Owners want Randy Bernard OUT

[nrc]

I agree with Dando that changing times and interests would have caused some decline from the peak in any case. I think a soft landing at a sustainable level would have been possible if it weren't for :tony: and dump trucks full of Yen.

[NismoZ]

"Fun" rehashing, interpreting, reliving, blaming, unblaming, REblaming...some things and some people who have been the object or TARGET of our thoughts since '82 or '95 or ??...BUT, is THIS a counter, counter revolution or what? Angry team owners is one thing but hearing that Barnes and :tony: are involved!? Penske gone silent? Who or where, in your humble (;)) opinions, would be the best sources for what is actually going on NOW? You know, the racing truth!:rofl:

[pfc_m_drake]

Ask the Saints about that. Different answer. Rozelle managed the NFL through the AFL/NFL merger and got it to work despite some VERY strong and different owners. Think Al Davis, Lamar Hunt, Paul Brown, Tex Schramm, and yes, Ralph Wilson. He played hardball with the players in the 80s that resulted in relative peace with the players, while the MLB, NHL and NBA have canceled parts and/or entire seasons. Rozelle made the right moves with the networks to get the TV deals in place that allowed the NFL to explode into the 800 lb. gorilla it is today. Wilson may have spouted off, but @ the end of the day it was Rozelle and his henchmen working the deals and keeping the owners in line through thick and thin. Yes, the commish may have a bully pulpit to a certain extent, but the fines, penalties and suspensions issued from the pulpit still stand. There are countless examples of this over the past several years from the Patriots and Cameragate, the Saints and Bountygate to the Skins and Cowboys being penalized for cap violations during the 'uncapped '10 season (which were upheld by an independent arbiter, BTW), and players being fined and/or suspended for on field actions. The NFL commish is by know means a 'figure head'. Now if your point was about Tagliabue, I might buy that argument, but not Rozelle and Goodell. No way. Should have picked on Selig if you want to use an example of a figure head.

-Kevin
Come on Kevin, you're smarter than that.

Cameragate, Bountygare, and the cap violations are all instances of one or two entities violating rules and acting against the best interests of the rest of the league. In other words, the actions of those entities were, in effect, ultimately undermining the league.

Put it another way - I wonder how successful the commissioner would have been in penalizing teams for cap violations if, say, 27 teams were involved rather than 1 or 2? Should be no problem right - I'm sure the independent arbitrator would have upheld the decision and all 27 teams would have paid up.

Regarding Pete Rozelle, you hold him in very high regard and the reality is that he didn't do a whole bunch to earn your esteem. Did you know that Pete Rozelle always opposed the idea of an AFL/NFL Championship Game (now Super Bowl), and it wasn't until the owners insisted that he ultimately relented. But perhaps the most interesting fact is that he was completely left out of the AFL/NFL merger negotiations and consistently opposed unifying of the leagues. It wasn't until the owners brokered a deal without his knowledge that he relented (obviously with no other choice). Read the part on The AFL in this link:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pete_Rozelle

We're pretty far-field at this point, but in an effort to bring the discussion back to racing, here's some food for thought: Just like Dan Gurney pointed out in the white paper, the owners hold all the real power. The commissioner may look good on TV and get a lot of credit that he may or may not deserve - but when the rubber meets the road, it's all about the owners.

[Racing Truth]

So, dando and nrc have already stated a good deal of what I was going to say, but here goes nothing.

At the outset, I was always more of a CART supporter than the IRL. Better teams, drivers, much better cars and better events. This is pretty obvious, both at the time and in retrospect. CART was a far superior product.

Alarms started sounding for me pretty early. By '99, watching any CART short oval or inter. oval race was a chore, and that's because the series completely screwed up the aero package. That was partially b/c they couldn't figure out how to handle the speed question.

We hit 240+ at Fontana in '97. The answer? Hanford. Now, unlike others, I was OK w/ those races, but it pointed to a larger problem. A radical formula rethink was in order, to keep speeds from killing someone, but their answer? Half-baked band-aids.

Now, imagine a world in which TG isn't a moron and doesn't split. "All's well!" you say. No, it wasn't. The storm was building, folks. The split surely hastened NASCAR's surge; it DID NOT cause it. NASCAR was surging pre-split, it would have continued w/o it. The fight for sponsor $$$ would have hurt us, no question in my mind. Less sponsors equals less overall $$$ to work with. That is significant adversity that would have required everyone to work together.

CART was inherently incapable of this. 15-20 different interests had to magically align perfectly to work. Needless to say, this rarely happened. Whether it was engine policy, aero package or, yes, the Speedway itself, coming up with coherent, unified policies was impossible. This was always a problem, but it didn't surface in the good times; it was in everyone's interest to ride the wave/gravytrain. The moment adversity hit, the whole thing imploded.

Years ago, I firmly thought that, if not for TG and the IRL, all would mostly be well. I was dead wrong. When they needed to, these people couldn't organize a lemonade stand together, let alone an entire sport. The fact that there were too many self-interests involved now seems obvious to me. In retrospect, CART seems doomed almost from day one.

It's easy to be seduced by the on-track product of '95, but keep a few things in mind. Villeneuve, our champ, was off to F1. Vasser was champ in '96, but after him, the number of North American season champs in CART/CC? ZERO. For an NA-based sport, that's an issue. Worse yet, the number of compettitive NA drivers steadily plummeted.

Why? B/c the entire sport, but esp. the brilliant owners, ignored/whizzed on the entire ladder system. It was a good system too. Instead, the Valiante's, Fogarty's, Gurneys, etc. were passed over. Why? I suspect too many owners wanted to continue funding their extravagant at-track lifestyles, while still being compettitive. Now, I don't begrudge such things, provided it isn't at the expense of deserving drivers. By this time, though, fresh blood was clearly being pushed aside, in favor of ride-buyers, guys whose main goal was F1 or both. For each owner, this made sense. For the series/sport, it did not.

The storm was coming anyway. The ascendancy of NASCAR was very real, the lack of NA emerging stars was very real. Engine politics, aero debacles, formula issues... Tony George had little to do with them. In a split-less world, I have no doubt CART would have handled these challenges exactly like they did in the real world: Poorly.

Would the sport be this bad off? No. Would the 500 be getting 8.5-9.0 ratings? I highly doubt it. Maybe 5.5-6.0. A well-run org. could have mitigated some of these challenges. CART was not well-run.

So now, to quote Neil Kinnock, you come full circle to the grotesque spectacle of owners, delusional owners, trying to coup Randy Bernard, who brought the series out of the red, in favor of... Brian Barnhart.:shakehead

[pfc_m_drake]

So, dando and nrc have already stated a good deal of what I was going to say, but here goes nothing.

At the outset, I was always more of a CART supporter than the IRL. Better teams, drivers, much better cars and better events. This is pretty obvious, both at the time and in retrospect. CART was a far superior product.

Alarms started sounding for me pretty early. By '99, watching any CART short oval or inter. oval race was a chore, and that's because the series completely screwed up the aero package. That was partially b/c they couldn't figure out how to handle the speed question.

We hit 240+ at Fontana in '97. The answer? Hanford. Now, unlike others, I was OK w/ those races, but it pointed to a larger problem. A radical formula rethink was in order, to keep speeds from killing someone, but their answer? Half-baked band-aids.

Now, imagine a world in which TG isn't a moron and doesn't split. "All's well!" you say. No, it wasn't. The storm was building, folks. The split surely hastened NASCAR's surge; it DID NOT cause it. NASCAR was surging pre-split, it would have continued w/o it. The fight for sponsor $$$ would have hurt us, no question in my mind. Less sponsors equals less overall $$$ to work with. That is significant adversity that would have required everyone to work together.

CART was inherently incapable of this. 15-20 different interests had to magically align perfectly to work. Needless to say, this rarely happened. Whether it was engine policy, aero package or, yes, the Speedway itself, coming up with coherent, unified policies was impossible. This was always a problem, but it didn't surface in the good times; it was in everyone's interest to ride the wave/gravytrain. The moment adversity hit, the whole thing imploded.

Years ago, I firmly thought that, if not for TG and the IRL, all would mostly be well. I was dead wrong. When they needed to, these people couldn't organize a lemonade stand together, let alone an entire sport. The fact that there were too many self-interests involved now seems obvious to me. In retrospect, CART seems doomed almost from day one.

It's easy to be seduced by the on-track product of '95, but keep a few things in mind. Villeneuve, our champ, was off to F1. Vasser was champ in '96, but after him, the number of North American season champs in CART/CC? ZERO. For an NA-based sport, that's an issue. Worse yet, the number of compettitive NA drivers steadily plummeted.

Why? B/c the entire sport, but esp. the brilliant owners, ignored/whizzed on the entire ladder system. It was a good system too. Instead, the Valiante's, Fogarty's, Gurneys, etc. were passed over. Why? I suspect too many owners wanted to continue funding their extravagant at-track lifestyles, while still being compettitive. Now, I don't begrudge such things, provided it isn't at the expense of deserving drivers. By this time, though, fresh blood was clearly being pushed aside, in favor of ride-buyers, guys whose main goal was F1 or both. For each owner, this made sense. For the series/sport, it did not.

The storm was coming anyway. The ascendancy of NASCAR was very real, the lack of NA emerging stars was very real. Engine politics, aero debacles, formula issues... Tony George had little to do with them. In a split-less world, I have no doubt CART would have handled these challenges exactly like they did in the real world: Poorly.

Would the sport be this bad off? No. Would the 500 be getting 8.5-9.0 ratings? I highly doubt it. Maybe 5.5-6.0. A well-run org. could have mitigated some of these challenges. CART was not well-run.

So now, to quote Neil Kinnock, you come full circle to the grotesque spectacle of owners, delusional owners, trying to coup Randy Bernard, who brought the series out of the red, in favor of... Brian Barnhart.:shakehead
When a butterfly flaps its wings in one part of the world it can cause a hurricane in another part of the world.

By starting the IRL and creating the split, Tony George did more than cause hurricanes in the world of open wheeled racing.

Just as one example, if open wheel had continued as a 'unified' entity from 1996 onward, it's very likely that the engine manufacturers agree to a new engine spec due to increasing speeds probably rolled out circa 1999. It becomes a much easier justification for them to spend the $$$ than it is with two warring factions. In fact, if we could go back in time, you might find a large part of the CART owner's 'paralysis' in decision making stemmed from the hope that the two sides would get back together.

I always 'fondly' remember the story of how Derrick Walker, Barry Green, and the engine manufacturers brokered a merger with TG back in 1998. Word had it that Leo Mehl had the press release announcing the merger in-hand, but TG changed his mind.

We'll never know where we would be if TG hadn't decided to split open-wheeled racing.

What we *do* know is that we would NOT be where we are now.

[Napoleon]

In fact, if we could go back in time, you might find a large part of the CART owner's 'paralysis' in decision making stemmed from the hope that the two sides would get back together.

No need to go back in time. In fact that is the case, particularity in regards to equipment.

[DagoFast]

So, dando and nrc have already stated a good deal of what I was going to say, but here goes nothing.

yadda yadda yadda.



So now, to quote Neil Kinnock, you come full circle to the grotesque spectacle of owners, delusional owners, trying to coup Randy Bernard, who brought the series out of the red, in favor of... Brian Barnhart.:shakehead

Hey, it's been unified since 2008. It's YOUR series. Enjoy it. :gomer:

[Rocketdoc]

"Fun" rehashing, interpreting, reliving, blaming, unblaming, REblaming...some things and some people who have been the object or TARGET of our thoughts since '82 or '95 or ??...BUT, is THIS a counter, counter revolution or what? Angry team owners is one thing but hearing that Barnes and :tony: are involved!? Penske gone silent? Who or where, in your humble (;)) opinions, would be the best sources for what is actually going on NOW? You know, the racing truth!:rofl:

Ziggy.

[Chief]

Hey, it's been unified since 2008. It's YOUR series. Enjoy it. :gomer:

Man, when gomers want to toss out CART references, THAT ^^^ right thar is S-C-O-R-E-B-O-A-R-D! :thumbup:

My skin is WAY exhausted in this game....they can inbreed and implode on each other forever for all I care.

[Rocketdoc]

Here we are, decades since Tony George (IMO) blew American Racing apart and who are we discussing? Yeah, Tony George.
As long as that destructive influence has anything at all to do with this kind of racing, it is dead to me. That also goes for his sisters and mother.
That's OK with me. I haven't really missed it, and I've made the decision to ignore it in every way as long as it has any attachment to the IMS or the Hulman-George cabal.

[Easy]

Another aspect of the late 90s manufacturer craziness, split or no split:

Toyota and Honda's increased financial support masked the fact that the sponsorship models were no longer working. Even the Big Box retail sponsorship model where the title sponsor isn't actually paying full title sponsor prices wasn't enough to justify costs anymore so for example, Chip took the Toyota cash to fund and pocket. The cost model was completely unsustainable and we've seen the results of MFR dominated series time and time again. Once they leave, lights out.

Ford was never interested in propping up teams and Mercedes bailed when they realized the levels Honda and Toyota were willing to go in their backyard bloodbath. Once Toyota got serious CART was in severe danger because it never protected the privateer. Hell, even Coyne had to go away until they were running old cars with de-tuned engines and handing out subsidies.

I think Bernie is beyond reason a lot of the time but he was always smart in his treatment of MFR owned teams because they will leave sooner than later and will destroy the sandbox if you give them their way.

[Racing Truth]

Another aspect of the late 90s manufacturer craziness, split or no split:

Toyota and Honda's increased financial support masked the fact that the sponsorship models were no longer working. Even the Big Box retail sponsorship model where the title sponsor isn't actually paying full title sponsor prices wasn't enough to justify costs anymore so for example, Chip took the Toyota cash to fund and pocket. The cost model was completely unsustainable and we've seen the results of MFR dominated series time and time again. Once they leave, lights out.

Ford was never interested in propping up teams and Mercedes bailed when they realized the levels Honda and Toyota were willing to go in their backyard bloodbath. Once Toyota got serious CART was in severe danger because it never protected the privateer. Hell, even Coyne had to go away until they were running old cars with de-tuned engines and handing out subsidies.

I think Bernie is beyond reason a lot of the time but he was always smart in his treatment of MFR owned teams because they will leave sooner than later and will destroy the sandbox if you give them their way.

To further it and respond to pfc, the issue is this: Would a unified CART, with no IRL, have been better able to deal with Honda and Toyota? "The sport would have been better off, giving everyone a reason to cooperate." That would have to be the argument b/c the empirical data says otherwise.

But would it have mattered? As Easy points out, Honda and 'Yota were more interested in their own blood feud at that time, regardless of the series they were in. Honda and Toy. owners would have gone to bat for their mftrs., making enforcement incoherent or non-existent. Eventually, they'd have left altogether (NASCAR?), and there'd have been huge problems. Maybe they stay on for a couple extra yrs. (or maybe not), but it ends the same..

On a related note, explain to me how a unified, "let the good times roll" CART would have been any more interested in a formula rethink than the split-era CART was? By the late 90's, CART desperately needed a formula to check speeds AND reduce costs. Did they even sniff the notion, even though it was BADLY needed?

[Indy]

RT, I suppose you could make the argument that CART failed because it was not a dictatorship. But then you have to ask why the IRL failed. They were a dictatorship and they had every advantage, including the hostage Indy 500. Why did it take them so long to kill CART? Why did they never become profitable?

[Methanolandbrats]

CART failed because the money left for the IRL. The money left because FTG kicked CART out of Indy and the sponsors believed without Indy there was no ROI. How did that now 16 year old experiment work out? George was wrong, the sponsors were wrong, Andretti, Floyd, The Captain, Rahole, Fernandez and all those other ****ers were wrong. CART was successful because it was real racing, NOT because of an Indycentric connection and fans can tell the difference. If George had not made his powerplay, CART would still be around. It would have gone through ups and downs, but every venue was packed, television ratings were good and it was on solid ground. I am so sick of people defending George. That asswipe single handedly destroyed not only almost a century of innovation and tradition at Indy, he also destroyed AOW. It will go down in history as perhaps the dumbest ****ing move by any CEO in any business, ever.

[pfc_m_drake]

Holy mackerel.


To further it and respond to pfc, the issue is this: Would a unified CART, with no IRL, have been better able to deal with Honda and Toyota? "The sport would have been better off, giving everyone a reason to cooperate." That would have to be the argument b/c the empirical data says otherwise.
Of course a unified CART with no IRL would have been in a better position to 'deal' with Honda and Toyota. And it has nothing to do with cooperation. I think that one thing that has happened is that, over the last 16 years, people have (conveniently) forgotten how much acrimony the split caused - probably in an effort to further their own agenda.


But would it have mattered? As Easy points out, Honda and 'Yota were more interested in their own blood feud at that time, regardless of the series they were in. Honda and Toy. owners would have gone to bat for their mftrs., making enforcement incoherent or non-existent. Eventually, they'd have left altogether (NASCAR?), and there'd have been huge problems. Maybe they stay on for a couple extra yrs. (or maybe not), but it ends the same..
Yeah, I think when people bring up this Honda and Toyota 'blood feud' they're pretty much talking out of their asses. Again, selective memories - people forget the CART manufacturers forums that were held over the years...far from a 'blood feud'. At the end things got messy, but there were a lot of reasons for that - best left to another post.

Just to add one thing though: I notice people whip out statements "They'd have left anyway and gone to NASCAR and everything would have ended up the way it did no matter what" and they think it makes them sound smart. I'm not AT ALL willing to stipulate that Toyota would have left a unified CART series with no IRL and the Indy 500 as its crown jewel. As far as Honda goes...I can't help but notice they're the only ones who HAVEN'T left (open wheeled racing). Kind of makes that argument moot.


On a related note, explain to me how a unified, "let the good times roll" CART would have been any more interested in a formula rethink than the split-era CART was? By the late 90's, CART desperately needed a formula to check speeds AND reduce costs. Did they even sniff the notion, even though it was BADLY needed?
Selective memory even though I already led you to water in my previous post.

http://web.archive.org/web/19991205230032/http://www.champcar.com/news98/sc_n1112_98.html

That was November 12th, 1998 when it was 'leaked' that CART's engine manufacturers had been trying to work out a deal for unification.

http://champcar.com/news98/sc_n1118_98.html

That was a week later when TG told them to go pound sand. You'll notice that the 'sticking point' was allegedly the leasing aspect. We all know that's BS because TG was only too happy to accomodate the engine manufacturers' wishes for a leasing program when they bailed on CART. However, the most important tidbit (and the answer to your question as to whether CART ever even sniffed the idea of a formula change is contained in the second article:


CART is expected to change from its current 2.65-litre, turbocharged format beginning in 2000 as well, but was believed to be holding back until the IRL announced its package.

I remember Jon Beekhuis talking to John Kernan on RPM tonight about this issue. CART, at the time, had a 2 year engine stability clause in their rulebook, and as such once a certain window of opportunity had passed, there was no changing away from the 2.65L formula for that set length of time. The manufacturers, after being rebuked by TG/IRL had agreed in principle to a V-6 formula for CART going forward. However, it was felt that negotiations were so close to yielding fruit that the best thing to do would be to stick with the 2.65 formula, mitigate speeds with boost reductions and Handford devices, and continue to pursue unification with the IRL. As such, the window of opportunity on an engine formula revision closed. When the window opened again, the landscape had changed dramatically.

So yes, CART was taking a serious look at formula revisions, but didn't because it was seriously believed that a deal could be brokered with the IRL instead.

[Andrew Longman]

Rozelle managed the NFL through the AFL/NFL merger and got it to work despite some VERY strong and different owners. Think Al Davis, Lamar Hunt, Paul Brown, Tex Schramm, and yes, Ralph Wilson. Yes.Very much yes. But he also dealt with Rooney and Mara (and to a point Modell) who could have been real pains but instead demonstrated enlightened self interest by supporting revenue sharing and a long view (and supported Rozelle)

If they had gone the other way Rozelle would have been toast. Instead they, from their position of power in their biggest markets and most established teams, shamed the other owners into going along with Rozelles' vision.

[Easy]

CART failed because the money left for the IRL. The money left because FTG kicked CART out of Indy and the sponsors believed without Indy there was no ROI. How did that now 16 year old experiment work out? George was wrong, the sponsors were wrong, Andretti, Floyd, The Captain, Rahole, Fernandez and all those other ****ers were wrong. CART was successful because it was real racing, NOT because of an Indycentric connection and fans can tell the difference. If George had not made his powerplay, CART would still be around. It would have gone through ups and downs, but every venue was packed, television ratings were good and it was on solid ground. I am so sick of people defending George. That asswipe single handedly destroyed not only almost a century of innovation and tradition at Indy, he also destroyed AOW. It will go down in history as perhaps the dumbest ****ing move by any CEO in any business, ever.

If you want to boil success down to "real racing" then Winged Sprint Cars (a fairly easily organized world championship with existing infrastructure in North America, Australia, Europe, and South Africa) would be the biggest racing series on the planet.

To the argument of selling a CART sponsorship sans the series former biggest ticket and TV draw: Say I'm selling an F1 deal (fairly comparable in US$ in 1994) and I tell my existing "partner" Global Corporation X:

"Oh, by the way, we love the 8 figure sum you give us for worldwide brand exposure BUT we aren't going to race at Monaco this year. The Prince has to decided to be a bit of a **** currently and may (will) lock us out of the biggest race of the year unless we give him some more power over the sport. He says he has this atrocious Formula Monaco World Championship idea. However we shan't comply because we (think his mother is still in full control and won't shake the boat) don't respect him or his threats all that much. After all, what does he know, he's only contested a few F3 races!"

[Easy]

I type this as someone who spent several years pitching sponsorships for non Indy 500 programs during the Split years.

The Indy 500 is the only thing that matters if you aren't selling space on an F1 or Sprint Cup car.

[Dr. Corkski]

RT, I suppose you could make the argument that CART failed because it was not a dictatorship. But then you have to ask why the IRL failed. They were a dictatorship and they had every advantage, including the hostage Indy 500. Why did it take them so long to kill CART? Why did they never become profitable?The IRL failed because it was a pure power grab, not a money grab. Dictatorships aren't foolproof, it only works when the dictators know what they are doing like Bernie and the Frances, and they also tend to fail epically when they are like Tony George and Gentiloser,,,

The attendance thing that gets brought up on a regular basis was a Pyrrhic victory when it got to the point of no one watching on TV. Had that really mattered CART/Champ Car would have chugged along with the street parades. CART had a small closing window from 96-99 to establish a marquee event but somehow managed to fail in a more epic fashion each time. Those weren't signs of competent management or a sound business model.

Honda and Toyota had zero loyalty to American open-wheel racing and no competent series runner would have expected them to do anything other than use CART as a marketing platform and to beat the crap out of each other. The owners all turned a blind eye to it because all they cared about was their own bottom lines.

[Dr. Corkski]

I type this as someone who spent several years pitching sponsorships for non Indy 500 programs during the Split years.

The Indy 500 is the only thing that matters if you aren't selling space on an F1 or Sprint Cup car.Should have just told the sponsors they were wrong, it was the foolproof way of getting sponsor $$$ according to the CART business fundamentals handbook.

[G.]

The mistakes that CART made were mostly done after the ******* with FAR too much money split the series. The revizshunist keep skipping that part.

Instead of focusing on their own series, they continually kept an eye on what the Visionarian was doing, because he'll certainly come to his senses, any day now, right? RIGHT??

They didn't realize until far too late that they were dealing with an irrational fool, bankrolled to the max.

Yes, CART had a few dark clouds on the horizon back in 1995, but they were never allowed to work (properly) on them, they were too busy trying to fight a war they never wanted, and looking over their shoulder at the IRL.

They tried working against Tony and his billions, and they tried working with him. His only goal was the death of CART. He done wonned. Enjoy that. Really.

[pfc_m_drake]

Yes.Very much yes. But he also dealt with Rooney and Mara (and to a point Modell) who could have been real pains but instead demonstrated enlightened self interest by supporting revenue sharing and a long view (and supported Rozelle)

If they had gone the other way Rozelle would have been toast. Instead they, from their position of power in their biggest markets and most established teams, shamed the other owners into going along with Rozelles' vision.
You need to read my link in post #103. Rozelle's vision was for the NFL to hold fast and not merge with the AFL, and definitely NOT to have a Super Bowl (the associated irony being in 1980 when he handed the Vince Lombardi trophy to Al Davis - Davis being the biggest proponent of an AFL/NFL Championship game).

[Methanolandbrats]

I type this as someone who spent several years pitching sponsorships for non Indy 500 programs during the Split years.

The Indy 500 is the only thing that matters if you aren't selling space on an F1 or Sprint Cup car.

Sponsors got it wrong too. That has been proven over the last 16 years. Another point is the split turned a leisure time activity that fans were willing to spend money on into a political debate that fans ignored. That also drove sponsors away.

[cameraman]

RT, I suppose you could make the argument that CART failed because it was not a dictatorship. But then you have to ask why the IRL failed. They were a dictatorship and they had every advantage, including the hostage Indy 500. Why did it take them so long to kill CART? Why did they never become profitable?

Because Tony George is an abject failure at anything he touches.

[Rogue Leader]

.....

It's easy to be seduced by the on-track product of '95, but keep a few things in mind. Villeneuve, our champ, was off to F1. Vasser was champ in '96, but after him, the number of North American season champs in CART/CC? ZERO. For an NA-based sport, that's an issue. Worse yet, the number of compettitive NA drivers steadily plummeted.
.....

Sorry can't help myself.... Paul Tracy 2003 Champ


Another aspect of the late 90s manufacturer craziness, split or no split:

Toyota and Honda's increased financial support masked the fact that the sponsorship models were no longer working. Even the Big Box retail sponsorship model where the title sponsor isn't actually paying full title sponsor prices wasn't enough to justify costs anymore so for example, Chip took the Toyota cash to fund and pocket. The cost model was completely unsustainable and we've seen the results of MFR dominated series time and time again. Once they leave, lights out.

Ford was never interested in propping up teams and Mercedes bailed when they realized the levels Honda and Toyota were willing to go in their backyard bloodbath. Once Toyota got serious CART was in severe danger because it never protected the privateer. Hell, even Coyne had to go away until they were running old cars with de-tuned engines and handing out subsidies.

I think Bernie is beyond reason a lot of the time but he was always smart in his treatment of MFR owned teams because they will leave sooner than later and will destroy the sandbox if you give them their way.

This is why Honda and Toyota came into F1 with their same formula and got promptly shellacked. And the most hilarious part is Ross Brawn picking up the pieces of Honda, the immediate next year and winning the damn championship. Then Mercedes taking over after that! Theoretically Mercedes sticking with McLaren and never going on their own until now was maybe because they were waiting for H&T to go away.

[Racing Truth]

Because Tony George is an abject failure at anything he touches.

Yep. The IRL (Really, NASCAR) dictatorship model is generally the way to go in racing. Providing the dictator isn't a total failure. In this case...:shakehead

In fact, it points out the ineptitude of CART's leadership. A better-run CART at least ends up w/ more favorable surrender/merger terms, IMHO.

And yes, I forgot PT in '03.:o

[SurfaceUnits]

Should have just told the sponsors they were wrong, it was the foolproof way of getting sponsor $$$ according to the CART business fundamentals handbook.

and the league with the track and the one race failed why?

[SteveH]

Yet, despite CART's faults and management structure it was beginning to rival F1. We'll likely not experience anything similar for a very long time, if ever in our lifetimes. Given the "opportunity" to correct what was wrong with open wheel, the creation of the IRL has destroyed the sport.

[SurfaceUnits]

Come on guys, I mean all ya need to do is cut the grass, open the gates an collect the money. I heard the IRL is gone to be bigger n NASCAR and F1. What's the problem?

I mean the only competition the IRL has is us folk on the intardnet. They don't got no family spending no hunnerts of millions of dollars to defeat them. It should be a peace of cake

[Chief]

Yep. The IRL (Really, NASCAR) dictatorship model is generally the way to go in racing. Providing the dictator isn't a total failure. In this case...:shakehead

So what of it? Are you saying Indycar today is a FAILURE, that some how IMS' dictatorship of this day is flawed? They do own the series and decides what happens in it...this has NOTHING to do with CART, just a similarity in the fact the word "owners" is being used...

And, if you take it deeper than that, it all settles on the totally inept Hulman's and the dysfunctionality within their family. Just like it always has. Right?

[Dr. Corkski]

Sponsors got it wrong too. That has been proven over the last 16 years. Another point is the split turned a leisure time activity that fans were willing to spend money on into a political debate that fans ignored. That also drove sponsors away.No they didn't, it wasn't the sponsors' fault that CART couldn't get their **** together and replace the Indy 500 with a marquee event. They didn't completely bail until it was apparent CART was unable to do so. They don't care if there was a political debate over it because it would have meant it was still relevant.

By all means, keep coming up with excuses for the owners and blaming everything else for their own failures.

[trauma1]

Too bad. Penske can act like a 5-yr.-old all he wants (BTW: Bernard had nothing to do w/ TurboGate, but nevermind), but unless he and others convince the IMS board, RB's going nowhere.

Given the people he's hired on the racing side, (http://pressdog.typepad.com/dogblog/2012/05/beaux-barfield-announces-the-end-to-babysitting.html) that's a good thing.

IT's the owners mensa man, they pay for the cars, pay the drivers, put butts in the seat, they got deathwagon12 over twice the price it was promised, spare parts costs jacked up by dullarra and the hulman clan, they get no tv $$, no $$$ from licensed appel or merchandise and you wonder why they are pissed, :gomer::gomer::gomer::gomer::gomer:

[DagoFast]

So what of it? Are you saying Indycar today is a FAILURE, that some how IMS' dictatorship of this day is flawed? They do own the series and decides what happens in it...this has NOTHING to do with CART, just a similarity in the fact the word "owners" is being used...

And, if you take it deeper than that, it all settles on the totally inept Hulman's and the dysfunctionality within their family. Just like it always has. Right?

Ding! Ding! Ding!

[trauma1]

Yep. The IRL (Really, NASCAR) dictatorship model is generally the way to go in racing. Providing the dictator isn't a total failure. In this case...:shakehead

In fact, it points out the ineptitude of CART's leadership. A better-run CART at least ends up w/ more favorable surrender/merger terms, IMHO.

And yes, I forgot PT in '03.:o

got China tickets yet :rofl::rofl:::, swallow that hulman jism much:rofl::rofl::rofl: yee ha:::tony:

[DagoFast]

IT's the owners mensa man, they pay for the cars, pay the drivers, put butts in the seat, they got deathwagon12 over twice the price it was promised, spare parts costs jacked up by dullarra and the hulman clan, they get no tv $$, no $$$ from licensed appel or merchandise and you wonder why they are pissed, :gomer::gomer::gomer::gomer::gomer:

IMS should just toss those ingrate owners out. Who needs 'em!!







Oh, wait.....:laugh:

[trauma1]

http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTanGAKtT5l33uRsNhQlxU7kaU5GuPe5 _FTfmrXMwgv9xWBWh8j

[trauma1]

IMS should just toss those ingrate owners out. Who needs 'em!!







Oh, wait.....:laugh:

oh **** , that's logical thinking my bad:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

[trauma1]

To Chief, mappy and most here:

Tony George wrecked this sport. Splitting it anytime was always going to wreck it and leave it on a deathbed. When he split it in bad faith, it made it much worse.

But Tony George didn't kill CART and any suggestion otherwise is pure revisionist nostalgia. CART as a RACING outfit was the best out there. Unfortunately, many can't seperate the great racing product we saw from the business model. It was a model that did work initially (anything was an improvement over USAC), but ended up coasting on the good times.

But the record shows that once adversity hit (the split), they couldn't do a thing. The nature of the model called for consensus in a pool of self-interest. In adversity, when decisive, proactive action is needed, they couldn't do it. To what end? IPO, popoff-gate, a series of impotent, incompetent CEO's ("Jargon Joe":gomer:), going totally sideways on the inter. ovals aero package (They made Milwaukee, Chicago Motor, etc. unwatchable), etc.

Tony George was responsible for NONE of that idiocy. None of it. The owners ultimately killed CART. Period.

Oh, BTW, by implication, you're saying that CART was beaten by a moron, not themselves. Really?

http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRSEe1lIjPZoxm-3tTagTg8KV7R_nzoTB0tNXxflj1axx5lYdoFbw

[Methanolandbrats]

Yep. The IRL (Really, NASCAR) dictatorship model is generally the way to go in racing. Providing the dictator isn't a total failure. In this case...:shakehead

In fact, it points out the ineptitude of CART's leadership. A better-run CART at least ends up w/ more favorable surrender/merger terms, IMHO.And yes, I forgot PT in '03.:o

Holy ****, you really don't know what they were dealing with do you. You cannot negotiate with an irrational megalomanic who has a bottomless check book.

[Racing Truth]

So what of it? Are you saying Indycar today is a FAILURE, that some how IMS' dictatorship of this day is flawed? They do own the series and decides what happens in it...this has NOTHING to do with CART, just a similarity in the fact the word "owners" is being used...

And, if you take it deeper than that, it all settles on the totally inept Hulman's and the dysfunctionality within their family. Just like it always has. Right?

I'm actually NOT saying that. I like RB, have enjoyed the product this year. The TG-led IRL? THAT was an unmitigated failure. Time will tell on the current interation of IndyCar. The impact of the split and other factors, might doom it anyway. What would come after that is the issue that bothers me the most: Likely nothing.

As for, "this has NOTHING to do with CART, just a similarity in the fact the word "owners" is being used...", CART's history and structure became the dominant topic on this thread. My point was and remains this: CART was badly needed in '79 and grew the sport (somewhat in spite of itself, but nevermind) tremendously. But in the end, if it refused to reform it's structure, as it did, it was headed for deep, deep trouble. Had the owners allowed a strong CEO to take over and given him/her real power, we're having a different discussion right now.

I basically agree on the H-G family dynamics now, but when I contemplate potential buyers (ISC or SMI), I like those options even less. As it is, the Board gives Randy the budget to work with (not enough, IMHO, but understandable given the TG-era money drain) and basically lets him run the show from there. I'm OK with that. Now, IFFFF RB really does get Walker to liaison on racing issues, I'll be even happier.

[Dr. Corkski]

The owners will always attempt to make a power play if they see a chance to grab a bigger piece of the pie, and that will happen since IMS isn't exactly good at this dictatorship thing. The owners already had their chance to cut IMS completely out of the pie. They have already proven they won't hesitate to bail if they see greener grass elsewhere.

[Racing Truth]

Really amazed at how many believe in the wisdom of the car owners here. History and evidence be d@mned!:gomer:

The same owners who followed the money, bolted to the IRL despite once being CART Loyalists, were the same bunch of fools pushing the flyin' dildo, etc. Yet, y'all think they should be in charge now?:shakehead:shakehead

[Dr. Corkski]

Better-run CART wouldn't have needed IMS. Then again, the "owners" towards the end were letting a strip club owner and a commatard make all the decisions. Pick your poison.

[trauma1]

I'm actually NOT saying that. I like RB, have enjoyed the product this year. The TG-led IRL? THAT was an unmitigated failure. Time will tell on the current interation of IndyCar. The impact of the split and other factors, might doom it anyway. What would come after that is the issue that bothers me the most: Likely nothing.

As for, "this has NOTHING to do with CART, just a similarity in the fact the word "owners" is being used...", CART's history and structure became the dominant topic on this thread. My point was and remains this: CART was badly needed in '79 and grew the sport (somewhat in spite of itself, but nevermind) tremendously. But in the end, if it refused to reform it's structure, as it did, it was headed for deep, deep trouble. Had the owners allowed a strong CEO to take over and given him/her real power, we're having a different discussion right now.

I basically agree on the H-G family dynamics now, but when I contemplate potential buyers (ISC or SMI), I like those options even less. As it is, the Board gives Randy the budget to work with (not enough, IMHO, but understandable given the TG-era money drain) and basically lets him run the show from there. I'm OK with that. Now, IFFFF RB really does get Walker to liaison on racing issues, I'll be even happier.

Dude, your product has sucked and been a failure and recalled since 1996,:D:D:D:D:laugh::laugh::laugh:

[Racing Truth]

Dude, your product has sucked and been a failure and recalled since 1996,:D:D:D:D:laugh::laugh::laugh:

This points to the central disagreement I have with many here. The IndyCar of 2012 has little in common with or relation to the IRL of '96-97.

[trauma1]

This points to the central disagreement I have with many here. The IndyCar of 2012 has little in common with or relation to the IRL of '96-97.

Yeah, IT EVEN SUCKS EVEN MORE:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::tony::tony::tony:

[Racing Truth]

Yeah, IT EVEN SUCKS EVEN MORE:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::tony::tony::tony:

Not by a million miles.

[trauma1]

but yet no rightous outcry against racing in china, one of the worlds most repressive regrimes, , still the product still SUCKS, thus the empty aluminum at Mindy and else where, spin it anyway you want to it still SUCKS:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:

[Rus'L]

You need to read my link in post #103. Rozelle's vision was for the NFL to hold fast and not merge with the AFL, and definitely NOT to have a Super Bowl (the associated irony being in 1980 when he handed the Vince Lombardi trophy to Al Davis - Davis being the biggest proponent of an AFL/NFL Championship game).

I believe Andrew was talking about the revenue sharing concept, not the merger.

Rozelle supported revenue sharing and had the support of the richest owners, who ironically had the most to lose with this concept. Yet, they saw the long term benefits for all including themselves. That is something CART owners were NEVER able to understand.

[SteveH]

This points to the central disagreement I have with many here. The IndyCar of 2012 has little in common with or relation to the IRL of '96-97.

So what? It is so far from what it was supposed to be fixing that no one supporting the IRL/IndyCar would even think of comparing it to what it replaced - CART 1995. That's the scoreboard, brother. Not "the IRL of '96-97"

[Chief]

Really amazed at how many believe in the wisdom of the car owners here. History and evidence be d@mned!:gomer:

The same owners who followed the money, bolted to the IRL despite once being CART Loyalists, were the same bunch of fools pushing the flyin' dildo, etc. Yet, y'all think they should be in charge now?:shakehead:shakehead

WHO amongst us said that?

Owners want a voice...especially when getting screwed by the Hulman's. WHAT exactly do you propose to fix the mess that is Indycar in today? Beat the owners into submission? Take away their "race promoter" statuses? Come on man, you got a screw loose or something. Put down the kool-aid for a second.

[Methanolandbrats]

This points to the central disagreement I have with many here. The IndyCar of 2012 has little in common with or relation to the IRL of '96-97.

It has much more in common with it than it does with CART.

[Racing Truth]

WHO amongst us said that?

Owners want a voice...especially when getting screwed by the Hulman's. WHAT exactly do you propose to fix the mess that is Indycar in today? Beat the owners into submission? Take away their "race promoter" statuses? Come on man, you got a screw loose or something. Put down the kool-aid for a second.

Let's review: The biggest thing that Randy listened to the owners on? Delaying aero kits.:rolleyes: Now, by happy accident, the no-kit car has performed well, but everyone agrees it looks awful. But, the owners, led by RPenske, said no.

And again, what was their bright idea for a car? A sex toy. So, the series needs to/ought to bend to these people (some of whom want Barnhart in charge)? No thanks.

The goal has to be a NASCAR-like model. Owners may have A voice, but everyone knows who is in charge- not them.

For now, bring in Derrick Walker to consult/liaison on racing issues. Make him the go-between.

[Racing Truth]

It has much more in common with it than it does with CART.

When did the old IRL go to Belle Isle, Long Beach, Barber, Mid-Ohio, h=ll, even Milwaukee?

Factually, this is simply wrong.

[Methanolandbrats]

I don't care where the transporters take those *****oxes, the new *****ox racing has much more in common with the old *****ox racing than it does with CART. That is the point.
Factually, this is simply true.

[Chief]

Let's review: The biggest thing that Randy listened to the owners on? Delaying aero kits.:rolleyes: Now, by happy accident, the no-kit car has performed well, but everyone agrees it looks awful. But, the owners, led by RPenske, said no.

Who would have stepped up to build them? These Indycar idiots barely have one that works...can you imagines them policing 3 separate kits?

[Racing Truth]

Who would have stepped up to build them? These Indycar idiots barely have one that works...can you imagines them policing 3 separate kits?

Honda and Chevy were/are planning to build 'em. More? We'll see.

[Racing Truth]

Should have just told the sponsors they were wrong, it was the foolproof way of getting sponsor $$$ according to the CART business fundamentals handbook.

:laugh:

But I take a nuanced view of this issue. Running the US 500, opposite Indy, in '96 WAS pointless. Running it on either Sat. or another weekend, from Day One might well have worked. Instead, we got Gateway next yr., and a shuffling around of the US 500. Building around that or using the new California event in '97 as your big one gives you purpose, a cool event, and more leverage.

B/c yes, the ultimate resolution was always going to involve IMS. It had to. But CART never gave themselves any leverage against IMS. Never. That's incompetence.

BTW: If you're going to say, "Tony had Indy, so were we screwed from the start," don't we need to reevaluate the wisdom and the events of Houston '91?;) Think about it.

[Methanolandbrats]

THis place is turning into trackforum.

[G.]

BTW: If you're going to say, "Tony had Indy, so were we screwed from the start," don't we need to reevaluate the wisdom and the events of Houston '91?;) Think about it.You're right. They should have whacked him. :\




B/c yes, the ultimate resolution was always going to involve IMS. It had to. But CART never gave themselves any leverage against IMS. Never. That's incompetence.What leverage could anyone come up with against a stunningly stupid and irrational lifeform with billions burning a hole in his pocket?

[G.]

THis place is turning into trackforum.

h


Or is it 5?

[G.]

Really amazed at how many believe in the wisdom of the car owners here. History and evidence be d@mned!

The same owners who followed the money, bolted to the IRL despite once being CART Loyalists, were the same bunch of fools pushing the flyin' dildo, etc. Yet, y'all think they should be in charge now?:shakehead:shakehead

No, Tony even broke the damn owners.



If you think about it, Tony (and his tantrum) DID destroy the owners. (Take Penske out for argument's sake)

Hell, he even made it so that Barry's feeble-minded brother and Mikey the Lesser could form a successful business plan based on tonybux. :laugh:

[Chief]

Hell, he even made it so that Barry's feeble-minded brother and Mikey the Lesser could form a successful business plan based on tonybux. :laugh:

Hondabux bro. Remember the smokin $Millions paid to Kanose via 7/11? Even after they disallowed factory teams...thats when tonybux kicked in.

[dando]

THis place is turning into trackforum.

Then stop replying or reading. :gomer: :saywhat: :shakehead

-Kevin

[Methanolandbrats]

Then stop replying or reading. :gomer: :saywhat: :shakehead

-Kevin

Mebbe I shooda included a :gomer: to make that post clearer. Here's another one just for you :gomer:

[MoCartt]

:laugh:

But I take a nuanced view of this issue.

BTW: If you're going to say, "Tony had Indy, so were we screwed from the start," don't we need to reevaluate the wisdom and the events of Houston '91?;) Think about it.

Oh, we have thought about it!

You seem to gloss over the fact that up to '91 Indy more or less played along and let CART run the series around the big race. Maybe old man Hulman had a pretty good idea that there was a bit of benefit in that.

And as far as Houston, I don't get what you mean. I think everyone that came out of that meeting knew that they couldn't work with Anton and that he was going to be dangerous from there on out because he was hell bent on taking the big race and use it as a club to get control over all those other good events that CART did establish.

The only path CART had was to hold on for as long as it would take to hope Anton would either have someone help him come to his senses or he would come to them himself and find that something like being a part of CART or working more with CART would be mutually beneficial. But that was never going to happen. Maybe that is why Penske and others directed Craig to do the IPO. Get all the money out of it you could while there was any money available. The CART guys knew how important Indy was to them, they saw the future. It did not look good.

By the way, after all that Anton stuff...isn't it a bit clear now that Anton did exactly what CART feared and the results were also what they feared?

And, even if you think the CART owners etc. were dumb in all of this, who took less a beating financially? Who is more or less still in play? And the big truth...who was right and who was wrong?

Or maybe some of this is a bit too nuanced.

Maybe it was Indy that didn't understand nuance.

They still don't.

It's all about Indy.

Uh, maybe it is not.

:gomer:

[Chief]

"One of our cars crashed at Indy in practice and it was a $270,000 crash and I've never had a $270,000 crash in NASCAR. And, it wasn't a total wash. That crash a year ago would have cost $180,000. We're strapped with a lousy contract, somebody has to get in there and make a better deal because a lot of these guys (owners) are going to die on the vine before the end of the year if they don't fix that."

You're kidding, right? Cost containment was a missed goal on the new DeathWagon 12? Stupid Indycar owners, you reap what you sow.

HaY Racing Truth, this is a great idea....FORCE the owners to pay whatever the IMS tells you to pay. Indy dictatorship in action!!! This is grate for the sport! An ICONIC success story...

Note to Chip and Roger: It's delightful seeing the pain on your faces! :laugh:

bernard no-show (http://www.detroitnews.com/article/20120602/SPORTS03/206020322#ixzz1wdSENeXj)

[Mary]

All due respect, Mary, I would disagree. I think the loss of manufacturer money in the form of Toyota and Honda were the decisive issue. Had CART immediately gone into "guerrilla warfare mode" instead of putting up the pretense of being a "premier" racing series (only without the manufacturer money) then I think they could have survived and might actually have ended up in better shape than they are now.

We can argue marketing all day and I realize there's a percentage of fans who won't be satisfied with anything less than increases in gross speed every year, but I think that had they changed the formula dramatically (gotten away from aero and maintained a formula that rewarded innovative design and mechanical grip with affordability to maintain fresh blood trying to enter the series) then they'd be in better shape now than the .1RL is.

In all honesty, I was thinking of the mid-90s immediate post-split CART not the later version that ultimately failed.

Mary

[Mary]

Yep. The IRL (Really, NASCAR) dictatorship model is generally the way to go in racing. Providing the dictator isn't a total failure. In this case...:shakehead

In fact, it points out the ineptitude of CART's leadership. A better-run CART at least ends up w/ more favorable surrender/merger terms, IMHO.

And yes, I forgot PT in '03.:o

Sometimes dictators are total failures. Sometimes perviously successful dictators fail. It happens in the real world; it can happen in racing--even NASCAR.

Mary

[Racing Truth]

No, Tony even broke the damn owners.



If you think about it, Tony (and his tantrum) DID destroy the owners. (Take Penske out for argument's sake)

Hell, he even made it so that Barry's feeble-minded brother and Mikey the Lesser could form a successful business plan based on tonybux. :laugh:

Also in response MoCartt:

So, the majoritarian view here is that owners were... poor victims?:laugh: Just helpless souls fighting a noble, yet hopeless fight? Was Tony the main villain/antagonist? You bet.

But did ANYONE feel this way in '96-'00/01? Sure didn't feel that way at the time. CART had better, well, EVERYTHING, during that time. But outside of Crazy Uncle Gerry, PLN and..., I can't think of anyone else, not one of these geniuses had any "vision" (sorry, but it's the right term here) to build anything minus (temporary or not) Indianapolis.

What could they have done, you ask? I outlined two routes. The US 500 wasn't a bad idea. Holding it on the same day as Indy? Bad idea. Either hold it that Sat. or even more intriguing to me, July 4th weekend (I mean, it is the US 500, no?). And keep it there, make a big purse, promote it, etc.

Or use your brand spankin-new California event in a similar way. Instead, we were told "every race is equally important and presitigious." That worked about as well as "having two starting QBs on the roster." Poorly. And it didn't take a clairvoyant to see that.

But back to Houston 1991. If you're going to say "It all came down to Indy," (thus validating everything said at TF, esp. ca. 2001-02, but nevermind:gomer:) then logically, offering Anton merely a non-voting BOD spot was pretty stupid. H=ll, 'ole U.E. admitted as such yrs. later, so this is hardly radical thought. Smarter men would have a) offered him a voting spot (yes, I know they didn't have to and, arguably, shouldn't have had to. It's also beside the point) and b) pretended to "consider" some of his "wishes." Set up a committee to "explore" the issues, maybe give way on a couple minor issues. In short, make him feel important/valuable while bringing him in to the inside ("Keep your friends close, etc.") and take away any shred of an excuse to break off.

BTW: If you're going to hold to the "TG stole Indy from us, that's why we lost" line, doesn't that call into question how strong we really were? Judging by the rhetoric here, CART was a great series that also included Indy. It ought to be able to survive as a solid series that it had built. Yet, now I'm told this was an impossibility.

To be clear, I DON'T fully believe the "It all came down to Indy" line. Better management, foresight and sticking to a new premier event could have given CART much more leverage w/ TG/IMS, thus leading to a more favorable settlement. As it is, the H-G sisters pulled the plug on TG just 17 months after CC died. A stronger CART-CC likely accelerates that, IMHO. It at least puts more pressure on the other side.

Next, coming full circle...

[Mary]

This points to the central disagreement I have with many here. The IndyCar of 2012 has little in common with or relation to the IRL of '96-97.

I don't care whether it sucks or not; this has nothing to do with the reasons I won't watch or support it.

Mary

[Racing Truth]

The whole point of this discussion is how much say/power should team owners have today? Should most/all decisions today be based on their thoughts/desires? Given their brilliant past and present decisions (Some would prefer Brainfart to run the whole thing!:eek:), I'm a NO on that.

I've been flippant about it, but I think they need A VOICE and on some issues, listen to them. But ultimate authority? No.


You're kidding, right? Cost containment was a missed goal on the new DeathWagon 12? Stupid Indycar owners, you reap what you sow.

HaY Racing Truth, this is a great idea....FORCE the owners to pay whatever the IMS tells you to pay. Indy dictatorship in action!!! This is grate for the sport! An ICONIC success story...

Note to Chip and Roger: It's delightful seeing the pain on your faces! :laugh:

bernard no-show (http://www.detroitnews.com/article/20120602/SPORTS03/206020322#ixzz1wdSENeXj)

Never said all was right in IndyCar. Cost issue does suck and I'd be upset too (moreso at Dallara), but firing Randy over it? Comically stupid. I think, overall, the thing is in better shape than it has been in yrs. Certainly on track. But, hey, let's fire the CEO!:saywhat:

[nrc]

Also in response MoCartt:

So, the majoritarian view here is that owners were... poor victims?:laugh: Just helpless souls fighting a noble, yet hopeless fight? Was Tony the main villain/antagonist? You bet.

Logic fail. I haven't seen anyone argue that, never mind a majority.



To be clear, I DON'T fully believe the "It all came down to Indy" line. Better management, foresight and sticking to a new premier event could have given CART much more leverage w/ TG/IMS, thus leading to a more favorable settlement. As it is, the H-G sisters pulled the plug on TG just 17 months after CC died. A stronger CART-CC likely accelerates that, IMHO. It at least puts more pressure on the other side.

Next, coming full circle...

Again, I don't think anyone here is arguing that CART was an ideal organization in any respect. But they had managed to create one of the best racing series of all time. Yes, they ultimately failed to survive without Indy, but it wasn't solely the loss of Indy that destroyed them, it was a confluence of events that few organizations could have weathered.

That was five or ten years ago depending on how you count it. Meanwhile, the IRL has failed to become successful with Indy in spite of nearly 20 years of trying. They have failed to build anything even good, never mind great. They've failed at everything, destroyed the sport, and irreparably damaged the race they claimed to be protecting.

If you want to follow the current mess they call "IndyCar" and talk about it, that's fine. It's not like there's much else worthwhile to talk about in the racing world these days. But if you want to re-hash the history of the split or try to lay the blame for the current mess at the feet of people who haven't had any control of the IRL and haven't had any control anywhere in the sport of over a decade, then you can do it elsewhere.

This thread is about current events. If it strays back into re-imagining history then it will be closed.

[TravelGal]

Gosh, I'm just catching up. It's like Seventh Gear all over again. :D Even if we're arguing, at least we're discussing the sport. As it was. Anyway. Sort of.

[NismoZ]

Excellent move.

[Rex Karz]

This thread is about current events. If it strays back into re-imagining history then it will be closed.

So you're saying that if I relate the story that TG was kidnapped by aliens and told he'd be subjected to numerous anal probes unless he formed an Indy-centered open wheel leage that this thread will be closed?

Darn!!!!

[Indy]

How hard is this? CART was wonderful. The IRL sucked.

Sometimes things work out much better if the right person dies. I am not saying that someone should have put a hit on someone, but I have no doubt that if the IRL never existed, US open wheel would be much, much better today.

Yeah, I know, I am an awful person. Blah, blah, blah.

[SurfaceUnits]

How hard is this? CART was wonderful. The IRL sucked.

Sometimes things work out much better if the right person dies. I am not saying that someone should have put a hit on someone, but I have no doubt that if the IRL never existed, US open wheel would be much, much better today.

Yeah, I know, I am an awful person. Blah, blah, blah.

yeah but then you woulda missed out on the worlds gratest car wax:tony:

[Rogue Leader]

You're kidding, right? Cost containment was a missed goal on the new DeathWagon 12? Stupid Indycar owners, you reap what you sow.

HaY Racing Truth, this is a great idea....FORCE the owners to pay whatever the IMS tells you to pay. Indy dictatorship in action!!! This is grate for the sport! An ICONIC success story...

Note to Chip and Roger: It's delightful seeing the pain on your faces! :laugh:

bernard no-show (http://www.detroitnews.com/article/20120602/SPORTS03/206020322#ixzz1wdSENeXj)


If these owners get him out and it becomes like CART 2, this series is done for. May not be this year, may not be next, but it will collapse.

[Methanolandbrats]

If these owners get him out and it becomes like CART 2, this series is done for. May not be this year, may not be next, but it will collapse.

Why? Maybe they will do something right. How about scraping that POS car and running Formula Renault 3.5 cars, **** Indy, go back to Road America and I would again be an instant fan. Global compatability might attact some new overseas teams. Gots a better idea :gomer:

[Racing Truth]

If these owners get him out and it becomes like CART 2, this series is done for. May not be this year, may not be next, but it will collapse.

Such is my point and was the whole point of my, uh, tangent.;) If I thought the owners were good (heck, decent) strategic thinkers, I'd be all for it. History tells me otherwise.

Not that RB's perfect, by any means. Qingdao will be his biggest blunder. (http://www.indystar.com/article/20120603/SPORTS01/206030373/Izod-IndyCar-Series-5-burning-issues-watch?odyssey=tab|topnews|text|Sports) But his pros outweigh the cons.

BTW:


Curt Cavin‏@curtcavin .@RBINDYCAR finally confirmed that China is not only not 100 percent, a decision has to be made soon. "We have a backup plan." #indycar
Curt Cavin‏@curtcavin
.@RBINDYCAR reminded all that he works for the IMS board, not the car owners. And its members are supportive. #indycar
Curt Cavin‏@curtcavin
.@RBINDYCAR said he spent seven days deciding how to make his point about the one car owner. Doesn't regret it. #indycar
Curt Cavin‏@curtcavin
.@RBINDYCAR stopped short of saying he has talked to that car owner; he's talked to several car owners. #indycar
Dave Furst‏@DaveFurst
#IndyCar Randy Bernard on tweet: "I was backed into a corner and came out fighting. That's how I operate."

Oh my.:eek::thumbup:

[Indy]

How about scraping that POS car and running Formula Renault 3.5 cars, **** Indy, go back to Road America and I would again be an instant fan.

:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:

[racermike]

Pitchforks are out, as Detroit GP about to be cancelled halfway as the track is falling apart.

[Racing Truth]

Pitchforks are out, as Detroit GP about to be cancelled halfway as the track is falling apart.

Guess who pushed this abortion? It's Penske's event. He pushed it (along w/ GM). Meanwhile, 70 miles north...:shakehead:shakehead

Gonna go out on a limb and say that no OW event ever returns to Belle Isle.

[DagoFast]

Guess who pushed this abortion? It's Penske's event. He pushed it (along w/ GM). Meanwhile, 70 miles north...:shakehead:shakehead

Gonna go out on a limb and say that no OW event ever returns to Belle Isle.

Penske's been an earl guy for a decade. :laugh: Own it. :thumb up:

[stroker]

Guess who pushed this abortion? It's Penske's event. He pushed it (along w/ GM). Meanwhile, 70 miles north...:shakehead:shakehead

Gonna go out on a limb and say that no OW event ever returns to Belle Isle.

Perhaps the reason he pushed it is that the IMS Brain Trust couldn't come up with enough events...

[trauma1]

When did the old IRL go to Belle Isle, Long Beach, Barber, Mid-Ohio, h=ll, even Milwaukee?

Factually, this is simply wrong.

How's that Rat island race in Detroit doing:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

[trauma1]

Honda and Chevy were/are planning to build 'em. More? We'll see.

How's that Lotus engine and areo package coming along:D:D:D:D

[TKGAngel]

The falling apart course aside, there were two things that were adding to the chaos of the situation:

1. Race control did not confirm with the teams until the very last minute that the restarted race would be a 15 lap section.

2. Multiple teams tried to pull a fast one during the mandatory tire change before the restart. The teams had to restart the race with a fresh set of whatever tires (reds/blacks) were on the car at the time of the track issues. A lot of teams claimed "miscommunication" and put on the opposite. Briscoe or Power was having a complete meltdown over the change and one of the Penske peeps had to tell him that they could just leave the car in the damn pits if he was going to act like that.

[trauma1]

Gosh, I'm just catching up. It's like Seventh Gear all over again. :D Even if we're arguing, at least we're discussing the sport. As it was. Anyway. Sort of.

to many:gomer:gomer::tony::tony:, not exactly that they are Mensa IQ gifted:D

[trauma1]

The falling apart course aside, there were two things that were adding to the chaos of the situation:

1. Race control did not confirm with the teams until the very last minute that the restarted race would be a 15 lap section.

2. Multiple teams tried to pull a fast one during the mandatory tire change before the restart. The teams had to restart the race with a fresh set of whatever tires (reds/blacks) were on the car at the time of the track issues. A lot of teams claimed "miscommunication" and put on the opposite. Briscoe or Power was having a complete meltdown over the change and one of the Penske peeps had to tell him that they could just leave the car in the damn pits if he was going to act like that.

i wonder if they want "give me 4 good laps'" BaRNFART BACK:D:rofl::rofl:
Just can't make this **** up

[trauma1]

Guess who pushed this abortion? It's Penske's event. He pushed it (along w/ GM). Meanwhile, 70 miles north...:shakehead:shakehead

Gonna go out on a limb and say that no OW event ever returns to Belle Isle.

Going out on a limb, saying they will not return to a lot of tracks next year, and hopefully NONE of them:D:D

[trauma1]

Such is my point and was the whole point of my, uh, tangent.;) If I thought the owners were good (heck, decent) strategic thinkers, I'd be all for it. History tells me otherwise.

Not that RB's perfect, by any means. Qingdao will be his biggest blunder. (http://www.indystar.com/article/20120603/SPORTS01/206030373/Izod-IndyCar-Series-5-burning-issues-watch?odyssey=tab|topnews|text|Sports) But his pros outweigh the cons.

BTW:



Oh my.:eek::thumbup:

hey clown rodeo cowboy, what up with this "keep it in the house" BS you told the driver's and owner's and to stay of twitter:gomer::gomer:

[DagoFast]

hey clown rodeo cowboy, what up with this "keep it in the house" BS you told the driver's and owner's and to stay of twitter:gomer::gomer:

Keeping everything "in house" is the obvious solution. They should only race on IMS owned and maintained tracks! It's the only way to guarantee the qwality the leeg is known for. :gomer:
















Oh. That's only one track? Whoops. Never mind. :rofl:

[DagoFast]

Wait, wait! I know; put the engines back in the front and only race on dirt! :nomorepeskypavement:
:D:rofl::laugh:

[SurfaceUnits]

to many:gomer:gomer::tony::tony:, not exactly that they are Mensa IQ gifted:D

I don't think you need to be reminded taht TOney GOrge wonned

[Kiwifan]

It has made the news downunder! http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/motorsport/7035779/IndyCar-try-to-gain-momentum-downplay-drama

Too bad I didn't even know there was a race on today. :o To think I used to know Months in advance, get up at 4.30am to watch it Live.... What happened?? :yuck: :gomer: :tony:

[trauma1]

I don't think you need to be reminded taht TOney GOrge wonned

mY bAd:D:D:D

[Rogue Leader]

Why? Maybe they will do something right. How about scraping that POS car and running Formula Renault 3.5 cars, **** Indy, go back to Road America and I would again be an instant fan. Global compatability might attact some new overseas teams. Gots a better idea :gomer:

They aren't gonna do something right they are going to do everything wrong, again. Same clowns different circus.

Your idea will never happen. It will collapse, a couple marque events will become NASCAR, GA, or ALMS events, and it will be like it never even existed within a few years after that.

[TravelGal]

Too bad I didn't even know there was a race on today. :o To think I used to know Months in advance, get up at 4.30am to watch it Live.... What happened?? :yuck: :gomer: :tony:

I hear ya. TravelGuy said, "I recorded the race." I thought, "What race?" Nachurlly we didn't see the end of it though. Have to wait for pressdog's recap of the last 10 laps.