View Full Version : So does Bernard get fired?
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Napoleon
10-16-11, 09:46 PM
????
Interestingly the first NY Times story on Weldon mentioned Bernard pushing the $5 million prize and latching onto Weldon with it. There clear implication is that it could have been a factor in his death. In general it painted him as driven to make the IRL a success. I just looked at their story again and it has been revised in the last 10 minutes to delete all but the fact he announced the death.
I hope so, but he shouldn't be the only one.
BarillaGirl
10-16-11, 09:51 PM
I just looked at their story again and it has been revised in the last 10 minutes to delete all but the fact he announced the death.
When you delete all that is damning, whatever remains, however innocuous, will be the manufactured truth. :shakehead
When you delete all that is damning, whatever remains, however innocuous, will be the manufactured truth. :shakehead
Hasn't that been going on since the inception of the irl ?
racer2c
10-16-11, 09:57 PM
They should have never been at that track, especially with 34 cars. But, they could have done that for 20 years without a death. Death has its own agenda. Today was the first time I ever agreed with any Eddie Cheever has uttered.
DagoFast
10-16-11, 10:02 PM
The fact the story was changed would indicate the IMS spinmeisters are burning the midnight oil. That would seem to indicate they are going with their usual approach of denying culpability, glossing over facts and continuing on with business as usual.
racer2c
10-16-11, 10:09 PM
The fact the story was changed would indicate the IMS spinmeisters are burning the midnight oil. That would seem to indicate they are going with their usual approach of denying culpability, glossing over facts and continuing on with business as usual.
It's all they know. The rodeo must go on. I only hope the teams just say f it and don't show up next year. This thing needS to end here, now.
I only hope the teams just say f it and don't show up next year. This thing needS to end here, now.
Agreed. I have no stomach for this farce anymore, even if the new car is decent. I think Halloween 1999 put open wheel oval racing on life support, and now it is dead. There is simply no reason for it to exist. No crowds. No TV ratings. No way to make it safe enough. Just end it and move on.
RIP Dan Wheldon.
It's all they know. The rodeo must go on. I only hope the teams just say f it and don't show up next year. This thing needS to end here, now.
But it won't. If the current car is really retired, it'll just start another round of pack racing with the new car.
Their efforts to take control of the sport as a cheap alternative to what existed at the time is exactly what killed Dan today. Nothing will change because they never admitted problems existed in the first place. They ARE ******.
High Sided
10-16-11, 10:32 PM
Tomas Scheckter tweet...
Time for drivers to get together and start working as union. We need a voice before the voices we love to hear are not around anymore.
5 hours ago
I really couldn't care less whether or not he gets fired.
But, I do hope that tonight, when he's sitting in his hotel room, he does some serious soul searching.
SurfaceUnits
10-16-11, 10:46 PM
Barnhart is the one who lined them up and threw the green flag
racermike
10-16-11, 11:54 PM
Tomas Scheckter tweet...
Time for drivers to get together and start working as union. We need a voice before the voices we love to hear are not around anymore.
5 hours ago
They used to listen to the turn workers and observers as well, not so much anymore. (I have not worked any Indycar races in 3+ years now, but hear this from others that still do).
New Hampshire was the worst, where every observer on Comm was overruled on the condition of the track before the restart.
I can still remember Wally Dallenbach, coming out to ONE turn, if there was some concern and talking with the corner workers there on what they thought should be done/changed in the name of safety (for the drivers, and the flaggers)
Napoleon
10-17-11, 04:51 AM
When you delete all that is damning, whatever remains, however innocuous, will be the manufactured truth. :shakehead
I would wait a couple of days before I make any judgment. IMO containing "big picture" type info like that in a story that they had to put together at a time that must have been up against their deadline is a recipe for getting it wrong. It could have been pulled with the intent to do a better researched follow up. They may have decided to limit the initial story to just the immediate facts.
BTW they seem to have at least put back in the fact there was a $5 million bonus on the line.
Lead story on the Today Show teaser in the local news. Even the IRL500 didn't get that kind of press.
There is plenty of blame to go around - though none of it will land where it should. I think it is a problem within the cultural of the IRL and more than one head needs to roll to change that. Spin will be on new cars, etc etc.
The sad fact is that everyone knew this was going to happen.
They are lucky that no one else was seriously injured or killed (Will Power is extremely lucky :saywhat:) and that one of these $#!@boxes didn't go into the crowd.
cameraman
10-17-11, 07:07 AM
It is sad to see the quotes coming from the drivers about how they should never have been at that track, how there were too many cars, how they never had a practice with more than half a dozen cars on track and how they were scared to go out there today.
They need to get their **** together and stand up for themselves, hard though that may be when many are ride buyers.
Rogue Leader
10-17-11, 07:23 AM
They are lucky that no one else was seriously injured or killed (Will Power is extremely lucky :saywhat:) and that one of these $#!@boxes didn't go into the crowd.
The in car camera that they showed from Will Powers car was terrifying, he spun and rolled in the air and mere inches from being another casualty. And it ended in a ball of flame!
Edit: here it is, WARNING its graphic
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gfb34ql7Pgc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gfb34ql7Pgc
Bernard needs to do the right thing and just resign in Dan's honor, and Barnhardt should go with him. The two of them should never have let this crap go on yesterday.
TKGAngel
10-17-11, 08:32 AM
BTW they seem to have at least put back in the fact there was a $5 million bonus on the line.
PT tweeted last night that if the IRL had any brains they would put the $5 million in a trust for Dan's wife & kids. That's really not a bad idea. It won't bring Dan back, but it will ensure those kids can have a good life.
stroker
10-17-11, 08:33 AM
I've been thinking about this overnight. I'm probably wrong, but it seems to me that this is the perfect excuse for the Sisters to go to Mari and demand she sell the whole thing to NASCAR. The market value of the .1RL has got to be less than zero at this point. If they sell to the Frances it can be conditional on running the 500 every year with common rules. The Hulmans get the headache of running the series out from under them and the assurance that the Frances will be around long enough to ensure the series continues to run.
I can't imagine RP or anyone else wanting to buy it at this point.
racer2c
10-17-11, 08:47 AM
I've been thinking about this overnight. I'm probably wrong, but it seems to me that this is the perfect excuse for the Sisters to go to Mari and demand she sell the whole thing to NASCAR. The market value of the .1RL has got to be less than zero at this point. If they sell to the Frances it can be conditional on running the 500 every year with common rules. The Hulmans get the headache of running the series out from under them and the assurance that the Frances will be around long enough to ensure the series continues to run.
I can't imagine RP or anyone else wanting to buy it at this point.
I'm just not convinced there is anything left to sell when it comes to the series. Zero fan interest, zero attendance outside Indy.
They could shut the doors on this thing right now. The teams could sell their old Dallaras to an oil Shiek for a Euro/Asian 'Super League' type series before they waste any money ordering the new car.
IMS continues with the Brickyard NASCAR race, maybe adds MotoGP to the road course etc.
I don't think NASCAR would want to bother with the IRL. There's no reason to.
Rogue Leader
10-17-11, 08:54 AM
PT tweeted last night that if the IRL had any brains they would put the $5 million in a trust for Dan's wife & kids. That's really not a bad idea. It won't bring Dan back, but it will ensure those kids can have a good life.
Heres the funny thing about that $5million, the IRL doesn't have it. That 5 million was an insurance policy the IRL took out to pay in the event of a win. The insurance company that backed it (I don't know who) is not going to pay this money out. While it would be nice for the money to be doled out like that, the only possible way it could would be if Dan Wheldon were declared winner of the race by Indy Car, but even then that would not stand as the race did not run beyond 50% distance, and it would be illegal as well since they would be contriving the results to get the insurance payout.
extramundane
10-17-11, 08:56 AM
The sad fact is that everyone knew this was going to happen.
They are lucky that no one else was seriously injured or killed (Will Power is extremely lucky :saywhat:) and that one of these $#!@boxes didn't go into the crowd.
It blows my mind to think that these same people thought it would be a splendid idea to put 5 outsiders in this race. But this is what the ghouls--the same people who called CART a bunch of sisses at Texas-- wanted- 230MPH pack racin'! Big 'splosions! MEDIA ATTENTION!
The whole thing is stomach-churning. RIP Dan, you didn't deserve this.
Michaelhatesfans
10-17-11, 09:34 AM
Randy promised he would quit if the TV numbers were low enough. How sick will it be if people tuning in just to see the crash pad the numbers enough for him to justify staying?
Don Quixote
10-17-11, 09:40 AM
It blows my mind to think that these same people thought it would be a splendid idea to put 5 outsiders in this race. But this is what the ghouls--the same people who called CART a bunch of sisses at Texas-- wanted- 230MPH pack racin'! Big 'splosions! MEDIA ATTENTION!
The whole thing is stomach-churning. RIP Dan, you didn't deserve this.I was just thinking the same thing. The Texas fiasco was one of the most embarrassing events in champcar history, but at the end of the day they did the right thing and didn't run the race. The whole thing was handled terribly, but they didn't run the race. If they had, this same type of thing might have happened. Now, umpteen years later, for whatever reason nobody had the guts to stand up and say no. Damn.
Yes, he gets fired! He orchestrates this $5 million stunt and the driver gets killed. It doesn't get any worse then that. :shakehead
If you look at the replays it's amazing that Will Power and Pippa Mann are not seriously injured.
Could you imagine if this stunt would have played out like he wanted; having 5 pure rookies like Travis Pastrana in this race? :rolleyes:
Ed_Severson
10-17-11, 10:12 AM
Heres the funny thing about that $5million, the IRL doesn't have it.
This is immaterial to the bigger issue here, but I don't think that's quite accurate. Dan was supposed to get $2.5 million, and the consensus seems to be that IndyCar didn't purchase a policy to cover it -- if Dan had won, IndyCar was on the hook for that $2.5 million. The other half was going to a fan, and presumably GoDaddy had purchased an insurance policy to cover that portion.
stroker
10-17-11, 10:39 AM
I'm just not convinced there is anything left to sell when it comes to the series. Zero fan interest, zero attendance outside Indy.
They could shut the doors on this thing right now. The teams could sell their old Dallaras to an oil Shiek for a Euro/Asian 'Super League' type series before they waste any money ordering the new car.
IMS continues with the Brickyard NASCAR race, maybe adds MotoGP to the road course etc.
I don't think NASCAR would want to bother with the IRL. There's no reason to.
The Family needs the 500. Without some sort of series the 500 starts to wither and die. There WILL be some sort of series, but I'm confident the Family has had enough. They can sell it to Tony (who has irrefutably demonstrated he doesn't know what he's doing and puts the whole plan at risk) or they can sell it to the Frances who, on balance, DO know what they're doing. The Frances can run the series as a support to the Daytona Prototypes which makes marketing sense. If you can pick it up virtually for free the Frances would be crazy not to buy. Between the Frances, Penske, Ganassi, et al, they can come up with something that might actually be economically viable. It'll never be CART but at the rate things are going the new car, the new engines, the new whatever isn't going to be enough to make this turd float in the bowl.
racer2c
10-17-11, 10:45 AM
The Family needs the 500. Without some sort of series the 500 starts to wither and die. There WILL be some sort of series, but I'm confident the Family has had enough. They can sell it to Tony (who has irrefutably demonstrated he doesn't know what he's doing and puts the whole plan at risk) or they can sell it to the Frances who, on balance, DO know what they're doing. The Frances can run the series as a support to the Daytona Prototypes which makes marketing sense. If you can pick it up virtually for free the Frances would be crazy not to buy. Between the Frances, Penske, Ganassi, et al, they can come up with something that might actually be economically viable. It'll never be CART but at the rate things are going the new car, the new engines, the new whatever isn't going to be enough to make this turd float in the bowl.
There are two different entities here, IMS and the IRL. One is worth something, one isn't.
stroker
10-17-11, 12:19 PM
There are two different entities here, IMS and the IRL. One is worth something, one isn't.
The speedway is only worth something if there's a race. Without a series I don't see how the race is economically viable. How are you going to grid 33 cars if it makes no financial sense to buy one?
racer2c
10-17-11, 12:34 PM
The speedway is only worth something if there's a race. Without a series I don't see how the race is economically viable. How are you going to grid 33 cars if it makes no financial sense to buy one?
The point is...and I'll try to make myself very clear this time for you, I can see NASCAR buying IMS not the IRL. NASCAR has cars.
Who on earth would buy the IRL? Its worthless, completely and utterly worthless.
Don Quixote
10-17-11, 12:37 PM
Who on earth would buy the IRL? Its worthless, completely and utterly worthless.There isn't a word in the english language that can describe how worthless it is.
Napoleon
10-17-11, 01:10 PM
There isn't a word in the english language that can describe how worthless it is.
You know what this means, we need to invent one.
It is sad to see the quotes coming from the drivers about how they should never have been at that track, how there were too many cars, how they never had a practice with more than half a dozen cars on track and how they were scared to go out there today.
They need to get their **** together and stand up for themselves, hard though that may be when many are ride buyers.
Actually, them being ride buyers should make it a whole lot easier. Take their money elsewhere.
Andrew Longman
10-17-11, 01:55 PM
They should have never been at that track, especially with 34 cars. But, they could have done that for 20 years without a death. Death has its own agenda. Today was the first time I ever agreed with any Eddie Cheever has uttered.
I met with a client this morning and we shared pleasantries about the weekend. He paid $1500 in emergency care for a 15 year old dog. I said I had the unhappiness to witness a driver dying. He is absolutely the farthest thing from a race fan but he immediately said, "Oh I heard about that. A NASCAR race and there were too many cars going too fast for the track"
So that's the story he got.:shakehead
I don't hope NASCAR buys it. They DO make money, but they are not exactly on the ball doing the intelligent thing about safety. And they (ISC) don't have many ovals an open wheel car should race on and too many they should not.
I also don't see them doing it. They are struggling now. Cash isn't great I'm sure. It is likely to be seen as a time for them to consolidate their interests not invest in new -- with the problems of coming up with a new spec and everything.
I'd rather someone buy IMS and promote the I500 as a showcase for new automotive technology and speed. Offer a massive prize backed buy significant event sponsorship sufficient to encourage manufacturers and technology companies to participate. -- so much they feel they couldn't stnd on the sidelines.
Put the 500 back together and there is a chance a compelling series can come out of it.
I've been thinking about this overnight. I'm probably wrong, but it seems to me that this is the perfect excuse for the Sisters to go to Mari and demand she sell the whole thing to NASCAR. The market value of the .1RL has got to be less than zero at this point. If they sell to the Frances it can be conditional on running the 500 every year with common rules. The Hulmans get the headache of running the series out from under them and the assurance that the Frances will be around long enough to ensure the series continues to run.
I can't imagine RP or anyone else wanting to buy it at this point.
Nobody in their right mind would buy the IRL given it's history. Now, I'm sure NASCAR wouldn't mind owning IMS. Then they can run there twice a year.
stroker
10-17-11, 02:02 PM
The point is...and I'll try to make myself very clear this time for you, I can see NASCAR buying IMS not the IRL. NASCAR has cars.
Who on earth would buy the IRL? Its worthless, completely and utterly worthless.
Okay, and I'll try make myself clear, too. Was CART worthless in 1979, if you didn't know what it could turn into? The difference being that now you'd have IMS by the short ones in a contract to run your series in the 500, not an adversarial relationship? If you buy the .1RL right now for peanuts, you've got the chance to remake a series as popular as CART (and the revenue it entailed, PLUS being in a position to take advantage of F1's errors) but this time IMS could potentially be working for you, not against you. If you were the Frances, worth BILLIONS of dollars, how could the speculative risk of a few million NOT be worth taking that chance?
racer2c
10-17-11, 02:05 PM
Okay, and I'll try make myself clear, too. Was CART worthless in 1979, if you didn't know what it could turn into? The difference being that now you'd have IMS by the short ones in a contract to run your series in the 500, not an adversarial relationship? If you buy the .1RL right now for peanuts, you've got the chance to remake a series as popular as CART (and the revenue it entailed, PLUS being in a position to take advantage of F1's errors) but this time IMS could potentially be working for you, not against you. If you were the Frances, worth BILLIONS of dollars, how could the speculative risk of a few million NOT be worth taking that chance?
I'll be on the edge of my seat waiting for NASCARs press release.:\
Okay, and I'll try make myself clear, too. Was CART worthless in 1979, if you didn't know what it could turn into? The difference being that now you'd have IMS by the short ones in a contract to run your series in the 500, not an adversarial relationship? If you buy the .1RL right now for peanuts, you've got the chance to remake a series as popular as CART (and the revenue it entailed, PLUS being in a position to take advantage of F1's errors) but this time IMS could potentially be working for you, not against you. If you were the Frances, worth BILLIONS of dollars, how could the speculative risk of a few million NOT be worth taking that chance?What happened to CART? What would stop it from happening again? Why would anyone want to put themselves in that position?
DagoFast
10-17-11, 02:18 PM
There isn't a word in the english language that can describe how worthless it is.
You know what this means, we need to invent one.
Anton'd. :tony:
You know, if baseball can be targeted by the US government for steroid use I'd love to see Barnhardt and Bernard put on the hot seat for this debacle. Barnhardt has shown that he doesn't care about safety and I really feel it's time he's prosecuted and his butt gets thrown in jail for this negligence.
racer2c
10-17-11, 02:36 PM
Anton'd. :tony:
:thumbup:
Don Quixote
10-17-11, 02:42 PM
:thumbup:
:thumbup::thumbup:
Racing Truth
10-17-11, 03:11 PM
Barnhart? Yes, he SHOULD go. It's the tech specs on the 1.5s that created IndyCar pack racing from '00 on. He was responsible for them. He could have either demanded the series stop running high-banked 1.5s or added something to create drag/slash downforce on the cars. He did neither.
Randy? Look, he's no gearhead. TGBB should have told him of the Vegas risks. Had he understood the gravity of it, I think yesterday goes differently.
Andrew Longman
10-17-11, 03:13 PM
What happened to CART? What would stop it from happening again? Why would anyone want to put themselves in that position?The split.
Without the 500, and as long as the split persisted, the CART property decreased in equity. Manufacturers, sponsors, promoters, fans, drivers and owners saw the pie shrinking and future looking riskier year after year. Occasionally someone would throw an investment at it thinking it was closer than it actually was to a tipping point of forcing TG to back down, but in the end the rats tried to grab as much cheese as they could before the ship sunk.
Without TG and with actual reality based leadership, that would not be the case.
stroker
10-17-11, 03:19 PM
The split.
Without the 500, and as long as the split persisted, the CART property decreased in equity. Manufacturers, sponsors, promoters, fans, drivers and owners saw the pie shrinking and future looking riskier year after year. Occasionally someone would throw an investment at it thinking it was closer than it actually was to a tipping point of forcing TG to back down, but in the end the rats tried to grab as much cheese as they could before the ship sunk.
Without TG and with actual reality based leadership, that would not be the case.
Thank you.
racer2c
10-17-11, 03:38 PM
The split.
Without the 500, and as long as the split persisted, the CART property decreased in equity.
Wow! That's right out of the Track Forum Mission Statement. Hmmm.
That opens up a whole can of worms that I'm not in the mood to dig into and this isn't the thread to do it in anyway.
Andrew Longman
10-17-11, 03:58 PM
Wow! That's right out of the Track Forum Mission Statement. Hmmm.
That opens up a whole can of worms that I'm not in the mood to dig into and this isn't the thread to do it in anyway.Fair enough.
My point is only that the thing that separates open wheel racing from NASCAR, run-what-you-brung racing is SUPPOSED to be racing and engineering at something that looks like the extremes. THAT's what IMS was built for and THAT's what its history and champ car history is about (even in CARTs version of it.) That includes doing the engineering to be SAFE at those extremes.
Gomerific dirt track wannabe champions never got that, or at least never got that once the extremes moved beyond engineering that included chalk lines on the garage floor.
TG never left the frat house long enough to get that and kept listening to the same gomers who thought it was better to complain to him that the world was leaving them behind rather than do what had to be done to keep up.
If you look at the technology floating around today in the semi castrated world of sports car racing, imagine what they would go if Indy was still a worthy showcase.
I've been thinking about this overnight. I'm probably wrong, but it seems to me that this is the perfect excuse for the Sisters to go to Mari and demand she sell the whole thing to NASCAR. The market value of the .1RL has got to be less than zero at this point. If they sell to the Frances it can be conditional on running the 500 every year with common rules. The Hulmans get the headache of running the series out from under them and the assurance that the Frances will be around long enough to ensure the series continues to run.
I can't imagine RP or anyone else wanting to buy it at this point.
I'm just not convinced there is anything left to sell when it comes to the series. Zero fan interest, zero attendance outside Indy.
They could shut the doors on this thing right now. The teams could sell their old Dallaras to an oil Shiek for a Euro/Asian 'Super League' type series before they waste any money ordering the new car.
IMS continues with the Brickyard NASCAR race, maybe adds MotoGP to the road course etc.
I don't think NASCAR would want to bother with the IRL. There's no reason to.
Maybe the IRL should just go back to short oval dirt track stuff, and just have one race each year for the Big Cars. Seems like that would satisfy just about everyone.
I haven't read all the comments yet, but why in the living Hell would the IRL put 34 darts on a 1.5 mile, high-banked track to begin with? That's beyond ludicrous, imo. Think Texas, 2001.
RIP, Dan.
stroker
10-17-11, 04:55 PM
Maybe the IRL should just go back to short oval dirt track stuff, and just have one race each year for the Big Cars. Seems like that would satisfy just about everyone.
Sell the .1RL to USAC...?
racer2c
10-17-11, 05:26 PM
Sell the .1RL to USAC...?
Strangely enough, I could see that happening.
Nobody in their right mind would buy the IRL given it's history. Now, I'm sure NASCAR wouldn't mind owning IMS. Then they can run there twice a year.
and add banking.
“As long as I’m CEO, danger will be an important element of this sport. When you sign up to be a racecar driver, you accept a responsibility for that danger. And if you don’t want to be a racecar driver because of danger, go find another profession.”
— IndyCar CEO Randy Bernard, June 2011
http://sports.nationalpost.com/2011/10/17/dan-wheldons-death-casts-a-shadow-on-indycar/
What makes any of you think that anyone at 16th and Jonestown will respond to this in a rational manner? Trying to predict their actions is like trying to predict the movements of a blind monkey in a maze. Except of course that whatever they do will be greedy and low-class, because that is who they are.
SurfaceUnits
10-18-11, 04:26 AM
and add banking.
and a tri-oval on the backstretch
Napoleon
10-18-11, 07:33 AM
When you delete all that is damning, whatever remains, however innocuous, will be the manufactured truth. :shakehead
The NY Times just waited a day to do the story.
Worries circled Las Vegas track before a pileup (http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/18/sports/autoracing/worries-circled-las-vegas-track-before-a-pileup.html)
Napoleon
10-18-11, 08:03 AM
This story isn't exactly a PR coup either. (http://www.usatoday.com/NEWS/usaedition/2011-10-18-1A-cover-Dan-Wheldon_CV_U.htm)
http://webmedia.newseum.org/newseum-multimedia/dfp/jpg18/lg/USAT.jpg
You know Indy would be a nice stock car track if they allowed for some rubber build up.
I think THAT track is getting too much focus. All I hear is the misguided quotes about Indycar on a dangerous track - missing that it isn't Vegas that is the problem, it is the cookie-cutter tracks designed for NASCAR that are the problem.
Also (and mentioned by Mario Andretti this AM on Today): these cars fly. And are underpowered. And have a downforce problem.
But the media seems to have latched onto the that track.
That track was one of the main factors of this crash; having 34 cars was an issue as well. All the drivers were concerned by it. Wasn't it a crash fest when they raced there in 96 or whenever with the IRL? I seem to remember O'connell and Guerrero being upside down and Hearn being one of only 5 cars finishing to win it. After that they never came back, right?
When CART raced at Fontana at 240 mph in 98 or 99, it wasn't much safer then Sunday's race, that's for sure! It's just that the cars weren't so evenly matched and most of the drivers were better quality.
racer2c
10-18-11, 09:26 AM
That track was one of the main factors of this crash; having 34 cars was an issue as well. All the drivers were concerned by it. Wasn't it a crash fest when they raced there in 96 or whenever with the IRL? I seem to remember O'connell and Guerrero being upside down and Hearn being one of only 5 cars finishing to win it. After that they never came back, right?
When CART raced at Fontana at 240 mph in 98 or 99, it wasn't much safer then Sunday's race, that's for sure! It's just that the cars weren't so evenly matched and most of the drivers were better quality.
I mentioned in another thread also that 'they' purposely designed the IndyCar for gomerific "side by side" pack racing. The quotes from the drivers seem to point more to the car than the track.
Don Quixote
10-18-11, 09:45 AM
What do I know, but I would rank the contributing factors as:
1. Car
2. Track (banked 1.5 mile cookie cutter)
3. Drivers (too many wankers)
They may fix #1 (I doubt it, because they want pack racing), but they won't fix #2 and #3.
You know, if there's one thing that can be predicted, it's that IMS will recoil and do nothing. I predict IMS does nothing. Why should they?
Brack was maimed at Texas and the IRL was on TV touting and spouting off about how safe their car is. Then a week later, Renna is killed at Indy. Solution? 50G impact sidepod lights and the body wicker. Before that it was Mario in flight at Indy, and broken backs galore. Hey, let's put an energy absorbing attenuator back there. And, then we'll put softer walls....Randy is on record that the TRACKS need to make changes so Indycars can race more competitively on them. What clueless Indy arrogance.
My point is this is a business that won't react to criticism and takes driver safety lightly while giving the appearance that it does take driver safety seriously. Pack racing IS their money ticket.
So, I expect them to dismiss all of this as a racing accident, just like all the others....with no connection to the true cause. "The new chassis has addressed all of these concerns", and sweep everything else before it under the rug....just like everything else the speedway has always done. And the drivers will get in their cars because "it's what Dan would have wanted", and race until another tragedy happens. And the media will forget all of this and they will reintroduce the media gag all so Indy can be restored from the damaging split. PUKE...
Just like IMS has always wanted them to do....:flame:
racer2c
10-18-11, 11:35 AM
You know, if there's one thing that can be predicted, it's that IMS will recoil and do nothing. I predict IMS does nothing. Why should they?
:
Without a doubt. They will stay tight lipped until the media attention dies down, reschedule their championship banquet in which half of it will be a remembrance of Dan. Then they will trot out the new, 'safer' car at St Pete with a 2 minute 'remembrance' of Dan and a re-run of the same footage at the 500 and that will be it. Heck, even Rahal made a statement yesterday that basically said 'that's racing folks, lets move on' (not in those exact words but thats how I took it).
But thats how I expect it will unfold. Vegas will stay on the sched until a short press release half way through the season says they are dropping it.
IRL Status Quo.
Andrew Longman
10-18-11, 12:01 PM
Interesting and actually well researched article in the MSM about the "race"
But the "fan" and his wife in the picture has a ALMS jacket on. :shakehead
http://www.centurylink.net/news/read.php?id=18676473&ps=1013&cat=&cps=0&lang=en
What makes any of you think that anyone at 16th and Jonestown will respond to this in a rational manner? Trying to predict their actions is like trying to predict the movements of a blind monkey in a maze. Except of course that whatever they do will be greedy and low-class, because that is who they are.
Andrew Longman
10-18-11, 12:10 PM
Without a doubt. They will stay tight lipped until the media attention dies down, reschedule their championship banquet in which half of it will be a remembrance of Dan. Then they will trot out the new, 'safer' car at St Pete with a 2 minute 'remembrance' of Dan and a re-run of the same footage at the 500 and that will be it. Heck, even Rahal made a statement yesterday that basically said 'that's racing folks, lets move on' (not in those exact words but thats how I took it).
But thats how I expect it will unfold. Vegas will stay on the sched until a short press release half way through the season says they are dropping it.
IRL Status Quo.
I agree.
And I am never an apologist for the IRL... but that is not too far from what they need to do. Racing is dangerous. People can die. It happens. Must move on.
But racing again with that car on that type of track in packs -- that would be inexcusable. And I actually seriously doubt Burton Smith or the other track owners would agree to try to sell tickets for that. The press is being pretty hard today on the very formula.
Dan at Indy in 2003
http://mfpilot.com/ebaypics/race/weldonflip0503wm.jpg
Simona at Indy 2011
http://85.94.205.191/motor-sport.tv/BlogPost/596x373_295897_immersive-1-.jpg
Mike Conway at Indy 2010
http://indianapolis-indiana.funcityfinder.com/files/2010/06/Mike-Conway-Crash-Indy-500_4.jpg
Dario at Michigan
http://i53.tinypic.com/23ruvxw.jpg
Dario at Kentucky 2007
http://www.carpictures.com/media/images/full/07HCD170114673A.jpeg
Insomniac
10-18-11, 12:53 PM
When CART raced at Fontana at 240 mph in 98 or 99, it wasn't much safer then Sunday's race, that's for sure! It's just that the cars weren't so evenly matched and most of the drivers were better quality.
Didn't the hanford device create more separation between the cars?
Didn't the hanford device create more separation between the cars?
Turbulence did, but it caused such a draft that cars could get by...not stay so side-by-side.
Kenny Brack at Texas 2003
http://www.adamcarolla.com/CarCastBlog/wp-content/gallery/ep216/kenny_brack_crash_1.jpg
Casey Mears at Atlanta 2001
http://www.autoracing1.com/Images/2001Misc/AtlantaCrash1.jpg
Racing Truth
10-18-11, 01:20 PM
Dario at Michigan
http://i53.tinypic.com/23ruvxw.jpg
This one is damning. A better-designed car never lifts from that impact. Ditto Simona and Dan in '03.
racer2c
10-18-11, 01:56 PM
Its the flat bottom right? The new car doesn't have the flat bottom?
http://static.deseretnews.com/images/article/sidebar/595134069/Indy-Racing-League-driver-Sam-Hornish-Jr-slides.jpg
Dana lost control heading into turn two on the 2 1/2-mile oval and backed hard into the outside wall. Hornish ran over debris from Dana's wreck, flipped high into the air, turned over and skidded along the track on the open cockpit of his Team Penske entry.
http://www.deseretnews.com/article/600133821/Hornish-Dana-crash-in-Indy-500-warm-ups.html
Its the flat bottom right? The new car doesn't have the flat bottom?
On the Today Show, Mario did say that the flat bottom was a problem.
And don't forget the senior Andretti's flight:
http://i55.tinypic.com/23qxyxx.jpg
Nine years has passed....and they knew the flat bottom was the problem in 2003.
Vitor Meira at Milwaukee 2008
http://www.pantherracing.com/images/content/story/08%20Milwaukee%20-%20RACE%20COVER.jpg
Marco Andretti after flight down backstraight Indy 2007
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/196/518102177_58a1b447bf_z.jpg
One thing for sure, the series needs to look at the rules, the cars, the track and learn from this. I love Mario Andretti, but it seems he has drank the cool aid, because saying that this was a 'one off freakish accident' isn't reality!
Ryan Briscoe at Chicagoland 2005
http://www.poyi.org/63/photos/03/ae03.jpg
Rogue Leader
10-18-11, 04:02 PM
The NY Times just waited a day to do the story.
Worries circled Las Vegas track before a pileup (http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/18/sports/autoracing/worries-circled-las-vegas-track-before-a-pileup.html)
That article makes it sound like Wheldon was a rusty driver who hadn't touched a race car in years before lucking into an Indy win, and then sitting on his hands for 5 months till he got the phone call for a promotional stunt. :rolleyes:
Napoleon
10-18-11, 04:11 PM
RL,
Yeah it was a miss not to mention he had been testing. I hardly think the article heavily leans on that fact but they just mention it as one factor of many. That said when you look at the tape it seems to me that unlike a bunch of other drivers he did not lift but drove right into it. Was it because he was rusty? Saw a chance to pick up 20 spots within a few seconds? Distracted?
Who knows.
Ed_Severson
10-18-11, 04:13 PM
That article makes it sound like Wheldon was a rusty driver who hadn't touched a race car in years before lucking into an Indy win, and then sitting on his hands for 5 months till he got the phone call for a promotional stunt. :rolleyes:
I'd say the most offensive thing about that article is the implication that Wheldon took on some wildly obscene risk because he was desperate for a big paycheck.
But yes, overall, that is some pretty goddamned poor journalism.
racer2c
10-18-11, 04:20 PM
I've also noticed in the articles I've been reading that they are quoting only NASCAR drivers. Probably due to their name recognition and partly due to the IndyCar drivers not wanting to give interviews this soon. Most recommend IndyCars not race on ovals at all. Agenda?
Napoleon
10-18-11, 04:22 PM
I've also noticed in the articles I've been reading that they are quoting only NASCAR drivers.
I swear today I have read at least one, perhaps 2, that quote people in the IRL (even if not by name). Perhaps the Miller piece at Speed?
Most recommend IndyCars not race on ovals at all. Agenda?
I agree with them IF the series doesn't take measurable action to correct it. Nine years of data has netted us Las Vegas. That should be the agenda...fixing the true problem.
Ed_Severson
10-18-11, 04:27 PM
I've also noticed in the articles I've been reading that they are quoting only NASCAR drivers. Probably due to their name recognition and partly due to the IndyCar drivers not wanting to give interviews this soon.
There have been plenty of drivers giving interviews on television and writing guest columns for outlets. All these quotes coming from NASCAR drivers are the direct result of one thing -- a bunch of journalists who never have written and never will again write about auto racing being asked to write a piece on this incident, and those people believe that NASCAR is the only authority on car racing.
While not at all a NASCAR fan, I have a lot of respect for Jimmie Johnson. He's proven that he's a great driver, and everytime I've ever heard him speak, he's come across as intelligent, thoughtful, and well-spoken. But on this topic, he needs to STFU.
Great evidence Chief. There have been so many into the grater or blown over they all run together.
racer2c
10-18-11, 04:35 PM
I agree with them IF the series doesn't take measurable action to correct it. Nine years of data has netted us Las Vegas. That should be the agenda...fixing the true problem.
That verges on criminal. I believe the new car does have 'ground effects'.
Dallara is going to name the new chassis after Dan.
link (http://www.motorauthority.com/news/1067474_dallara-to-name-2012-indycar-chassis-for-dan-wheldon)
Lux Interior
10-18-11, 04:41 PM
I've also noticed in the articles I've been reading that they are quoting only NASCAR drivers. Probably due to their name recognition and partly due to the IndyCar drivers not wanting to give interviews this soon. Most recommend IndyCars not race on ovals at all. Agenda?
Of course NASCAR drivers will say that. It's like Mercedes saying "we think BMW should stop making cars and just make motorcycles and boat motors"
I agree with them IF the series doesn't take measurable action to correct it. Nine years of data has netted us Las Vegas. That should be the agenda...fixing the true problem.
This is not the first time the IRL has looked the other way. The original crapwagon was overly tail heavy due to the Emco tranny hanging out behind it so far. The monied teams machined out much of the excess casing to help reduce the mass. Recall how many tail first collisions occurred then? And how many broken backs were the result?
This was told to me directly by a team member.
B3RACER1a
10-18-11, 07:24 PM
Here's my thoughts:
Open wheel cars can launch each other with wheel-to-wheel contact. It's always been that way. F1 cars do it, Champ cars did it, IRL cars do it. It's open wheel, and it's sometimes going to happen with wheel contact.
There were plenty of instances where Champ Cars made it into the air as well, but they were usually airborn a very short time. From what I can recall without digging through youtube videos or pictures (maybe someone can help with that), Champ Cars would touch and change direction. That change in direction could be skyward as the contact forces would point them. But, this is where there skyward flight would spoil, energy would transfer into the air, and the car would settle almost immediatly after contact.
Now, let's take an IRL car. For example, they touch, change direction towards the sky just like a Champ Car would. But, the IRL car continues to point skyward and fly. The interaction between the air and the IRL car is much different at a "nose up" pitch than the old Champ Cars were. The IRL car makes a 2nd notion to go skywards, and it's purely by itself with no other interaction with other cars or objects.
Now, why are the cars so different?
1) Aero
2) Forward/aft weight distribution
Let's start with #1. Large wings that are probably very sensitive to pitch in reference to air velocity. Pitch them up, they create lift. Pitch them down, they create downforce. The larger the surface area, the more this is pronounced. Also, the shape of the bottom of the car plays a big roll too. It somehow is responsible as well. It just collects air under it and holds it there when pitched upwards.
Now, for #2..and some of you had touched on that already. The old IRL cars seemed to be weight biased heavily towards the rear, which is why they had a this thing about them about backing straight into walls. The newer IRL cars don't appear to be quite as bad as the originals were, but I think they are still biased pretty heavily towards the back.
Continued for #2: Now, watch an IRL fly slowly and we'll go throught the steps. Nose pitches up from wheel-to-wheel contact, initial momentum takes the car upwards. Now, air interacts with the car and takes it upwards. Aero reason's were explained in #1, but there is another player and thats, weight distribution. Each car has a center of mass and a center of pressure. If the center of mass is behind the center of pressure in a "nose up" situation, the car goes up. If the opposite is true, the car should return to earth pretty quickly. Watching an IRL take off though, it's pretty obvious that the center of mass of the car is pretty far back, because that is the axis at where the car will want to rotate upwards.
So, to fix the issue...and hopefully they have with the new car:
1) Smaller wings, and more tunnel under the car. Create downforce with the bottom of the chassis and less with the wings. Racing would probably be a lot better that way anyways. Remember how small Champcar oval wings were?
2) Get the car balanced out. Don't hang a big heavy tranny off the back of the car. Wind tunnel test and make sure that in a pitch up situation, that the center of pressure doesn't move in front of the center of mass.
Do those things, and I think a lot of the flying car problems go away.
Agenda?
He's only stating what the ticket buying, tv watching public decided long ago.
The hapless series had already de-ovalized the 2012 schedule. Iowa and Indy are the only fee paying dates. LVMS, Fontana and Texas are rentals - if they come off at all now.
racer2c
10-18-11, 09:32 PM
He's only stating what the ticket buying, tv watching public decided long ago.
The hapless series had already de-ovalized the 2012 schedule. Iowa and Indy are the only fee paying dates. LVMS, Fontana and Texas are rentals - if they come off at all now.
True. It would be a completely different insinuation if indycar was as popular as NASCAR.
Here's my thoughts:
Open wheel cars can launch each other with wheel-to-wheel contact. It's always been that way. F1 cars do it, Champ cars did it, IRL cars do it. It's open wheel, and it's sometimes going to happen with wheel contact.
Your assessment is exactly as a logical approach should be. But a poor, Hulman family funded league could not shutter the series for any length of time to redesign or retool any generation of crapwagon. That's why aero bits, and other band aids got us to where we are today.
I absolutely agree with your aero and balance targets....all of this is to accommidate a cheap assed home grown boat anchor engine. PERIOD. And NINE years later we still have the problem. Fixing the old car now won't bring Dan or Tony back, nor allow Kenny Brack or any other victim of this negligence to live normal lives. Hey, we figured it out in ONE DAY.
Again if these are the problems, and we knew about them in 1997-2003, why did they wait until 2011 and Wheldon's death to even confront this farce?
Again if these are the problems, and we knew about them in 1997-2003, why did they wait until 2011 and Wheldon's death to even confront this farce?
Plausible deniability.
They covered up Renna's death since there were no witnesses.
Mario walked away and lived to not tell the tale.
They blamed Paul Dana since he was a rookie.
But when the current Indy 500 champ dies on network TV in the season finale amidst carnage sure to make every national news outlet, there's no hiding it. No denying it.
The IRL killed Dan Wheldon. I hope they fry for it.
miatanut
10-19-11, 03:32 AM
Plausible deniability.
They covered up Renna's death since there were no witnesses.
Mario walked away and lived to not tell the tale.
They blamed Paul Dana since he was a rookie.
But when the current Indy 500 champ dies on network TV in the season finale amidst carnage sure to make every national news outlet, there's no hiding it. No denying it.
The IRL killed Dan Wheldon. I hope they fry for it.
This is IMS we're talking about. They're teflon. Nothing ever sticks to them. Nothing will change.
This is not the first time the IRL has looked the other way. The original crapwagon was overly tail heavy due to the Emco tranny hanging out behind it so far. The monied teams machined out much of the excess casing to help reduce the mass. Recall how many tail first collisions occurred then? And how many broken backs were the result?
This was told to me directly by a team member.
Don't forget that before the cars started backing into the walls and snapping necks, there was a quote from TG saying that he didn't think teams should have to buy a new gearbox every time a car backed into the wall on ovals.
it's been my bone of contention with journalist and fans alike for oh so many years now.
People like to talk about the IRL like it is relevant, an in my mind it has nothing to do with automobile racing, and everything to do with entertainment.
The cars, the people driving them (most of them), how they are made, who works on them and how they get the financing to compete is nothing short of a slap in the face to all the racing that has gone on in North America.
The bloodline to development stopped with the split. The "Champcar" became some overblown, over priced and an dangerous piece of **** that stirred no passion, no creativity shut out dreamers.
I mean, they gave the Louis Schwitzer award for a mirror mount! have you seen that ugly piece of ****? Another time it was given for a wrench to adjust the wing post? Give me a farking break.
They have been setting these cars back on thier wheels, digging them out of catch fences and thanking their lucky stars for waaaaaaaay to long
and there is no way to "defend" it, Luck ran out
The IRL, brought to you to preserve ovals, and now responsible for killing them all together.
Ziggy
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