The Cosworth 2.65L XF

[SurfaceUnits]

Will we ever see them raced again?

What would it take to stroke them down to a 2.2L or 2.0?

If I recall correctly, in the later years the turbo was used more for muffler than boost

[Methanolandbrats]

1) probly not, but I hope so.
2) big buckets of money
3) was for boost, mufffler part is accidental bi-product of turbo.

[SurfaceUnits]

1) probly not, but I hope so.
2) big buckets of money
3) was for boost, mufffler part is accidental bi-product of turbo.

not much boost when you are down 3-400 hp

[nrc]

My recollection is that even detuned for durability the Cosworth was still making 600+.

[SurfaceUnits]

My recollection is that even detuned for durability the Cosworth was still making 600+.

the Atlantics 2.0L i-4 was making 300HP

[Easy]

You can see 2.65 Cosworths racing where they belong, vintage events.

The new indycar engines are weak sauce but displacement and number of cylinders would have been reduced 10+ years ago if there was no split.

Hell, without the split we would likely be on a second massive engine change about now. 2.2 or 2.0 V-6s would likely be getting dropped to 1600cc 4 bangers, with a set of diesel engine rules possibly available as well.

Could have been interesting.

[SurfaceUnits]

in that case, just mount solar panels on the wings and call racing done

[Methanolandbrats]

in that case, just mount solar panels on the wings and call racing done

That's where we are headed and it is done. Once Green ******** snuck under the tent, it was the beginning of the end.

[Racing Truth]

in that case, just mount solar panels on the wings and call racing done

Now, hang on. Let's assume there was no split and that design evolution continues, so that we'd be running an evolution of a mid-90's car.

Awesome! Now, you want that car running 900hp at Indianapolis, Michigan, Fontana? Think that's a sound idea?

I think 700-750hp is needed. More than that is not needed and 900+ seems suicidal to me.

[SurfaceUnits]

read post 1 again

[Chief]

Now, hang on. Let's assume there was no split and that design evolution continues, so that we'd be running an evolution of a mid-90's car.

Awesome! Now, you want that car running 900hp at Indianapolis, Michigan, Fontana? Think that's a sound idea?

I think 700-750hp is needed. More than that is not needed and 900+ seems suicidal to me.

Suicidal? Yet you approved of the aero-excitable backbreaking flyer with N/A boat anchor that spawned the great IRL racers of our time? <gag>

1000hp engines don't kill....it's the morAns driving them and the goofy sanctioning body's rules that do allow them to.

[Easy]

in that case, just mount solar panels on the wings and call racing done

The F1 1.6 turbos were fairly impressive from what I've read/heard/seen. ~1500bhp in qualy trim...

25+ years of advancements could have made a 1.6t formula financially sustainable and still awesome.

[Easy]

Suicidal? Yet you approved of the aero-excitable backbreaking flyer with N/A boat anchor that spawned the great IRL racers of our time? <gag>

1000hp engines don't kill....it's the morAns driving them and the goofy sanctioning body's rules that do allow them to.

So we didn't like de Ferran doing a 241mph lap at Fontana?

[Chief]

I did.

[SurfaceUnits]

Suicidal? Yet you approved of the aero-excitable backbreaking flyer with N/A boat anchor that spawned the great IRL racers of our time? <gag>

1000hp engines don't kill....it's the morAns driving them and the goofy sanctioning body's rules that do allow them to.


The first time Tony George tried it, he killed Scott Brayton

[mapguy]

The first time Tony George tried it, he killed Scott Brayton

As Cheif mention. MorAns. Scott Brayton was only slightly more talented than Dennis Vitolo.

[Indy]

Brayton hit the wall at a very unfortunate angle. No SAFER, poor side impact protection in that car. You could always blame horsepower in a racing accident, but in this case it seems to have been the least of the problems.

[Indy]

This is the same old argument we have been having for years. The underlying problem is that all the good technology has already been exploited. If you allowed a designer to make an unlimited Indy Car you could see 300 MPH laps at Indy. At some point you have to admit that the risk to driver and spectator are not worth it.

Face the hard facts: real racing was always going to be something with a short, glorious life. There could only be one Dan Gurney, because the window of opportunity to create and innovate was so short.

So at some point you have some sort of spec series (not necessarily identical cars but heavily limited, like even F1 is today). If you limit the engines, the cars are too slow, and if you don't, too fast, and regardless, aero wars are boring. If you limit the aero you get damper wars and other enhancements that are kept secret and no one understands anyway. No matter what you do you kill the wonder of the sport.

There is no good solution. Racing is dead.

[pfc_m_drake]

My recollection is that even detuned for durability the Cosworth was still making 600+.
Yep - actually 700+, specifically 750HP for road/street courses and 700HP for ovals. Cosworth's Bruce Wood on the XFE (http://web.archive.org/web/20030302020314/http://www.cart.com/News/Article.asp?ID=5324)

Regarding the technology aspect, I can only speak for myself but the way I've always looked at it is this: I've never had a problem with displacement reductions or boost reductions in the interest of speed reduction for safety reasons. For me, what was always fascinating to watch was to see the engineers 'regain' the HP lost through the reductions - getting performance back to where it was before. At that point, of course, you implement further reductions and begin the process all over again.

An example (not engine related, but similar idea): Everybody remembers that de Ferran ran a 241.428 at Fontana in 2000. Many forget that Mauricio Gugelmin ran a 240.942 at Fontana in 1997, but *without* a Handford device (regular speedway wing package at that point in history), thus making de Ferran's lap all that much more impressive.

[NismoZ]

Reminds me of an entertaining experience I had at RA during one their last ChampCar events. I was lucky enough to have been invited by a crew member into the Newman/Haas pit and had a close up view of PERHAPS the fastest lap in RA history! On a Saturday during the last practice session before qualifying Bruno was flying and I THINK set the fastest time. Things were looking good for qualifying and he was strutting around, all smiles. Bourdais was still on track and looking to regain fast time...and OBLITERATED Bruno's best lap! Junqueria went ballistic when the time was announced and literally pushed me aside to get a look at the pit monitors! He was shouting NO.NO! I thought he was going to throw his helmet! When Bourdais coasted in, the crew descended on the car and they were LAUGHING! Bourdais got out, removed his helmet and could hardly contain himself. I read later he said something like "I was riding a real ROCKET out there!" He knew. TURNS OUT: The pop off valve didn't POP and he was tapping something north of 900hp! He LOVED IT! Is it even possible to find out what that (disallowed) lap time was? All I had to do was look at the monitor but Bruno's antics distracted me!:D

[NismoZ]

And re the previous above?...I STILL wish we had been able to see an experiment with a "Super Atlantic" Mazda 4t. If they could wring an honest 300hp in Atlantics trim what could they get with a turbo...or a twin turbo? Who was it in ALMS that was doing that? I loved that application and it seemed FAST. When the crewman I mentioned in the previous post was moved to the Newman/Wachs Atlantic team he relayed (1st hand) a Wachs-Cotman conservation. Cotman, who recently had left ChampCar for The League, was in discussions about possibly upgrading Indy Lights with a "Super Atlantic." Save Formula Atlantic? Keep Mazda support for the Road To Indy? Upgrade Lights? Talks went nowhere. IRL was worried they would be too fast and embarrass the Indy Cars. Duhhh...ya think?

[SurfaceUnits]

Cotman has left another struggling racing series, btw

[NismoZ]

Probably was making too much sense.

[Chief]

Naaah, he's the strret course setup guy and has his own company and everything. I smell street course desperation/survival mode upcoming. More, upcoming that is.

[NismoZ]

Just taking advantage...makes sense. Doesn't mean it'll work. Probably get paid until it doesn't.