Mergification II Electric Boogaloo

[Easy]

ALMS and GARRA.

Link to pertinent information. (http://auto-racing.speedtv.com/article/sportscar-alms-grand-am-finalizing-merger/)

I guess its better than both limping along like wounded dogs.

[SteveH]

Now limping with two bad legs instead of one each.

Have seen this movie before.

[opinionated ow]

Hopefully that means they will make the cars to ACO spec otherwise the whole series becomes globally irrelevant.

[DagoFast]

Hopefully that means they will make the cars to ACO spec otherwise the whole series becomes globally irrelevant.

I see you still underestimate the level of stupid we are capable of here. :laugh:

If the Frances are involved, set your watch back fifty years.

[NismoZ]

No. Certainly they will go the "more affordable" route, which should be a clue. Hope one can be smarted up as the other is dumbed down...but 4 or 10 cars in each top class MUST improve. Good luck.

[opinionated ow]

I see you still underestimate the level of stupid we are capable of here. :laugh:

If the Frances are involved, set your watch back fifty years.

If an American calls Americans stupid, can I? :p;)

in all seriousness, they run 5L production based V8s. They're legal in FIA sportscar competition for LMP2 cars. Just get some LMP bodies and the drive train could be stuck in. AND they could have the Endurance Triple Crown back together again.

[RTKar]

Wait and see but it looks like the de-evolution of motorsports in the US continues :yuck::mad::irked:

[NismoZ]

Been a LOT of de-evolution going on out there for the last few years. I know I'M feeling it. Sorry to those who think the most expensive technology should rule. I am among those who think a well-managed survival is more important than an inevitable ruination of that segment of the sport... in the US. I honestly feel the best bang for less bucks should trump unregulated bucks. CART was, what, TEN times cheaper than F-1 by the 90's? I'd never say F-1 was 10 times better! I'll wait to see how things shake out before I start calling for people to die in helicopter crashes. Plenty of time for this "TRUE race fan" :D to make up his mind. Just hope that whatever shape it takes makes it to RA in '014.:thumbup: (heck, I hope I just MAKE it to RA in ' 014)

[Rus'L]

Hopefully that means they will make the cars to ACO spec otherwise the whole series becomes globally irrelevant.

The France family wants nothing, absolutely NOTHING to do with the ACO.

(Kind of ironic considering their last name...)

[Rus'L]

Been a LOT of de-evalution going on out there for the last few years. I know I'M feeling it. Sorry to those who think the most expensive technology should rule. I am among those who think a well-managed survival is more important than an inevitable ruination of that segment of the sport... in the US. I honestly feel the best bang for less bucks should trump unregulated bucks. CART was, what, TEN times cheaper than F-1 by the 90's? I'd never say F-1 was 10 times better! I'll wait to see how things shake out before I start calling for people to die in helicopter crashes. Plenty of time for this "TRUE race fan" :D to make up his mind. Just hope that whatever shape it takes makes it to RA in '014.:thumbup: (heck, I hope I just MAKE it to RA in ' 014)

I'm the opposite. If the top levels of the sport can not survive with technology involved, then I say let the sport die.

Way back, I cared about NASCAR. Don't give a hoot now. Don't care about Indy car anymore. Grand Am bores me to death to watch.

The only series I follow, watch, and get excited about now are F1 and ALMS. That will now be down to one series...

[TRDfan]

I have a feeling this won't end well.....

but I'll hold out hope for a while.

[Indy]

I'm the opposite. If the top levels of the sport can not survive with technology involved, then I say let the sport die.

Way back, I cared about NASCAR. Don't give a hoot now. Don't care about Indy car anymore. Grand Am bores me to death to watch.

The only series I follow, watch, and get excited about now are F1 and ALMS. That will now be down to one series...

This.

[Elmo T]

I'm the opposite. If the top levels of the sport can not survive with technology involved, then I say let the sport die.




All part of the Gomerification of us all. I blame Honey Boo Boo child. :shakehead

[Lux Interior]

The global economy has been down for a few years. I think if things start going strong again, things like sportscars will go strong too.

[chop456]

I'm the opposite. If the top levels of the sport can not survive with technology involved, then I say let the sport die.

Way back, I cared about NASCAR. Don't give a hoot now. Don't care about Indy car anymore. Grand Am bores me to death to watch.

The only series I follow, watch, and get excited about now are F1 and ALMS. That will now be down to one series...

This.

[cameraman]

Maybe they will get it right, I really doubt it but I'll at least watch to see what they come up with.

[Al Czervik]

I'm guessing Prototurtles and Euro-spec GT cars. Hope I'm wrong on the 'turtles.

[cameraman]

Why would they run prototurtles when a Le Mans Prototype Challenge car probably costs less and I guessing is faster and I know is better looking?

[Gnam]

I don't care for the image of P1 prototypes running around the Daytona infield, but I have to assume Don Panoz and the Frances can hammer out a better merger than the brain trust at Indy.

A P1/P2/LMPC/Scrubbing Bubble/Delta Wing battle royal would be fun to watch. Let the competitors choose the ride that's best for them.

One downside: Laguna Seca is going to lose an event.

[cameraman]

One downside: Laguna Seca is going to lose an event.

And Lime Rock, Mid-Ohio and Road America.

[extramundane]

Presser at 10AM Eastern tomorrow- guess we'll find out a few things then.

[NismoZ]

Re: event losing. As I suggested, a well managed merger with cost management changes that INCREASE the size of each class is a major goal, correct? I'd love to see a strong GT field. SO strong that they could run separate races, in the "sprint" events. Maybe a GT 1,2 and 3? Or at least a GTO and a GTU like the old IMSA days? Then a P-1 and a P-2 event to cap the weekend? They'd all race together at Daytona, Sebring, RA, Atlanta and ?? I'd rather see ONE major weekend event displaying all the top classes, cars, teams and drivers than two weak ones...any time! Bring back the Road America 500!

[Rogue Leader]

Reading through this I'm still very torn. of course we wanted this multiple series crap to stop (as we did in the Cart/IRL days), but this has the potential to suck as much as that deal.

To be considered on an international stage, the P1 type cars need to stay. As well the ALMS GT formula needs to stay. Working in their favor (as in won't piss off the teams too much) is that not a whole lot of teams have adopted the new DPs, so they all aren't losing all their money. Against it is of course P1's are expensive to build/develop and Dyson and Muscle Milk will have a huge head start, along with any international teams that decide to return (Champion Audi maybe?).

I really just can't predict what we are gonna see tomorrow, because I'm too hopeful that this merged series will remain an international force. But sadly, its going to be managed by Grand Am based on what we know, GA = France = DP's and underbuilt GT cars.

[DagoFast]

I'll go out on a big thick limb here and save you the trouble of waiting until tomorrow: The France family will NEVER get in bed with the ACO, or the FIA. Hell will freeze over and A.J. Foyt will become politically correct first.


Unless they are all hitting JC's stash. Then all bets are off. :p

[Racing Truth]

Via NSSN, it's a better result than I'd expected: (http://www.nationalspeedsportnews.com/road-racing/merger-nears-for-alms-grand-am/)





A key element to all of this will be the class structure of the combined championship, which according to insiders will see the continuation of the unique Daytona Prototypes as the top tier sports racers supported by the ALMS’s current privateer oriented LMP2 prototype contingent.

As for the production cars, there, it is said that the Panoz championship’s present GT set will retain its headlining status, while the ALMS spec, all Porsche GTC category will be folded into the Grand-Am’s GT arena that will become the support production class which will be run under the GT3 moniker.

Left out of the new equation will be the present ALMS LMP1 prototypes, as well as the current LMPC spec cars. More importantly, the present association between the ALMS and the organizers of the Le Mans 24 Hour classic, from whom the Panoz tour leases its regulations, will be ended.


I'm assuming we'll see some combo of increased DP pace and slowed down P2's to roughly equalize. Keeping the top GT class is a big victory (Corvettes- the real ones-, Ferrari, etc.).

As to the end of P1, I'm astounded by the angst over this literally everywhere I've read posts on this. Short of one, maybe two, events (Sebring and PLM), you're all worrying about... THREE CARS. Three! I mean, really folks? Think you can base a series whose top class has 3 entries? Don't think so.

Oh, and Atherton to run the thing, not the Daytona boys.

All in all, I'm OK-positive on this.

[Racing Truth]

I'll go out on a big thick limb here and save you the trouble of waiting until tomorrow: The France family will NEVER get in bed with the ACO, or the FIA. Hell will freeze over and A.J. Foyt will become politically correct first.


Unless they are all hitting JC's stash. Then all bets are off. :p

:raiseshand: NOT getting/being involved with the ACO is a feature, not a bug.

:runs:

[Gnam]

I wonder where the Le Mans teams will hold their 12 hour warm up race if Sebring is no longer an international event with a P1 class? Maybe they'll rent the track after the race for a private test like Audi did?

Also curious if American teams will still get invites to the 24 Hours if they aren't racing in an ACO sanctioned series.

[Racing Truth]

One more thought: If you wonder why, despite it's many flaws, I still want IndyCar to survive as is, well, consider this:

AMA- Daytona owned and operated.
Sports Car- Soon to be Daytona owned.

I'm envisioning two futures. 1: IndyCar dies and the only stuff left is NASCAR-owned. 2: IndyCar bought, owned by... NASCAR, thus meaning everything is NASCAR-owned.

I can't help but think that's bad for US motorsports, even NASCAR itself. Only one group coming up with ideas for all of American racing helps no one, while potentially ending the diversity (not racially, but nevermind) of motorsports in this country.

Just realized: The only thing seemingly standing in the way of total NASCAR control over US motorsports? IMS.:eek: Oh boy.

[Racing Truth]

I wonder where the Le Mans teams will hold their 12 hour warm up race if Sebring is no longer an international event with a P1 class? Maybe they'll rent the track after the race for a private test like Audi did?

Also curious if American teams will still get invites to the 24 Hours if they aren't racing in an ACO sanctioned series.

To the first part, WEC perhaps (Austin)? Good question on the second.

[Racing Truth]

Interesting from Dagys: (http://auto-racing.speedtv.com/article/grand-am-details-of-alms-unification-emerge/)


** There appears to be a desire to continue a relationship with the Automobile Club de l’Ouest, although the current agreement with the ALMS expires in 2013. Many questions still surround this potential arrangement, especially as it could relate to the class structure and international link.

Hmmm.

Also, as I thought/hoped, DPs rumored to have their pace bumped up. But Atherton NOT, apparently, running it.

[NismoZ]

Really? VERRRRY interesting. Help me here: DPs remain the main event? GTs are based on the ALMS spec? P2 is dumbed down, because they'd be faster than the DPs? The ALMS guy runs the show? Correct me, please, because that all makes good sense! That 3 car ALMS P-1 is riDICulous. A merge MIGHT give the grid perhaps 13 to 16 DPs maybe as high as 18-20? The GT spec is GOOD, because that appeals to the big manufacturers and, Duhhh, LE MANS? They (the Euros) don't fear Corvette, they LIKE that American element. So... is this a "WE get DPs, YOU get GTs AND the boss" scenerio? To be blunt, NObody will compete with Audi, Renault, Honda etc. in Euro-spec so EMPHASIZE GTs! Have to say, I am up with that! We don't NEED big foreign race oriented manufacturers running here in prototype cars, but the foreign GT mfgrs. DO need their cars running and winning in the US. Am I THAT wrong? Still hoping.

[NismoZ]

Oh? Atherton does NOT lord over DPs, but DOES run GTs, then? GOOD! The 3 US P-1 guys can go to Europe and compete and here we can run the best GT field on earth! My guess is Dyson and Muscle Milk will be fielding GREAT GT cars! I don't see Corvette cutting back on either the DP OR GT class in that situation. ( PS- I would LOVE to see Greg Pickett in a white #6 Corvette again!)

[Lux Interior]

:thumdown:Not happy. I like the P1 cars. Glad I went to Road Atlanta when the big cars were running.

I'll go to the Spa WEC round unless Sebring stays as a WEC event.

[Methanolandbrats]

Whatever they come up with will have as much to do with sports car racing as a dog dragging it's ass across the carpet. Leaving a shitstain while making left and right turns does not make you a road racing series.

[Rogue Leader]

IIRC I saw something last week talking about a race at Austin replacing Sebring. I'm assuming thats most likely a go based on todays news.

[DagoFast]

Via NSSN, it's a better result than I'd expected: (http://www.nationalspeedsportnews.com/road-racing/merger-nears-for-alms-grand-am/)



I'm assuming we'll see some combo of increased DP pace and slowed down P2's to roughly equalize. Keeping the top GT class is a big victory (Corvettes- the real ones-, Ferrari, etc.).

As to the end of P1, I'm astounded by the angst over this literally everywhere I've read posts on this. Short of one, maybe two, events (Sebring and PLM), you're all worrying about... THREE CARS. Three! I mean, really folks? Think you can base a series whose top class has 3 entries? Don't think so.

Oh, and Atherton to run the thing, not the Daytona boys.

All in all, I'm OK-positive on this.

You're an idiot.

[Indy]

I guess I'll give them the same shot I gave Indy Car in 2008. Here you go, boys, you have one big chance not to **** this up.

I won't be holding my breath.

[stroker]

Just realized: The only thing seemingly standing in the way of total NASCAR control over US motorsports? IMS.:eek: Oh boy.

You can see why we're all filled with optimism. :shakehead

[extramundane]

Presser at 10AM Eastern tomorrow- guess we'll find out a few things then.

Or not. No name yet, no class structure yet (just some vague references). :\

Nothing to see here. Move along.

[Methanolandbrats]

When is merger not a merger? When nothing has been decided and both sides are having visions. :rofl:

[Racing Truth]

You're an idiot.

That's mighty thoughtful.:gomer::gomer:

Care to explain WHY I'm an idiot on this?

[Rogue Leader]

Just hope some better TV coverage comes out of this. If I have to watch another ALMS race where they mention at least 40 times about how theres 5 different classes of cars causing a race within a race, I'll scream.

[Gnam]

How soon can they race in China? :gomer:

[DagoFast]

That's mighty thoughtful.:gomer::gomer:

Care to explain WHY I'm an idiot on this?

Do I really need to? You emphasize my point with almost every post you make. :Pigeonstrut

[Easy]

So, to paraphrase...

DF: You're an idiot.

RT: Why exactly?

DF: Because motorsports haven't evolved exactly the way I wanted them to and I have trouble expressing my unreasonable frustration with that.

[Gnam]

More assumptions:
1. The new series will be televised on Speed like Grand Am is now.

2. Tracks that both run on will stay on schedule:
* Mid Ohio
* Road America
* Laguna Seca
* Lime Rock

3. ALMS tracks that will be added to schedule:
* Long Beach
* Road Atlanta

4. Grand Am tracks that will stay:
* Watkins Glenn
* Montreal
* Indianapolis Speedway :yuck:

5. More shared weekends with IndyCar and NASCAR (nationwide/trucks)

[DagoFast]

No, not unreasonable frustration at all. Unlike open wheel or motorcycles, I have zero emotional or monetary investment in sports car racing. But I do have eyes, ears and a long memory.

I just find it amusing that so many listen to the cheery BS of a press conference but always fail to remember past outcomes. EVERY single time the Daytona Mafia has bought, merged or partnered with anyone, its all smiles and platitudes. And within a short time, what emerges is only the France family or their handpicked stooges still standing. Anyone seen Buddy Jobe lately? :laugh:

More recently, how about when DMG took over motorcycle racing from the AMA? They had the usual upbeat press conference, made all the nice assurances to the racers and the fans, hell Jim France and Rodger Edmonson even asked for suggestions! Then they promptly turned around and ignored everyone and did exactly as they pleased. If you didn't like it, well tough. You either knuckle under or you are GONE. (and there sure are a LOT of folks GONE...got crowd?? Got all 4 Japanese factories????)

It's sheer lunacy to think this time will be different. But all the usual suspects here are already setting themselves up for failure/disappointment: "Hey, I'll try a bite of that sheet sammich"!

I'll spell it out for you in as simple and as plain of language as I can: The France family is all about the France family. Its always been their way or the highway. There will be no "hands across the water" with the FIA or the ACO. Very soon you won't be seeing 'Mericun sports car drivers go to Europe. (just like you no longer see any 'Mericun riders go to MotoGP or WSBK) When Master France owns you, you only work on HIS plantation. Mark my words; either Scott Atherton becomes a good little toady or he disappears. Hell, do you really think a former plantation owner like Dr. Don will still be on the board in 2 years? 5 years?

History. You either learn from it :cool: or repeat it. :cry:

[TrueBrit]

Awesome...the dumbing-down of American motorsport continues...what could possibly go wrong, I mean look at the massive success that the CART/IRL merger had...oh wait...

[extramundane]

DSC got an interesting snippet:


In response to a question concerning current entrants in the ALMS, Scott Atherton confirmed that all existing cars in both series (ALMS and GA) will be accommodated in the new regulations in 2014 “with reasonable modifications.” There will be no new classes, in 2014 at least. It is not clear if this will include the new GX class, but the assumption has to be that it will.

Jim France, when asked about open-topped cars racing at Daytona, said that he had no problem with them racing at the DIS; just that the current GA regs don’t cater for open-topped cars.

Counting GX, that's 8 classes of cars to work with. Good luck.

[Racing Truth]

DSC got an interesting snippet:



Counting GX, that's 8 classes of cars to work with. Good luck.

No way they continue P1, and why should they? For 2-3 regular entries?

I suspect DPs and P2s will continue, BUT in one equalized (roughly) class. Both GT classes continue. I'd consider LMPC, but other than that, 4 (really, 3) classes is plenty, no?

[extramundane]

No way they continue P1, and why should they? For 2-3 regular entries?

Nobody suggested they would. The quote in question says that all existing cars in both series (ALMS and GA) will be accommodated in the new regulations in 2014 somehow. Some of the "accommodations" will be fairly easy, but they're still trying to potentially funnel 8 classes worth of cars into 3 or 4.

As I said: good luck.

[Racing Truth]

No, not unreasonable frustration at all. Unlike open wheel or motorcycles, I have zero emotional or monetary investment in sports car racing. But I do have eyes, ears and a long memory.

I just find it amusing that so many listen to the cheery BS of a press conference but always fail to remember past outcomes. EVERY single time the Daytona Mafia has bought, merged or partnered with anyone, its all smiles and platitudes. And within a short time, what emerges is only the France family or their handpicked stooges still standing. Anyone seen Buddy Jobe lately? :laugh:

More recently, how about when DMG took over motorcycle racing from the AMA? They had the usual upbeat press conference, made all the nice assurances to the racers and the fans, hell Jim France and Rodger Edmonson even asked for suggestions! Then they promptly turned around and ignored everyone and did exactly as they pleased. If you didn't like it, well tough. You either knuckle under or you are GONE. (and there sure are a LOT of folks GONE...got crowd?? Got all 4 Japanese factories????)

It's sheer lunacy to think this time will be different. But all the usual suspects here are already setting themselves up for failure/disappointment: "Hey, I'll try a bite of that sheet sammich"!

I'll spell it out for you in as simple and as plain of language as I can: The France family is all about the France family. Its always been their way or the highway. There will be no "hands across the water" with the FIA or the ACO. Very soon you won't be seeing 'Mericun sports car drivers go to Europe. (just like you no longer see any 'Mericun riders go to MotoGP or WSBK) When Master France owns you, you only work on HIS plantation. Mark my words; either Scott Atherton becomes a good little toady or he disappears. Hell, do you really think a former plantation owner like Dr. Don will still be on the board in 2 years? 5 years?

History. You either learn from it :cool: or repeat it. :cry:

See, I actually share some of your concern, esp. in NASCAR/Daytona controlling too much in American racing. Never followed AMA much, but I've read from afar the same. Will I ever fully trust the France family? No, but I do think their interest in Sports car racing is genuine, dating back to '62 of course.

The fact remains, though, that the ALMS model, on it's own, wasn't going to work. Any business that relies on ANOTHER ENTITY to set it's rules can't work. In fact, it might be the dumbest idea ever, short of a certain "vision." And it's even worse given the sometimes arbitrary nature of the ACO.

As to the dumbing down issue, IFFF they keep GTE and integrate P2, what's the problem? P1 is DEAD in this country, subject solely to the whims of mftrs., another futile business model in 2012.

Now, if they go back on their words and we end up w/ only slightly tricked-up DPs and the GA GT spec, then you'll be 100% right. Trust but verify.

BTW: ACO approves. (http://www.racer.com/aco-backs-grand-amalms-merger/article/257628/)

[Rus'L]

I have a feeling this won't end well.....

but I'll hold out hope for a while.

You have a better chance holding out for Hope Solo.

[Rus'L]

No, not unreasonable frustration at all. Unlike open wheel or motorcycles, I have zero emotional or monetary investment in sports car racing. But I do have eyes, ears and a long memory.

I just find it amusing that so many listen to the cheery BS of a press conference but always fail to remember past outcomes. EVERY single time the Daytona Mafia has bought, merged or partnered with anyone, its all smiles and platitudes. And within a short time, what emerges is only the France family or their handpicked stooges still standing. Anyone seen Buddy Jobe lately? :laugh:

More recently, how about when DMG took over motorcycle racing from the AMA? They had the usual upbeat press conference, made all the nice assurances to the racers and the fans, hell Jim France and Rodger Edmonson even asked for suggestions! Then they promptly turned around and ignored everyone and did exactly as they pleased. If you didn't like it, well tough. You either knuckle under or you are GONE. (and there sure are a LOT of folks GONE...got crowd?? Got all 4 Japanese factories????)

It's sheer lunacy to think this time will be different. But all the usual suspects here are already setting themselves up for failure/disappointment: "Hey, I'll try a bite of that sheet sammich"!

I'll spell it out for you in as simple and as plain of language as I can: The France family is all about the France family. Its always been their way or the highway. There will be no "hands across the water" with the FIA or the ACO. Very soon you won't be seeing 'Mericun sports car drivers go to Europe. (just like you no longer see any 'Mericun riders go to MotoGP or WSBK) When Master France owns you, you only work on HIS plantation. Mark my words; either Scott Atherton becomes a good little toady or he disappears. Hell, do you really think a former plantation owner like Dr. Don will still be on the board in 2 years? 5 years?

History. You either learn from it :cool: or repeat it. :cry:

This.

[Rogue Leader]

See, I actually share some of your concern, esp. in NASCAR/Daytona controlling too much in American racing. Never followed AMA much, but I've read from afar the same. Will I ever fully trust the France family? No, but I do think their interest in Sports car racing is genuine, dating back to '62 of course.

The fact remains, though, that the ALMS model, on it's own, wasn't going to work. Any business that relies on ANOTHER ENTITY to set it's rules can't work. In fact, it might be the dumbest idea ever, short of a certain "vision." And it's even worse given the sometimes arbitrary nature of the ACO.

As to the dumbing down issue, IFFF they keep GTE and integrate P2, what's the problem? P1 is DEAD in this country, subject solely to the whims of mftrs., another futile business model in 2012.

Now, if they go back on their words and we end up w/ only slightly tricked-up DPs and the GA GT spec, then you'll be 100% right. Trust but verify.

BTW: ACO approves. (http://www.racer.com/aco-backs-grand-amalms-merger/article/257628/)

ACO Approves and Panoz says in the article P1 is done. Not surprising.

[Gnam]

from the Racer article:

"We are American-based and this series we are putting together is an American sports car series, and we need to take care of our own market."

-Don Panoz

Sounds like :tony:.

They say the P2 cars will be allowed to race if they are slowed down so they don't run over the DPs. What about LMPC cars, are they slower or faster than a DP?

I am also curious if just the current P2 cars will be allowed to compete, or if a current DP owner could switch to a P2 car.

Does NASCAR get kick backs on the DP chasiss parts like the Dallara/IndyCar racket?

[opinionated ow]

thanks goodness for short track else there would be no american racing left worth being interested in.

[Rogue Leader]

Sounds like :tony:.

They say the P2 cars will be allowed to race if they are slowed down so they don't run over the DPs. What about LMPC cars, are they slower or faster than a DP?

I am also curious if just the current P2 cars will be allowed to compete, or if a current DP owner could switch to a P2 car.

Does NASCAR get kick backs on the DP chasiss parts like the Dallara/IndyCar racket?

P2? I'm pretty sure the ALMS GT cars are as fast as if not faster than the DP's IIRC....

[extramundane]

P2? I'm pretty sure the ALMS GT cars are as fast as if not faster than the DP's IIRC....

This was posted elsewhere- haven't verified that times are correct but it sounds right.

Mid Ohio qualifying this year:
P1: 1:11.019
P2: 1:13:230
PC: 1:15.107
DP: 1:18.079
ALMS GT: 1:19.298
GA GT: 1:25.083
GTC: 1:25.130

The obvious solution is to speed DP & PC up to P2 level. Which means they'll do the opposite.

[Gnam]

Yes. Making cars better is always the right choice. But, is it possible to speed up a DP by 5 seconds?

Current horsepower levels:
P2 - 450 hp
PC - 430 hp
DP - 500 hp

Current weight minimums:
P2 - 2,028 lbs
PC - 2,000 lbs
DP - 2,275 lbs

If they cut the DP weight, but left the horsepower the same, it might be close. How much weight could you take out of a DP car before it started to go wobbly?

[stroker]

P2? I'm pretty sure the ALMS GT cars are as fast as if not faster than the DP's IIRC....

F1000 is faster than DP, at least at Road America.

[extramundane]

Yes. Making cars better is always the right choice. But, is it possible to speed up a DP by 5 seconds?

Current horsepower levels:
P2 - 450 hp
PC - 430 hp
DP - 500 hp

Current weight minimums:
P2 - 2,028 lbs
PC - 2,000 lbs
DP - 2,275 lbs

If they cut the DP weight, but left the horsepower the same, it might be close. How much weight could you take out of a DP car before it started to go wobbly?

Good question.

Several years ago, a DP team member said that if they ran on tires comparable to P1/P2 compounds, that alone would knock off a couple seconds off the LMP/DP gap at Laguna & Mid-O. There's supposedly some room to play in the engine as well. And frankly, I don't care what they do to the P cars (since this is going to be a mess of a class anyway) as long as ALMS GT isn't slowed down.

[Rogue Leader]

Good question.

Several years ago, a DP team member said that if they ran on tires comparable to P1/P2 compounds, that alone would knock off a couple seconds off the LMP/DP gap at Laguna & Mid-O. There's supposedly some room to play in the engine as well. And frankly, I don't care what they do to the P cars (since this is going to be a mess of a class anyway) as long as ALMS GT isn't slowed down.

I agree on the DP's, I'm pretty sure there isn't much room to reduce the weight thanks to the "safety cage" shape etc. But they could definitely squeeze more HP out of em, 500 is not that much.

If they want to keep the ACO link they won't touch the ALMS GT cars.

[Gnam]

If they want to keep the ACO link they won't touch the ALMS GT cars.

That's a big IF. I wonder if the new series will leave room in their schedule for teams to race at Le Mans, or schedule events on either side of the race weekend, forcing the teams to choose between a series championship and a single race.

[Rogue Leader]

That's a big IF. I wonder if the new series will leave room in their schedule for teams to race at Le Mans, or schedule events on either side of the race weekend, forcing the teams to choose between a series championship and a single race.

They said specifically they are looking to keep the link and as well make sure their top teams earn spots at the 24. Based on that it should be ok....

[TRDfan]

Greg Pickett from Muscle Milk - "We don't have to drive spaceships around"
and "There's a danger in dumbing down"


More here:

http://www.racer.com/pickett-im-not-going-dp-racing/article/257861/

[cameraman]

He is correct in that you are never going to fill a field with cars that cost what Audi & Peugeot spent and prototurtles are far too dumbed down. There is a vast difference between the two and someone with a brain should be able to designate a set of classes between those two extremes.

[manic mechanic]

This was posted elsewhere- haven't verified that times are correct but it sounds right.

Mid Ohio qualifying this year:
P1: 1:11.019
P2: 1:13:230
PC: 1:15.107
DP: 1:18.079
ALMS GT: 1:19.298
GA GT: 1:25.083
GTC: 1:25.130

The obvious solution is to speed DP & PC up to P2 level. Which means they'll do the opposite.

A quote from a GA driver at Seca in 2008:

"Burt, is this DP the fastest car you have driven around here?"

<Burt Friselle> "Nope... a Star Mazda is faster than these DP cars around here.." :laugh:

NOTE TO GIL CAMPBELL, THE BRUGGENTHIES FAMILY, AND OTHER OWNERS OF THE GREAT, INDEPENDENT race tracks of the US and Canada...

A "world class" sports car should be FASTER than a Star Mazda!!!

Atherton needs to put his foot down on specifications, and make the top class of American Sports cars more capable than a 3rd tier open wheel series car on the best tracks in this country to make a product worth attending live.

On that point: Did any of you tune in to GA at Seca last weekend? It looked EMPTY!!! (even in comparison to the ALMS events there the last 4 years)... THAT'S NOT GOOD!!!

IMHO, NASCAR NEEDS US!!!!:shakehead: because without an audience, sportscar racing in the US will die.
The big question is whether they can find the synapses to make it worth what it costs to attend an event. :confused:

[opinionated ow]

Scott Elkins asked on twitter for ideas. He was less than appreciative of mine:
Cars: LMP1, LMP2, LMPC, LMGTE (kill the prototurtles and make Grand-AM GT the top class in the Continental Challenge)
Races: Daytona 24 Hour, Sebring 12 Hour, Road America 500, Petit Le Mans, Watkins Glen 6 Hour, Laguna Seca 6 Hour, Mosport 1000km, New England Grand Prix (Lime Rock), Virginia International Raceway 3 hour, Mont Tremblant 2 Hour, Portland 3 Hour, Miller Motorsport Park 3 Hour, Circuit of the Americas 9 Hour, Barber 3 Hour.

Apparently that wasn't a merger but a "take over"

[Rogue Leader]

Scott Elkins asked on twitter for ideas. He was less than appreciative of mine:
Cars: LMP1, LMP2, LMPC, LMGTE (kill the prototurtles and make Grand-AM GT the top class in the Continental Challenge)
Races: Daytona 24 Hour, Sebring 12 Hour, Road America 500, Petit Le Mans, Watkins Glen 6 Hour, Laguna Seca 6 Hour, Mosport 1000km, New England Grand Prix (Lime Rock), Virginia International Raceway 3 hour, Mont Tremblant 2 Hour, Portland 3 Hour, Miller Motorsport Park 3 Hour, Circuit of the Americas 9 Hour, Barber 3 Hour.

Apparently that wasn't a merger but a "take over"

Sounds perfectly reasonable to me.

[Lux Interior]

Looks like a trip to the six hours of Spa is going to be in order. :thumbup:

[Methanolandbrats]

A quote from a GA driver at Seca in 2008:

"Burt, is this DP the fastest car you have driven around here?"

<Burt Friselle> "Nope... a Star Mazda is faster than these DP cars around here.." :laugh:

NOTE TO GIL CAMPBELL, THE BRUGGENTHIES FAMILY, AND OTHER OWNERS OF THE GREAT, INDEPENDENT race tracks of the US and Canada...

A "world class" sports car should be FASTER than a Star Mazda!!!

Atherton needs to put his foot down on specifications, and make the top class of American Sports cars more capable than a 3rd tier open wheel series car on the best tracks in this country to make a product worth attending live.

On that point: Did any of you tune in to GA at Seca last weekend? It looked EMPTY!!! (even in comparison to the ALMS events there the last 4 years)... THAT'S NOT GOOD!!!

IMHO, NASCAR NEEDS US!!!!:shakehead: because without an audience, sportscar racing in the US will die.
The big question is whether they can find the synapses to make it worth what it costs to attend an event. :confused:

Sportscar racing will die? It is dead as of this merger. NASCAR is as dumb or dumber than IRL thinking ALMS fans will stand in line to watch DP Dumpsters. Pretty ****ing pathetic to think the best race at Road America in 2014 will be the Nationwide Race :gomer:

[Andrew Longman]

Sportscar racing will die? It is dead as of this merger. NASCAR is as dumb or dumber than IRL thinking ALMS fans will stand in line to watch DP Dumpsters. Pretty ****ing pathetic to think the best race at Road America in 2014 will be the Nationwide Race :gomer:

One of the best races every year on the Continent is NASCAR at the Glen. Did I just say that? I guess I did. It took me a long time to realize that though. A lot of that has to do with the speed of the track though. The lack of any slow corners is perfect for them. Other road courses, not so much.

I feel your pain.

I can only hope that the the new engine rules being talked about (V6 turbos for the DPs) will make them significantly faster. And that the P2 and whatever shows up as P1 is still above the DPs. And don't do anything to mess up the ALMS GT classes.

That would be a weekend I would spend time and money on.

[Methanolandbrats]

One of the best races every year on the Continent is NASCAR at the Glen. Did I just say that? I guess I did. It took me a long time to realize that though. A lot of that has to do with the speed of the track though. The lack of any slow corners is perfect for them. Other road courses, not so much.

I feel your pain.

I can only hope that the the new engine rules being talked about (V6 turbos for the DPs) will make them significantly faster. And that the P2 and whatever shows up as P1 is still above the DPs. And don't do anything to mess up the ALMS GT classes.

That would be a weekend I would spend time and money on.

YUp. Watched that on TeeVee. Nationwide race at RA was also awesome. I wish the cabs would add more road courses :thumbup: Oh ****, I think I just had a vision :gomer:. Is this the NASCAR masterplan? CAB and Sportscar double weekends on more road courses?

[Andrew Longman]

Is this the NASCAR masterplan? Maybe not totally crazy. They need SOME plan for growth and/or to stop the contractions. They toyed with Asia. Then Mexico. And Canada. Europe was a glimmer in some France's eye for a moment. And they can't really add any more race dates to a schedule that is too long (and expensive for teams) as it is. And they have utterly failed so far to attract the NA road racing fans.

The thing is a chunk of their core fans hate the road course races... but they aren't exactly thrilled with with the countless cookie cutter 1.5 mile races either. They may say they like them but it isn't showing up in the ratings and ticket booth.

The thing is ISC only own one road course.

[Rocketdoc]

Maybe they will get it right, I really doubt it but I'll at least watch to see what they come up with.

No, I believe that the devolution will continue.

I think the France's will determine what's good for them and make the rules. If anyone else wants to play, they'll have to make them the way the France's want them.

A bad time for sports car racing.

[Indy]

All we can do is wait. I will definitely make ALMS RA next year and I need to think about Sebring and the Petite, neither of which I have ever attended, then after that, who knows? Like Indy Car, they now have their chance to win me over. I am not optimistic, but I will have an open mind.

[Lux Interior]

I have been to Petit several times now and it is my favorite track for viewing. You can walk around the entire interior of the track and there are some terrific sight lines on account of the hills. Those Audi TDI P1 cars were just incredible to see live and up close. :thumbup:

Sadly, I do not think they will be back this year but you never know.

[Rogue Leader]

All we can do is wait. I will definitely make ALMS RA next year and I need to think about Sebring and the Petite, neither of which I have ever attended, then after that, who knows? Like Indy Car, they now have their chance to win me over. I am not optimistic, but I will have an open mind.

THIS

I'm not ready to condemn it just yet, however I do realize theres a good possibility of it sucking. BUT until it actually sucks I will reserve judgement and give it a shot.

[extramundane]

Paulie Poledance thinks it's Teh Awesome, so adjust accordingly.

[nissan gtp]

I have been to Petit several times now and it is my favorite track for viewing. You can walk around the entire interior of the track and there are some terrific sight lines on account of the hills. Those Audi TDI P1 cars were just incredible to see live and up close. :thumbup:

Sadly, I do not think they will be back this year but you never know.

agree, it's a great track to watch a race

[manic mechanic]

All we can do is wait. I will definitely make ALMS RA next year and I need to think about Sebring and the Petite, neither of which I have ever attended, then after that, who knows? Like Indy Car, they now have their chance to win me over. I am not optimistic, but I will have an open mind.

Mike, you know what you've seen, and what you've experienced... I also hope for the best, but knowing the "mismanagement group", I can hardly consider neutering a near world-class formula a step up. :shakehead

[Andrew Longman]

I got the below in an email from Lime Rock today. Seemed relevant here and somewhat amusing. I have to admit I kinda like their amateurish home made email marketing. Only a reasonably knowledgeable race fan would "get it" so I appreciate the effort.


With ALMS and Grand-Am merging in time for the 2014 sports car and prototype racing season, everyone’s been wondering, What kinds of cars and races are we going to see?

Currently, ALMS runs essentially carbon-fiber F1 cars with fenders, while Grand-Am is cool, thundering NASCAR V8s in sophisticated space-frames.

Well, Lime Rock Park’s intrepid racing detectives, armed with Freedom of Information Act paperwork, a combo magnifying-glass-and-Sherlock Holmes-cap “Fact Pak,” a working knowledge of computer-security encryption hacking, and the ability to bribe the cleaning ladies in both Daytona Beach and Atlanta, we’ve uncovered secret information...

The name of the series has, apparently, already been decided, according to a document we found in the shredder – it took us a week to tape it all back together, and we may not have gotten it totally correct – but it looks like it’ll be “Super And Fantastic Endurance Racing Because American Road Racing Is Excellent Racing.” Or, SAFER BARRIER, for short.

Speaking of endurance, in one memo we saw this: “The Glen’s 6 hours, Petit’s 10, Sebring’s 12 and Daytona’s and Le Mans’ 24 hours just aren’t gittin' 'er done. Endurance racing needs to be about real endurance; let’s make every race 36 hours long. Think of the potential hot dog sales!”

With these longer races, driver fatigue would be an issue. It’s therefor been decided that each team must have a minimum of 12 drivers. Look for a big uptick in racing school enrollments over the next 18 months...

In an email we came across, it seems the new group has committed itself to 17-speed gearboxes. “As we’ve seen the passenger car manufacturers go from 2- and 3-speed transmissions to 4-, 5-, 6- and now 8-speed boxes, we need to prove we are way out in front of this. Besides, Macks and Peterbuilts already have a lot of gears, right?”

Of course, powertrains and fuels have been a big, big question mark. ALMS encourages alternative fuels and hybrids, where Grand-Am is conventional. The technical papers and proposed rulebook we dug up show a plan for 2014 that emulates the old Can-Am days; the rule book explicitly states, “Run whatcha brung!” However, it appears the new series will provide major weight-breaks for “three-cylinder two-strokes” and “plug-in electrics utilizing discarded lithium-ion laptop computer batteries. You know, all the ones that used to spontaneously combust.” We guess the actual wording of the rules is going to be tweaked.

In terms of chassis types, organizers are close to deciding that in the “interest of low cost and planet friendliness, chassis shall be made solely of balsa wood and recycled Dr. Pepper bottles.”

So there you have it, a thumbnail sketch of 2014’s prototype racing.

You don’t have to thank us, by the way. It’s enough if you buy a ticket to this month’s Grand-Am Championship Weekend at Lime Rock Park presented by BMW, September 28-29. Two years from now, you’ll be glad you witnessed the beginning of the end of an era – and the start of an exciting new one.

(If you don’t already know, no less than 11 season titles will be decided over the Grand-Am race weekend. The Daytona Prototypes – Rileys, Dallaras, Lolas and Corvettes powered by BMW, Porsche, Ford and Chevy engines – do battle at the same time with GT-class cars, fire-breathing Corvettes, Porsches, BMWs, Mustangs, Camaros and Mazda RX-8s. Also, the showroom stock cars in the popular Continental Tire Sports Car Challenge, where virtually every automaker is represented in the Grand Sport (GS) and Street Tuner (ST) classes, are here. Plus an all-new exciting exhibition race: The Total Performance Showcase "B-Spec" Series. Don't miss the Grand-Am Championship Weekend at Lime Rock Park presented by BMW.)

The ALMS/Grand-Am merger is good news for not only Lime Rock Park but more importantly, it’ll be good for you, the knowledgeable road racing fan. We’re pumped about the prospect of a strong, economically viable and exciting prototype and sports car series that should – will – raise sports car racing’s long-term public awareness and marketability.

Think fast!
Spies Like Us

[Gnam]

:D:thumbup:

Thanks for sharing that.

[Agip27]

They'll take the entry list numbers of 2012 and go from there. Obviously LMP1 & LMP2 will be dropped. Scott Tucker will be pissed, but he should be in jail by than anyways. ;)

They should run a "DP" class with massive amount of HP increase as the top series and call it GTP (ACO will intro that class for Le Mans, like they did in 80's). Run GT (ALMS Style), G/A GT as GTC (which is what is basically it is) for Porsche Cup Cars, Audi R8's, Camaro's etc and LMPC.

GTP (DP on a diet and steroid)
GT (ALMS & Current WEC Rules)
LMC (ALMS rules)
GTC (Mix Grand-Am GT & ALMS GTC).

[Rogue Leader]

They'll take the entry list numbers of 2012 and go from there. Obviously LMP1 & LMP2 will be dropped. Scott Tucker will be pissed, but he should be in jail by than anyways. ;)

They should run a "DP" class with massive amount of HP increase as the top series and call it GTP (ACO will intro that class for Le Mans, like they did in 80's). Run GT (ALMS Style), G/A GT as GTC (which is what is basically it is) for Porsche Cup Cars, Audi R8's, Camaro's etc and LMPC.

GTP (DP on a diet and steroid)
GT (ALMS & Current WEC Rules)
LMC (ALMS rules)
GTC (Mix Grand-Am GT & ALMS GTC).

Lets hope. Thats one thing that twists me every time I watch an ALMS race. That that criminal is still out there running.

[Methanolandbrats]

Get rid of LMP2

Run LMP 1 as the top class (Porsech is buildin one in 2014)
Run GT with ALMS rules
Run DP as the entry level, gentleman racer class

This would increase the prototype grid and maintain ACO ties. Of course this will not happen.

[Agip27]

There is no one running LMP2. What was there, 2 teams and 3 cars this year and one single team last year? :shakehead

[Andrew Longman]

They should run a "DP" class with massive amount of HP increase ...Word too is that the spec for the DP tire has been for crap. An upgrade or some tire competition in the DP class would likely cut several seconds at most tracks.

But to your point, going to a V6turbo format would align them with many other series allow them to dial up as much power as they need -- even race track to race track -- while also more easily adjusting engine life and cost to the economic conditions of the sport.

[Trevor Longman]

LMP2 will stay. Its already been said. LMP2 is a cheaper and faster formula than the current DP regulations, plus there is a demand for it out there. Thats a more universal formula that I could easily see a few DP teams moving towards in a combined series. The question becomes whether it remains as a Pro/Am class as it is now or a full Pro class. In a series in which LMP2 is the top class fighting for overall honors at Daytona, Sebring and Petit, it would be hard to see the top class being driven by amateurs.

I see no problem with LMP2 as the top class, to me LMP1 (as impressive as the cars are) is a dying class. The factories are too involved with the WEC that they're not investing any money into an ALMS program. That leaves the privateers and lets be honest theres not exactly as waiting list of teams lining up to run privateer LMP1's. Sure I would love to see Audi, Toyota and Porsche going for the overall at Daytona but without a full season commitment from at least 2 of them I don't see this new series putting in the effort to support a class with 3 cars.

[chop456]

Merge the cars and tech specs from ALMS with NASCAR's willingness to prop up a series nobody watches. :thumbup:

[Trevor Longman]

Merge the cars and tech specs from ALMS with NASCAR's willingness to prop up a series nobody watches. :thumbup:

:rofl: :laugh: +1

[NismoZ]

Still think they could dump NASCAB 800hp motors in those crates, increase speeds, draw the better drivers and be WAAAY more $$$ efficient (than P1) while doing it. Be the closest thing to Can Am since...well, the original Can Am! Maybe?

[stroker]

Still think they could dump NASCAB 800hp motors in those crates, increase speeds, draw the better drivers and be WAAAY more $$$ efficient (than P1) while doing it. Be the closest thing to Can Am since...well, the original Can Am! Maybe?

They'd need to regulate the wings and downforce.

[pfc_m_drake]

It's certainly worth exploring all of your ideas on how to grow the series. There is one problem: All of your ideas are predicated on the assumption that the governing body of the series *wants* to see growth and success. With the buyout/merger/takeover, I'm not so sure that assumption is true.

[Gnam]

Grand Am cares what you think. :gomer: They are holding a contest to name the new merged series. Prizes include a trip to next years Daytona 24 or the 12 hours of Sebring. If you win shouldn't you get to go to both?

http://www.namethefuture.com/

How about America's Grand Am Got Talent?

[Gnam]

Last week a Nissan P2 car ran at Daytona during a Grand Am test event.

http://auto-racing.speedtv.com/article/grand-am-conquest-p2-car-completes-daytona-test/

http://s11.postimage.org/rrleumlfn/1122868_article_img_large1.jpg

Sounds like they are trying to figure out how to shoehorn a P2 car into Grand Am's world. :shakehead

[Gnam]

Scott Atherton says the class structure and technical regulations will be announced before the end of the year. Also, everyone on both sides of the merger is happy happy and things are going great.

http://auto-racing.speedtv.com/article/grand-am-2014-class-structure-being-finalized/

Temporary name of the merged series is: International Sports Car Auto Racing (ISCAR).

[NismoZ]

Why not "National Association of Sports Car Auto Racing"? :gomer:

[Lux Interior]

It's going to be hard to swallow that an equivalent to LeMans Spec P2 car is going to have to be slower than Tony Stewart's Cup car:thumdown:

I sure hope that is not going to be the case.