Owners want Randy Bernard OUT

[Chief]

This oughta be good. :laugh: :thumbup:


Asked about rumors that team owners have banded together to make a case to IndyCar's Board of Directors to have Bernard removed, the CEO smiled and stayed on message....

The ''very upset team owner'' is powerful Roger Penske, who stopped speaking to Bernard sometime after Chevrolet's first appeal was denied. But Bernard and Penske met on Friday at the speedway for their first conversation in about a month.

Owner fight brewing (http://sports.yahoo.com/news/bernard-wants-focus-indianapolis-500-162849948--irl.html)

[Don Quixote]

Who is going to write the white paper this time?

[NismoZ]

:rofl:Well, thank you. I was just looking back to see who wrote here recently about just such a possibility, giving business to Lola (belly up?), Cosworth etc...it ws ME! The fantasy lives!

[Racing Truth]

This oughta be good. :laugh::thumbup:



Owner fight brewing (http://sports.yahoo.com/news/bernard-wants-focus-indianapolis-500-162849948--irl.html)

Too bad. Penske can act like a 5-yr.-old all he wants (BTW: Bernard had nothing to do w/ TurboGate, but nevermind), but unless he and others convince the IMS board, RB's going nowhere.

Given the people he's hired on the racing side, (http://pressdog.typepad.com/dogblog/2012/05/beaux-barfield-announces-the-end-to-babysitting.html) that's a good thing.

[Racing Truth]

:rofl:Well, thank you. I was just looking back to see who wrote here recently about just such a possibility, giving business to Lola (belly up?), Cosworth etc...it ws ME! The fantasy lives!

Actually, no. Anyone REALLY (Beyond the hate) think these owners want to start CART II again? Don't think so.

[Racing Truth]

Reading the whole piece, here are the "grievances":

Dallara costs- OK, likely right. Too bad their "idea" was the flyin' dildo.:gomer:

Fines from Indy- "Rules are for little people.":shakehead

Communication with officials- Seems valid, but very, very minor.

I'll take RB running things over these clowns EVERYTIME.

[Chief]

The owners:

Pay for the cars, get sponsors, pretty much solely advertise the sport, have influence with auto manu's, own races/promote them.

I would suggest IMS find a solution, much of the organization and power within it originates from this base of owners. Constant power playing by these idiots at 16th and Jonestown (ala making up rules as they go along as evidenced this 10 days of meh). They don't want power, they want power to be heard...and not with the speedway deaf ear either.

[Mary]

DOOMED to repeat history.

Mary

[SurfaceUnits]

Actually, no. Anyone REALLY (Beyond the hate) think these owners want to start CART II again? Don't think so.

hell know, their happy riding the hulman-george gravey train, they voted twice to let the family fund their racing businesses :tony:
they got $39 million this year alone

[DagoFast]

Karma is such an amazing thing. :rofl:

[Racing Truth]

The owners:

Pay for the cars, get sponsors, pretty much solely advertise the sport, have influence with auto manu's, own races/promote them.

I would suggest IMS find a solution, much of the organization and power within it originates from this base of owners. Constant power playing by these idiots at 16th and Jonestown (ala making up rules as they go along as evidenced this 10 days of meh). They don't want power, they want power to be heard...and not with the speedway deaf ear either.

We disagree a) on their motives and b) the wisdom of giving them a veto. Should they have a voice? Yes. The final voice? No, no, no. Look, the owners have divergent interests. Giving them too much say gives you a cluster.

Miller calls it a "witch hunt," BTW. (http://auto-racing.speedtv.com/article/indycar-robin-millers-indy-500-quiz/) I agree.

[SurfaceUnits]

well you know, ole Randy wasn't exactly faced with the arduous task of replacing Lee Iacocca or Jack Welch

[Racing Truth]

well you know, ole Randy wasn't exactly faced with the arduous task of replacing Lee Iacocca or Jack Welch

No, he had to fix the biggest mess in sports business history. I think he's doing fine, myself.

[TravelGal]

Who is going to write the white paper this time?

Why waste the paper? Or the pixels.


DOOMED to repeat history.

Mary

Exactly. I can hardly believe I'm reading this. Yet, I wonder why it took so long for that festering mob to erupt.

[Chief]

We disagree a) on their motives and b) the wisdom of giving them a veto. Should they have a voice? Yes. The final voice? No, no, no. Look, the owners have divergent interests. Giving them too much say gives you a cluster.

Miller calls it a "witch hunt," BTW. (http://auto-racing.speedtv.com/article/indycar-robin-millers-indy-500-quiz/) I agree.

Penske is a Chevy guy, with strong ties to Detroit. The IRL has very strong ties with Honda, the company that essentially floated them for the past 10 years as a key partner..

Therefore, IF favoritism is suspected by the ruling 'leegUe', someone better have a recourse for appeal. Honda is getting it's ass handed to them by Chevy...i know you're giddy about 1 honda in the top 10 (8th), but that turbogate ruling should never have happened. IT SHOWED WEAKNESS on the series' part. Randy took a hands off approach...theres been so much massaging of the rulebook this month it ain't funny. And then they fine everybody....

As much as I can't stand Penske, he has a point and the IRL has a history of favoritism. There's a billion examples of this from Dallara getting the contract awarded to them to this turbogate crapola.

I will add, Robin is in bed with Randy and anything he sez can't be taken as the truth especially at a time when impartiality is essential.

[G.]

Exactly. I can hardly believe I'm reading this. Yet, I wonder why it took so long for that festering mob to erupt.

The Hulman Handouts are getting harder to come by.

[SurfaceUnits]

No, he had to fix the biggest mess in sports business history. I think he's doing fine, myself.

Tony George was doing fine until them cart strret race loosers came crawling back, twice

[SurfaceUnits]

The Hulman Handouts are getting harder to come by.

$39,000,000 this year alone

[trauma1]

The owners:

Pay for the cars, get sponsors, pretty much solely advertise the sport, have influence with auto manu's, own races/promote them.

I would suggest IMS find a solution, much of the organization and power within it originates from this base of owners. Constant power playing by these idiots at 16th and Jonestown (ala making up rules as they go along as evidenced this 10 days of meh). They don't want power, they want power to be heard...and not with the speedway deaf ear either.

the owners are getting nothing from the league or IMS, no profit sharing from the TV deals or Izod deal, the purse $$ is a joke, but there is no Dan Gurney these days, no one with the balls to start CART II:flame::flame::flame::flame::flame:

[trauma1]

Actually, no. Anyone REALLY (Beyond the hate) think these owners want to start CART II again? Don't think so.

oh it can happen Penske has more power in the sport than the bull rider, and the owners are getting jack crap from the league no sharing of $$ from TV deals ans the Izod deal, btw randy is a joke also:tony::tony::tony::tony::tony:

[EDwardo]

So, why doesn't Tony break with the series and form a new league centered on Indy?

Oh, wait........

[Mary]

So, why doesn't Tony break with the series and form a new league centered on Indy?

Oh, wait........

No vision.

Mary

[stroker]

...he has a point and the IRL has a history of favoritism. There's a billion examples of this from Dallara getting the contract awarded to them to this turbogate crapola.

.1RL = USAC = IMS

[RTKar]

Who is going to write the white paper this time?

These days it'll be a tweet, a text or an email...probably while driving.

[Mary]

These days it'll be a tweet, a text or an email...probably while driving.

Nope, they already drove it over a cliff.

Mary

[SurfaceUnits]

Who is going to write the white paper this time?

I amagione the issues aren't that dissimilar to need a new one. the one constant hasn't changed.

[Racing Truth]

I imagine RP's not very happy right now. Oh well, Honda beat 'em fairly. Today, they had a (slightly*) better engine.

As for your White Paper wet dreams, I've seen that movie before. The ending sucks. Owners can run something that's going well with no problems. Give them ANY adversity, and their self-interests paralyze them.

Sorry, but the France family and F1 (sort of) have it right. Give teams A VOICE, not THE VOICE.

*Chevy still finished 3-4-5.

[DagoFast]

I imagine RP's not very happy right now. Oh well, Honda beat 'em fairly. Today, they had a (slightly*) better engine.

As for your White Paper wet dreams, I've seen that movie before. The ending sucks. Owners can run something that's going well with no problems. Give them ANY adversity, and their self-interests paralyze them.

Sorry, but the France family and F1 (sort of) have it right. Give teams A VOICE, not THE VOICE.

*Chevy still finished 3-4-5.

*sigh* The race is over. Is it safe to assume you'll soon disappear from the internets like mindycar will from national media until next May*?

*or until they snuff another hiro.

[dando]

Who is going to write the white paper this time?

1.) No owner cares enough except ol' Liver Spots and he's 7/8th lemming.
2.) No mfg and sponsor jack to back it.
3.) A tree falls in the forest....and hopefully lands on :tony:.

:gomer:

-Kevin

[Indy]

The only thing that will change any of this is an asteroid falling on the Hulman-George family reunion. And even if that happened, it is probably too late. Racing is a dying sport, the car culture is dead, and nobody gives a ****. :\

[Racing Truth]

Well, THIS (TF link) (http://www.trackforum.com/forums/showthread.php?165186-Per-Robin-Miller-Chevy-owners-trying-to-push-out-Bernard) must make many here happy.

The irony is the top guy likely to replace RB: :tony:. And you'd have the worst off all worlds: TG in power, but beholden to greedy, self-absorbed owners. Hey, let's just combine TWO failed models and see what happens!:shakehead

And yes, if that's the result, I'll be done.

[NismoZ]

*

[gerhard911]

If that's the result, you got just what you deserved :gomer:

[Racing Truth]

If that's the result, you got just what you deserved :gomer:

What did I do to deserve it?

[Racing Truth]

Audio here. (http://www.1070thefan.com/jmv/podcast.aspx) Scroll to 5/29 w/ Robin Miller. He savages the owners.

[mueber]

It's really hard to find anyone to admire in auto racing anymore.

[Methanolandbrats]

It's really hard to find anyone to admire in auto racing anymore.

Marcus Ambrose, Sato, Team Joest, Pescarolo, Petrov, Mercedes F1 Team and others, they are out there.

[Mary]

I imagine RP's not very happy right now. Oh well, Honda beat 'em fairly. Today, they had a (slightly*) better engine.

As for your White Paper wet dreams, I've seen that movie before. The ending sucks. Owners can run something that's going well with no problems. Give them ANY adversity, and their self-interests paralyze them.

Sorry, but the France family and F1 (sort of) have it right. Give teams A VOICE, not THE VOICE.

*Chevy still finished 3-4-5.

Do you think things are going well now? Seriously?

Everybody waxes raphsodic on how well the dictatorships of the Frances' and of Bernieocracy in F1, but those only work, IMO, because even they had enough sense to know they had to make sure everybody else got rich, too. Not only did the 500 have to be the "be all and end all" but they kept all the money. Tony paying for everything is not the same as them making money.

I am also sick of the revisionist history as regards CART. Before Tony blew it up, they were doing fine. Was it NASCAR? H**l no and for a lot of reasons (not the ones the vision people gave) it was never going to be, but it was a successful, viable, series that was respected world-wide.

BTW, I'm not looking for CART II. It is way too late for that. But I don't have to watch this.

Mary

[cameraman]

Do you think things are going well now? Seriously

Considering where they are starting from and name that is still on the ownership papers I would say things are going better than expected. When your starting point is a disaster of mythic proportion just surviving could be considered "going well".

[stroker]

Considering where they are starting from and name that is still on the ownership papers I would say things are going better than expected. When your starting point is a disaster of mythic proportion just surviving could be considered "going well".

As long as the HG clan keep telling themselves that things will be just fine.

[mueber]

I'd love to see the whole thing blow up big time. It would give me a reason to pay attention. It won't though. It wouldn't even be fighting over scraps. The likes of Roger Penske will just leave.

[Indy]

A quick review of the TF thread tells me that the instigator is Barnes, and he is such a total dick, hated by everyone, that I doubt anything he says carries any weight at all. So I would guess this is a non-story, with Miller stirring some **** to keep himself relevant while running a little interference for his buddy RB.

Though I must admit the thought of the return of TG does make my hate bone tingle. :laugh:

[Chief]

Shouldn't they fine 'em? :rofl:

I think it's funny....the staunch IRLers wanting to take back the IRL series. Who won again?

[SteveH]

Didn't the IRL kick out a Lights team last year?

Now that Indy's starting field has been satisfied (meaning 33 showed up) a dissident owner is expendable. Off with his head!

[G.]

Do you think things are going well now? Seriously?

Everybody waxes raphsodic on how well the dictatorships of the Frances' and of Bernieocracy in F1, but those only work, IMO, because even they had enough sense to know they had to make sure everybody else got rich, too. Not only did the 500 have to be the "be all and end all" but they kept all the money. Tony paying for everything is not the same as them making money.

I am also sick of the revisionist history as regards CART. Before Tony blew it up, they were doing fine. Was it NASCAR? H**l no and for a lot of reasons (not the ones the vision people gave) it was never going to be, but it was a successful, viable, series that was respected world-wide.

BTW, I'm not looking for CART II. It is way too late for that. But I don't have to watch this.

Mary
Beautiful post.

[Racing Truth]

Good news: Rebel owners have their man- BRIAN EFFING BARNHART! (http://auto-racing.speedtv.com/article/miller-the-most-repulsive-revolt/P1):shakehead:flame::rofl:

You cannot make this nonsense up. And you all wonder why CART, eventually, failed? This crap is why.

[Chief]

Good news: Rebel owners have their man- BRIAN EFFING BARNHART! (http://auto-racing.speedtv.com/article/miller-the-most-repulsive-revolt/P1):shakehead:flame::rofl:

You cannot make this nonsense up. And you all wonder why CART, eventually, failed? This crap is why.

Yep, TONY F'N GEORGE....that's exactly why CART went belly up, AOW in the toilet, and yeah he lives to goof it up again.

Rebel owners my butt....those are IRL dyed-in-the-wool types. The sheiss sandwich tastes good, huh? :thumbup:

[Racing Truth]

Yep, TONY F'N GEORGE....that's exactly why CART went belly up, AOW in the toilet, and yeah he lives to goof it up again.

Rebel owners my butt....those are IRL dyed-in-the-wool types. The sheiss sandwich tastes good, huh? :thumbup:

Mikey and KK are "IRL" types? FAIL.

As to your first point, more on that in a bit. (Short answer: not really)

[Elmo T]

Not available?

http://s12.postimage.org/iv36o15ql/Pinocchio1.jpg

[mapguy]

Mikey and KK are "IRL" types? FAIL.

As to your first point, more on that in a bit. (Short answer: not really)

FAIL yourself. Do you think that Andretti the lessor spent a dollar of his own money for Team Green? If you do then you are a fool. Honda bought that team for one reason and one reason only. To end CART. That didn't work and then they had to resort to buying Rahole and Fernandez after Spring Training. Still didn't work.

Go back to your little world that revolves around 16th and Georgetown. The Indy 500 was a great race. Now it is just another race. Acres of empty seats. Ratings in the toilet. Cars that make an Pontiac Aztek look good. You must be proud.

Let me ask you this. What was wrong with Indy Car racing in the early 90's?

We had:

- Multiple (4) chassis manufacturers
- Multiple (4) engine manufacturers
- Two tire manufacturers
- a real bump day at Indy
- over 100k on pole day at Indy. How many were there this year?
- full stands at the races
- No Milka Duno's, Dr Jack Miller's or Ed Carpenter's....

Enjoy the steaming turd that your hero left you. OWR in North America is dead thank to a one T. George. I hope his ego is satisfied.

[Racing Truth]

To Chief, mappy and most here:

Tony George wrecked this sport. Splitting it anytime was always going to wreck it and leave it on a deathbed. When he split it in bad faith, it made it much worse.

But Tony George didn't kill CART and any suggestion otherwise is pure revisionist nostalgia. CART as a RACING outfit was the best out there. Unfortunately, many can't seperate the great racing product we saw from the business model. It was a model that did work initially (anything was an improvement over USAC), but ended up coasting on the good times.

But the record shows that once adversity hit (the split), they couldn't do a thing. The nature of the model called for consensus in a pool of self-interest. In adversity, when decisive, proactive action is needed, they couldn't do it. To what end? IPO, popoff-gate, a series of impotent, incompetent CEO's ("Jargon Joe":gomer:), going totally sideways on the inter. ovals aero package (They made Milwaukee, Chicago Motor, etc. unwatchable), etc.

Tony George was responsible for NONE of that idiocy. None of it. The owners ultimately killed CART. Period.

Oh, BTW, by implication, you're saying that CART was beaten by a moron, not themselves. Really?

[datachicane]

T
Oh, BTW, by implication, you're saying that CART was beaten by a moron, not themselves. Really?

A business was beaten by a hobbyist with unlimited pockets.
You'll notice that one has constraints that the other does not.

[Racing Truth]

A business was beaten by a hobbyist with unlimited pockets.
You'll notice that one has constraints that the other does not.

Tons of money wasted by an idiot shouldn't beat a competently-run org. To remove most blame from CART in their own demise is stupid.

[datachicane]

Tons of money wasted by an idiot shouldn't beat a competently-run org.

You ever been in business?

[mapguy]

What an apologist. I'll have what you are drinking....

What was wrong in the early 90's? Nothing....

The owners were at fault? Well, until your Lord Sagamore pulled his tantrum the series was doing fine.

We are not coming back.

Enjoy the **** that the George family serves you. You must be proud.

[cameraman]

He is correct in that Tony George had plenty of help with destroying racing. CART managed to make idiotic decision after idiotic decision and Tony George was willing to burn through half a billion dollars at the same time. That's quite the potent double-whammy.

[DagoFast]

CART did fine as a business until the split. After a couple of years, the owners tired of the fight and figured out a way they could have their cake and eat it too. The IPO became their way to cash out of CART. Fat Floyd and Liverspots (good name for a band?) each broke ranks and found the May pickings easy and the welcome lucrative if they displayed the proper fealty to the boy king and kissed his ring. After that they just had to convince the YenMasters to follow them out the door.

There are no hero's in the story. Just greed and ego's.

And only the fool place fans continue to think this pig will ever fly.

[Rocketdoc]

On Wednesday, a report on Speed.com said that IndyCar founder Tony George and a handful of Chevrolet team owners are behind the charge to have Bernard fired. Also listed were team owners John Barnes, Kevin Kalkhoven, Michael Andretti and his father, Mario.

[Racing Truth]

He is correct in that Tony George had plenty of help with destroying racing. CART managed to make idiotic decision after idiotic decision and Tony George was willing to burn through half a billion dollars at the same time. That's quite the potent double-whammy.

Thank you. TG killed (or near it) the SPORT. CART killed itself. That's all.

[mapguy]

Thank you. TG killed (or near it) the SPORT. CART killed itself. That's all.

CART was doing quite well until your hero pulled his tantrum.

Thanks for your support, Place Fan...

[Racing Truth]

CART was doing quite well until your hero pulled his tantrum.

Thanks for your support, Place Fan...

:laugh:

Andrew Craig, Rahole, Heitzler, Pook, Three Amigos.

[TKGAngel]

From Mikey's own Twitter (http://twitter.com/michaelandretti/status/207938481933131776): there is no lynch mob and shame, shame on Miller for saying there was one.

And RHR of all people brought up a good point: Mikey ran 15% of the cars in the 500. And puts on 13% of the races on the 2012 schedule. Of ANYONE in this whole fiasco, he's got a lot to lose from "bad" leadership.

[Racing Truth]

From Mikey's own Twitter (http://twitter.com/michaelandretti/status/207938481933131776): there is no lynch mob and shame, shame on Miller for saying there was one.

And RHR of all people brought up a good point: Mikey ran 15% of the cars in the 500. And puts on 13% of the races on the 2012 schedule. Of ANYONE in this whole fiasco, he's got a lot to lose from "bad" leadership.

Mikey's full of it. Notice, he doesn't deny anything. "There is no lynch mob! If a few men with rifles take things into their own hands, well, these things happen. But no lynch mob, no sir.";)

Oh, and the sanction fee for Milwaukee, according to Jenna Fryer: $0.

BTW: Miller basically called Mikey a liar on Indy radio today.

[Racing Truth]

Honestly, watching Mikey plead ignorance/backtrack like h=ll tells me one thing: Bernard won this round by TKO.

It's also quite satisfying.;)

[TKGAngel]

BTW: Miller basically called Mikey a liar on Indy radio today.

Cross him off the Andretti family Christmas card list, then. :)

And I had no idea that Mikey's sanctioning fee was $0. Silly me expecting a promoter to have money on the line.

[Easy]

CART was succeeding in the 90s in spite of itself. Joke CEOs, self interested team owners (redundant, I know) in control each pulling toward their peripheral interests, top drivers almost all with an eye on moving to or returning Formula 1 with various dedication (Sullivan, Rahal, Al jr, Michael Andretti, PT, Villeneuve, Vasser, Servia, da Matta, de Ferran, Zanardi, Montoya, et al. either tested, entertained offers or actually left for F1), and NASCAR surging upward even before the split. It wasn't all caviar and champagne in 1994.



Actually it probably was all caviar and champagne behind closed doors but it will be for those guys whether there is AOWR or not.

[Racing Truth]

^^What Easy said. You'll actually be more po'ed at me tomorrow after my next argument.;)

Until then, someone shoot me if I get half as pointlessly bitter as some here.

[gerhard911]

:laugh:

Andrew Craig, Rahole, Heitzler, Pook, Three Amigos.

And, in typical indianner :gomer: fashion, you can't even count on one hand :laugh:

[cameraman]

My problem is CART & the Indy-centric team owner's response to TG in 1996-2003. Epic ineptitude doesn't begin to describe CART's response and duplicitous is being far too kind to the team owners. Foyt, Barnes, Penske, Andretti, Rahal etc all share in the blame for the current disaster that is US racing. That any of these ****ers has the temerity to complain about one single thing that is happening today just beggars the imagination. Without their help TG would never have been able maintain this farce for 16 years.

[Racing Truth]

And, in typical indianner :gomer: fashion, you can't even count on one hand :laugh:

Uhhhhhh...

Not sure how to respond as this makes no sense.

[datachicane]

Until then, someone shoot me if I get half as pointlessly bitter as some here.

Easy, there, friend. The hate is all we have left.

[Mary]

To Chief, mappy and most here:

But Tony George didn't kill CART and any suggestion otherwise is pure revisionist nostalgia. It was a model that did work initially (anything was an improvement over USAC), but ended up coasting on the good times.

But the record shows that once adversity hit (the split), they couldn't do a thing. The nature of the model called for consensus in a pool of self-interest. In adversity, when decisive, proactive action is needed, they couldn't do it. To what end? IPO, popoff-gate, a series of impotent, incompetent CEO's ("Jargon Joe":gomer:), going totally sideways on the inter. ovals aero package (They made Milwaukee, Chicago Motor, etc. unwatchable), etc.

Tony George was responsible for NONE of that idiocy. None of it. The owners ultimately killed CART. Period.



Yeah, but the split DID happen and it was totally Tony George's doing. In hindsight, there was no way CART was going to survive long term without Indy. I choke on those words, but IMO they proved to be true. I won't argue that CART was well run after the split, but I don't think anything could have saved it and they would not have been in danger if the split never happened.

As for the "model that didn't work" theory, how come every other major sport in the USA manages to survive and in some cases thrive with a bunch of self-interested, greedy owners? I don't think anybody in CART every had anything on the MLB or NFL owners in the self-interested greed department.

CART definitely melted down. You seem to be arguing that the fuel rods were spent. I disagree, but even if they were, Tony removed the water that kept them cool. Now it is all contaminated.

Mary

[Racing Truth]

As for the "model that didn't work" theory, how come every other major sport in the USA manages to survive and in some cases thrive with a bunch of self-interested, greedy owners? I don't think anybody in CART every had anything on the MLB or NFL owners in the self-interested greed department.

Mary

Strong, empowered commissioners, esp. NFL. CART never had that.

[Mary]

Strong, empowered commissioners, esp. NFL. CART never had that.

Not always, although I will grant you that when real threats have appeared to the sports in question the owners step back and allow themselves to be governed. Still, they have gotten rid of commissioners they really don't like and they don't let the commissioners forget who signs their check.

I don't think the AFL was created in the 1960s to put the NFL out of business. The original AFL teams were owned by people and located in cities that the NFL traditionally ignored--they wanted a piece of the pie. They weren't looking to either take the whole thing or end pie as we know it. Can't say that about Tony.

Mary

[Mary]

^^What Easy said. You'll actually be more po'ed at me tomorrow after my next argument.;)

Until then, someone shoot me if I get half as pointlessly bitter as some here.

Why? Who would we argue with then? Lighten up!

I miss American racing and I hate the reasons it was destroyed. The only things I can do are to refuse to support it (I don't watch) and b*tch on the message boards. BFD, it is not that serious.

Mary

[mapguy]

:laugh:

Andrew Craig, Rahole, Heitzler, Pook, Three Amigos.

George pulled the trigger when it was not needed. This happened before the above mentioned came into play.

Thanks for playing...

[Methanolandbrats]

Tony George tanked the whole ****ing thing, it's that simple. Anyone who does not understand that is a moron. Instead of just cashing checks and braiding his asshair while he drooled, he fancied himself a motorsports czar, so he kicked CART out of the Indy 500 with the 25/8 ********. Then the CART teams who had all the sponsor money sided with George because they believed Indy was bigger than the sport. They like the inheritor tard were wrong. That has been proven over the last 15 years. Mental experiment. If Tony's dad had rolled over and shot him on the carpet, where would CART be today.

[mapguy]

Tony George tanked the whole ****ing thing, it's that simple. Anyone who does not understand that is a moron. Instead of just cashing checks and braiding his asshair while he drooled, he fancied himself a motorsports czar, so he kicked CART out of the Indy 500 with the 25/8 ********. Then the CART teams who had all the sponsor money sided with George because they believed Indy was bigger than the sport. They like the inheritor tard were wrong. That has been proven over the last 15 years. Mental experiment. If Tony's dad had rolled over and shot him on the carpet, where would CART be today.

:thumbup:

http://assets0.ordienetworks.com/images/GifGuide/clapping/audience.gif

[dando]

As for the "model that didn't work" theory, how come every other major sport in the USA manages to survive and in some cases thrive with a bunch of self-interested, greedy owners? I don't think anybody in CART every had anything on the MLB or NFL owners in the self-interested greed department.


Simple. They have monopolies that even the Feds acknowledge, accept and approve. Other leagues have tried and failed or merged with the existing leagues (AFL/USFL/XFL/NFL, ABA/NBA, WHL/NHL, FL <== Federal Legue/AL/NL/MLB). In fact, MLB has an antitrust exemption that has been upheld by the Supreme Court since the 1920s. It has come under scrutiny over the years, and parts of it peeled back (Curt Flood/Reserve Clause), but it has never been revoked. Yes, they also have uber commissioners that have managed not to kill the golden goose, but some, like Buttman of the NHL, have tried very hard to screw up the sport/league. :irked: Auto racing has never been considered the mythical 5th major league until NASCAR's recent growth over the past ~20 years or so, which obviously coincided with the split. Now using the NFL in comparison, if someone else owned the venue for the Super Bowl and decided to only allow the AFC or NFC teams to compete in it, then we would have a true point of comparison, but the way the league is constructed and operates, that simply won't happen. Also, the fact that stick and ball sports are played in all levels of school and well founded and run minor leagues helps ensure the mind share for those sports and the foundation for future generations of growth and fans.

-Kevin

[gerhard911]

Uhhhhhh...

Not sure how to respond as this makes no sense.

Because you are a :gomer:

In posts 51 & 59 you specifically talk aboot CART killing itself. Then in post 61 (which I quoted) you list four CART CEOs and then reference "Three Amigos". Three ? You just listed four :confused:

If you meant to include The Three Amigos who ran the post CART, post bankruptcy, Champcar; then I'm not sure, A) how that is relevant to CART "killing itself", or B) why you didn't write "and The Three Amigos".

So, in your "revisionist history" of CART, Champcar = CART?

[DagoFast]

:laugh:

Andrew Craig, Rahole, Heitzler, Pook, Three Amigos.

Craig was hired to do the IPO. He did it and was gone. Guess why Rahole and Jargon Joe were then given the job? Go on, tax that tiny reptilian brain. For once.

Hint: Pook inherited command of the Titanic after it had already hit the iceberg.

The Amigos? Different company, built on the ashes of CART. Too little too late.

When do you have to stop shilling for your bronze badge? It's already May 30th, hopefully we've heard the last of your Baghdad Bob bulls**** for the rest of this year.

[stroker]

In hindsight, there was no way CART was going to survive long term without Indy.

All due respect, Mary, I would disagree. I think the loss of manufacturer money in the form of Toyota and Honda were the decisive issue. Had CART immediately gone into "guerrilla warfare mode" instead of putting up the pretense of being a "premier" racing series (only without the manufacturer money) then I think they could have survived and might actually have ended up in better shape than they are now.

We can argue marketing all day and I realize there's a percentage of fans who won't be satisfied with anything less than increases in gross speed every year, but I think that had they changed the formula dramatically (gotten away from aero and maintained a formula that rewarded innovative design and mechanical grip with affordability to maintain fresh blood trying to enter the series) then they'd be in better shape now than the .1RL is.

[Methanolandbrats]

^^^ CART would have been fine without Indy. Every race was sold out before the split. 80k people at Road America. Every blade of grass had a car parked on it and it took hours to get out of there. The diversity of CART sold tickets, not the Indy centric mythology.

[Chief]

To Chief, mappy and most here:

Tony George wrecked this sport. Splitting it anytime was always going to wreck it and leave it on a deathbed.....

Tony George was responsible for NONE of that idiocy. None of it. The owners ultimately killed CART. Period.

Oh, BTW, by implication, you're saying that CART was beaten by a moron, not themselves. Really?

Look, if the IRL was never hatched, the sport would have naturally followed it's fate. But, some idiot with the last name George severed the sport by launching the IRL. This was an un-natural turn of events and it placed the entire sport in peril.

That single move changed everything....everything. So WHY are you saying what is happening today is why CART failed? WGAF? CART is DEAD. THE IRL IS DEAD.

All that is left is this dung heap you cling to for love. There's no White Paper, there's no rival league planned, NOTHING. Nothing but Mr. Tony George aiding in a take-over of the sport...AGAIN.

So, pull your head out of your butt long enough to understand, Tony George KILLED the sport. Tony George is lining up to do it again. And, knowing your alliances...your not going to let him get away with it again. Are you? Roles may be reversed this time, but the impact will be the same or worse. :tony:

[Elmo T]

The diversity of CART sold tickets, not the Indy centric mythology.

This is what I miss most - diversity of cars, drivers, and tracks. Pull up any of the early 1990's season. IMS had its draw, allure, and tradition - but it didn't make the season.

[G.]

Racing Truth, you're not even trying anymore. You used to know this **** (I thought, anyway). Now you're spouting off defensive sound bites, as if they have any Truth behind them.

You have been surrounded by mediocrity for so long, you have become that.
:shakehead




Either that, or I'm wrong, and you've never known ****.

[Indy]

When I see a woman who is a victim of abuse, I always blame her, too. Because, you know, its her responsibility to protect herself. How can you blame the guy when she seems to be asking for it?

[Indy]

Furthermore, I DO believe that CART died because it didn't have Indy. I put in some time trying to convince sponsors to support CART, and I can tell you, all they cared about was Indy. The people who were making those decisions simply didn't know any better.

The other thing to understand is that CART was basically a union. The split was a lockout. Tony George broke the union, simple as that. That the union was corrupt was irrelevant.

[Dr. Corkski]

Oh I want in on the lynch mob! :laugh:

The CART business model "worked" as long as the economy was growing and there was plenty of $$$ to go around. It was easy to mask fundamental management flaws with $$$. The pie was usually big enough for the owners to stick around until the economy slowed in the early 2000s, then the pie got smaller and just about everyone left so they can keep their piece of the pie. Most of these guys didn't get rich by putting other people's interests above their own. Throw in a coked up moron on a power trip throwing around money, both sides ended up wasting all their resources trying to kill each other instead of capitalizing on the peak of the economy in the late 90s. But even without IMS there was still nothing preventing any of the owners from leaving for a bigger piece of the pie elsewhere, because there was no one to make sure they had more to lose by doing so.

CART didn't need Indy as much as a marquee event. Before anyone says Long Beach, :rofl:. Pretty much every attempt at establishing one turned out to be bigger disaster than Driven.

If only there was the Hawaii Super Prix to save the day.

[nrc]

Craig was hired to do the IPO. He did it and was gone. Guess why Rahole and Jargon Joe were then given the job? Go on, tax that tiny reptilian brain. For once.

I don't think that's true. Craig took over in 1994 based on his sports marketing background. I don't think anyone was considering an IPO at that point in time. The IPO came in later as a way for owners to extract value from their franchises and put money in their pockets, in part because the loss of Indy was starting to impact revenue and in part as a way to pack their parachutes.

I don't believe that there was any business model that could have saved CART as we knew it. There simply wasn't going to be enough revenue to keep the party going at the level the teams had become addicted to. The only way to have kept it going would have been the kind of measures that didn't seem necessary until years later.

Until then HondaBucks and YodaYen kept the party rolling even if the affects were rotting the series out from within. They gambled that they could keep both players playing and they lost. I suspect that most "strong commissioners" would have made that same bet based on the alternatives.

Keep it straight folks, Tony George destroyed the sport. Honda and Toyota destroyed CART.

[Dr. Corkski]

I don't think that's true. Craig took over in 1994 based on his sports marketing background. I don't think anyone was considering an IPO at that point in time. The IPO came in later as a way for owners to extract value from their franchises and put money in their pockets, in part because the loss of Indy was starting to impact revenue and in part as a way to pack their parachutes.

I don't believe that there was any business model that could have saved CART as we knew it. There simply wasn't going to be enough revenue to keep the party going at the level the teams had become addicted to. The only way to have kept it going would have been the kind of measures that didn't seem necessary until years later.

Until then HondaBucks and YodaYen kept the party rolling even if the affects were rotting the series out from within. They gambled that they could keep both players playing and they lost. I suspect that most "strong commissioners" would have made that same bet based on the alternatives.

Keep it straight folks, Tony George destroyed the sport. Honda and Toyota destroyed CART.But who was it that got the cashflow completely dependent on Honda and Toyota? The owners. It was the easiest source of $$$ when the pie was starting to get smaller.

[nrc]

But who was it that got the cashflow completely dependent on Honda and Toyota? The owners. It was the easiest source of $$$ when the pie was starting to get smaller.

Yes, the owners. But I don't think there would have been any business model where the choice would have been different. The only alternative would have been massive cost controls at a time when most people (including most fans) really didn't see a need for them.

And then what happens? Honda and Toyota throw their yen at the IRL and the results are the same.

The split would have been a tough test for any organization. Add Honda and Toyota to the mix and it became the Kobayashi Maru.

[stroker]

Add Honda and Toyota to the mix and it became the Kobayashi Maru.

I don't believe in a "no-win" scenario.

<kirk smilie>

[pfc_m_drake]

Strong, empowered commissioners, esp. NFL. CART never had that.
In 1998 the Buffalo Bills were basically robbed of a win over the New England Patriots by 2 terrible calls by officials. The Bills' owner, Ralph Wilson, came out after the game and publicly criticized the officiating (very harshly, I might add).

Wilson was promptly faxed a letter by Paul Tagliabue informing him that he would be fined $50,000 for his remarks. Wilson responded the next day by saying:


The commissioner lecturing to me as if I were a novice, instead of one who has been involved in football infinitely longer than he has, contends that criticizing a call has 'destructive and corrosive effects on the game.' What is more destructive and corrosive -- errant calls in front of millions of viewers, or my statements of opinion? People all over the country registered shock at the way the officials, however honorable their purpose, took the game away from us. Even the league has admitted to us that the calls near the conclusion of the game were incorrect. I do know I don't need pompous lectures from the commissioner and I feel that the $50,000 is not only unwarranted, but punitive in nature. The next time he may ask me to sit in the corner.

Somehow, the matter was immediately dropped and Wilson never paid the $50,000 fine.

I don't care what your views on IndyCar vs CART or Randy Bernard or anything else are. But do not, for one second, kid yourself into believing the NFL commissioner is 'empowered' or 'strong'. The NFL owners have the real power, as Mr. Wilson so eloquently demonstrated back in 1998. The commissioner is a figurehead - nothing more. The owners give the commissioner whatever 'power' he has...and the owners will take away that 'power' if they see fit.

[Napoleon]

FWIW, I agree with what MB, Indy and nrc has said.

[Racing Truth]

Because you are a :gomer:

In posts 51 & 59 you specifically talk aboot CART killing itself. Then in post 61 (which I quoted) you list four CART CEOs and then reference "Three Amigos". Three ? You just listed four :confused:

If you meant to include The Three Amigos who ran the post CART, post bankruptcy, Champcar; then I'm not sure, A) how that is relevant to CART "killing itself", or B) why you didn't write "and The Three Amigos".

So, in your "revisionist history" of CART, Champcar = CART?

Yes, the Three Amigos= KK, Gesus and Poledance. Fine, not CART, but built on the existing structure, with a similar (incoherent) management style. Maybe not quite a "continuation," but pretty close. Yes, I find it relevant.

[dando]

I don't care what your views on IndyCar vs CART or Randy Bernard or anything else are. But do not, for one second, kid yourself into believing the NFL commissioner is 'empowered' or 'strong'. The NFL owners have the real power, as Mr. Wilson so eloquently demonstrated back in 1998. The commissioner is a figurehead - nothing more. The owners give the commissioner whatever 'power' he has...and the owners will take away that 'power' if they see fit.

Ask the Saints about that. Different answer. Rozelle managed the NFL through the AFL/NFL merger and got it to work despite some VERY strong and different owners. Think Al Davis, Lamar Hunt, Paul Brown, Tex Schramm, and yes, Ralph Wilson. He played hardball with the players in the 80s that resulted in relative peace with the players, while the MLB, NHL and NBA have canceled parts and/or entire seasons. Rozelle made the right moves with the networks to get the TV deals in place that allowed the NFL to explode into the 800 lb. gorilla it is today. Wilson may have spouted off, but @ the end of the day it was Rozelle and his henchmen working the deals and keeping the owners in line through thick and thin. Yes, the commish may have a bully pulpit to a certain extent, but the fines, penalties and suspensions issued from the pulpit still stand. There are countless examples of this over the past several years from the Patriots and Cameragate, the Saints and Bountygate to the Skins and Cowboys being penalized for cap violations during the 'uncapped '10 season (which were upheld by an independent arbiter, BTW), and players being fined and/or suspended for on field actions. The NFL commish is by know means a 'figure head'. Now if your point was about Tagliabue, I might buy that argument, but not Rozelle and Goodell. No way. Should have picked on Selig if you want to use an example of a figure head.

-Kevin

[Racing Truth]

I don't think that's true. Craig took over in 1994 based on his sports marketing background. I don't think anyone was considering an IPO at that point in time. The IPO came in later as a way for owners to extract value from their franchises and put money in their pockets, in part because the loss of Indy was starting to impact revenue and in part as a way to pack their parachutes.

I don't believe that there was any business model that could have saved CART as we knew it. There simply wasn't going to be enough revenue to keep the party going at the level the teams had become addicted to. The only way to have kept it going would have been the kind of measures that didn't seem necessary until years later.

Until then HondaBucks and YodaYen kept the party rolling even if the affects were rotting the series out from within. They gambled that they could keep both players playing and they lost. I suspect that most "strong commissioners" would have made that same bet based on the alternatives.

Keep it straight folks, Tony George destroyed the sport. Honda and Toyota destroyed CART.

Great deal of truth in this. I just wonder if a coherent, stronger leadership model could have better dealt with the YenBucks. I don't know, maybe not, but I'm positive that a model that depended on owners w/ 3-4 mftrs. making coherent decisions for the good of the sport had no chance of working.

[dando]

I don't think that's true. Craig took over in 1994 based on his sports marketing background. I don't think anyone was considering an IPO at that point in time. The IPO came in later as a way for owners to extract value from their franchises and put money in their pockets, in part because the loss of Indy was starting to impact revenue and in part as a way to pack their parachutes.

I don't believe that there was any business model that could have saved CART as we knew it. There simply wasn't going to be enough revenue to keep the party going at the level the teams had become addicted to. The only way to have kept it going would have been the kind of measures that didn't seem necessary until years later.

Until then HondaBucks and YodaYen kept the party rolling even if the affects were rotting the series out from within. They gambled that they could keep both players playing and they lost. I suspect that most "strong commissioners" would have made that same bet based on the alternatives.

Keep it straight folks, Tony George destroyed the sport. Honda and Toyota destroyed CART.

Thanks for the voice of reason, boss. I was going to post something to this affect last night, but hit the back button instead. My view is simply that the sport was going to mature once the mfg and sponsor $$$ dried up. The writing was on the wall, and neither FTG, Craig, etc. or the owners on either side were prepared for it. Tobacco was going away. Once the Yen (Honda, Toyo and related suppliers) dried up, all involved would have faced the same competitive and cost control issues. The casual fan may have changed the channel anyway once the 'new track record' didn't happen every May. There was simply no way the speeds could continue to rise like they were in the name of driver and fan safety. Indy may not have been everything to everybody, but it was the rising tide that lifted all boats. It's placement in the season was perfect...it allowed for a lead in to the greatest spectacle in racing, and for the resulting wave over the summer. I can't count the number of times I tried to explain IRL/CART/Indy to even racing savvy fans whose eyes glazed over after just a few minutes. All involved have a place in line for the blame @ what AOW became. :tony: just made the plateau and demise happen sooner rather than later.

I do know one thing for certain...times being what they are, there is no way the crowds that were present in Cleveland would still be there today no matter what they had on the track. The Tribe has been in first place the first two months of this season and have sold out 1 game. They may have ~12K in The Jake on a given night. This is a team that sold out 355 straight games in the 90s. They had a competitive team last season and now this season, and they were one game away from the WS as recently as 2007 when they were up 3-1 over the Red Sox. Yet they can't manage to average 20K in the park. Anyone who thinks that 'every blade of grass' would be covered @ RA these days is simply fooling themselves.

-Kevin

[Rogue Leader]

Thanks for the voice of reason, boss. I was going to post something to this affect last night, but hit the back button instead. My view is simply that the sport was going to mature once the mfg and sponsor $$$ dried up. The writing was on the wall, and neither FTG, Craig, etc. or the owners on either side were prepared for it. Tobacco was going away. Once the Yen (Honda, Toyo and related suppliers) dried up, all involved would have faced the same competitive and cost control issues. The casual fan may have changed the channel anyway once the 'new track record' didn't happen every May. There was simply no way the speeds could continue to rise like they were in the name of driver and fan safety. Indy may not have been everything to everybody, but it was the rising tide that lifted all boats. It's placement in the season was perfect...it allowed for a lead in to the greatest spectacle in racing, and for the resulting wave over the summer. I can't count the number of times I tried to explain IRL/CART/Indy to even racing savvy fans whose eyes glazed over after just a few minutes. All involved have a place in line for the blame @ what AOW became. :tony: just made the plateau and demise happen sooner rather than later.

I do know one thing for certain...times being what they are, there is no way the crowds that were present in Cleveland would still be there today no matter what they had on the track. The Tribe has been in first place the first two months of this season and have sold out 1 game. They may have ~12K in The Jake on a given night. This is a team that sold out 355 straight games in the 90s. They had a competitive team last season and now this season, and they were one game away from the WS as recently as 2007 when they were up 3-1 over the Red Sox. Yet they can't manage to average 20K in the park. Anyone who thinks that 'every blade of grass' would be covered @ RA these days is simply fooling themselves.

-Kevin

Well said. I've refrained from this discussion so far, but this is my thoughts exactly.

Recall that while in the 90's yes CART was at an all time high, towards the end of the 90's and into the early 2000's even F1 which is "the most important series in the world" struggled to put 22 cars on the grid, then once tobacco was gone struggled to put 18 cars on. GTP and later WSC/IMSA basically crapped out, etc. These were all series that put boatloads of folks in the stands.

But I agree Honda/Toyota and others in other series are the reason for this. Look at GT1, it was hot, even had races in the US, then Mercedes and Porsche, threw astronomical amounts of money at winning it, and they destroyed it. Toyota destroyed GTP with the Gurney Eagles. Ferrari made F1 completely boring, DTM became all but extinct thanks to Mercedes. So many Examples of how racing just plain tanked in that time period. And people left and didn't watch anymore, they found something else, and have as yet not gotten a reason to come back.