View Full Version : Who here doesn't think your
SurfaceUnits
07-05-12, 01:50 PM
diplomats and bureuacrats won't dick around until Iran has nukes? Personally, I think they will dick around long after Iran gets nukes. YVMV
The ruling class is worse than worthless; they are dangerous
TrueBrit
07-05-12, 03:04 PM
IBTL...
Methanolandbrats
07-05-12, 04:24 PM
This thread really needs some mention of Jews, Israels nukes (alledgedly) and repeated UN sanction and human rights violations by said Israelis. So why can't Iran have the same weapons? Same ******** that has been going on since the british carved up the middle east....the west knows best :big finger:
(That oughta do it :D) I'm proud to post in this important thread with my pal from across the pond :thumbup:
nissan gtp
07-05-12, 05:17 PM
I have no doubt that Iran having nukes would be really bad. Not because they could use them, which they might try, but they certainly could put them in the hands of people that would.
It's a nearly impossible military objective (i.e., to knock out their capabilities) with extreme political consequences no matter if you succeed, fail, or end up somewhere in the middle. The US would be blamed no matter who does it/tries it. So I suppose if you go in, go big. Using our own nukes is the 'obvious' approach, but that would be a poop-storm like we've never seen before (as it should be).
The de-nukification of South Africa (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Africa_and_weapons_of_mass_destruction) might serve as an instructive model, but the societal forces that drove that probably don't exist in Iran. If we're all fortunate, there is an Iranian Nelson Mandella.
SurfaceUnits
07-06-12, 07:07 AM
So why can't Iran have the same weapons?
ummm because at the moment Iran is the only country ruled by persons who believe it is their duty to end the world,,,all that peaceful Islam stuff set aside
For you who like religious nut cases Mahdi’s followers are often called ‘Twelvers’. There is a new lable for you who like to use them
Ahmadinejad is also someone who believes he has been told by the prophet Mohammed that he is the chosen one to hasten the return of the Muslim’s messiah by creating chaos throughout the world.
This thread really needs some mention of Jews,only socialists see a need for that
Iran: We can destroy US bases 'minutes after an attack' (http://worldnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/07/05/12572182-iran-we-can-destroy-us-bases-minutes-after-an-attack?lite)
Destroy? :rolleyes:
only socialists see a need for that
Maybe you could explain to me the connection between being socialist and being anti-Jew. Enlighten me.
Maybe you could explain to me the connection between being socialist and being anti-Jew. Enlighten me.
SurfaceUnits points out that socialists of the 20th century were responsible for wiping out millions of jews. But he had to include personal dig so it was removed.
Rogue Leader
07-06-12, 01:39 PM
This is the same guy who's "mighty air force" is a fleet of old F-14s that do not fly due to lack of spare parts. They parade em around every once in a while, but there is no doubt the US, or Israel would shellac them pretty quickly. That is of course unless the Chinese or someone else stupid who wants money decide to help them. Iran does have no shortage of cash.
datachicane
07-06-12, 01:44 PM
SurfaceUnits points out that socialists of the 20th century were responsible for wiping out millions of jews.
That's a bit of a revisionist interpretation, even if Beck finds it convincing.
Racing Truth
07-06-12, 02:07 PM
SurfaceUnits points out that socialists of the 20th century were responsible for wiping out millions of jews. But he had to include personal dig so it was removed.
Huh? I'll give you Uncle Joe, but what group didn't he go after (mostly b/c he was paranoid about his own power)? Are we going down the Beckian/Jonah Goldberg (http://www.amazon.com/Liberal-Fascism-American-Mussolini-Politics/dp/0385511841/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1341597754&sr=8-1&keywords=liberal+fascism) line of "scholarship":laugh: in which Hitler & Mussolini were really leftists and "good socialists?" If so, well, I really can't help you then.
cameraman
07-06-12, 02:20 PM
Are we going down the Beckian/Jonah Goldberg line of "scholarship":laugh: in which Hitler & Mussolini were really leftists and "good socialists?"
Are you making that up? Probably not but good Lord.:shakehead
Racing Truth
07-06-12, 02:34 PM
To the topic at hand, first, anyone who talks about Ahmadinejad as the main factor here clearly doesn't understand Iranian politics, such as they are. Mahmoud has been severely neutered in the internal hardliner battles. The one man that matters is Khamenei. No one else matters on this issue.
Two, "containment" IS a lousy, no-good option. You'll have a destabilized ME, with Tehran having some blackmail power. But when push comes to shove, it's also the least awful option too. Only a few w/ in the inner circle of PM Netanyahu seem to think a strike will do anything more than delay Iran for a couple yrs., with retaliation, via Hezbollah and other assymetric means quite possible. All while unifying Iranians to a regime they don't like. In short, not worth it.
Racing Truth
07-06-12, 02:36 PM
Are you making that up? Probably not but good Lord.:shakehead
Oh, I wish I were. I'd say more, but that would truly be too political.
TrueBrit
07-06-12, 04:54 PM
SurfaceUnits points out that socialists of the 20th century were responsible for wiping out millions of jews.
Really? Which ones?
datachicane
07-06-12, 05:25 PM
You know what really sucks? Tactics masquerading as conviction. There may be no arguing with success, but count me out.
Racing Truth
07-06-12, 06:44 PM
Really? Which ones?
C'mon, you never heard of that noted leftist Hitler?:gomer:;)
Iran with nukes is bad. Saudi Arabia and the Gulf States responding to the threat with purchases of nukes instead of F1 races is worse. There is way too much crazy in that sandbox.
Bad neighbors are the same all over. If you complain about their behaviour, you're the jerk. If you do nothing, you encourage more of the same. Sure you could organize some other neighbors who feel the same way into a united coalition and confront the guy. But that's almost worse than before, because now every decision has to be agreed to by the entire group and they can't agree on anything except that violence is off the table. Even though you workout and can still kick ass, your partners beat their swords into plowshares long ago and are reluctant to get physical, except for that little guy in the corner who keeps playing with a switchblade mubbling about "never again." So you sit around and listen to that French cat lady from across the street babble on and on about how the group should just send a stern letter and who then calls you stupid when you disagree. As a result, you end up spending more time in this jerk's company trying to convince him not to be a jerk, but he loves being a jerk more than any incentive you can offer him to not be a jerk. Inevitably, the jerky behaviour continues, the coalition fractures under the weight of it's failures, and you're left with the same choice you had at the beginning: Be the ******* that everyone, including half your family, will criticize for overreacting and live in peace, OR learn to love thy neighbor and live with his bad behaviour until something really bad happens. At which point eveyone will blame you for not acting sooner.
Think of Iran as a sex offender living next to an Elementary school trying to buy an ice cream truck.
Some **** you just can't let slide.
Methanolandbrats
07-06-12, 09:11 PM
Socialists were responsible for the holocaust? That is just stupid. Look up totalitarian if you never took political science. Back on topic, the holocaust is irrelevant, it's ancient history, WGAF. The problem now is Israel and it's human rights abuses as well as the still condescending attitude towards Arab nations by the west.
C'mon, you never heard of that noted leftist Hitler?:gomer:;)
Just out of curiousity...what makes you think he was a right-winger?
His belief in market capitalism?...monarchy? religion/theocracy? sovereign ctizenship?
Hitler wasn't a commie,more of a corporatist,but he considered himself a socialist(as did Mussolini). Imperial Japan on the other hand...
Personally,I'm not so sure modern definitions of the left/right spectrum apply to much of what was going on in those days. They were all completely psychotic anyways.
Just out of curiousity...what makes you think he (Hitler) was a right-winger?
Does anyone think Hitler believed in limited government or the free market?
cameraman
07-07-12, 12:04 PM
In some sectors he did, in others he didn't. Direct comparisons between then and now don't work because the left-right spectrum has been redefined since 1930's Europe. The entire exercise of trying to place 1930's dictators onto the current political spectrum a fool's errand.
In some sectors he did, in others he didn't.
Can you name a sector where Hitler believed in limited government?
I agree that the left/right thing doesn't apply to maniacs.
Insomniac
07-07-12, 12:32 PM
Neither the left or right believe in limited government. They believe in limited government where it suits them. No terms have any meaning anymore except as a means to attack.
There really aren't any good options with Iran. Iran with nukes or war to stop them. We can't afford war, so diplomacy is our best hope. (That and trying to drag out how long it takes for them to get nukes as long as possible.)
extramundane
07-07-12, 02:00 PM
In some sectors he did, in others he didn't. Direct comparisons between then and now don't work because the left-right spectrum has been redefined since 1930's Europe. The entire exercise of trying to place 1930's dictators onto the current political spectrum a fool's errand.
This. We can't even fit 1970s US politicians neatly into the current political spectrum...
TravelGal
07-07-12, 04:39 PM
Good post Gnam.
Bad neighbors are the same all over. If you complain about their behaviour, you're the jerk. If you do nothing, you encourage more of the same. Sure you could organize some other neighbors who feel the same way into a united coalition and confront the guy. But that's almost worse than before, because now every decision has to be agreed to by the entire group and they can't agree on anything except that violence is off the table. Even though you workout and can still kick ass, your partners beat their swords into plowshares long ago and are reluctant to get physical, except for that little guy in the corner who keeps playing with a switchblade mubbling about "never again." So you sit around and listen to that French cat lady from across the street babble on and on about how the group should just send a stern letter and who then calls you stupid when you disagree. As a result, you end up spending more time in this jerk's company trying to convince him not to be a jerk, but he loves being a jerk more than any incentive you can offer him to not be a jerk. Inevitably, the jerky behaviour continues, the coalition fractures under the weight of it's failures, and you're left with the same choice you had at the beginning: Be the ******* that everyone, including half your family, will criticize for overreacting and live in peace, OR learn to love thy neighbor and live with his bad behaviour until something really bad happens. At which point eveyone will blame you for not acting sooner.
Hey, I used to live there. 50-something guy would vandalize the neighbors property (if it offended him, like for instance a boat parked overnight in a driveway), he killed all the neighborhood dogs, he wrote threatening letters, he "corrected" others' landscaping he didn't like, etc. Police did ****. I moved.
So, we either do something about it, or we let it happen, or we find another world. When's the next shuttle to Mars?
And regarding the socialist/Jew thing, revisionist history scares me. How can so many in this country choose to believe that which is obviously not correct (to a sane person). Myths about Obama and Romney? Myths about who was responsible for past wars and genocides? Myths about the founding of our country? Myths about anything necessary to confirm their own prejudices? Scary. :shakehead
datachicane
07-09-12, 06:09 PM
Re: Iran and nukes, brave talk from the sidelines as usual.
If Stuxnet isn't an adequate response, precisely what strategy would you advocate? The only politics that mean a damn to Khamenei are internal, so any diplomatic strategy is bound to be of limited utility at best. That leaves direct military intervention, and we've seen how well "Yee, Ha!" works as a foreign policy. Buncha politically motivated griping with no workable alternatives IMHO.
Like I said, tactics masquerading as convictions suck.
Racing Truth
07-09-12, 06:34 PM
Re: Iran and nukes, brave talk from the sidelines as usual.
If Stuxnet isn't an adequate response, precisely what strategy would you advocate? The only politics that mean a damn to Khamenei are internal, so any diplomatic strategy is bound to be of limited utility at best. That leaves direct military intervention, and we've seen how well "Yee, Ha!" works as a foreign policy. Buncha politically motivated griping with no workable alternatives IMHO.
Like I said, tactics masquerading as convictions suck.
Right. To Gnam's post, what if you can't really stop, by force, the bad neighbor? Do you still confront them or do you "occupy" their house indefinetly?
Insomniac
07-10-12, 08:24 AM
I think you have to modify the neighbor analogy to add some neighbors don't have a problem with what that neighbor is doing and others who have a lot of influence either won't get involved or benefit from the neighbor doing that.
SurfaceUnits
07-13-12, 03:43 AM
Socialists were responsible for the holocaust? That is just stupid. Look up totalitarian if you never took political science. Back on topic, the holocaust is irrelevant, it's ancient history, WGAF. The problem now is Israel and it's human rights abuses as well as the still condescending attitude towards Arab nations by the west.
as soon as Israelis or citizens of a western country take Palestinian olympic athletes hostage and execute them, I'm right there with you bro.
– Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat has amassed a personal fortune of about $1.3 billion - cry me a river
and his wife is given tens of thousands of pounds each week to fund a lavish lifestyle in Paris
Security sources say Suha is seeking to ensure herself a large inheritance after her husband’s death, and is delaying as long as possible the publication of his actual health status while negotiations with key PLO financial figures commence. They say she’s hired a team of French lawyers to help her gain access to Arafat’s fortune, which is said to be in accounts spread around the world.
Arafat is said to be worth hundreds of millions or possibly billions, mostly from money he secretly shifted to bank accounts in his name by allegedly plundering financial aid sent to help a battered West Bank and Gaza economy over the years.
In a report to international donors, Arafat acknowledged the existence of a multimillion-dollar slush fund. For years, Arafat directly controlled income from Palestinian Authority monopolies over cement and gasoline.
What if the Palestinian leadership gave a damn about Palestinians
TrueBrit
07-13-12, 11:09 AM
as soon as Israelis or citizens of a western country take Palestinian olympic athletes hostage and execute them, I'm right there with you bro. *cough* West Bank *cough* occupied territory
– Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat has amassed a personal fortune of about $1.3 billion - cry me a river
and his wife is given tens of thousands of pounds each week to fund a lavish lifestyle in Paris
Security sources say Suha is seeking to ensure herself a large inheritance after her husband’s death, and is delaying as long as possible the publication of his actual health status while negotiations with key PLO financial figures commence. They say she’s hired a team of French lawyers to help her gain access to Arafat’s fortune, which is said to be in accounts spread around the world.
Arafat is said to be worth hundreds of millions or possibly billions, mostly from money he secretly shifted to bank accounts in his name by allegedly plundering financial aid sent to help a battered West Bank and Gaza economy over the years.
In a report to international donors, Arafat acknowledged the existence of a multimillion-dollar slush fund. For years, Arafat directly controlled income from Palestinian Authority monopolies over cement and gasoline.
What if the Palestinian leadership gave a damn about Palestinians
Um, you know he's dead, right? Has been since 2004...
SurfaceUnits
07-13-12, 01:24 PM
*cough* West Bank *cough* occupied territory
wouldn't be if Arafat & friends hadn't rejected Palestinian statehood on more than one occasion
probably because they didn't want to get the Anwar Sadat treatment from their peace loving fellow Palestinians
Um, you know he's dead, right? Has been since 2004...
that's when it was written
Just double checked and Arrafat is still dead. Yes, the Palistinian people are a cat's-paw for everyone who hates the Israelis. Not sure any of that is relevant.
What is relevant is that the Israelis aren't going to stand by forever to wait and see what the Iranians will do if they become a nuclear power. If the international community can't disuade them eventually Israel will take their shot and that's only going to complicate things.
It's a mystery how much capability Israel can realisticly bring to bare in Iran or how effective it would be. Israel has always used that uncertainty to their advantage and more than once they've surprised people who underestimated them.
But it's a mistake to assume that this is just about Israel. Iran is run by Islamists who believe their mission is to wipe the world clean of the rest of us. It's foolish to think that a nuclear armed Iran wouldn't become emboldened to all sorts of mischief.
How many flat tops can fit in the Persian Gulf?
1. CVN 65 Enterprise
2. CVN 69 Eisenhower
3. CVN 72 Lincoln
4. LHD 7 Iwo Jima
...and coming in August
5. CVN 74 John C. Stennis
http://img32.imageshack.us/img32/4558/carriers20middle20east0.jpg
http://www.kitsapsun.com/news/2012/jul/09/uss-stennis-going-right-back-to-mideast/#ixzz20DIpekWx
SurfaceUnits
07-20-12, 01:47 AM
How many flat tops can fit in the Persian Gulf?
http://www.kitsapsun.com/news/2012/jul/09/uss-stennis-going-right-back-to-mideast/#ixzz20DIpekWx
full or modified battle groups?
Let's Make a Deal
Six world powers and Iran reached a preliminary agreement early Sunday to curb Tehran's disputed nuclear program after a marathon negotiating session, potentially ending a decade of diplomatic stalemate.
After four days of talks that repeatedly appeared ready to collapse, officials announced that they had agreed on a six-month deal aimed at giving Iran limited sanctions relief in return for temporary curbs on its nuclear program.
http://www.latimes.com/world/la-fg-iran-talks-20131124,0,5220773.story#axzz2lbIM08CZ
Holy macaroni. Did the world just get safer or more dangerous? Depends where you live I guess.
Somewhere in a palace there is a Saudi official yelling at a underling, "What is this bull****?! Back in the good ol' days, when you bought an infidel dog crusader, he stayed bought!"
edit: seen on the internet:
If you like your centrifuges , you can keep your centrifuges. Period.
:laugh:
Somewhere in a palace there is a Saudi official yelling at a underling, "What is this bull****?! Back in the good ol' days, when you bought an infidel dog crusader, he stayed bought!"
:laugh:
:)
It could be a good thing if it all works out as we would hope. I fear a series of stalls and delays that ends up with an Islamist version of North Korea.
Let's not go there on the health care quips.
Sent from my KFTT using Tapatalk 2
SurfaceUnits
11-25-13, 02:38 PM
ICYMI: Iranian officials say the US has already unfrozen $8 billion in assets; vow to continue nuclear enrichment http://goo.gl/xZU4k8
Community organizers make great negotiators
Iran nuclear deal: Saudi Arabia warns it will strike out on its own
Saudi Arabia claims they were kept in the dark by Western allies over Iran nuclear deal and says it will strike out on its own
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/iran/10472538/Iran-nuclear-deal-Saudi-Arabia-warns-it-will-strike-out-on-its-own.html
In general we try to permit the discussion of foreign affairs when it doesn't become overtly political. References to U.S. political groups or individuals are likely to get your post moderated.
It would be interesting to know if the Iran deal had any influence on the Syria situation last summer. That seemed to be the point where American interests separated from Saudi interests, at least publicly. Avoiding conflict with Syria to keep Iran at the negotiating table seems like a plausible theory given the new information.
Geo-politics sure ain't checkers. :\
Iranian General Salami is the new Baghdad Bob.
A top Iranian military leader announced late Tuesday that Iran has developed “indigenous” ballistic missile technology, which could eventually allow it to fire a nuclear payload over great distances.
http://freebeacon.com/iran-announces-development-of-ballistic-missile-technology/
indigenous Ballistic missiles? c'mon son.
If they have 'em, you know they bought them from North Korea.
They can't even produce a fighter jet. :gomer:
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