2012 Bahrain GP

[Insomniac]

Are people boycotting this thing? Last month Dan Rather reports had a story on Bahrain. Not surprised at all that the protesters would use the influx of media to their advantage. Personally, the amount of money they (F1) are making must be crazy. I'd think all things being equal, they'd just cancel the race.

[opinionated ow]

I'm glad it is happening. Sport shouldn't be involved in politics or political correctness no matter who is right or wrong.

[Trevor Longman]

But by going at all you are siding with the government and by skipping it you're siding with the protesters. F1 can't just be indifferent the situation. They have to understand that no matter what they do they're going to be stuck in the middle of this conflict. In my opinion I would rather be stuck in the middle of that conflict sitting at home back in Europe than on the grounds in Bahrain.

I'm very afraid of what could happen tomorrow. This race is a prime target for any protester trying to make a statement in front of a large worldwide audience. I know the security is going to be tight but if anybody wanted to do something badly enough there is always a way. :shakehead

My big question though is why the Bahrain government even wanted this race to happen so badly. In 2004 they started this race to gain credibility as a country, TBH the race is the only reason I even know of Bahrain at all. They spent the money building the track and paid Bernie's ridiculous sanctioning fees to be part of the elite group of countries that have an F1 race and to be taken seriously. This weekend theres not going to be anyone coming away thinking highly of Bahrain. All there is is bad press wondering why Formula 1 is even there. Journalists have been writing all weekend about the attacks and the dangers of being there. At least by canceling the race they're diverting a little of the world attention away from themselves but instead they chose to shine the spotlight directly on all the violence and chaos, and isn't that just what the protesters would want? :confused:

[opinionated ow]

I'm very afraid of what could happen tomorrow. This race is a prime target for any protester trying to make a statement in front of a large worldwide audience. I know the security is going to be tight but if anybody wanted to do something badly enough there is always a way. :shakehead

IMHO it is no different to the threat of rioters during the London Olympics...

[RTKar]

The question should be why does F1 want to be in Bahrain anyway?

We've seen Spa dropped, the USGP, yet Mercedes and Ferrari sell many if not most of their cars here, France dropped and Silverstone held hostage. Look at the grandstands in Bahrain, No one!

[Andrew Longman]

The question should be why does F1 want to be in Bahrain anyway?!Because the check cleared.

[WickerBill]

Fun race. I wonder if Seb was looking at the rest of the podium and thinking "well this looks ominous..."

[gjc2]

During the broadcast Bob Varsha mentioned that Nico Rosberg was only the third son of a world champion to win a grand prix. I know that Damon Hill is one, who is the other?

[WickerBill]

I wondered the same thing... Michael A never won, Nelson piquet jr never won, Gilles wasn't world champ...

[DagoFast]

Did one of Black Jack's kids ever win a GP?

[Indy]

IMHO it is no different to the threat of rioters during the London Olympics...

Oh, grow up. Would you have attended the Nazi Olympics? The reality is that the thugs with guns who run Bahrain are truly oppressing the people. That is why they can afford Bernie's extortion check, because they are sucking the country dry (literally) and screwing the people. These aren't leftist kids in London complaining about cuts in the dole (or whatever), this is real evil causing real human misery.

[gjc2]

Did one of Black Jack's kids ever win a GP?

Nope.

Alberto Ascari's father, Antonio was a pre-war champion, but I assumed Varsha meant the son of a modern era champion.

[DagoFast]

Nope.

Alberto Ascari's father, Antonio was a pre-war champion, but I assumed Varsha meant the son of a modern era champion.

Thank you! I learned something new today. :D

[opinionated ow]

Oh, grow up. Would you have attended the Nazi Olympics? The reality is that the thugs with guns who run Bahrain are truly oppressing the people. That is why they can afford Bernie's extortion check, because they are sucking the country dry (literally) and screwing the people. These aren't leftist kids in London complaining about cuts in the dole (or whatever), this is real evil causing real human misery.

If I was an elite athlete and I had qualified to represent my country or was the family of an athlete yes. Just as I would have done in Moscow, Beijing or the Indian Commonwealth Games. Sport > politics.

[Indy]

If I was an elite athlete and I had qualified to represent my country or was the family of an athlete yes. Just as I would have done in Moscow, Beijing or the Indian Commonwealth Games. Sport > politics.

But this is not normal "politics." This is a people actively fighting for something better who are being brutally oppressed, right now. Perhaps I am an idealist, but that trumps sport every time. And it definitely trumps business. I dare say Bernie is delighted by these events, as they make the dictators of the country even more willing to spend anything to host another gran prix in order to claw back an ounce of credibility. I can picture him rubbing his blood-stained, greedy little troll hands together in glee.

[cameraman]

But this is not normal "politics." This is a people actively fighting for something better who are being brutally oppressed, right now.

It isn't quite that simple. It is really a Shi'ite/Sunni division and a significant number of those "freedom fighters" are old line Shi'ite fundamentalists who want to overthrow the Sunni Prince who gave women the vote a few years back. They want to remove the women from the workplace/government and get them back into chadris and turn the place into a Taliban-esque state. That's an interesting take on "freedom".

No one in this situation is the good guy. The Sunnis in control have been ruthless in their oppression of the Shi'ites and the Shi'ites want to turn back the clock on what was/is one of the most Western behaving governments in the Gulf.

[cameraman]

Following the controversial Bahrain Grand Prix, several British journalists have been held by police on the Gulf island. Violent disturbances which saw some 50,000 anti-government protesters gathering around the capital Manama, just 25 miles from the race track. Although the race went without a hitch, Channel 4 News' foreign affairs correspondent Jonathan Miller was arrested along with his cameraman Joe Sheffer and producer Dave Fuller. They had been in the country on tourist visas. According to reports, they were arrested after filming a protest in a small village, following a car chase in which they were tracked by a helicopter and surrounded by "scores" of balaclava clad police. The group were detained for several hours at a police station before being driven to an airport where they are awaiting deportation. Although the journalists are said to be unharmed, concerns have been raised about the welfare of their driver, British-Bahraini human rights activist Dr Ala'a Shehabi. He was allegedly arrested and beaten in front of the crew, suffering cuts and other injuries. Mr Miller claimed riot police were using tear gas as a "weapon of intimidation" with canisters being fired at protesters like bullets. "What I have seen suggests the police are using weapons which are causing injuries to those who are protesting," he added. "These people are being hit by tear gas canisters on a regular basis."http://www.itn.co.uk/uk/43751/British+journalists+arrested+in+Bahrain

These guys are not the sharpest tools in the shed. Working on tourist visas, getting in a high speed car chase with the police, and being surprised that riot police were shooting tear gas directly at people. The guy is a clown. Yet the Bahraini police didn't kill/beat him to a pulp. I wonder if he would have been so lucky with the NYC police at an Occupy removal raid.

Between a Rock & a Hard Place (http://mag.gpweek.com/#folio=18)
Bahrainis Speak - in support of the race (http://mag.gpweek.com/#folio=4)
Bahrainis Speak - against the race (http://mag.gpweek.com/#folio=5)
And yes Bernie is evil...
(In)Vested Interests (http://mag.gpweek.com/#folio=7)

[Indy]

It isn't quite that simple. It is really a Shi'ite/Sunni division and a significant number of those "freedom fighters" are old line Shi'ite fundamentalists who want to overthrow the Sunni Prince who gave women the vote a few years back. They want to remove the women from the workplace/government and get them back into chadris and turn the place into a Taliban-esque state. That's an interesting take on "freedom".

No one in this situation is the good guy. The Sunnis in control have been ruthless in their oppression of the Shi'ites and the Shi'ites want to turn back the clock on what was/is one of the most Western behaving governments in the Gulf.

I would buy that, except that the crackdown on the protesters has been brutal, including torture and economic punishment, like blacklisting protesters and their families so that they are unemployable in the kingdom. You can throw any mitigating factors you want at it, but in the end it is about the thugs with the guns oppressing the other people. If we really believe in self-determination, shouldn't the other people have the chance to decide for themselves?

If I go any further with this it will probably become political, so I will drop it, but I will say the following because it cuts across party and ideological lines and boils down to basic morals. When did we stop being the good guys? And by that, I mean the people who supported self-determination for everyone in the world. The sad truth is that when it was OUR self-determination at stake, we were saints and the bad guys were evil, but when someone else's freedom threatens our national security, we suddenly find all sorts of shades of grey to allow ourselves to choose the tyrant. My opinion is that this is not only immoral, it hurts us in the long run by creating so many bad feelings toward our country.

[datachicane]

Don't kid yourself, none of it matters except the $$$.

Bernie would race in North Korea, Myanmar, or the depths of hell itself as long as the check cleared, and that without the slightest twinge of moral conscience. Everything else is just a rationalization to make the masses feel better about it.

[Andrew Longman]

When did we stop being the good guys?First, we were never all that good. Research some of the arms dealing of Prescott Bush. Or the banana wars in South/Central America. Or that our (the North) intentions were not all that unified or pure in the Civil war. Or that a good chunk of Americans wanted nothing to do with either world wars until the US was attacked.

But OK. Democracy is messy. Free market capitalism puts a premium some exploit at the expense of several noble ideas. Still, I don't have a better idea.

Especially when it really counted (and maybe there is no other choice) the US and its allies HAVE been the good guys.

Bahrain sits in the middle of a whole lotta oil. And their banking system controls a whole lotta of the worlds money. And the Navy ports IIRC the 5th fleet there. The Royal family owns IIRC 50% of McLaren. HTF did that happen?

Its not so much political as business. And business rules all... until people stop making money. Then it becomes political. In short, that is the cusp I think this race is close to crossing.

Sorry nrc if that is too political, but my point is this issue to date has been been driven by the money that funds any racing, and drives most business decisions... up to the point that the economics don't work anymore.

[Napoleon]

And the Navy ports IIRC the 5th fleet there.

You are correct and IMO that is the biggest reason we use kid gloves with them. Way to much oil flows out of that region and we just have to have our ships as close by as possible just in case someone gets the idea it would be fun to see what happened if the Straits of Hormuz or the Suez Canal was shut down.

Of course F-1 doesn't have that excuse.

[cameraman]

When did we stop being the good guys?

When did we start?

[Indy]

I am just bitter because Bernie is still alive. Die, you troll. :mad:

[Rex Karz]

I am just bitter because Bernie is still alive. Die, you troll. :mad:

Given his age, maybe we ought to start thinking of Uncle Bernie's legacy.

Would F1 have been as successful without him? To say it's a financial success is an understatement. Uncle Bernie has his many faults, but he didn't run things into the ground like some coke-addled Hoosier did less than two decades ago. Long after he's sleepin' wid da fishes, will we all look back on this era with nostalgia? When we look back 20 years from now, will we remember the Bahrain Grand Prix? In 20 years, will the F1 circus consist of a half dozen races, like it did in the 1960s?

Guess we'll know in a generation.

[Indy]

Well, sometimes the price of success is success. And if this is what it looks like, then ...meh.

[Andrew Longman]

All good points Rex. But BE was aided by the emergence of a global economy and the explosion of broadcasting worldwide.

The former allowed him to sell races to government in places that a generation ago may not have had basic sanitation but now will pay 30 super big ones to look equal with the former world powers. The latter made his tv product astromically valuable.

In both cases I would say that F1 is failing to do the things to create new fans they will need 10-25 years from now. Crap, even what they need now. See all venues, some fairly new, that are off the schedule. And many of those governments are beginning to question the wisdom of paying BEs fee.

Then there is the issue of this making any business sense for the manufacturers

[datachicane]

I just finished rewatching 'Nine days in Summer'. There may be far more $$$ now, but we've definitely lost something important in the bargain.

[gjc2]

During the broadcast Bob Varsha mentioned that Nico Rosberg was only the third son of a world champion to win a grand prix. I know that Damon Hill is one, who is the other?

Bob responded to a message I sent him through the Speed website. He miss-spoke, he meant to say Nico is the third second generation driver.

[indyfan31]

Bob responded to a message I sent him through the Speed website. He miss-spoke, he meant to say Nico is the third second generation driver.

ok. what's the difference between "second generation" and "son of"? And who is the third . . . descendant? :)

[datachicane]

Jacques, son of Gilles.

[gerhard911]

Wouldn't Nelson Piquet, Jr. make it four?

edit - Was this only supposed to be race winners?

[gjc2]

ok. what's the difference between "second generation" and "son of"? And who is the third . . . descendant? :)

Varsha incorrectly stated that Nico was the third son of a world champion to win a GP when he meant to say third second generation driver to win a GP. Nico was the second son of a world champion to win an F1 race. Damon Hill was the first son of a world champion to win a grand prix, and the only son of a F1 champion to win a championship himself.

[devilmaster]

http://en.espnf1.com/f1/motorsport/story/31079.html

the context to the discussion was only race winners....

but the article above gives a quick look at father son F1 pairings...

[Rex Karz]

All good points Rex. But BE was aided by the emergence of a global economy and the explosion of broadcasting worldwide.

Saying Uncle Bernie was aided by the global economy worldwide broadasting is sort of like saying Bill Gates was aided by the boom in the PC market. One thing affects the other, even if the two are unrelated. A successful businessperson sees the opportuntiies and takes advantages of them (even if he is a rather mean-spirited little prick). And Uncle Bernie hasn't just sat in his basement counting his ill-gotten gains. He's gone out and gotten more ill-gotten gains.


The former allowed him to sell races to government in places that a generation ago may not have had basic sanitation but now will pay 30 super big ones to look equal with the former world powers. The latter made his tv product astromically valuable.

True again.


In both cases I would say that F1 is failing to do the things to create new fans they will need 10-25 years from now. Crap, even what they need now. See all venues, some fairly new, that are off the schedule. And many of those governments are beginning to question the wisdom of paying BEs fee.

When Bernie took over, there really were only two worldwide sports: The Olympics and the World Cup. F1 makes no. 3. And how else does one create new fans except by going to new countries? I don't think that the GP in Malaysia creates many new F1 fans here in the U.S. when the race starts at like 2 a.m. When the tobacco money dried up 15 years ago on the one hand I was happy as my mother died of lung cancer yet sad because I knew F1 and motor racing in general would suffer. Yet somehow F1 survived and grew. I suspect F1 will stay for a while in places like China (but on orders from the central governmnet), Malaysia, and Singapore. But Turkey's gone and I have my doubts about India (with no real history of motorsports of any type) and Korea (the worldwide recession when the track was being built is probably going to doom it to any hope of long-term survival). But in a changing world with changing economics, one can't just sit on the "traditional" places like Silverstone, Monza, and Monaco and expect the business to succeed. You have to go out and find new markets, even if some of those new markets eventually fail.


Then there is the issue of this making any business sense for the manufacturers

I too have long questioned the wisdom of spending cubic kilometers of euros to develop an engine for F1, if not starting a team. But Mercedes and Renault have hung around long enough that I doubt they will be leaving anytime soon. They must be getting something out of it. Would be nice to again see manufacturers like Toyota, Honda, and BMW back. Or perhaps change the rules to allow Cosworth to actually be able to compete with (and defeat) teams like Ferrari. As Steve Machett said in his book and on F1 broadcasts many times, F1 is all about spending boatloads of money to gain a fraction of a second on the track. And if businesses are willing to spend the money . . .

[cameraman]

Oy vey.

http://www.enduringamerica.com/home/2012/4/25/bahrain-special-how-regime-supporters-became-the-silent-majo.html

One thing is clear, everyone in Bahrain has an agenda and centrists seem to be extremely rare...

[NismoZ]

There's only ONE solution! Replace that race with the Vatican City GP!