View Full Version : Roasted submarine
cameraman
06-04-12, 01:55 PM
I missed this a week ago but now that the smoke has settled the Navy has some thinking to do. There was a fire on the USS Miami while in port and it burned out essentially the forward third of the boat.
It cost $900 million to build, it would cost 2.6 billion to replace.
Ballpark guesses are a billion to repair it.
The Navy has cut its numbers such that it needs every boat and this one is in the schedule for the next nine years. It was 3 months into a 20 month overhaul so there won't be any gaps in the schedule for 17 months.
The fire was very hot and burned for 10-12 hours. What happened to the strength of the hull in that area? Not a trivial concern for a submarine. It will take a couple of weeks to determine if repair is even possible.
There is the ongoing political fur ball over maintaining submarine production capability. The current budget proposal cuts the 2014 production from 2 to 1 new Virginia class boats. Maybe that second boat gets added back in.
That's one expensive fire no matter which way you look at it.
They should scrap it and part it out. The salvaged parts can be used to keep the remaining boats in its class afloat for a little longer.
Buy a new sub, and keel haul the shipyard workers for destorying the Miami.
I wonder if there are any recently decommissioned subs that could be brought back for less than a billion dollars?
Methanolandbrats
06-04-12, 02:33 PM
What does the Navy need those things for? Are they just used to hide nuke missles and move them around "just in case"?
cameraman
06-04-12, 02:53 PM
What does the Navy need those things for? Are they just used to hide nuke missles and move them around "just in case"?
These are attack boats not ssbn haulers. They fire off all manner of cruise missiles as the first salvo of your conventional attack. And they spy on people.
cameraman
06-04-12, 02:56 PM
I wonder if there are any recently decommissioned subs that could be brought back for less than a billion dollars?
No. This is one of the third and final version of the class. The boats being decommissioned are the original version. There doesn't seem to be a whole lot of overlap between v1 and v3.
Does the insurance cover it? ;) :saywhat:
All I know is that with the growing threat to the west of us, they had better get it replaced. :irked:
-Kevin
Insomniac
06-04-12, 03:09 PM
Does the insurance cover it? ;) :saywhat:
All I know is that with the growing threat to the west of us, they had better get it replaced. :irked:
-Kevin
That's exactly what I was thinking. Don't they have insurance? Not necessarily the government, but whoever was contracted for the repairs and allowed this to happen under their watch.
Methanolandbrats
06-04-12, 03:17 PM
Insurance = taxpayers in this case. :mad:
cameraman
06-04-12, 03:20 PM
The Government is self-insured via your checking account. It is just a bigger version of Utah where the U of U is "self-insured" through the state but if anything happens to the campus they don't have so much as a dime to fix/replace anything.:rolleyes:
Methanolandbrats
06-04-12, 03:26 PM
These are attack boats not ssbn haulers. They fire off all manner of cruise missiles as the first salvo of your conventional attack. And they spy on people.
Why can't planes and drones deliver the same punch quicker and cheaper?
stroker
06-04-12, 05:14 PM
Why can't planes and drones deliver the same punch quicker and cheaper?
Subs don't show up on Radar.
Subs don't show up on Radar.
Well that and drones can't carry and fire a cruise missile. They may have one or two hellfire missiles to use for an attack. Planes also need airspace clearance and bases/runways for take off and landing.
-Kevin
Methanolandbrats
06-04-12, 08:02 PM
Ya, I know the difference, but destroyers and carriers can launch cruise missles and they can respond quicker than a sub at much less cost. We're entering a new era both fiscally and in terms of warfare and I view the sub as a bit of a cold war relic that is just too expensive. A ****ing billion dollars to build one :eek: how many kids can be sent to college for that amount of money? How much cutting edge research can be funded? Staying ahead of other countries in education is the real war we should be concentrating on.
Staying ahead of other countries in education is the real war we should be concentrating on.
Preach it brother.
Think of an attack sub as a billion dollar insurace policy against loss from enemy action. Currently, the best way to kill an enemy sub is with another sub. As long as the boat is in the water, the enemy cannot operate freely in the ocean. That deterent protects things like aircraft carriers and the city of Los Angeles from attack.
That said, the Navy would love a fleet of cheaper, drone submarines capable of constant deployment. Without a crew those things could stay underwater forever.
Methanolandbrats
06-04-12, 09:19 PM
Think of an attack sub as a billion dollar insurace policy against loss from enemy action. Currently, the best way to kill an enemy sub is with another sub. As long as the boat is in the water, the enemy cannot operate freely in the ocean. That deterent protects things like aircraft carriers and the city of Los Angeles from attack.
That said, the Navy would love a fleet of cheaper, drone submarines capable of constant deployment. Without a crew those things could stay underwater forever.
So if subs cannot be detected from above, how do subs detect other subs?
So if subs cannot be detected from above, how do subs detect other subs?
You need to watch The Hunt for Red October or Dab Boat again. :) Sonar. And yes, they can be detected from above, but sonar has limited range. Aircraft can drop sonar buoys, but they need a small area to drop them into, and usually after another sub has detected a possible contact. Surface ships can also use towed-array sonar, and there are sonar networks out there as well like the SOSUS network. There's also the issue of the thermal layer, which affects how well sonar works on contacts above and below the layer.
-Kevin
cameraman
06-04-12, 10:47 PM
but destroyers and carriers can launch cruise missles In the tight confines of the Persian Gulf the Iranians could swarm a surface ship and actually sink it. They have no hope of finding a sub much less sinking it. Same goes for the Chinese. They have a ton of supersonic cruise missiles and a ton of planes. They might suffer massive losses but they could eventually get to our surface ships. They too haven't a hope in hell of finding US subs.
In the tight confines of the Persian Gulf the Iranians could swarm a surface ship and actually sink it. They have no hope of finding a sub much less sinking it. Same goes for the Chinese. They have a ton of supersonic cruise missiles and a ton of planes. They might suffer massive losses but they could eventually get to our surface ships. They too haven't a hope in hell of finding US subs.
Yeah, but then there's the stealth destroyer....
http://www.wtop.com//220/2889410/US-Navy-hopes-stealth-ship-answers-a-rising-China
SINGAPORE (AP) - A super-stealthy warship that could underpin the U.S. Navy's China strategy will be able to sneak up on coastlines virtually undetected and pound targets with electromagnetic "railguns" right out of a sci-fi movie.
But at more than $3 billion a pop, critics say the new DDG-1000 destroyer sucks away funds that could be better used to bolster a thinly stretched conventional fleet. One outspoken admiral in China has scoffed that all it would take to sink the high-tech American ship is an armada of explosive-laden fishing boats.
With the first of the new ships set to be delivered in 2014, the stealth destroyer is being heavily promoted by the Pentagon as the most advanced destroyer in history _ a silver bullet of stealth. It has been called a perfect fit for what Washington now considers the most strategically important region in the world _ Asia and the Pacific.
Just $3B ea. :saywhat:
-Kevin
Why can't planes and drones deliver the same punch quicker and cheaper?
That said, the Navy would love a fleet of cheaper, drone submarines capable of constant deployment. Without a crew those things could stay underwater forever.Even with a crew, that's one of the real powers of the sub fleet: They can hang around a potential hot spot for a few months undetected, waiting for the callup.
cameraman
06-05-12, 01:49 AM
Yeah, but then there's the stealth destroyer....
Just $3B ea. :saywhat:
-Kevin
$3.1 billion is the individual construction cost per ship. R&D costs were another $4.2 billion per ship which is why the total order is for three of them...
And no one can guarantee that the things will actually function as planned.
Just look at the San Antonio class LPDs. It has taken years to rebuild/repair their propulsion systems just to get them to the point where they could sail without tearing up their engines.
Useing parts off old decommision boats was done when the San Fransisco hit the sea mount back in '05. They cut the nose off the Hawaii and welded it on.
The Miami is a bigger concern:
1) the heat was intense and the steel may be compromised
2) She's 21 years old and an 688I class boat.
688's hot rack for a number of the crew, the Virginia class does not.
This helps in crew comfort/moral/recruiting.
They are much noisier that the Virginias
Don't under extimate the capability of the US submarines. They are excellent spy platforms,SEAL induction and can respond with 16 cruise missles in a matter of minutes and leave undetected. I fully expect Congress to keep to 2 Virginias a year.
The 1st missles fired in Iraq and Afgahanistan were off subs.
Vacuum Cleaner Causes $400M Fire (http://www.militarytimes.com/news/2012/06/navy-miami-sub-fire-vacuum-cleaner-060612w/)
Navy officials said the fire did not endanger the sub’s nuclear reactor. But the damage was so extensive that officials are considering whether to decommission the Miami, making it the first submarine and the first nuclear ship lost through a U.S. shipyard accident. The sub is currently scheduled to be decommissioned in 2020.
Vacuum Cleaner Causes $400M Fire (http://www.militarytimes.com/news/2012/06/navy-miami-sub-fire-vacuum-cleaner-060612w/)
Was the vacuum cleaner built in China? :gomer: :saywhat: :shakehead
-Kevin
They are now saying the fire was arson due to anxiety. :saywhat:
Story (http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_SUBMARINE_FIRE?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2012-07-23-14-26-28)
That dude is dead meat.
http://img819.imageshack.us/img819/6958/beastieboyssabotagebypa.png
Insomniac
07-23-12, 04:45 PM
They are now saying the fire was arson due to anxiety. :saywhat:
Story (http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_SUBMARINE_FIRE?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2012-07-23-14-26-28)
If convicted of either charge, Fury could face life imprisonment and a fine of up to $250,000 and be ordered to pay restitution, officials said. His federal public defender, David Beneman, declined to comment. A court appearance was set for Monday afternoon.
So taxpayers hope he wins Powerball?
Methanolandbrats
07-23-12, 05:06 PM
I wonder how his anxiety and depression is now :saywhat:
So taxpayers hope he wins Powerball?
Nah, we're screwed as usual.
If the guy was really on doctor prescribed meds for anxiety and depression I think he'll probably get off with a hospital stay. :mad:
Methanolandbrats
07-23-12, 05:22 PM
Where does the navy find it's help, on Craig's List? Why the hell would you put someone on anxiety medication in a submarine? Hell, I get claustrophobic just thinking about being in one. Small chance that had anything to do with it, but what criteria do they use to hire civilian help?
Nah, we're screwed as usual.
If the guy was really on doctor prescribed meds for anxiety and depression I think he'll probably get off with a hospital stay. :mad:
He's in Fed court, right?
Fed's don't play dat. Greybar Hotel, for whatever they ask for.
He's in Fed court, right?
Fed's don't play dat. Greybar Hotel, for whatever they ask for.
I hope you're right. Let him set his jail cell on fire. :thumbup:
Insomniac
07-23-12, 11:55 PM
Where does the navy find it's help, on Craig's List? Why the hell would you put someone on anxiety medication in a submarine? Hell, I get claustrophobic just thinking about being in one. Small chance that had anything to do with it, but what criteria do they use to hire civilian help?
Presumably they hired a contractor who hired that guy. Perhaps the contractor should be held responsible/liable? Do they have insurance?
cameraman
07-24-12, 12:04 AM
$400 million worth of insurance? I seriously doubt it.
$400 million worth of insurance? I seriously doubt it.
$400m is not that much, liability insurance wise.
Well, then just make the guy work it off!
The USS Miami lives. The Navy has decided to spend $450 million to fix her. The first step was issuing a $94 million contract to plan the repairs and order the material.
http://www.strategypage.com/htmw/htsub/articles/20120917.aspx
The USS Miami lives. The Navy has decided to spend $450 million to fix her. The first step was issuing a $94 million contract to plan the repairs and order the material.
http://www.strategypage.com/htmw/htsub/articles/20120917.aspx
Nice. Wife's (not so soon to be ex-wife :irked:) boss lives in Main and raises goats. :saywhat:
-Kevin
Looks like the Miami is going to have some company in drydock.
The U.S. Fleet Forces Command said in a news release that the submarine USS Montpelier and the Aegis cruiser USS San Jacinto collided at about 3:30 p.m. during routine operations. No one was injured, and the extent of any damage to the vessels was not clear Saturday evening.
http://www.sfgate.com/news/article/Navy-says-submarine-Aegis-cruiser-collide-3946570.php#photo-3590321
No word on who hit who. Probably a cover story anyway. :p
Andrew Longman
10-15-12, 02:45 AM
Probably a cover story anyway. :pMaybe. But a career or two was surely sunk.
Looks like the Miami is going to have some company in drydock.
No word on who hit who. Probably a cover story anyway. :p
The story I read had the sub surfacing right in front of the cruiser and the cruiser unable to stop in time.
he can work off the restitution while in prison, right? (http://news.yahoo.com/worker-set-fire-sub-sentenced-17-years-144939238.html)
PORTLAND, Maine (AP) — A shipyard worker who set fire to rags aboard a nuclear submarine because he wanted to go home was sentenced to a little more than 17 years in federal prison Friday for the blaze that transformed the vessel into a fiery furnace, injured seven people and caused about $450 million in damage.
Casey James Fury also was ordered to pay $400 million in restitution by a judge who weighed his lack of criminal record and the severity of the fire before imposing a 205-month prison sentence.
The 25-year-old Fury, formerly of Portsmouth, N.H., pleaded guilty to setting the May 23 fire while the USS Miami was undergoing a 20-month dry dock overhaul at Portsmouth Naval Shipyard in Kittery.
Insomniac
03-15-13, 06:38 PM
he can work off the restitution while in prison, right? (http://news.yahoo.com/worker-set-fire-sub-sentenced-17-years-144939238.html)
I think Congress needs to get to work on raising minimum wage for prisoners.
Tifosi24
03-15-13, 06:46 PM
He needs to come up with a social media IPO for prisoners and that should take care of what he owes.
:laugh:
Is the debt transferable to his descendents?
Here is your busted Navy warship repair update roundup:
USS Miami - Sub is still toasted and sitting in Portsmouth. Good news is the Navy will spend $150 mil this year for repairs. Bad new is the total bill is around $450 mil. http://www.seacoastonline.com/articles/20130413-NEWS-304130327
USS Montpelier - Sub is being fixed at Newport News. Commander is now commanding a desk.
http://www.navy.mil/submit/display.asp?story_id=71334
USS San Jacinto - Repairs to sonar dome delayed depolyment until summer. Commander not fired. http://hamptonroads.com/2013/01/norfolkbased-san-jacinto-wont-deploy-next-month
Quatro Sink-o - Four new Spanish submarines too heavy to float. Ay caramba! Dios mio.
http://qz.com/86988/spain-just-spent-680-million-on-a-submarine-that-cant-swim/#86988/spain-just-spent-680-million-on-a-submarine-that-cant-swim/
Quatro Sink-o - Four new Spanish submarines too heavy to float. Ay caramba! Dios mio.
http://qz.com/86988/spain-just-spent-680-million-on-a-submarine-that-cant-swim/#86988/spain-just-spent-680-million-on-a-submarine-that-cant-swim/
Too funny. :rofl:
Man has been making submersibles for a long time. How could this happen? :saywhat:
Spain doesn't make nukes do they? :\
devilmaster
05-22-13, 08:20 PM
Too funny. :rofl:
Man has been making submersibles for a long time. How could this happen? :saywhat:
Spain doesn't make nukes do they? :\
from wiki:
The AIP (air independent propulsion) implemented on the S-80 is completely different from the French MESMA (Module Energie Sous-Marin Autonome) project. The S-80's AIP system is based on a bioethanol-processor (provided by Hynergreen from Abengoa) consisting of a reaction chamber and several intermediate Coprox reactors, that will transform the BioEtOH into high purity hydrogen. The output feeds a series of fuel cells from UTC Power company (which also supplied fuel cells for the Space Shuttle).
The Reformator is fed with bioethanol as fuel, and oxygen (stored as a liquid in a high pressure cryogenic tank), generating hydrogen and carbon dioxide as subproducts. The produced hydrogen and more oxygen is fed to the fuel cells.
The bioethanol-processor also produces a stream of highly concentrated carbon dioxide and other trace gases that are not burned completely during combustion. This gas flow is mixed with sea water in one or more ejector venturi scrubber and then through a new system called SECO2 (or CO2 Removal System), developed by Bionet, and whose purpose is to dissolve the "bubbles" of CO2 in water to undetectable levels.[6]
The oxygen and fuel flow rates are directly determined by the demand for power. The AIP power in the S-80 submarine is at least 300kW.[6] A permanent-magnet electric motor moves a fixed propeller of a special design, that doesn't create cavitations at high speed.
cameraman
05-22-13, 09:45 PM
Pretty cool. Too bad it doesn't float...
The Edsel of the seas? :saywhat: :D
-Kevin
Navy drops plans to repair fire-damaged submarine USS Miami, citing budget restraints
http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/navy-drops-plans-to-repair-fire-damaged-submarine-uss-miami-citing-budget-restraints/2013/08/06/978c6518-ff02-11e2-8294-0ee5075b840d_story.html
Bummer. At least they'll be able to salvage parts for other boats.
I wonder if they'll offer the sail to Miami for a park.
http://s23.postimg.org/pi89thxt7/DSC_0155.jpg
I doubt they will part out the Miami anytime soon. I suspect a little anti-sequestration PR going on here.
The wikipedia page on the USS Miami has a summary of the reasons for scrapping the boat, including incompatibilities with the older USS Memphis that was going to donate parts.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Miami_(SSN-755)
Another point to consider is drydock space. Since the fire in May 2012, the Miami has been sitting in one of Portsmouth's three drydocks. It hasn't been an issue up to this point because the original maintenance period for the Miami's scheduled repairs was 20 months. We just entered the 17th month of that 20 month period.
http://ufgscriteria.tpub.com/4_213_12/4_213_120039.htm
Some disruptions have already occurred. Back in October 2012, the USS Providence was routed to the General Dynamics Electric Boat facilities in Connecticut because the Miami could not be moved. I don't know what that change cost to mobilize and execute, but scrapping the Miami would free up the parking space and restore the Yard to normal operations.
http://theday.com/article/20121002/NWS09/121009895/1018
Some disruptions have already occurred. Back in October 2012, the USS Providence was routed to the General Dynamics Electric Boat facilities in Connecticut because the Miami could not be moved. I don't know what that change cost to mobilize and execute, but scrapping the Miami would free up the parking space and restore the Yard to normal operations.
http://theday.com/article/20121002/NWS09/121009895/1018
Shouldn't have been much of a problem the Providence is home ported in Groton about 1/2 mile up river from EB. We see the guys from the base in EB's yard all the time. I believe the Navy and EB have a very good relationship with regards to graving docks. After all taking the ship to EB is like taking your car back to the dealer for it's 50,000 mile service!!
Napoleon
08-14-13, 08:59 AM
India's turn:
http://www.ndtv.com/video/player/news/watch-video-of-explosion-on-ins-sindhurakshak/286797?h_also_see
Lots of secondary explosions. :eek:
stroker
08-14-13, 02:20 PM
Lots of secondary explosions. :eek:
Torpedos cooking off go BOOM!
cameraman
08-14-13, 04:59 PM
Lots of secondary explosions. :eek:
That tape is a loop of one explosion.
No cause for the explosion has been revealed, but there were 18 killed.
http://timesofap.com/politics/navy-says-all-18-sailors-on-board-ins-sindhurakshak-have-died.html
$30 mil to fix a missile cruiser that was accidentally hit by a drone missile. Is that ironic? ;)
http://news.usni.org/2013/12/30/navy-six-months-repairs-drone-struck-ship-will-cost-30-million
What makes the repairs so expensive is that the spot where the drone hit was a computer network hub.
I know the modern navy is all about stand-off weapons and that they don't sail in a line of battle anymore to bash each other at point blank range, but C'mon. I was expecting a dent and some scuffed paint not a tear in the side of the ship.
USS Miami officially deactivated (http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/mar/28/navy-says-goodbye-to-fire-damaged-submarine/) this past Friday. Will be cut up for scrap.
The shipyard worker who set her on fire should suffer the same fate. :irked:
Glad to see steps have been taken to prevent future fires.
Pretty expensive lesson though.
Good article on Submarine accident rate:
http://www.theday.com/article/20140330/NWS09/303309954/1017
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