View Full Version : So does Bernard get fired?
Pages :
1
2
[
3]
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
IIRC, these idiots made the cars cockpit wider in the name of safety. This goes against all engineering wisdom, more room to bang around, more structures held with fasteners, etc.
Ed works in the "industry"? Really? In what capacity?
The problem again, after all the wrangling, is the fact that car has a known history to fly into the fences. Coupled with the fact that the slowest car can hold up the fastest car as long as it is the slower cars driver aim to do so, and you have a recipe for disaster.
and I agree with the poster on his take of the new car, as it was designed with status quo in mind, meaning the pack racing. The rear body work is just to cut down on the frequency of the fliers.
and knowing several of the nut and bolt types in the "Industry", their take is that this body work will no survive the 2012 season for a multitude of reasons (and I'm talking about the rear sponsons) exposure to damage, extensive clean up, frequency of said damage and cleanup, and finally cost.
Dallarah should have never even been considered, it was a kick back deal from day one. The car is a sod, the things that were required to be fixed upon their first inception are ledgendary and comical.
and the comments of "that other" forum of late are a great indicator of what a group of bumbling idiots the Earl management are playing to.
Might have been me on another forum in regards to an Open Wheel car having rear wheel coverings, fenders.:shakehead It's obvious they want to continue racing on high banked ovals.
How about "Vacuous"?
The IRL as an entity is dead. No vapor on the glass.
I still wouldn't put the idea of Penske and GE Capital not buying the IMS.
Penske is a phenomenal businessman, but there's something about the IMS that makes him a little unstable.
BTW, has Smack-forum gone nipples up?
Ain't that the truth! I remember seeing a photo of him and his team after his first IRL Indy 500 win. He had a look on his face that was somewhere between rapture and awe (or like he had way too much to drink and was 'lit'). It was almost like he couldn't believe this had happened for him again.
At the time, it turned me off more than ever.
Mary
He's the one person that could have united CART to allow it to prevail over tg & 16th and Jonestown.
stroker
10-23-11, 04:21 PM
Serious question--has anyone ever written a legitimate, straight-shooting biography of RP?
Local media reporting that Ropin Randy has asked that all the drivers meet with him on Monday. Optional meeting, and closed to media.
And now, time for my editorial: the danger/possibility of death and serious injury are absolutely part of the gomer marketing plan. It's pathetic, and it's real. It's pretty bad when the biggest story of the year in your sport is a senseless death and the ensuing debate on what a POS the wagon is how it flies and caused this carnage. This isn't 1922. We have the knowledge and can avoid this stupidity. F1 has evolved sensibly and they have a fraction of the injuries and deaths that the IRL does. We let the IMS be in chagre and this is what you get: crappy cars, no respect, ride buyers, a revolving parade of marketing strategies (that have all failed) serious injuries and death, no fans, no TV viewers, and all in the name of preserving Indy. I say shut the damn thing down, admit your drove it into the ground, and let the the sport heal and start over.
Man up Randy, and just walk away. Don't get sucked I to the koolaid.:thumdown::flame::thumdown:
Yes.
History as shown they'll happily piss every one of those things away in order to ensure absolute fealty and job security for their underqualified high-school buddies, lackies and sycophants.
That's pretty much it, the whole thing.
Andrew Longman
10-23-11, 09:01 PM
That's pretty much it, the whole thing.
Ironic thing is, or whatever you want to call it, the France family-mafia has been running NASCAR about the same way for years.
Two differences though...
Those gomers always wanted to run a series, not a single race
They were lucky or smart enough to take the advice RJ Reynolds gave about how to market the series and manage sponsorship -- and RJ Reynolds effectively (due to the tobacco TV ad ban) was motivated to throw ridiculous amounts of money at them.
Oh... and TG decided to blow up NASCAR's top competition just when the sport was poised to take off.
Spicoli
10-23-11, 10:35 PM
Ironic thing is, or whatever you want to call it, the France family-mafia has been running NASCAR about the same way for years.
Two differences though...
Those gomers always wanted to run a series, not a single race
They were lucky or smart enough to take the advice RJ Reynolds gave about how to market the series and manage sponsorship -- and RJ Reynolds effectively (due to the tobacco TV ad ban) was motivated to throw ridiculous amounts of money at them.
Oh... and TG decided to blow up NASCAR's top competition just when the sport was poised to take off.
TG was/is too stupid to have understood what was about to happen. He got played by the France family and drained the family fortune at the same time. The exercise of his never ending parade of idiotic marketing strategies hoping he would one day find the magic bullet was comedy gold for me. In retrospect, it is really sad as we watched the Gomer in Chief destroy the sport.
I have no respect for any of the participants in the sport today as they have bought into the indy mafia's "visions". It's flawed, it's stupid, it's not safe, and finally it's just not relevant to all but a handful of gomers. When the family finally says uncle and comes to the conclusion they are never going to fix this thing, we can move forward. Who knows what it will look like.
My bet? Randy won't quit. PT and a couple others walk awY, and the Hulman George family will sell. Speedway is a ghost town these days....
miatanut
10-24-11, 01:13 AM
Shouldn't we be talking about BBQ or hard drives or something?
Tonight for dinner I warmed up a half chicken I smoked a few weeks ago in our WSM. It was still better than any chicken I've had in any restaurant.
I've learned a ton about BBQ here. Especially from OC. Miss him. :(
IndyCar boss faces scrutiny after death of Dan Wheldon (http://www.latimes.com/sports/la-sp-indycar-wheldon-bernard-20111024,0,4070190.story)
The in-car interview with Wheldon at that day at Vegas is tough.
He mentions "putting on a good show" or such. We seem to hear that more and more from the IRL. Just when did they stop talking about winning, making good starts, etc and start talking about a show for the fans?? I know it predates Bernard.
I cringe each time I hear "a good show for the fans" OR (more recently) read a post by a driver who says "you are the reason we do this". Please don't race on my account. I want to see drivers who want to win, who race for their own love it. I don't care about "the show": post race fireworks, silly prize $, two-seat cars, guest drivers (I'll include that recent deal with the Aussie Supercars), fabricated side by side racing.
There are lots of great reasons to race - and done properly the people will watch. But when you race for me or for the show, the racing sucks.
opinionated ow
10-24-11, 07:17 AM
There are lots of great reasons to race - and done properly the people will watch. But when you race for me or for the show, the racing sucks.
I concur. Sport is entertaining, it is NOT entertainment. I hate hearing athletes say they are in the entertainment business. They are not. They are in the sport business, it just happens to be that many of us find sport entertaining. Don't change the sport to cope with this current spate of short attention spans!
The funny thing is that there is so much good advice on this thread that it could be mined and used to resurrect the sport. But the owners remain obstinately stupid and irrational. :shakehead
racer2c
10-24-11, 09:12 AM
IndyCar boss faces scrutiny after death of Dan Wheldon (http://www.latimes.com/sports/la-sp-indycar-wheldon-bernard-20111024,0,4070190.story)
The in-car interview with Wheldon at that day at Vegas is tough.
He mentions "putting on a good show" or such. We seem to hear that more and more from the IRL. Just when did they stop talking about winning, making good starts, etc and start talking about a show for the fans?? I know it predates Bernard.
I cringe each time I hear "a good show for the fans" OR (more recently) read a post by a driver who says "you are the reason we do this". Please don't race on my account. I want to see drivers who want to win, who race for their own love it. I don't care about "the show": post race fireworks, silly prize $, two-seat cars, guest drivers (I'll include that recent deal with the Aussie Supercars), fabricated side by side racing.
There are lots of great reasons to race - and done properly the people will watch. But when you race for me or for the show, the racing sucks.
Excellent post. :thumbup: It's the NASCAR mentality and it blows.
From day one the IRL has tried to succeed by providing gimmickry instead of substance. This gimmick may or may not have cost Wheldon his life, but I go back to my basic point: The IRL is not worth it. Just let it die.
extramundane
10-24-11, 10:35 AM
Kirby piece (http://www.gordonkirby.com/categories/columns/theway/2011/the_way_it_is_no309.html)
"The thing that really aggravates and upsets me," Ashmore growls, "is IndyCar are touting and telling the world that they've made a big change with the new car that will solve all the problems they've got now. But they've really made only a small blip, a very small step of probably five percent from where they are now. They think they've made a 100 percent change, but in fact they've made at best a five percent change.
"The problem is they're going to have the same accident again. It might be the first race of 2012 or it might take six years, but that same set of circumstances will happen again. They think they've solved it by scrapping all this equipment and making everybody buy new equipment. But they haven't solved the problem."
Unless Kirby reads or contributes here, as well as Ashmore or Cannon, 99% of us here (and around the world) are spot on with analysis.
The other 1%? Hulmanista bootlickers and Indy placefans. Sickening that the 1% could be so ignorant and yet control the sport. F all of them. :thumdown:
Kirby piece (http://www.gordonkirby.com/categories/columns/theway/2011/the_way_it_is_no309.html)
What would Ashmore know about designing a race car? :rolleyes::tony:
No doubt folks at TF will say it is sour grapes on his part.
Bruce Ashmore has more than thirty years experience as a race car engineer and designer. He was Lola's chief Indy car designer from 1988-'93 during Lola's most successful years in CART, then joined Reynard as the company's American development engineer for seven years through Reynard's spell as CART's dominant car builder.
In 2009 Ashmore formed BAT Engineering with Alan Mertens and Tim Wardrop to design a new Indy car, competing against Dallara, Lola, Swift and Delta Wing for the contract to build IndyCar's 2012 car. Ashmore is frustrated with what he considers IndyCar's low level of technical awareness and inability to find the right formula.
“When Pippa drove over the side of me she went right across my face and it ripped the steering wheel out of my hand. Another couple of inches and it would have ripped my head off.”...
“I know racing is dangerous and I know people get killed,” he said. “But this car has had an inherent problem for eight years of taking off and flying. And the driver’s head is 80 per cent more exposed in the new car. We lost a great guy last weekend and I hope they work harder to make sure it doesn’t happen again.”
Posted without comment. MorAn.
Kirby - Tracy (http://www.motorsportmagazine.co.uk/2011/10/21/tracy-voices-indycar-concerns/)
Posted without comment. MorAn.
Kirby - Tracy (http://www.motorsportmagazine.co.uk/2011/10/21/tracy-voices-indycar-concerns/)
I guess I don't understand what you're getting at, Chief. I don't see a lot there that I disagree with other than he puts it a little more softly than I would if I were in his shoes.
Not directed at Kirby...Tracy's admission that everything has been known for 8 years yet IMS/the drivers went along like everything was ok, it amazes me. And they're gonna try again to get away with it.
It just struck me....5 months out from the 2012 hitting the track and they just retired the POS old crapwagon...they are F****ED. The new car is quickly being indicted as not safe enough and needing further development. The drivers are in an uproar...
Will there be a 2012 season is what I'm thinking right now....
Not directed at Kirby...Tracy's admission that everything has been known for 8 years yet IMS/the drivers went along like everything was ok, it amazes me. And they're gonna try again to get away with it.
It just struck me....5 months out from the 2012 hitting the track and they just retired the POS old crapwagon...they are F****ED. The new car is quickly being indicted as not safe enough and needing further development. The drivers are in an uproar...
Will there be a 2012 season is what I'm thinking right now....
I guess I can agree with that other than I've heard plenty of the drivers say over the past five years that they don't feel safe.
I'm totally with you on them being royally screwed right now.
I think there will be a season but I'm not sure what the schedule will look like. I think the ovals are going to have to change.
racer2c
10-24-11, 01:01 PM
If I were Randy Bernard, I would immediately hold a press conference to announce that IndyCar is shutting its doors for at least a year to redesign and test a proper car, a car that is built on input from all invested parties.
I would convey to the press that safety is paramount to IndyCar, not the 'show' and that the creation of a new car that everyone is comfortable with along with choosing the correct tracks to run on is priority 1. I would emphatically confess the faults of the series throughout its existence and ask the fans that, upon their return, believe that the focus, mentality and even personnel if necessary, has changed in order to achieve the new mission.
Gomers be damned.
In lieu of the Indy 500 while they put the wheels of change in motion, I would buy an hour of TV dedicated to the remembrance of the drivers who have lost their lives and those injured.
Wishful thinking, I know.
Dans death may have made Randy realize he's in over his head. A race series should be run by someone who has a long and successful career in auto-racing. Let the marketing department handle the commercials.
“No, it's not the track, not the speeds,” continues Unser, who helped lead IndyCar into the stratosphere of speed with his development, and engineering efforts on the Gurney Eagles of the early 1970s, “it's the cars."....
“I had a sit down with Randy Bernard, and told him, ‘Listen to what the fans want. That's what we have to do. It doesn't matter what you want, or Bobby Unser wants. It's what the fans want.'
Bobby Unser nails it (http://www.racer.com/bobby-unser-blames-formula-for-wheldon-accident/article/214963/)
Rogue Leader
10-24-11, 01:16 PM
If I were Randy Bernard, I would immediately hold a press conference to announce that IndyCar is shutting its doors for at least a year to redesign and test a proper car, a car that is built on input from all invested parties.
I would convey to the press that safety is paramount to IndyCar, not the 'show' and that the creation of a new car that everyone is comfortable with along with choosing the correct tracks to run on is priority 1. I would emphatically confess the faults of the series throughout its existence and ask the fans that, upon their return, believe that the focus, mentality and even personnel if necessary, has changed in order to achieve the new mission.
Gomers be damned.
In lieu of the Indy 500 while they put the wheels of change in motion, I would buy an hour of TV dedicated to the remembrance of the drivers who have lost their lives and those injured.
Wishful thinking, I know.
Dans death may have made Randy realize he's in over his head. A race series should be run by someone who has a long and successful career in auto-racing. Let the marketing department handle the commercials.
This will never ever happen. Its way too pie in the sky, and honestly I wouldn't want it to happen for 1 reason. Indy Car Racing would never come back.
A year later everyone would have moved on, gotten over it and cared even less. Look at what happened to the NHL which had a WAY larger fanbase than Indy Car ever did (not including ChampCar days)
racer2c
10-24-11, 01:25 PM
This will never ever happen. Its way too pie in the sky, and honestly I wouldn't want it to happen for 1 reason. Indy Car Racing would never come back.
A year later everyone would have moved on, gotten over it and cared even less. Look at what happened to the NHL which had a WAY larger fanbase than Indy Car ever did (not including ChampCar days)
Total pie in the sky indeed, but more realistic to me than dreaming up plexiglass barriers and cockpit canopies. :gomer:
Its too late to fix the '12 car and that car isn't enough of a change. The obvious solution is to simply drop all the ovals except Indy (keeping their fingers crossed that they can get through that race). They can't make make teams buy the '12 car and then a brand new car in '13.
Perhaps dropping the ovals, keep the current car and build the right one for '13. Or let me rephrase that, build the right 'formula' and let multiple car builders back in.
As for people coming back? Hell, there ain't no one there now dude.;)
What about the only ovahl that matters...that one too? Drop it from 2012???? :laugh:
racer2c
10-24-11, 01:42 PM
What about the only ovahl that matters...that one too? Drop it from 2012???? :laugh:
Who would miss it?:tony:
but the Dallarah factory is the lynchpin of "re-develope Speedway". Them being chosen for the "new" car was a farce from day one. They are going to provide at least twenty jobs.
Like my friend BiF said, "when you crash one you can run across the street and pick out a new one"
The new car was designed for pack racing, and the side sponsons are there to minimize the wheel to wheel contact.
They should give out shields and butterfly nets as well.
datachicane
10-24-11, 02:33 PM
Bobby Unser nails it (http://www.racer.com/bobby-unser-blames-formula-for-wheldon-accident/article/214963/)
Go Uncle Bobby!
Too bad the Hulmans have repeated proven that they don't have it in them to recognize anything outside of their own skulls.
Brings to mind the death of Samuel Wilberforce after a fall from his horse, and Huxley's famous quote: "Wilberforce's brains had at last come into contact with reality, and the result had been fatal."
Napoleon
10-24-11, 02:50 PM
Brings to mind the death of Samuel Wilberforce after a fall from his horse, and Huxley's famous quote: "Wilberforce's brains had at last come into contact with reality, and the result had been fatal."
:rofl:
No wonder he was called Darwin's bulldog.
Go Uncle Bobby!
:thumbup:
How many read this with the Bobby Unser voice playing in their head? :D
Bobby Unser nails it (http://www.racer.com/bobby-unser-blames-formula-for-wheldon-accident/article/214963/)
He just stole that stuff from here. :shakehead
:)
stroker
10-24-11, 03:05 PM
so how many '95 Reynards are there OUT there? Really?
racer2c
10-24-11, 03:18 PM
so how many '95 Reynards are there OUT there? Really?
Not sure but there was a post sometime within the last few years from a race dude who said they would be waaaaay to 'loose' to ever race outside of a historics event. Something about the carbon fiber weave loosens at critical structure points. I'd be surprised if the DP01's could even be used.
I am honestly on on the edge of my seat to see how this plays out, but I know it wont to any of our satisfaction. It is the IRL after all.
Racing Truth
10-24-11, 03:27 PM
Kirby piece (http://www.gordonkirby.com/categories/columns/theway/2011/the_way_it_is_no309.html)
From Ashmore:
"You can come up with a package with a lot less downforce for any mile and a half track that's banked fifteen degrees or less and make a more interesting race out of it. But once you get to eighteen or more degrees, like Michigan, California, Texas and Vegas, I don't know how you're going to do that with an Indy car. I don't think Indy cars should run on those tracks."
Anyone care to point out the FAIL in that quote?
Cannon is, of course, right on.:thumbup: Ashmore's obviously brilliant, but his BAT concept was almost universally panned as cartoonishly ridiculous and he seems, er, bitter. The Swift folks SHOULD be bitter, not BAT.
EDIT: Others have pointed out. though, that the new Dallara kinda ripped off BAT, which sucks, but if so, HIS idea, by his logic, sucked too.
Michaelhatesfans
10-24-11, 03:33 PM
:thumbup:
How many read this with the Bobby Unser voice playing in their head? :D
My Bobby voiceover is only activated when the sentence begins with, "No, Sam....."
Racing Truth
10-24-11, 03:42 PM
WIBC report, with audio, on the meeting today. (http://www.wibc.com/news/Story.aspx?ID=1560554)
Guess Dario's not retiring yet.
Spicoli
10-24-11, 03:52 PM
WIBC report, with audio, on the meeting today. (http://www.wibc.com/news/Story.aspx?ID=1560554)
Guess Dario's not retiring yet.
They are part of the problem. Who ever said they had any brains. Stupid gomer drivers.:shakehead
EDIT: Others have pointed out. though, that the new Dallara kinda ripped off BAT, which sucks, but if so, HIS idea, by his logic, sucked too.
If you create a set of criteria aimed to create suckage then suckage is what you'll get.
Al Czervik
10-24-11, 04:16 PM
Michigan & California > 1.5 miles, California < 18 deg
From Ashmore:
"You can come up with a package with a lot less downforce for any mile and a half track that's banked fifteen degrees or less and make a more interesting race out of it. But once you get to eighteen or more degrees, like Michigan, California, Texas and Vegas, I don't know how you're going to do that with an Indy car. I don't think Indy cars should run on those tracks."
Anyone care to point out the FAIL in that quote?
Cannon is, of course, right on.:thumbup: Ashmore's obviously brilliant, but his BAT concept was almost universally panned as cartoonishly ridiculous and he seems, er, bitter. The Swift folks SHOULD be bitter, not BAT.
EDIT: Others have pointed out. though, that the new Dallara kinda ripped off BAT, which sucks, but if so, HIS idea, by his logic, sucked too.
manic mechanic
10-24-11, 05:21 PM
From Ashmore:
"But once you get to eighteen or more degrees, like Michigan, California, Texas and Vegas"
Anyone care to point out the FAIL in that quote?
Certainly... California is only banked 14 degrees. :p
Racing Truth
10-24-11, 06:11 PM
Certainly... California is only banked 14 degrees. :p
You and Al got it.:thumbup:
And his recollections of MIS seem... distorted to me.
opinionated ow
10-24-11, 08:07 PM
You and Al got it.:thumbup:
And his recollections of MIS seem... distorted to me.
Yep. Michigan is fine because the radius of the corners is large
SurfaceUnits
10-24-11, 09:46 PM
From Ashmore:
Anyone care to point out the FAIL in that quote?
yeah, he left out a few dozen other tracks that IRLcars shouldn't run on
gerhard911
10-24-11, 10:18 PM
yeah, he left out a few dozen other tracks that IRLcars shouldn't run on
Name a track, any track. The crapwagons are either, too fast, too slow, too boring, too dangerous, too loud, too obnoxious, too whatever. They shouldn't run anywhere.
Name a track, any track. The crapwagons are either, too fast, too slow, too boring, too dangerous, too loud, too obnoxious, too whatever. They shouldn't run anywhere.
Here, here! :thumbup:
Do the drivers even remember what driving a real race car is like, and could they even articulate it to the slag running the IRL or the kickback chassis manu's? I hate the Speedway for 2011 and the miserable 15 years of IRL existence, we need this again, not manufactured faux racing:
NNuYvwFkB7A
grungex
10-24-11, 11:01 PM
Did you notice how Michael's car failed to take flight despite driving up onto Villeneuve's rear tire at 5:10? Imagine that.
racer2c
10-24-11, 11:07 PM
Here, here! :thumbup:
Do the drivers even remember what driving a real race car is like, and could they even articulate it to the slag running the IRL or the kickback chassis manu's? I hate the Speedway for 2011 and the miserable 15 years of IRL existence, we need this again, not manufactured faux racing:
NNuYvwFkB7A
Dario and tk? Maybe. PT? Yes. All others...no. Sad.
Oh, and I was at the Cleveland race in '95. Thanks for the memory. It sharpens the knife tg thrust in all of our backs.
I have never seen this angle nor heard the audio of this. Where has this passion gone? Can this passion be translated to a meaningful AOW series in the future, or has it all been lost?
pNOyDe4ugrw
Kiwifan
10-25-11, 12:24 AM
Chief, one night when you are walking down a dark alley some Champ Car fan is going to whack you with a lead pipe. You know that don't ya?
What a race. Thanks man, thanks. :thumbup:
Andrew Longman
10-25-11, 01:10 AM
Excellent post. :thumbup: It's the NASCAR mentality and it blows. x2 :thumbup:
Andrew Longman
10-25-11, 01:19 AM
:thumbup:
How many read this with the Bobby Unser voice playing in their head? :D
STOP!!! It's driving me crazy that I actually agree with anything any Unser is saying.
[SUBSTITUTE: My grandmother could drive these crapwagons... or something for Unser voice]
manic mechanic
10-25-11, 01:47 AM
Name a track, any track. The crapwagons are either, too fast, too slow, too boring, too dangerous, too loud, too obnoxious, too whatever. They shouldn't run anywhere.
Let's see:
Very few "too fasts"...
Cosistent "too (add modifier here)" for everywhere else.
Agreed on the conclusion.
Dear Mr. Bernard,
The ticket buying public have tired of your overly simplified and dangerous sham.. It's true that ISC has had major influence on your "dumbed down" product, but it's time to address the problem:
IT'S THE PRODUCT, STUPID!!!
Yeah, I know... rocket science... ''^''
manic
manic mechanic
10-25-11, 02:01 AM
I have never seen this angle nor heard the audio of this. Where has this passion gone? Can this passion be translated to a meaningful AOW series in the future, or has it all been lost?
pNOyDe4ugrw
Dood,
me, traylabasura, and CJ watched that fight from the opposite grandstand... None of us had cameras rolling (I saw it through binox),and CJ was aghast and didn't have her "small" camera.
This passion is still there with some drivers, but most have been reduced to "paycheck racing". All of them I talked to at LBGP this year agreed they needed a better horse, but were "handcuffed by current administration/rules".
manic
Whether the PT/AT knockdown, Cleveland, or even Power's double bird flipping - none of those guys was thinking about "the show". Not fabricated tension like the Dario/Will thing this year - such BS. :shakehead
Speaking of cars taking flight - this one came to mind. I am sure you can argue that speed was the limiting factor, but even with the angle of attack, the car doesn't fly.
IW_4QaRRYVw
Bobby Unser nails it (http://www.racer.com/bobby-unser-blames-formula-for-wheldon-accident/article/214963/)
Seems uncle Bobby has changed his tune from last week. :confused:
http://www.abqjournal.com/sports/2011/10/18/unsers-say-racing-is-safer-than-ever.html
Right now, safety is really, really good in racing,” he said. “They just need to get rid of ethenol.”
Insomniac
10-25-11, 09:07 AM
I have never seen this angle nor heard the audio of this. Where has this passion gone? Can this passion be translated to a meaningful AOW series in the future, or has it all been lost?
To be fair, that "passion" was a result of PT doing something incredibly stupid and dangerous.
Rogue Leader
10-25-11, 09:36 AM
To be fair, that "passion" was a result of PT doing something incredibly stupid and dangerous.
There was a lot of passion over the years driven by PT doing something stupid and dangerous!
racer2c
10-25-11, 09:39 AM
There was a lot of passion over the years driven by PT doing something stupid and dangerous!
Driven would be a great name for movie set in the racing world. Uh, wait a sec...never mind. :D
Chief, one night when you are walking down a dark alley some Champ Car fan is going to whack you with a lead pipe. You know that don't ya?
What a race. Thanks man, thanks. :thumbup:
I know...I have to look back to see the passion that I had for the sport, what has been lost, and why we're still arguing all of the points we know are right.
When I compare it to today, I'm embarrassed and angry that the evolution of the sport has become such a half-assed reach around, run and driven by wankers...pathetic because everytime they get a chance to fix it, the arrogance of the speedway degrades it another several notches. The 2012 Dallara is a perfect example.
racer2c
10-25-11, 10:37 AM
So what did benard tell the drivers yesterday? Anyone listen to the audio?
So what did benard tell the drivers yesterday? Anyone listen to the audio?
Everybody is being pretty tight lipped about it.
Insomniac
10-25-11, 10:42 AM
Did you notice how Michael's car failed to take flight despite driving up onto Villeneuve's rear tire at 5:10? Imagine that.
It's a horrible car, but an IndyCar wouldn't take flight there either. There's more than enough examples/problems, no need to exaggerate.
TKGAngel
10-25-11, 10:53 AM
So what did benard tell the drivers yesterday? Anyone listen to the audio?
No idea, but Dario reveals (http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/C/CAR_INDYCAR_WHELDON_FRANCHITTI?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT) that there was a 3-hour new car driver focus group immediately after the RB meeting.
And from the "stop me if you've heard this before" files, Will Power has a compression fracture of a vertabrae but should be ready for 2012.
Here, here! :thumbup:
Do the drivers even remember what driving a real race car is like, and could they even articulate it to the slag running the IRL or the kickback chassis manu's? I hate the Speedway for 2011 and the miserable 15 years of IRL existence, we need this again, not manufactured faux racing:
NNuYvwFkB7A
Damn you!!!
Not only was the racing superior, but the TV production kicked anything we have today to the curb. You suck, Chief!!! :D
So, the big drivers meeting turned out to be just getting the ducks in row, airing some concerns, and putting faith in Randy Bernard.
So, Bernard, Barnhart and the drivers appear to be in solidarity. Things that make ya go hmmmm...:shakehead
TravelGal
10-25-11, 02:03 PM
And from the "stop me if you've heard this before" files, Will Power has a compression fracture of a vertabrae but should be ready for 2012.
And they are going to "try" to do reconstructive surgery to rebuild the right side of Pippa Mann's right hand.
I don't swear often but when I do swear, I swear at the IRL.
Spicoli
10-25-11, 02:59 PM
So, the big drivers meeting turned out to be just getting the ducks in row, airing some concerns, and putting faith in Randy Bernard.
So, Bernard, Barnhart and the drivers appear to be in solidarity. Things that make ya go hmmmm...:shakehead
What else are they going to do? Do you think any of these guys are all of a sudden going to get offers in F1 or NASCAR or ALMS?:rofl:
Accorse knot.
They are in the IRL cause they are either too old, not talented enough, don't have any sponsor money, or just plain suck the hulmanista teet (see Ed; Sepcial.)
They are part of the problem. People deserve the government they permit.:rolleyes:
And from the "stop me if you've heard this before" files, Will Power has a compression fracture of a vertabrae but should be ready for 2012.
unbelievable. :shakehead
CBS morning show had a report on Wheldon's service and a quote from Dario. After all the PR spin though, the reporter focused on the car and the quality of the drivers. Something along the lines of, "make the car harder to drive and the drivers won't be bunched up."
Hallelujah.
cameraman
10-25-11, 04:07 PM
The 28-year-old British racer reported on Twitter on Tuesday that she needs "replacement blood vessels, nerves [and] stealing a tendon from my wrist and a skin graft!"
That's a new one...replacement blood vessels. :confused:
That's a new one...replacement blood vessels. :confused:
Nerves??!??
I didn't know they could do that.
Napoleon
10-25-11, 05:40 PM
That's a new one...replacement blood vessels. :confused:
I have heard of that before. They will take some from somewhere else, like a calve and move it.
Racing Truth
10-25-11, 08:26 PM
What else are they going to do? Do you think any of these guys are all of a sudden going to get offers in F1 or NASCAR or ALMS?:rofl:
Accorse knot.
They are in the IRL cause they are either too old, not talented enough, don't have any sponsor money, or just plain suck the hulmanista teet (see Ed; Sepcial.)
They are part of the problem. People deserve the government they permit.:rolleyes:
It's a good thing you included the (deserved) Special Ed blast. Otherwise, there'd be nothing accurate in your post.
Honestly, you don't think ALMS (or Grand-Am) would immediately bring on the top 1/3 or 1/2 of the IndyCar field? B/c I'm pretty sure they would ASAP. Of course, I think some folks here wayyyyy overvalue a series that can only be seen live on ESPN3 too. B/c nothing says elite like 2-hr. highlight shows on ABC.:gomer:
On the NASCAR thing, really Spiccles? One open-wheel driver has made that transition truly successful (Robby Gordon's nowhere outside of Sonoma and WG): Tony Stewart. And, of course, his USAC background made him more prepared for NASCAR than any definition of an IndyCar, so I'm not sure I'd count that. I do, though, still have guarded hopes for AJA.
Point: It's too d@mn hard for anyone from an OW formula background to make it in stock car, and unless you're Sparklepony, I don't think many OW drivers would now really want to anyhow. They're OW formula drivers. Period.
As for F1, got me, I guess. Never mind that the factors that need to align (skill, $$$$$, and good fortune) to get an F1 seat are, err, hard to align at once. Nevermind that, on r/s courses, I think Will Power, for one, has the skill needed to compete in F1, though his personality would never survive.
You are right, to be fair, in this: There are no Villeneuves, Zanardis or Montoyas in the OW pipeline. That is a loss that is certainly attributable to TG and the split.
Like it or not, 90+% of that field is happy to be in IndyCar, management (TGBB) issues notwithstanding. And while the field's nowhere near '93-95, it's also higher quality than, oh, 5 yrs. ago, IMHO.
Here, here! :thumbup:
Do the drivers even remember what driving a real race car is like, and could they even articulate it to the slag running the IRL or the kickback chassis manu's? I hate the Speedway for 2011 and the miserable 15 years of IRL existence, we need this again, not manufactured faux racing:
NNuYvwFkB7A
Here's the problem - I remember ABC (don't remember who) interviewing A.J. Foyt after his driver (Cheever?) was out of the race. He commented that this wasn't racing and that all they were doing was "out-braking each other.... I can still do that." Really :rolleyes:
Incredibly, they hated this. Absolutely hated it. They thought that CART was wrongheaded and they were disgusted by the on-track product. They didn't think this was real racing. They truly believe that having everyone stuck together like a giant amoeba circling the track side-by-side in cheap but fast low-tech junk, is racing nirvana.
As long as the Hulman-Georges are around nothing will change, IMO.
Mary
cameraman
10-25-11, 09:20 PM
Nerves??!??
I didn't know they could do that.
There is more than one for each finger so you grab one from an adjacent finger and reroute it. Then you have to relearn how to use it.
Her finger must have been seriously thrashed.:shakehead
Michaelhatesfans
10-25-11, 09:35 PM
And another marketing triumph - front page of the National Enquirer! Well done. The tag line next to the photo of Wheldon's airborne car was a nice touch, as well, "Terrified Danica QUITTING."
Trevor Longman
10-25-11, 10:01 PM
:laugh: :rolleyes: :shakehead
Spicoli
10-25-11, 11:17 PM
It's a good thing you included the (deserved) Special Ed blast. Otherwise, there'd be nothing accurate in your post.
Honestly, you don't think ALMS (or Grand-Am) would immediately bring on the top 1/3 or 1/2 of the IndyCar field? B/c I'm pretty sure they would ASAP. Of course, I think some folks here wayyyyy overvalue a series that can only be seen live on ESPN3 too. B/c nothing says elite like 2-hr. highlight shows on ABC.:gomer:
On the NASCAR thing, really Spiccles? One open-wheel driver has made that transition truly successful (Robby Gordon's nowhere outside of Sonoma and WG): Tony Stewart. And, of course, his USAC background made him more prepared for NASCAR than any definition of an IndyCar, so I'm not sure I'd count that. I do, though, still have guarded hopes for AJA.
Point: It's too d@mn hard for anyone from an OW formula background to make it in stock car, and unless you're Sparklepony, I don't think many OW drivers would now really want to anyhow. They're OW formula drivers. Period.
As for F1, got me, I guess. Never mind that the factors that need to align (skill, $$$$$, and good fortune) to get an F1 seat are, err, hard to align at once. Nevermind that, on r/s courses, I think Will Power, for one, has the skill needed to compete in F1, though his personality would never survive.
You are right, to be fair, in this: There are no Villeneuves, Zanardis or Montoyas in the OW pipeline. That is a loss that is certainly attributable to TG and the split.
Like it or not, 90+% of that field is happy to be in IndyCar, management (TGBB) issues notwithstanding. And while the field's nowhere near '93-95, it's also higher quality than, oh, 5 yrs. ago, IMHO.
Mmmm. OK.
Reread what you wrote. You agreed with me. They are in the IRL and want to stay there because NOBODY WANTS THEM.:rofl:
Andrew Longman
10-26-11, 01:42 AM
Here's the problem - Maybe so. And why I even as a kid instinctively rooted against AJ.
And I think of today all the dudes who hate watching/racing the two NASCAR road courses but the WG race especially is almost always their best race of the year.
And Mario and other have long emphasized that CART road courses were the best attended races every year from the beginning.
I am sure that underlying AJ's disdain for the road courses was his resentment of faggy Europeans with funny mustaches.
It all sort of boils down to the Civil War never really ending, doesn't it? From politics (not going to go there) to racing, it is about a culture clash. From the racing side of it, it has been about deep-fried southern good-old-boy racing vs. the Euro-style favored in the North. Of course the southerners have won, killing everything except for the sports cars, and they are on their deathbed. Because of Indiana's heavily rural population, USAC types have always had more in common with A.J. than with anyone associated with European formulas. So accorse ovals draw more fans than road courses, because that's the way delusional hicks want it to be.
Lux Interior
10-26-11, 07:45 AM
I am sure that underlying AJ's disdain for the road courses was his resentment of faggy Europeans with funny mustaches.
It all sort of boils down to the Civil War never really ending, doesn't it? From politics (not going to go there) to racing, it is about a culture clash. From the racing side of it, it has been about deep-fried southern good-old-boy racing vs. the Euro-style favored in the North. Of course the southerners have won, killing everything except for the sports cars, and they are on their deathbed. Because of Indiana's heavily rural population, USAC types have always had more in common with A.J. than with anyone associated with European formulas. So accorse ovals draw more fans than road courses, because that's the way delusional hicks want it to be.
I think road racing will always be a niche sport here in the U.S. Even back in the heyday of CART the Indy 500, an oval race, was still the king. Of course, I was just little in the late 60s and early 70s, so I can't speak to how popular road racing was back then. I do remember my brother, who is 20 years older than me, going to F1 at Watkins Glen way back in the early 70s.
Napoleon
10-26-11, 08:05 AM
A.J. Foyt . . . commented that this wasn't racing and that all they were doing was "out-braking each other.... I can still do that."
I am really tempted to make a Road America joke here.
Insomniac
10-26-11, 08:27 AM
I think road racing will always be a niche sport here in the U.S. Even back in the heyday of CART the Indy 500, an oval race, was still the king. Of course, I was just little in the late 60s and early 70s, so I can't speak to how popular road racing was back then. I do remember my brother, who is 20 years older than me, going to F1 at Watkins Glen way back in the early 70s.
Weren't the CART ratings pre-split (and maybe for a bit post-split) high enough that road/street racing was more than a niche?
Napoleon
10-26-11, 08:36 AM
Weren't the CART ratings pre-split (and maybe for a bit post-split) high enough that road/street racing was more than a niche?
I would say yes they were but I guess it depends on how you define niche. They weren't in the territory of the 3 major sports (now I would argue 4 majors including NASCAR) but they were high enough that network TV would gladly pay to run it instead of it being on local cable channel 392.
The argument I frequently hear from the NASCAR folks is why on earth would I go to see a road course race in person when I can't see the entire track from my seat. :rolleyes:
stroker
10-26-11, 09:51 AM
I think road racing will always be a niche sport here in the U.S. Even back in the heyday of CART the Indy 500, an oval race, was still the king. Of course, I was just little in the late 60s and early 70s, so I can't speak to how popular road racing was back then. I do remember my brother, who is 20 years older than me, going to F1 at Watkins Glen way back in the early 70s.
A shame you weren't able to see a Can-Am race at Road America circa '69-'72. It sure as hell wasn't a niche sport then.
Spicoli
10-26-11, 10:03 AM
So.... Back on Topic. What were the "real" ratings for the Vegas race, and is he going to retire? Or has he been sucked in to the "you can save the sport" bullschit...?
TKGAngel
10-26-11, 10:08 AM
So.... Back on Topic. What were the "real" ratings for the Vegas race, and is he going to retire? Or has he been sucked in to the "you can save the sport" bullschit...?
Actual (ie: not overnights) for the race were a 1.6, second only to Indy for the series this year.
Rogue Leader
10-26-11, 10:13 AM
Mmmm. OK.
Reread what you wrote. You agreed with me. They are in the IRL and want to stay there because NOBODY WANTS THEM.:rofl:
I have to laugh at part of your original post because, while yeah the IRL is pretty low compared the the heyday of CART, more than half the field in the IRL is likely taking home some sort of paycheck for being there (I'd venture to say it may even be close to 3/4's). However if those same guys were to run in GA or ALMS they would likely be doing it for free, or paying to do it, or breaking their ass outside the car to drum up sponsorship to cover themselves. Aside from the top few teams (1/3rd of them MAX and thats pushing it), almost everyone in both those series is a pay driver of some sort.
If being a race car driver was my profession, I'd rather be in a series that still has (sort of) national TV coverage, and that I earn a paycheck, as opposed to having to work my ass off outside of the car just to make sure I have enough money to be in it. And if you're an open wheel guy in the US, the IRL is the only game in town.
Naaaahhh, he's all they got so that's why they cling to him. Cowboy is a BS artist since day uno and the perception that he wanted to create has been erased.
If I was them nimrods at 16th and Jonestown, I'd play up this catastrophe huge and use it to launch the 2012 "new and improved" car angle....so you can see what "we" have done to make the sport safer. The unwashed will love it and tune in just to make sure no one graters. Randy will be hailed as the new lord sagamore.
Spicoli
10-26-11, 10:28 AM
I have to laugh at part of your original post because, while yeah the IRL is pretty low compared the the heyday of CART, more than half the field in the IRL is likely taking home some sort of paycheck for being there (I'd venture to say it may even be close to 3/4's). However if those same guys were to run in GA or ALMS they would likely be doing it for free, or paying to do it, or breaking their ass outside the car to drum up sponsorship to cover themselves. Aside from the top few teams (1/3rd of them MAX and thats pushing it), almost everyone in both those series is a pay driver of some sort.
If being a race car driver was my profession, I'd rather be in a series that still has (sort of) national TV coverage, and that I earn a paycheck, as opposed to having to work my ass off outside of the car just to make sure I have enough money to be in it. And if you're an open wheel guy in the US, the IRL is the only game in town.
exactly, they are in the IRL because no other paying jobs exist for them. or they suck.
besides, the mortality rate must be considered when analyzing career moves. :tony:
racer2c
10-26-11, 10:48 AM
I have to laugh at part of your original post because, while yeah the IRL is pretty low compared the the heyday of CART, more than half the field in the IRL is likely taking home some sort of paycheck for being there (I'd venture to say it may even be close to 3/4's). However if those same guys were to run in GA or ALMS they would likely be doing it for free, or paying to do it, or breaking their ass outside the car to drum up sponsorship to cover themselves. Aside from the top few teams (1/3rd of them MAX and thats pushing it), almost everyone in both those series is a pay driver of some sort.
If being a race car driver was my profession, I'd rather be in a series that still has (sort of) national TV coverage, and that I earn a paycheck, as opposed to having to work my ass off outside of the car just to make sure I have enough money to be in it. And if you're an open wheel guy in the US, the IRL is the only game in town.
Paychecks from personal sponsors *cough*daddy*cough* are different than paychecks from team owners for driving their cars and my guess is there are only 3 owners in the IRL that pay.
High Sided
10-26-11, 11:53 AM
Nerves??!??
I didn't know they could do that.
i went through an intercostal nerve transfer in 93. it didn't work but if it had i would have regained my bicep muscle. 13hrs under the knife that day...
Intercostal nerve transfer to restore upper extremity functions after brachial plexus injury.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8572525
Rogue Leader
10-26-11, 12:21 PM
Paychecks from personal sponsors *cough*daddy*cough* are different than paychecks from team owners for driving their cars and my guess is there are only 3 owners in the IRL that pay.
Ganassi, Penske, Andretti, Panther, Foyt, KV (excluding Viso), and Newman Haas all likely pay their drivers at least partially which accounts for around 17 out of around 28 regulars. Some others are even arguable as well (Schmidt with Tagliani, Coyne with Bourdais, Pantano and Pagenaud and maybe even Scheckter at D&R, Wilson at D&R). Theres nowhere near that kind of coverage at GA, ALMS, etc.
racer2c
10-26-11, 12:22 PM
Ganassi, Penske, Andretti, Panther, Foyt, KV (excluding Viso), and Newman Haas all likely pay their drivers at least partially which accounts for around 17 out of around 28 regulars. Some others are even arguable as well (Schmidt with Tagliani, Coyne with Bourdais, Pantano and Pagenaud and maybe even Scheckter at D&R, Wilson at D&R). Theres nowhere near that kind of coverage at GA, ALMS, etc.
If you say so dood.
Rogue Leader
10-26-11, 12:37 PM
If you say so dood.
No, I am speculating thats why I said "likely". But take Foyt for example who runs Vitor Meira and the car only has ABC Supply on it who is a longtime Foyt sponsor. Unless he is a Brazillionaire funding his hobby (which in everything I can find on him he is not) then I would say hes likely paid something to be there.
Then it makes AJ a hypocrite if he's not. Short trekkers unite.
Racing Truth
10-26-11, 01:04 PM
Weren't the CART ratings pre-split (and maybe for a bit post-split) high enough that road/street racing was more than a niche?
The unknowable (d@mn, I'm channeling Don Rumsfeld) here is whether a r/s-only series would have garnered similar ratings to the CART r/s races.
Racing Truth
10-26-11, 01:22 PM
I have to laugh at part of your original post because, while yeah the IRL is pretty low compared the the heyday of CART, more than half the field in the IRL is likely taking home some sort of paycheck for being there (I'd venture to say it may even be close to 3/4's). However if those same guys were to run in GA or ALMS they would likely be doing it for free, or paying to do it, or breaking their ass outside the car to drum up sponsorship to cover themselves. Aside from the top few teams (1/3rd of them MAX and thats pushing it), almost everyone in both those series is a pay driver of some sort.
If being a race car driver was my profession, I'd rather be in a series that still has (sort of) national TV coverage, and that I earn a paycheck, as opposed to having to work my ass off outside of the car just to make sure I have enough money to be in it. And if you're an open wheel guy in the US, the IRL is the only game in town.
Right. And I'd also say, again, that, if they could, ALMS teams would bring on the top 1/3 or 1/2 of the IndyCar field ASAP. The field's nowhere near as deep as it was/needs to be, but the implication that many of them are only there b/c they couldn't cut it elsewhere is garbage.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.5 Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions Inc. All rights reserved.