Warning: your stuff can get you killed

[Anteater]

Tragic story in the news today—the local city historian died in a house fire, along with her husband.


Cramped and cluttered conditions inside the one-story home hampered firefighting efforts, authorities said, keeping firefighters from effectively battling the flames from the inside and rescuing an elderly couple who were inside the home as the fire grew, said Capt. Marc Stone of the Orange County Fire Authority.

"They had some difficulty trying to get inside (the home)," Stone said. "Once they found (the couple) they had a hard time getting them out of the house."

Neighbors said they had voiced concern to city officials in the past regarding hoarding conditions inside the one-story home along the 33000 block of Bremerton St. in the past, describing boxes and filing cabinets that reached to the ceiling of the home.

http://www.ocregister.com/news/home-324642-inside-fire.html

The photos show an incredible mess. People are criticizing the city for not resolving the hoarding issue and preventing this tragic event, but having had personal experience with the city code enforcement department, I can attest to that department’s diligence.

Very sad and horrible situation—Doris Walker was a well-liked and respected member of the community. RIP :(
http://www.ocregister.com/news/fire-324819-sunday-walker.html

[Elmo T]

Ugh - hate to read these things.

Hoarding is a huge problem for the code departments. Many cities have regulations about what you can do to the outside of your home (property maintenance codes), but it is nearly impossible to regulate HOW you live inside your home.

There was a double fatal fire up the road from here a few years back - hoarders with no way out. The hoarding doesn't generally create the fire itself - it hides true fire causes and prevents escape when it does happen.

I have no less than 5 hoarders on my radar screen now. One with complaints from the owner's adult children. These are probably best handled as the mental health issues that they are - something beyond your typical city inspectors to handle. I only wish our people had the authority that residents think they wield.

All the "she was such a nice lady" comments are sadly too little and too late. :(

[miatanut]

I'm certainly not a libertarian, but I think people should have their own rights and responsibilities inside their own homes.

If it's a dump outside, that impacts the neighborhood and it's appropriate for the local jurisdiction to be able to do something. Inside, it's a potential hazard for firefighters but that's a rare and flukey event. Other than that, it doesn't endanger anyone else.

[Rogue Leader]

I've been to a fire in a house like that many years ago. The fire started in the basement and luckily no one was there. While we were attacking the fire down there the 1st floor gave way and collapsed about 5 feet ahead of me, with all their junk coming down through it. 5 feet closer of a collapse, or had I pushed 5 more feet forward it would have been on my head.

I feel bad they had to die, but after having almost ate it because of someone like them, I can't help but have little sympathy.

[Anteater]

Yikes, Rogue Leader--maybe it's not so 'rare and flukey' an event after all! :eek:

I'm sure that the couple's family members and friends are probably feeling pretty awful right now, thinking that they should have done something. Hard to get inside the mind of a hoarder. There is plenty of assistance for such people in our community, but first the hoarder has to acknowledge that there's a problem. I'm guessing that a historian would have tons of paperwork related to her research, and as someone who loved the past, she might have had trouble letting go of it after she didn't need it any more.

This hit me close to home. I have a garage that I haven't been able to park in for 5 years, filled with projects that my husband doesn't have time to deal with right now. Inside the house we have boxes of stuff that he needs to sort through and either organize or throw out (I've done this to the best of my ability already). Overall the house is neat, but the accumulation of cr@p is a worrisome trend. At the very least, I'd like to spare my nephew the trouble of going through it all in case something happens to us.

[Gnam]

One of the trick-or-treaters last night was this teeny tiny blond haired princess who couldn't have been more than 4 years old. After I loaded her down with candy, she was very insistent on asking where my car was and why it wasn't on the driveway.

Her mom laughed and tried explaining that some people actually park their car in the garage. I don't think the kid was buying it though. :D

[miatanut]

Yikes, Rogue Leader--maybe it's not so 'rare and flukey' an event after all! :eek:

What percentage of a typical building's life does it experience fire?

What percentage of fires are in the homes of hoarders?

It's getting into millionths of a percent. Maybe less.

Pretty rare.

Then it comes down to a firefighter's approach. They aren't going to go in an area with a compromised structure unless they determine it's unavoidable. The bigger problem is moving through those little deer trails through the house with all that gear trying to find the people. In this case, that delay may have cost them their lives.

Should every aspect of our lives be regulated, even if it's to protect ourselves?

I use a bike helmet when I'm riding in traffic. When it's just me and a logging road (with no active logging on it), I don't. I get a moment of freedom and foolishness when I'm barreling down the hill. If I'm doing single track with trees all around, I wear the helmet.

That will be a sad day.

Someday there will probably be a regulation that if I'm mountain biking on national forest service land, I have to wear one.

[Elmo T]

What percentage of a typical building's life does it experience fire?

What percentage of fires are in the homes of hoarders?

It's getting into millionths of a percent. Maybe less.


The issue isn't about the statistical probability of a fire occurring. It is whether these folks pose a threat to themselves or others.

I get the Libertarian thing to a point - and folks will reap what they sow. That's why I was saying it is more of a mental health issue for the hoarders themselves. They seldom pose a larger public health threat. Right on entry into a private home - bad idea. Finding a means to provide mental health assistance where possible - good idea. Problem is that most of these hoarders lead otherwise "normal" lives and fly under the radar. And once picked up, flatly deny there is an issue and aren't interesting in changing.

And I agree with RL's take - these folks "choose" to live like this. I've tried to educate them as to the hazards. Offered to install smoke alarms, etc. But I also make sure my local fire chiefs know where these homes are located. They will be ones having to make the call whether to commit firefighters to an interior attack.

[Rogue Leader]

It actually was pretty rare but these days you're just hearing about it more and more. In the NY fire service we have a term for homes like this we call them Collyer's Mansions after these "semi famous" New Yorkers: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collyer_Mansion . Recently I've heard of a few more cases like this one (although the houses didn't burn down, the health dept came and removed the people from the house, usually because there was dead animals on in one case a dead body buried in the rubble).


...
Then it comes down to a firefighter's approach. They aren't going to go in an area with a compromised structure unless they determine it's unavoidable. The bigger problem is moving through those little deer trails through the house with all that gear trying to find the people. In this case, that delay may have cost them their lives.
....

You have a point. In the fire we had there were a few factors working against us. Firstly it was on July 4th early in the morning, so its usually safe to assume someone is actually home on that day, which we did assume. Also we were able to make immediate entry to the basement as this house had a side entrance, usually it takes us longer to get there because we have to go through the house. Arguably if we had to sift through all that crap just to get to the basement we may have just backed off and went on the defensive as soon as we determined there was noone in there. Finally due to all the junk what should have been a roaring fire throughout the basement, instead was contained to a smaller hotter area that burned its way through the floor. There was too much crap for us to hit the base of the fire, and it was working for a while on an already weakened floor (the house was OLD).

Also while we have notes on a lot of properties in the area, with thousands of properties in the area we can't catch them all. This one we had no idea till we walked in the door.