WTF Fontana or whereverthe hell they are.

[Methanolandbrats]

I made dinner, watched some s***** football and these ****ers are still droning around. Is this a 2000 mile "race"? :confused:

[cameraman]

Only 500 but at the speeds they go it might seem like 2000.

[Trevor Longman]

Pretty uneventful outside of Power choking again and Sato once again proving to everyone that he can only drive 499 miles before stuffing a dallaradart in the fence

[manic mechanic]

Notes from one who attended:
As I said I would, I didn't pay a dime on tickets or pit passes... Every one of the "season ticket" holders got GA tix with their NASCAR seats, so there were a lot of "opportunists" who felt they could make a buck or two dispensing their "comps". :rofl: Most ended up giving the tickets to someone who had a measure of interest.

Main Point:
As anticipated, the EARL did a piss-poor job managing the track rental. They moved the autograph session, and shortened it to 1/2 hour with no advance warning to the fans, then they cut the line.
Adding to this, the IZOD staff was woefully prepared to deal with these conditions. THEY HAD NO IDEA WHAT THEY WERE IN FOR!!! It was 107 degrees out there, and you are gonna see some pizzed off people when they break the news to you "on the fly"...

The fan experience was substandard, and if I had run an event like this when I worked for the Inner Circle fan club I would have been dismissed immediately. :thumdown:

The race was boring (I left after ~110 laps). the cars lack any visual show of speed, and are still butt-ugly. Very little actual "racing" was taking place. I talked to a lot of people that loved CART and Champcar and were dissapointed with the DW12.

Same old BS, different promises behind their actions...

On the upside, I haven't seen so much "eye candy" since a NOPI event I wasn't supposed to be at...:D

Call me what you want, but I won't attend race day for those clowns (even if I get freebies) until someone gets a clue...

manic

[opinionated ow]

What's a MAVTV500?

[cameraman]

Mavtv is a cable television station. Not a good one either.
They sponsored the race.

[opinionated ow]

Katherine Legge's media people are dreadful. Nowhere in today's media release did they actually mention where she finished in the race or the points! :rolleyes:

[stroker]

The season is over.

Praise God.

[Andrew Longman]

The season is over.

Praise God.Zero mention of the race or championship in today's out of town edition of the NYT. About 1.5" of copy in the local WaPo. I was thinking about checking in on it my brother's cable (I'm visiting) provider doesn't carry NBCS.

More than the season is over.

[Indy]

I watched some of the race today on DVR. My conclusions: 1) Will Power has a serious self confidence problem on ovals and will probably never be champion, 2) 500 miles at those speeds at Fontana = boredom, 3) the television coverage is actually pretty good - not F1 good, but better than you would expect considering no one watches, and 4) the end of the race was exciting due to the good officiating of Beaux Barfield and RHR delivering in the end.

It's still not there, but perhaps 500 times better than the IRL under Boy George. I would almost consider giving them a chance next year, but the moron's hovering presence leads me to believe that his return to control is inevitable. So what's the point?

[TKGAngel]

Zero mention of the race or championship in today's out of town edition of the NYT. About 1.5" of copy in the local WaPo. I was thinking about checking in on it my brother's cable (I'm visiting) provider doesn't carry NBCS.

More than the season is over.

I think the race ended too late for most East Coast print deadlines.

As for the race itself, the one thing that stood out to me was the total raw emotion coming from Mrs. Power after her husband wrecked. That wasn't "oh expletive, his championship is over" emotion, that was "oh expletive, my husband is dead/injured/maimed in some way" emotion. I can't blame her for thinking that, as Power has been hurt badly on ovals before, but it was interesting to see.

[Racing Truth]

Boost speeds 10-15 mph there and it would have been perfect, IMHO. As it was, even w/ the red, it was, IIRC, 3 hrs. or a bit less from green-to-checkered. Not bad for a 500-miler, "slow" speeds or not.

Jaw dropped when Power spun. Thought for sure he wouldn't cost himself a title again. Yes, he's had bad luck on the ovals (Conway at Indy this yr. for example), but he's also made his own luck on them far too often.

I chuckled when Snider asked about fixing it. Sure enough...:eek:

Respect to RHR. Drove like a beast when needed to. He earned the title.

Carpenter sucks on twisties, but I'll give him this: he's legit on ovals, even w/o the uber-df.

EDIT: Yeah, crowd sucked. No surprise, but still.

[Methanolandbrats]

From the little I saw near the end (live and "highlights"), there were way too many wife shots. WGAF. If Frau Powers is stressed she should take a pay cut and marry a plumber. And I must add that RHR's desert rat wife has nice tits.

[Lux Interior]

This year was a big improvement over previous years for sure. The cars need to be about 225-230 going around there, not 209 or whatever it was. That's a big track with plenty of room to spread out and race. CART used to have some great races there. Same with MIS.

I remember seeing RHR win in Atlantics in Cleveland. He's a deserving champion. :thumbup:

[mapguy]

I wasted a Saturday night watching that. This is what we have as a top tier open wheel series here? Count me out. Those turds were painfully slow. Watching them accelerate after a restart was like watching a bus pull away from a stop. SSlllooowww.... Special Ed winning? They are still too easy to drive. Watching the cars rear ends bounce up and down I was waiting for dubstep music to start.

:thumdown:

[Andrew Longman]

I think the race ended too late for most East Coast print deadlines.Reported the USC loss and that ended later. The way papers are assembled these days, and the need to compete with 24/7 news outlets, they can get very late stuff in... if they see the need to. ;)

[Ed_Severson]

As for the race itself, the one thing that stood out to me was the total raw emotion coming from Mrs. Power after her husband wrecked. That wasn't "oh expletive, his championship is over" emotion, that was "oh expletive, my husband is dead/injured/maimed in some way" emotion.

No offense, but that's ********. Liz is both a lot smarter and a lot tougher than you give her credit for.

[TKGAngel]

No offense, but that's ********. Liz is both a lot smarter and a lot tougher than you give her credit for.

I honestly mean no disrespect to her both professionally and personally. I'm just saying that it was a very weird moment of body language and expression.

[Agip27]

The one positive thing is that they are moving forward. The Indycar people are hoping that all the CART fans die real soon. They are targeting new fans. They hope you guys all die or move to Belize....:laugh:

The TV is better then it was for at least 10-years. At least you know they wont cut away if a race runs long. Granted they have nothing else to show on NBC Sports, but still! The Indycar 36 program is a lot of fun and is introducing the drivers and teams to new fans, that kind of program was never a possibility with ESPN or even Speed.

The merchandising is better then it ever was. Back in the 80's, there was nothing. In the 90's there was only speedgear. Now with Izod & Lids you could buy shirts or hats for 3/4 of field gear if you want to. Like I said, moving forward!

The cars are slow and ugly. I do get offended when they use the 241 Speed Limit slogan; that's a bit of an insult for these cars that can't get to 220 on the track that produced the 241. I guess they're target uneducated fans.....:shakehead

I see Indycar moving forward and in 5-years it will be back to what it once was. F1 was junk for a good 15 years too (1992-2006 seasons) remember.

[Don Quixote]

I see Indycar moving forward and in 5-years it will be back to what it once was. F1 was junk for a good 15 years too (1992-2006 seasons) remember.:laugh: This has to be a parody.

[Methanolandbrats]

:laugh: This has to be a parody.

Or dementia :(

[Racing Truth]

I wasted a Saturday night watching that. This is what we have as a top tier open wheel series here? Count me out. Those turds were painfully slow. Watching them accelerate after a restart was like watching a bus pull away from a stop. SSlllooowww.... Special Ed winning? They are still too easy to drive. Watching the cars rear ends bounce up and down I was waiting for dubstep music to start.

:thumdown:

Yes, they're too slow for Fontana (15-20 mph more would be fine), but too easy? No. Read what Ed's written. If anything, they were scary tough in the heat.

[Rogue Leader]

I think the race ended too late for most East Coast print deadlines.

As for the race itself, the one thing that stood out to me was the total raw emotion coming from Mrs. Power after her husband wrecked. That wasn't "oh expletive, his championship is over" emotion, that was "oh expletive, my husband is dead/injured/maimed in some way" emotion. I can't blame her for thinking that, as Power has been hurt badly on ovals before, but it was interesting to see.

I really don't agree with that. His wreck was REALLY minor (enough that they were able to fix the car and get it back out), stuff like that doesn't bother her too much any more. However it is is 3rd near championship, only for it to be lost on an Oval again. Its gotta take a toll on him mentally. And I'm sure it goes beyond his racing life and into his personal life quite a bit.

[cameraman]

It sounds like the track is no longer in a condition to run much faster without insane amounts of down force just to account for the settling of the track. Since it is good enough for the cabs you know that nobody is going to spend a dime to smooth it out for IndyCar. It looks like it won't be a good open wheel track until it gets too rough for the cabs and they repave it.

[Elmo T]

:laugh: This has to be a parody.

Don't you know - proper merchandising will fix everything. Isn't that why they brought on Gene Simmons with his KISS merch credibility?

And just who are the new fans being targeted? :rolleyes:

[cameraman]

Since they have no intention of making the changes that would attract the CART fans it only makes sense that they would focus solely on attracting an entirely new fan base. Too bad that they don't seem to know how to do that either...

[High Sided]

Mavtv is a cable television station. Not a good one either.
They sponsored the race.

darn, i thunk it was MadTV :gomer:

[Racing Truth]

Since they have no intention of making the changes that would attract the CART fans it only makes sense that they would focus solely on attracting an entirely new fan base. Too bad that they don't seem to know how to do that either...

But that's the rub. Who are these potential "new fans?" What are the demographics, where are these people coming from? Current NASCAR fans? Good luck with that (BTW: A decent % of these folks are ex-IndyCar watchers, if not fans). Why are they coming back, minus a NASCAR implosion? They made their choice years ago, and whether I like it or not (I don't), NASCAR is the 9,000 lb. gorilla. Why are NASCAR fans gonna watch IndyCar?

And that's not insulting the very notion of IndyCar. The series could morph into what you all want (an updated CART, inc. management) and it won't bring in NEW fans. Speed, tech, etc. just don't matter as much to this demo. Otherwise, they're not NASCAR fans.

OK, fine, what about other fans? Where are these people coming from, en masse, and why aren't they motorsports fans already? What's going to turn them into race fans, w/o being NASCAR-centric? Wouldn't potential IndyCar fans at least follow motorsports already?

Now many will disagree w/ me here, but I think the on-track is demonstrably better this year. The 5 ovals were all fun to watch and challenging to drive. Belle Isle and Snoreoma aside, the r/s courses were surprisingly good. There's still a way to go- more power and better aesthetics (I'm not hung up on this, but a little "beautification" would be fine)- but I think it's on the way.

It also is irrelevant. We're in a post-Split, post-NASCAR rise world. On-track product, even if it was ideal, just doesn't matter anymore. You're not getting 2's or 3's on network TV for non-Indy races. Not happening.

You know, I read so many "brilliant" ideas on how to fix the sport, and I chuckle. Some of the ideas by themselves aren't bad (schedule balance, reduced costs, more hp), but taken together, they're totally underwhelming. They MIGHT turn a .35 into .50 TV rating (or a 4.2 for the 500 to a 4.6). Barely a blip, IMHO.

As to the former CART fans, let's be honest. You could get them all back on board and it wouldn't make a statistical difference. There just aren't many OW fans of either stripe left in the country anymore.

I think survival is priority #1, followed by (hopefully, but who knows) settling into a small, but sustainable niche. Then, maybe over time, people can gradually be won over. It just won't be like 20 yrs. ago.

[Chief]

But that's the rub. Who are these potential "new fans?"

Hehehhehe! Wadda you talking about? The IRL/ICS/IICS has an established fanbase that spans over 100 years. Indy sellsout every year...heck, Penske hisownself said if 50K didn't show no one would miss them.

What's the problem? This thing is headed in the right direction. That's what I was told....:thumbup:

[emjaya]

I honestly mean no disrespect to her both professionally and personally. I'm just saying that it was a very weird moment of body language and expression.

I didn't see her reaction to the crash until after I read your post, but I agree with you. There was more than disappointment there.

[Racing Truth]

Hehehhehe! Wadda you talking about? The IRL/ICS/IICS has an established fanbase that spans over 100 years. Indy sellsout every year...heck, Penske hisownself said if 50K didn't show no one would miss them.

What's the problem? This thing is headed in the right direction. That's what I was told....:thumbup:

Way to not read the rest of my post there. My point is this (thought I was clear, but evidently...): Even if you a) have better management, with no IMS tie (BTW: Who/what would this alternate management/ownership consist of? Just curious), b) better, purer, "beastier" cars and c) better venues (however you define that) RIGHT NOW, it would hardly make a ripple. Thinking that making it into something that you like (liked?) will begin to pave the road to resurrection is absurd at this point.

Yes, to be clear, I blame Tony George (along with the rise of NASCAR) for this state of affairs. I've just moved on from thinking that CART '95 numbers and popularity should be the goal. Put whoever you want in charge; it's still not achievable.

EDIT: All that aside, I DO think the on-track product is headed in the right direction.

[Chief]

Way to not read the rest of my post there. My point is this (thought I was clear, but evidently...

I got your point and I highlighted it. Rather than wonder where new fans will come from, you gloss over the fact that NO ONE is buying the product NOW (or before). That's the point you don't seem to acknowledge.

I makes ya wonder why IMS doesn't conduct a study into why fans have turned away....It's my guess that they don't want to waste money on something that is common knowledge. To everyone except them.

Therein lies the problem.

[Racing Truth]

I got your point and I highlighted it. Rather than wonder where new fans will come from, you gloss over the fact that NO ONE is buying the product NOW (or before). That's the point you don't seem to acknowledge.

I makes ya wonder why IMS doesn't conduct a study into why fans have turned away....It's my guess that they don't want to waste money on something that is common knowledge. To everyone except them.

Therein lies the problem.

I'm guessing even IMS knows why (I think Randy's referenced the lost split fans several times).

None of which answers the implied question: What would bring them back. Answer: Nothing, IMHO, not in large numbers anyhow.

[mapguy]

Yes, they're too slow for Fontana (15-20 mph more would be fine), but too easy? No. Read what Ed's written. If anything, they were scary tough in the heat.

Ed? Srsly? Ed? When isn't driving a race car scary tough for him?

[Chief]

Well, they had several opportunities in 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011 to heal the wounds and they took the high road everytime. Tony was so smug about winning ...and Randy refused to apologize for the whole sport and move forward. They blew up the bridge while stuck on the island. Brilliant.

So, they got what they gots. And I agree with you, nothing short of digging a big hole and burying it will help. RIP AOW racing. :shakehead

[Ed_Severson]

Ed? Srsly? Ed? When isn't driving a race car scary tough for him?

He's talking about me, not Mr. Carpenter.

[stroker]

Well, they had several opportunities in 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011 to heal the wounds and they took the high road everytime. Tony was so smug about winning ...and Randy refused to apologize for the whole sport and move forward. They blew up the bridge while stuck on the island. Brilliant.

So, they got what they gots. And I agree with you, nothing short of digging a big hole and burying it will help. RIP AOW racing. :shakehead

There is no one key demographic, there is a group of equally important demographics. But IMHO the one thing they absolutely must have is a nucleus of RABID fans for the series concept. However, the concept for what AOW used to be can't be what it must be in the future. Absolute speed at any cost is no longer a viable model. The teams can't afford it, the drivers can't survive it, the manufacturers can't market it and it's too big a liability for the series. They need a new concept that can still draw a nucleus of fans. Not even the 500 is what the concept used to be, so they can't even use that group as a nucleus. If they restored the 500 back to innovative technology and courageous, talented drivers they'll get the locals back but they need the national fans back or the 500 relegates itself for all time to a niche event. Thanks to FTG and the team owners they've pissed away the non-IMS fans through politics.

Politically, the one thing that must happen is the one thing that will never happen and that's IMS giving up control of the series. They need somebody (NOT the Frances) who is not paid by the H-G clan to run the series. The 500 can still be the Crown Jewel of the series, but they need a formula that is so ridiculously inexpensive that the Sprint Car and dirt track teams regard it as affordable. The Organizers have to understand how to take care of the promoters and tracks with decent fees and cross-supporting advertising. The car formula must be self-regulating in terms of cost yet still allow for technological innovation and reasonable speed. Higher speed will come with time. The cars have to be challenging to drive, entertaining to watch and interesting to discuss. That brings back the Teams, the Technology Fans and the Driver Fans. The series has to be diverse and professionally run with transparent, fairly applied rules. Once you get rabid fans ("Hey, Tim, why don't you grab your kids and let's go to the track this weekend. I'll show you something special...") then you can build up from butts on the hillsides into eyeballs on TV. Their audience is America so they need a product that Americans want. That means it's got to be:

1. Innovative
2. Egalitarian
3. Heroic

Until it meets those criteria they're wasting their time trying to develop whatever they've got. Oh, you say, what about Nascar? How is that Innovative or Egalitarian? My answer is that for at least 30 years Nascar was precisely those things. They built the program until it is virtually unassailable in its market domination. AOW, on the other hand, lost the plot and is now NONE of those three things. We need a clean sheet of paper but the selfish, myopic bastards at IMS aren't giving any out and nobody else with any pull gives enough of a crap to spend 30 years starting all over again. This is nothing new and has been posted hundreds if not thousands of times in the last 10 years.

Now we can all get back to the circular firing squad and bitching how everybody else's notion of how to get started won't work.

[opinionated ow]

easy engine solution: big block modified engines. Powerful, toquey, designed for alcohol, big three brand representation, simple to maintain, cheap, links to short track, can easily be air restricted to reduce power.

[G.]

I'll chime in, with my worthless opinion. :)

Same stuff I said maybe 5, 10 years ago.

Management
Marketing
Motors (just to keep the alliteration going)

Someone needs to buy it. Get it out of the hands of the hayseed idiots running the show. I actually thought the cowboy might be the way, but he's still under the HG thumb. There ain't no cowboy way.

Make every event THE PLACE to be. Pump metric sh**tons of money into every event. Pour elitism all over it. Stir. This is basically the opposite of what some are suggesting, but remember how we got here to begin with (Vizshuns 1.0). Do the opposite.

(Don't forget, my opinion is worthless. ;) )

Open the mutha lubbin specs! Set a limit, don't let drivers grater, but open the specs. Chassis, engine, whatever.


I figure, it will take about $400 mil over the next five years to get there.

Anybody know any really smart, really rich guys? Ones that want to make a stupid business decision for the luls and legacy?

No?

Alright, then start digging Chief's hole and bury it all. :laugh:

[DagoFast]

They need to keep doing EXACTLY what they are doing. Until they have finally bled off the largest possible amount of the family fortune and have devalued all of their assets to pennies on the dollar. :thumbup:

[mapguy]

He's talking about me, not Mr. Carpenter.

:facepalm: My apologies.

[Racing Truth]

Well, they had several opportunities in 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011 to heal the wounds and they took the high road everytime. Tony was so smug about winning ...and Randy refused to apologize for the whole sport and move forward. They blew up the bridge while stuck on the island. Brilliant.

So, they got what they gots. And I agree with you, nothing short of digging a big hole and burying it will help. RIP AOW racing. :shakehead

You know, I don't really disagree about Tony's handling of the aftermath. I think an apology from Randy, who had nothing to do with this whole thing, would have been pointless.

All that said, I'd like to draw you (and others, if they'd like) out on this a little. One, can I assume that, in '08, you would have wanted equipment other than the old Dallara used? Two, beyond a TG/IMS apology (I agree w/ that, BTW), what other steps should have been taken?

If they had followed such a course of action, where do you think the sport would be today? Quantify as best you can.

BTW: A relieved Miller says 30k for Sat., and is happy with that. (http://auto-racing.speedtv.com/article/miller-an-indycar-surprise-in-southern-california/P1) Hey, if the track is good w/ it, and they seem to be, then good enough for me.

[Methanolandbrats]

^^^ the sport would be exactly where it is now. CART was a popular leisure time activity with a huge fan base and that attracted big piles of money. Once Tony had his fit and turned it from a leisure time activity into a political debate, the fans and money left. Neither one is coming back.

[Racing Truth]

BTW: To G's ownership point: Who else would, and is in a position to, buy the thing from IMS/H-G family? No, saying "anybody but..." isn't good enough.

[stroker]

Per Robin Miller:

"If you didn’t like the MAVTV 500, then you probably need to find another sport to watch."

Fine. I'll find something else. I had watched for about 30 minutes and when they red-flagged the race I turned it off.

[G.]

Per Robin Miller:

"If you didn’t like the MAVTV 500, then you probably need to find another sport to watch."

Fine. I'll find something else. I had watched for about 30 minutes and when they red-flagged the race I turned it off.

What was the red flag for?

Please explain with the official reasoning, and the conspiratorial theory. Show your work. :p
(seriously, what was the deal? Anyone?)


BTW: To G's ownership point: Who else would, and is in a position to, buy the thing from IMS/H-G family? No, saying "anybody but..." isn't good enough.
In my Walter Mitty moments, it comes to mind to be someone that has a burning need to leave things better than when they found it - for the children. At the expense of his own childrens' inheritance. :D

Penske, Forsythe, Bill Gates, Warren Buffett, Jimmy Buffet, Krusty the clown, whomever. Ain't gonna happen, so have fun with it!

In my Art Bell moments, it's the Bilderberg Core Group. And the Masons. Gotta be Masons.

[SteveH]

Per Robin Miller:

"If you didn’t like the MAVTV 500, then you probably need to find another sport to watch."



Once ratings come out Robin will find that we already have.

[stroker]

What was the red flag for?

Kanaan stuffed it into the wall and Barfield wanted a green flag for the end of the race so he red-flagged it until they could clean up the mess.

[Chief]

All that said, I'd like to draw you (and others, if they'd like) out on this a little. One, can I assume that, in '08, you would have wanted equipment other than the old Dallara used? Two, beyond a TG/IMS apology (I agree w/ that, BTW), what other steps should have been taken?

If they had followed such a course of action, where do you think the sport would be today? Quantify as best you can.

Kalkhoven's complete capitulation ended the CART/CCWS legacy. IF there was even a CART/CCWS car allowed to compete in the IRL it would have made it easier. I felt WE were treated like second class citizens...and in many cases we were. That inequity chased me away. And, to race under the IRL banner was humiliating and unpaletable....KK et al sold US OUT. It was (to me), that simple.

I was hopeful that when TG left and Randy came in things would change...but it didn't. And now they have exhausted the last of their non-existant limited ideas.

If there are fans like me out there, we ain't coming back. We never liked the IRL, it's cars, NOTHING about it. It's still the IRL today just under IICS banner. So, it's dead to me. I derive great entertainment in it's demise.

I'd also add that the death of Dan Wheldon cast a doubt upon this series, and it's impact can be felt in the regular 0.18 TV ratings now. (BTW, 225K watched Fontana). I theorize fans walked away because of the ineptitude that caused Dan's death. And in an ugly car by compromise of non-racing folks, moronic leadership and you got deathblow. All of their own doing...

[Racing Truth]

What was the red flag for?

Please explain with the official reasoning, and the conspiratorial theory. Show your work. :p
(seriously, what was the deal? Anyone?)


In my Walter Mitty moments, it comes to mind to be someone that has a burning need to leave things better than when they found it - for the children. At the expense of his own childrens' inheritance. :D

Penske, Forsythe, Bill Gates, Warren Buffett, Jimmy Buffet, Krusty the clown, whomever. Ain't gonna happen, so have fun with it!

In my Art Bell moments, it's the Bilderberg Core Group. And the Masons. Gotta be Masons.

The red was at Beaux's discretion, as he publicly discussed two months ago. Basically, if a yellow comes out with 5 or more to go, he won't be afraid to go immediately red.

In terms of ownership, that's my point. Penske is, IIRC, in his 80's (doesn't look it, but nevermind), so I can't imagine him buying it and running it now. I'd rather have IMS in charge than any of the other non-Penske owners. Call me a :gomer: if you will. As for Forsythe, :laugh::laugh::laugh::rofl:.

Seriously, that seems to leave NASCAR/ISC or SMI as viable options. God help me if Bruton Smith gets anywhere near running IndyCar (sprinklers on road courses!). And the NASCAR/ISC option brings us back to the "Daytona running all of American motorsports" problem. If some other viable buyer shows up, I'm more than ready for it

Maybe Chief's right: Just bury it now. But if that's what you want, know this: You're permanently (or for multiple generations anyhow) ceding ALL pro racing in this country to Daytona Beach. I know, there's always F1. That's great and all. Just not enough for me. And the thought of eventual complete atrophying US racing in such a scenario kind of sobers me.

More on Chief's ^^^post tomorrow. Gotta go now.

[Agip27]

The funny bit about the race is that when Sato crashed {sigh} on the last lap (again!), I think Francheesee was ahead of Mr.Ed.

I was pulling for Mike Situation from Jersey Shores (Castroneves) to pass RHR, but thanks to Sato crashing AGAIN on the last lap that didn't happen.....It would have been cool if Situation would have passed RHR, and RHR would have finished ahead of Sato by a tuna roll.

[Indy]

With a fresh perspective tonight, I am wondering why we are talking about this. Not to offend anyone, or to be critical, but why does anyone who has no further interest in the series care to comment on it? I dare say everyone in this thread will come back eventually.

And Racing Truth, what was required was cover for pride and ego. An apology, maybe, but something that said, you fans are right, we sucked, and now we are going to make it better (we WERE right, by the way). If that simple thing, which would have cost nothing, had been done, we would not be having this conversation. And guess what? For all the people who continue to obsess over it, it's not too late.

[Indy]

And by the way, Barfield is the best thing to ever happen to them. He is the real deal, has the right instincts, and is even able to own up to his mistakes. This is ****ing rare, IMO. The red flag was completely appropriate and a tribute to the poor souls who actually sat in those stands all evening.

[Chief]

Maybe Chief's right: Just bury it now. But if that's what you want, know this: You're permanently (or for multiple generations anyhow) ceding ALL pro racing in this country to Daytona Beach.

The day IMS allowed NASCAR across the 'sacred' bricks, THAT was the day they signed it over to the Daytona mafia. And again, IMS did it all on their own.

All that whining about 'Jeff Gordon' being turned away to NASCAR and Tony Stewart eventually not staying in the Crapwagons is all the world really needed to know about where ALL pro racing was headed. Hard to believe Juan Montoya, Sam Hornish and Danica Hospenthal are still there after the placenta was after-birthed in the Indy Car series in 2012.

Seriously, what is interesting in Indy Car? It's dead, isn't it...I know so. :thumbup:

[manic mechanic]

I really don't agree with that. His wreck was REALLY minor (enough that they were able to fix the car and get it back out), stuff like that doesn't bother her too much any more. However it is is 3rd near championship, only for it to be lost on an Oval again. Its gotta take a toll on him mentally. And I'm sure it goes beyond his racing life and into his personal life quite a bit.

I talked to Will on Friday and asked if he had found a line he liked: His response; "Yeah, about five of 'em".

Trust a local who has driven that section of track: He caught the upper edge of the "bump" PT found when he tested that place in '96. Why track owners don't fix it once and for all defies me. ISC has the money, they just have no motivation to do the job for us here on the left coast. :shakehead

[Agip27]

Manic, Sato hit the same spot on the final lap.

[manic mechanic]

Manic, Sato hit the same spot on the final lap.

dude, by that time I was home... the race was so boring I didn't last past lap112, and even though I have NBCSNHD at home, I didn't bother to tune in for the rest (or record it).

All you are saying is that Sato needs the same track instruction that Will does.

big question: WERE YOU THERE??? :confused:

[Andrew Longman]

...why does anyone who has no further interest in the series care to comment on it? I dare say everyone in this thread will come back eventually.Only one of many possibilities.

Other possibilities equally likely in the absence of other evidence:

-- We are maladjusted, substance-abusing shut ins with no other interests or social life

-- We earlier contaminated our children with a nostalgic love for proper racing and we are hanging on to keep up a good front -- i.e., we are doing it for the kids

-- We just enjoy each others company having collective bitched about this **** since 1996 but coming to also value shared insights into smoking meats, aerospace engineering, history, movies, divorce, death, technology, whatever.

But specifically, the sport is so far from getting me excited -- and this is from a guy who used to put almost no priority against getting to a race I wanted to get to and never missed a chance to watch a race on TV since 1969. Literally.

Frankly, I am going to a Modified race in SLC on Saturday night with Trevor I am more excited about that than I have been for any race this year.

[opinionated ow]

Frankly, I am going to a Modified race in SLC on Saturday night with Trevor I am more excited about that than I have been for any race this year.
Are you going to super dirt week in syracuse?

[gjc2]

-- We are maladjusted, substance-abusing shut ins with no other interests or social life

That's me.

I keep hoping something will change.

On a few occasions over the last couple decades I’ve thought to myself “who am I punishing” was I punishing TG? Maybe I should give them another chance. Other than following the I500 I can’t get in to the rest of the season.

[TravelGal]

Did someone say Belize? :)

[Racing Truth]

Folks, I think we have a TRULY historic moment here!


The day IMS allowed NASCAR across the 'sacred' bricks, THAT was the day they signed it over to the Daytona mafia. And again, IMS did it all on their own.

All that whining about 'Jeff Gordon' being turned away to NASCAR and Tony Stewart eventually not staying in the Crapwagons is all the world really needed to know about where ALL pro racing was headed. Hard to believe Juan Montoya, Sam Hornish and Danica Hospenthal are still there after the placenta was after-birthed in the Indy Car series in 2012.

Seriously, what is interesting in Indy Car? It's dead, isn't it...I know so. :thumbup:

Chief and hard-line, old-school TFers in agreement! If you live long enough, I suppose.;);)

[Agip27]

big question: WERE YOU THERE??? :confused:

I would have gone, but had other plans I couldn't get out of. It's been a while since I've seen an oval indycar race (maybe 2002, 2003 or 2004?) and it would have been fun to go for a night race. Nothing compares to the 1998 race where I was in turn 4 (low rows) and the Champcars looked like fighter jets passing by. Wow, that was a thrill! :D Ranks right up there with the feeling you get from watching an F1 car accelerate out of a corner. You feel the speed and power. :thumbup:

The DW12 IRL cars are closer to an Indy Lights car then the late 90 CART cars, but still nice to see one race in close to 10 years.

[Racing Truth]

1. Kalkhoven's complete capitulation ended the CART/CCWS legacy. IF there was even a CART/CCWS car allowed to compete in the IRL it would have made it easier. I felt WE were treated like second class citizens...and in many cases we were. That inequity chased me away. And, to race under the IRL banner was humiliating and unpaletable....KK et al sold US OUT. It was (to me), that simple.

2. I was hopeful that when TG left and Randy came in things would change...but it didn't. And now they have exhausted the last of their non-existant limited ideas.

If there are fans like me out there, we ain't coming back. We never liked the IRL, it's cars, NOTHING about it. It's still the IRL today just under IICS banner. So, it's dead to me. I derive great entertainment in it's demise.

3. I'd also add that the death of Dan Wheldon cast a doubt upon this series, and it's impact can be felt in the regular 0.18 TV ratings now. (BTW, 225K watched Fontana). I theorize fans walked away because of the ineptitude that caused Dan's death. And in an ugly car by compromise of non-racing folks, moronic leadership and you got deathblow. All of their own doing...

1(a). Sorry, but on some level, this is you, self-importantly, saying "Wahhhhhhhhhhh, my fee-fees were hurt!" Such a delicate soul. Seriously, "YOU" were disrespected by the end result of a merger/buyout? Really?

1(b). To the extent that it goes beyond this, let's look at this. While no one "won" the war, one side, as you point out, sold out to the other (BTW: They're not bad people for doing so. In fact, they were being sensible, from a business POV). Much as I hated it, the Dallara's were established and had a much higher number of produced chassis. This was going to end no other way.

As for "equivalency formula," as much as RMiller talks about, they tend to be a nightmare to enforce and not worth it, IMHO.

The big mistake was in not getting a new car earlier. Part of that is on TG/BB, a smaller part on the owners worried about $.

2. We're going to forever disagree on this. To me, anyone who thinks this IICS is "just like the old IRL" WANTS to believe that, empirical evidence be damned. We're likely going to have a Triple Crown of 500-milers next yr. Think THAT would have happened under the TG-led IRL?

3. Really? We went from .3s and .4s to .2s and .3s. Statistical noise, more likely caused by the Vs.-NBCSN name change (network actually lost overall viewers) and, perhaps, no Danica. Find me any fan who walked away after Wheldon. Just one.

In short, you've got nothin' (or very little) concrete to point to, IMHO.

[Chief]

Perhaps....but I know what enticed me to AOW in the beginning and the IRL was not it. It was a replacement leegUe with replacement wankers, and frankly that impression has never left me. It still is today what it's always been.

Call it 'waaaah' or whining, doesn't matter to me. I would have given my right arm to see/be with/have anything to do with this sport. Not any more. And, I can only speak for myself about what I feel and offer my opinion. The leegUe is a piece of crap now. Just as it always has been.

Danica? The perennial never-has-been soft porn model? Your series is in a load of trouble if that was the only thing it had going for it. Really? Ratings cut in half because she was gone and folks were too stoopid to find VersUs (on the same channel location, just with a new name)? Dood, do you make your own crack?

[Racing Truth]

Perhaps....but I know what enticed me to AOW in the beginning and the IRL was not it. It was a replacement leegUe with replacement wankers, and frankly that impression has never left me. It still is today what it's always been.

Call it 'waaaah' or whining, doesn't matter to me. I would have given my right arm to see/be with/have anything to do with this sport. Not any more. And, I can only speak for myself about what I feel and offer my opinion. The leegUe is a piece of crap now. Just as it always has been.

Danica? The perennial never-has-been soft porn model? Your series is in a load of trouble if that was the only thing it had going for it. Really? Ratings cut in half because she was gone and folks were too stoopid to find VersUs (on the same channel location, just with a new name)? Dood, do you make your own crack?

"Cut in half" is a stretch. Even I'll admit it's like going from 2 to 1. On NBCSN, yes, their ratings AS A WHOLE are down from Vs. NBC kinda botched the relaunch (they only averaged, IIRC, a 1.0 for their Olympic coverage.).

[mapguy]

-- We just enjoy each others company having collective bitched about this **** since 1996 but coming to also value shared insights into smoking meats, aerospace engineering, history, movies, divorce, death, technology, whatever.



Pants, don't forget the pants.

[gerhard911]

And bacon, it's all aboot the bacon :p

But if Clabber Girl ever gets into the bacon business, stay away. Far, far away. :yuck:

[Indy]

On a few occasions over the last couple decades I’ve thought to myself “who am I punishing” was I punishing TG? Maybe I should give them another chance. Other than following the I500 I can’t get in to the rest of the season.

I know the feeling. I go back and forth over it. Seeing Ryan win softened me up a bit. I remember being at M-O in 2004, cheering for Stefan's team.

But then I spend time with Spicoli, and I am in full hater mode again. :gomer:

[manic mechanic]

"Cut in half" is a stretch. Even I'll admit it's like going from 2 to 1. On NBCSN, yes, their ratings AS A WHOLE are down from Vs. NBC kinda botched the relaunch (they only averaged, IIRC, a 1.0 for their Olympic coverage.).

Guys, you need to quit "dick-swinging" on the issue and pay attention to the facts..

RT, you are the "eternal optomist" who was tired of the war the day it began.

Chief, you have been a stalwart from day one.. Many times what you have "prophecized" has come true in spades.

Mike, You are like me, but I had that period of being "directly involved" that makes me a bit less receptive to the governing bodies' pursuit of the honest dollar.

In many ways, IICS is better than it was 2-3 years ago.

Is it where it should be for those of us who have been there since the pre-CART days... Don't fool yourself.

Is it where/what it was in CART days? Don't even ATTEMPT to fool yourselves. WE know what it was.. We know what we enjoyed about the era... Differrent things for different people.

Champcar was a "salvage" idea... It got a LOT of people more passionate about the sport, and tied CART's legacy to an american icon that transcended Indy: The Vanderbilt Cup.

Judge it how you may, but it was/is the last bastion of American racing that isn't outright owned by either ISC or Indy left on the continent (I'm not sure if it was bought up in the amalgamation, hence the reason for the slash) .

The EARL as a whole defines what I HATE in racing from square one... A series that was created to facilitate the death of another. I'm as opposed to ISC's domination of sportscar racing ("giving GA/ISC the championship on a platter") for similar reasons, but I digress.

Side notes:

I talked to a LOT of the crowd wearing ChampCar stuff, and they agreed that what we had was much better than what we are stuck with now!

BTW, Local media leaked that attendance was "around" 30k, but neglected to tell you that ~22.500+ 2 day GA comps were part of the ~=30k in attendance.

The track didn't hurt for the deal; Let's see where the "red ink" bled from this time... anyone... anyone...

BTW2: Officials at Fontucky are looking to move the date and keep it as the finale.. They like the $500k they get for the date, but want better weather for the fans in hopes that this crap formula will draw more people... :rofl:

Such as it is, Gentlemen, act like the adults you are.

I'm tired of your bitchin' about what is, was, and should be (especially at events you didn't attend).

Peace

[Chief]

Aww man, I'm just trying to help out the deep 'Indy' thinkers who can't see the forest through the trees in T1. And Racing Truth, you may very well be correct on the ratings. 2 to 1, 0.01 to 0.005, what's the difference right? We smok'em peace-pipe at the next IRL race I go to.

2012 Indy Car TV Ratings Summary

Fontana 0.2 was (Las Vegas 1.2 in 2011 ABC)

Baltimore 0.2 was 0.6

Sonoma 0.2 was 0.3

Qingdao 0.0

Mid-Ohio 0.5 (ABC) was 0.2 (VesrUs)

Edmonton 0.12 was 0.60

Toronto 0.8 (ABC) was 0.41 (VersrsUs)

Iowa 0.18 was 0.3

Milwaukee 1.0 was 0.8 (ABC)

Texas 0.25 was 0.35

Detroit 0.7 (ABC) was 0.9 (Milwaukee 2011)

Indy 500 4.1 (overnite) was 4.3

Brazil 0.23 was 0.08 (rainout), 0.40 in 2010

Long Beach 0.32 was 0.28

Barber 0.25 was 0.34

St. Pete 0.9 was 1.3 (ABC)

[DagoFast]

Hoowee, thems some eggciting key metrics! :rofl:

[Racing Truth]

I'm not going to defend, in any way, the ABC #'s. Outside of Indy (4.3 compared to 4.0), they were awful and down. Period.

On NBCSN, two oldish links on the struggles:

February (http://www.awfulannouncing.com/2012-articles/february/nbc-sports-network-ratings-continue-to-struggle.html)

March (http://www.nypost.com/p/news/business/what_the_puck_wn2b9Gi99p6hpCmcEp3CdP)

The network might have improved a touch since then, but this yr. started with a lower base.

[Lux Interior]

My feeling is watch it if you are interested in it and enjoy it, and don't watch it if you don't care. For example, I never watch anything NASCAR. All this hate is just plain silly - just don't support it instead of hating.

[Chief]

With regards to Versus/NBCSN, it was a bad idea then and the contract with these folks has done nothing to improve the sports visibility now. If there is a crossover of viewers who bowhunt, fish, bull ride or whatever the original plan was, it did not work. And, I'm not referring to production values.

The split broadcast between ABC/NBCSN telecasts hacks the schedule up, no continuity can be found. If there is a 'voice of the series', I'd be hard pressed to determine who that was from a broadcast perspective.

IZOD since their second year has been essentially worthless.

This is not hate. This is reality. The series is powerless to do anything about it. No money, no ideas, nothing but status quo floundering. So, what are they going to do about it?

[SteveH]

It was only a bad idea if there were better offers on the table. I doubt if there were. It is the end result of several years of bad ideas.

[DagoFast]

It was only a bad idea if there were better offers on the table. I doubt if there were. It is the end result of several years of bad ideas.

Here's to many more! :thumbup:

[Chief]

Things are looking up....EDMONTON is HISTORY. Yet ANOTHER venue the IRL/IndyCARz couldn't hold. 200K for a weekend reduced to NOTHING. Just like Toronto, Australia, Long Beach...and everywhere else.

Now what? Destroyed markets....headed in the right direction?

END of line for Edmonton Indy (http://www.edmontonjournal.com/sports/autoracing/line+Edmonton+Indy/7281165/story.html)

[JohnHKart]

Take the ashes of the hellhole grand pix out to the cemetery east of town!

[racermike]

Notes from one who attended:
As I said I would, I didn't pay a dime on tickets or pit passes... Every one of the "season ticket" holders got GA tix with their NASCAR seats, so there were a lot of "opportunists" who felt they could make a buck or two dispensing their "comps". :rofl: Most ended up giving the tickets to someone who had a measure of interest.

Main Point:
As anticipated, the EARL did a piss-poor job managing the track rental. They moved the autograph session, and shortened it to 1/2 hour with no advance warning to the fans, then they cut the line.
Adding to this, the IZOD staff was woefully prepared to deal with these conditions. THEY HAD NO IDEA WHAT THEY WERE IN FOR!!! It was 107 degrees out there, and you are gonna see some pizzed off people when they break the news to you "on the fly"...

The fan experience was substandard, and if I had run an event like this when I worked for the Inner Circle fan club I would have been dismissed immediately. :thumdown:

The race was boring (I left after ~110 laps). the cars lack any visual show of speed, and are still butt-ugly. Very little actual "racing" was taking place. I talked to a lot of people that loved CART and Champcar and were dissapointed with the DW12.

Same old BS, different promises behind their actions...

On the upside, I haven't seen so much "eye candy" since a NOPI event I wasn't supposed to be at...:D

Call me what you want, but I won't attend race day for those clowns (even if I get freebies) until someone gets a clue...

manic

This is the first year, I really didnt pay attention to the series at all, not even knowing the schedule or anything on TV.

Pretty sad considering that I lived this sport 24/7/365.

I pretty much concentrate on ALMS and F1 only.

[NismoZ]

No Edmonton!? How could they top Allmendinger smacking the wall from the lead then bursting into... tears, ANYway? All downhill since then. Really.

[Indy]

Haha, that was one of the biggest crybaby moments in CC history. :laugh:

Of course, he was driving for Russo, so what else would you expect? :saywhat:

[NismoZ]

Heck, I probably would have cried too at that age. What was he...12 or so? Nah, I liked AJ. Not so sure now.

[Lux Interior]

Haha, that was one of the biggest crybaby moments in CC history. :laugh:

Of course, he was driving for Russo, so what else would you expect? :saywhat:

My favorite was Bordais all pouty at Bobby Doorknobs when Bobby won at Mt. Tremblant. That was great:rofl:

[Chief]

Hoowee, thems some eggciting key metrics! :rofl:

Here's some great press for the leeGue....more positive direction for 'em! :


The 2012 IndyCar Series season was not much of a success for broadcast partners ABC and NBC Sports Network.

NBC Sports Network averaged 292,000 viewers for IndyCar coverage during the 2012 season, according to Sports Business Journal, down 27% from last year (402K).
This season was the least-viewed on NBCSN, which began televising IndyCar coverage in 2009.

ABC, meanwhile, averaged 2.5 million viewers for coverage this season — down 17% from last year. Four of the six races on ABC failed to draw even 1% of U.S. TV homes.
The only exceptions were the Indy 500 (4.3) and the June 16 race from Milwaukee (1.0), which due to rain delays aired for only an hour on ABC.

[Chief]

Here's some even MORE positive direction news:


Al Speyer - executive director of Firestone Racing wrote:''It's clear to us the current IndyCar management is not interested in working with us"

Indycar dumping Firestone? (http://espn.go.com/racing/indycar/story/_/id/8425213/indycar-exploring-tire-options-besides-firestone)

[stroker]

Here's some even MORE positive direction news:



Indycar dumping Firestone? (http://espn.go.com/racing/indycar/story/_/id/8425213/indycar-exploring-tire-options-besides-firestone)

"new direction"??? What would that be? Synthetic "eco-friendly" rubber?

[Chief]

"new direction"??? What would that be? Synthetic "eco-friendly" rubber?

CHEAP. That's the new direction. To lower costs for the owners so they can still pay the Dallara tariff for spare parts (and IMS can still get their kickbacks), the series has to cheapen other stuff. Firestone either has to drop prices or get out.

Great timing again....can you imagine not-fully-tested tires in T1 at Pocono? Maybe even in a doubleheader? I think IMS is looking for more ways to have the "wheels fall off the cart", figuratively. New direction, baby! :laugh::gomer:

[stroker]

CHEAP. That's the new direction. To lower costs for the owners so they can still pay the Dallara tariff for spare parts (and IMS can still get their kickbacks), the series has to cheapen other stuff. Firestone either has to drop prices or get out.

Great timing again....can you imagine not-fully-tested tires in T1 at Pocono? Maybe even in a doubleheader? I think IMS is looking for more ways to have the "wheels fall off the cart", figuratively. New direction, baby! :laugh::gomer:

Yet another reason to go retro and eliminate all the aero crap. It would reduce speeds by about 40 to 50 mph at Indy.

[Rex Karz]

Hell, drop the wings, drop ground effects, drop all of the aero bits. Make all four tires about three inches wide. Put the engine in front. Take out this fuel cell stuff and make the drivers wear those toy plastic helmets. Bib overalls worked for Carroll Shelby. Should be good enough for the Real Men of the Brickyard.

If one of the cars blows up and burns to a crisp, at least the Real IndyCar Driver died doing what he loved.

[G.]

"new direction"??? What would that be? Synthetic "eco-friendly" rubber?

We gonna go with all-natchurl wood. We dun partnered up with a Brazilian firm, that harvests hardwoods from the rainforest. It's renewable!

[stroker]

Hell, drop the wings, drop ground effects, drop all of the aero bits. Make all four tires about three inches wide. Put the engine in front. Take out this fuel cell stuff and make the drivers wear those toy plastic helmets. Bib overalls worked for Carroll Shelby. Should be good enough for the Real Men of the Brickyard.

If one of the cars blows up and burns to a crisp, at least the Real IndyCar Driver died doing what he loved.

I'd rather watch that than what we've got.

[datachicane]

http://morethings.com/fan/beverly_hillbillies/pilot/leaving-home.jpg

[Napoleon]

http://morethings.com/fan/beverly_hillbillies/pilot/leaving-home.jpg

50 years ago today the first episode of this show aired.

[Don Quixote]

Who needs Firestone?

http://coedmagazine.files.wordpress.com/2012/09/yes-this-happened-september-24th-33.jpg

[NismoZ]

See? Closed cockpit, open-wheel, McDonalds sponsorship...things are looking up! Spy photo taken in the Dallara design studio?:thumbup:

[TKGAngel]

Things are looking so far up that KV Racing allegedly laid off two dozen today (per Curt Cavin).

[Ed_Severson]

Things are looking so far up that KV Racing allegedly laid off two dozen today (per Curt Cavin).

No "allegedly" needed. It was a bloodbath, and unfortunately I was part of it. I'm sure I'm not the only guy in the paddock who got ****ed by Kalkhoven but I might be the only one who got ****ed by him twice.

I should add this, which I don't think has been reported anywhere yet -- 22 guys got canned at Panther and 12 at Ganassi/B this week as well. Things are going to be scary bad this winter.

[Rogue Leader]

No "allegedly" needed. It was a bloodbath, and unfortunately I was part of it. I'm sure I'm not the only guy in the paddock who got ****ed by Kalkhoven but I might be the only one who got ****ed by him twice.

I should add this, which I don't think has been reported anywhere yet -- 22 guys got canned at Panther and 12 at Ganassi/B this week as well. Things are going to be scary bad this winter.

Sorry to hear, hope you land back on your feet.

[TKGAngel]

Sorry Ed. I've been burned by Twitter in the past, so I always add a disclaimer. I really hope things work out for you.