivers, their crews, IndyCar staff, racetrack staff and spectators is always our paramount concern.
Bull****.
I hope the FIA takes a flamethrower to the Brickyard and burns it the **** down.
Napoleon
10-19-11, 06:34 AM
. . . until a hospital could assess whether or not they could find a way to get his brain to recover.
Possibly for organ donation also.
Dr. Olvey's book made it clear that you don't die at the track unless you are decapitated or incinerated.
They did appear to be making an aggressive attempt to treat his injuries within the capabilities at the track. While they can surmise (and with reasonable surety) about an obvious head trauma, I don't know if they have the capability to test brain function or injuries.
Does Indycar have the mobile care center from CART or something similar?
Wow JohnHKart, this really must be your first rodeo........
I find it ironic and a bit callous that with this mornings Indy Star they chim into needing "an investigation" because of this accident.
Too bad Renna never won the Indy 500 (twice)
This car has been flying into fences for quite sometime. So much so that the IRL hired an aerodynamicist to turn one sideways in a wind tunnel after Renna's accident. This was the session which brought on the full lenght wind wicker along the top side of the car, along with a slightly reshaped sidepod.
It's no big mystery............. and one of the main reasons fans have stayed away in droves.
ITS THE CAR, ITS THE CAR, ITS THE CAR
always has been
I'm not holding my breath for the new car to be any better. The inmates are running the asylum
How much more eloquent can an explanation be?
Ziggy :thumbup:
racer2c
10-19-11, 10:27 AM
How much more eloquent can an explanation be?
Ziggy :thumbup:
No doubt about it. :thumbup:
It just sucks that it takes a tragedy to get people talking about IndyCars again. Thanks Tony, Barnhardt, Hulman sisters and I'll throw an Agajainian there just for good measure.
Napoleon
10-19-11, 10:33 AM
ITS THE CAR, ITS THE CAR, ITS THE CAR
NPR had Bruce Martin from SI on its morning show (link below to audio) and part of the exchange Martin had mentioned that new cars with new saftey features is going to be used next year. A minute later in response to a question or comment he says "there is nothing wrong with the cars". The interviewer had the presence of mind to say something "wait a second, you told us there is going to be a new safer car - how could there be nothing wrong with the car then".
http://www.npr.org/2011/10/19/141494843/wheldon-crash-should-be-a-wakeup-call-to-racing
Don Quixote
10-19-11, 11:29 AM
I heard Bruce Martin on the radio yesterday talking about this, and you would have guessed that he had never watched an open wheel race in his life.
Napoleon
10-19-11, 11:43 AM
I heard Bruce Martin on the radio yesterday talking about this, and you would have guessed that he had never watched an open wheel race in his life.
To me he almost sounded like a Holman PR flack.
gerhard911
10-19-11, 11:48 AM
To me he almost sounded like a Holman PR flack.
I know you're from Cleveburg but golldang bud :gomer:
And yes, Bruce "Taser" Martin is little more than a Hulman/IMS toadie.
Napoleon
10-19-11, 12:11 PM
I know you're from Cleveburg but golldang bud
I will admit I was not sure of the spelling but too lazy to look it up.
This wasn't the fault of the car either: http://deadspin.com/108815/great-moments-in-participatory-journalism
Don Quixote
10-19-11, 12:29 PM
This wasn't the fault of the car either: http://deadspin.com/108815/great-moments-in-participatory-journalismI had forgotten about that! Didn't IMS let him drive that car as a loaner?
Andrew Longman
10-19-11, 01:07 PM
And yes, Bruce "Taser" Martin is little more than a Hulman/IMS toadie.
This wasn't the fault of the car either: http://deadspin.com/108815/great-moments-in-participatory-journalism
Little more than a Hulman todie?
That's prototypical. He sets the bar.
High Sided
10-19-11, 01:07 PM
Power interview...
http://www.npr.org/2011/10/18/141477176/will-power-talks-about-safety-of-indy-car-racing
SurfaceUnits
10-19-11, 01:07 PM
Lupe wasn't the only Fiasco in Vegas
Andrew Longman
10-19-11, 01:22 PM
Power interview...
http://www.npr.org/2011/10/18/141477176/will-power-talks-about-safety-of-indy-car-racing
You know racing doesn't make NPR that often. I remember sitting in a parking lot waiting to meet a client and hearing an interview with IRRC Olvey about why they cancelled the Texas race. I remember thinking it was actually cool. The cars were too fast for the course. They used science and Olvey and consulted the USAF. And they did the right thing.
No they should never have considered running there, but in the end they did the right thing.
Not hearing that now though. Power was clearly tired and upset though. Melissa Block could have pulled a lot more critical stuff out of him if she wanted to. I'm really wondering how this will actually land with the public. In general people seem tired of NASCAR and racing anyway and there doesn't seem to be a lot of energy for putting up with stuff that is seen as stupid.
If you were a sponsor with an ad budget, would you sign up for this? Would you risk getting fired for this?
Napoleon
10-19-11, 01:32 PM
If you were a sponsor with an ad budget. . . .
And I would think this is about the time of year decisions like what to budget and what to spend it on is being determined.
ITS THE CAR, ITS THE CAR, ITS THE CAR
From Will Power's NPR interview:
You know, our cars fly when we touch wheels and when they fly and they head up towards the catch fence, it's just all bad. I think Vegas is a great circuit and, you know, there's a number of those circuits around that NASCAR race on and they're perfect for those sort of cars, but it's not the right sort of track for the current formula of IndyCar
and
I went over Alex Lloyd and I just flew and I was, you know, thinking, you know, this is my worst nightmare. It's what I've been fearing my whole career. In IndyCars, when the car flies, you know, when I came out of it, I thought, wow, that was real lucky.
:shakehead
Lux Interior
10-19-11, 02:04 PM
And I would think this is about the time of year decisions like what to budget and what to spend it on is being determined.
I wonder what Izod thinks?
cameraman
10-19-11, 03:00 PM
I wonder what Izod thinks?
When has Izod ever been accused of thinking?
not going there.....................
I heard Bruce Martin on the radio yesterday talking about this, and you would have guessed that he had never watched an open wheel race in his life.
This guy was one of the top ten shills back in my viewing/posting days. Way too much has never changed, huh?
Mary
Here's a little more info on the so called $5million prize...
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/othersports/article-2051166/Dan-Wheldons-cut-178-000-Las-Vegas-race.html
SurfaceUnits
10-20-11, 11:50 AM
what an exclamation point on a ****ed up period in racing. hope there is no new paragraph.
The number of cars mattered Sunday. More precisely, with the IRL it has always been the number of gd ridebuyers. All that was missing was Milka Duno and and a dentist
Or the back third of some obscure and unimportant F3 grid..........
PT Radio Interview (http://www.fan590.com/ondemand/media.jsp?content=20111018_170423_9088). Download the file to listen.
Candid comments on how he saw the mayhem unfold, his very close call with the Piippa Mann, car and the chaotic medical centre scene.
This could have been so much worse.
Ted
High Sided
10-22-11, 11:06 AM
paul posted a pic of his helmet...
http://lockerz.com/s/149142420
paul posted a pic of his helmet...
http://lockerz.com/s/149142420
That is seriously frightening. I listened to an interview with PT the other day and he still sounded a bit shook up. That isn't the PT that I know. This definitely has changed his view a bit.
SurfaceUnits
10-23-11, 01:14 PM
the dramar queen has her life set
Originally Posted by ababe28 Ann B
@IndyCar used frequent flyer miles to get us to the race. My sister almost could not get home. what up?
http://twitter.com/#!/ababe28
cameraman
10-23-11, 02:13 PM
Wow. On so many different levels, wow.
:shakehead
Insomniac
10-23-11, 04:14 PM
the dramar queen has her life set
Originally Posted by ababe28 Ann B
@IndyCar used frequent flyer miles to get us to the race. My sister almost could not get home. what up?
http://twitter.com/#!/ababe28
I'm sure you can find plenty of stuff like that on Twitter. That doesn't seem like anything new.
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