View Full Version : HELLo...
Giant explosion/fire in Indy, 2 dead, THIRTY:eek: homes damaged or destroyed!? No smell of gas? What ELSE could cause something like that? This could be interesting. Ruled out a meth lab or bomb. :confused:
Can't believe I didn't this until now.
http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/11/11/15083724-two-killed-homes-destroyed-in-huge-indianapolis-explosion?lite
Does Timothy McVeigh have relatives in the area? :saywhat:
-Kevin
WickerBill
11-12-12, 11:37 AM
Two miles from my house.
The explosion felt, in my chest, like a huge firework going off over our house. Everyone ran out into the street to see what blew up. Keep in mind... two miles away.
Have a good friend whose house backed up to the detonation. Circled and labeled A in the following picture.
http://i.imgur.com/4lex4.jpg
Their parents' house is labeled B.
It's been 36 hours and no explanation. I'm calling it -- we will find out it was intentional. Insurance fraud gone terribly, terribly wrong. Just a hunch.
Sweet Jeebus. :saywhat: :eek:
I've seen nothing in the mainstream media on this, and I'm a news junkie. :irked:
-Kevin
http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/11/12/15110656-massive-indianapolis-explosion-baffles-investigators?lite
-Kevin
Napoleon
11-12-12, 12:06 PM
Was anyone in the house?
The stories I have read have stated that 2 are dead but no mention if they were in or out of the house.
In the last 15 or so years I recall three house explosions in the Cleveland area which were caused by gas leaks in the house. If I am recalling correctly 2 were pretty big where the house was largely/totally destroyed (but IIRC one was out in the country and the other was in basically an abandoned area).
WB...does it not look like your house labeled A has the lower level left (garage?) blown OUTward?? Similar problems in more than one house...at the same time? HAS to be gas!? I wonder what ELSE a relatively new sub-division like that one may have running underneath it?
Napoleon
11-12-12, 12:11 PM
WB...does it not look like your house labeled A has the lower level left (garage?) blown OUTward??
That is not how I would interpret that picture. The debris that you may think is “blown out” is from other houses in the area. Likely the missing wall is now inside the structure.
TrueBrit
11-12-12, 12:21 PM
Bloody hell!!!!:eek::eek::eek:
Probably right about the blown debris, I was just looking at the siding bending outward...I suppose if the wall was gone the siding is just sort of flopping in the breeze. House A again...look at the main gable edge...now THAT was blown OUT! Pressures in the attics had to be fierce.
cameraman
11-12-12, 01:00 PM
I can't fathom how a house could fill with gas to the extent required to create that large an explosion without anyone smelling it.:confused:
Napoleon
11-12-12, 01:34 PM
I can't fathom how a house could fill with gas to the extent required to create that large an explosion without anyone smelling it.:confused:
That is why I asked if anyone was in it. Now if someone was didn't this happen real early in the morning? Its possible that they were asleep and never smelled it or if the 2 were in the house the one person intentionally opened a gas line in the house after the other had gone to bed.
That is why I asked if anyone was in it. Now if someone was didn't this happen real early in the morning? Its possible that they were asleep and never smelled it or if the 2 were in the house the one person intentionally opened a gas line in the house after the other had gone to bed.
Based on what I read, it happened ~11pm Sat. Damage to that extent would require a major main gas line leak. Plus, there would have been a residual fire resulting from the explosion/leak, requiring the gas to be shut off. It appears that has been ruled out. :confused:
-Kevin
I don't see a crater, just part of a basement wall. You'd think an explosion that powerful would excavate some earth. Looks like a cruise missile strike.
I don't see a crater, just part of a basement wall. You'd think an explosion that powerful would excavate some earth. Looks like a cruise missile strike.
Either that or a drone gone wild. :saywhat:
-Kevin
I don't see a crater, just part of a basement wall. You'd think an explosion that powerful would excavate some earth. Looks like a cruise missile strike.
That's the conspiracy theory going on now. :\
Curious, for the amount of NG needed to create that big of a boom, wouldn't the house be over-saturated and be beyond the flash point?
This reeks of intent.
Sorry for the neighborhood, and the fatalities. :(
Andrew Longman
11-12-12, 03:01 PM
Either that or a drone gone wild. :saywhat:
-KevinIt that covered in homeowners insurance? :gomer:
Elmo may be able to say more but there was a gas leak in Allentown not too long ago, from an old decaying line, that blew up most of the home on a block. Looked a lot like this.
But these look like much newer homes and presumably newer gas lines.
Saw this once several years ago. Came upon it on my way to work before any responders. Brand new house, had watched it being built as I drove past twice a day. Thank GOD it was not yet occupied. The trees surrounding it were filled with insulation. Just a junk pile of fresh lumber! Not a wall remained. It was a gas explosion (SOME contractor didn't do his job right!) BUT...no fire, no smoke, no charring...just a pile of sticks. It was a stunning sight.
Napoleon
11-12-12, 04:30 PM
Plus, there would have been a residual fire resulting from the explosion/leak, requiring the gas to be shut off.
When I first read this I thought “that makes sense” but then the more I think of it actually that doesn’t make any sense at all (no offence intended). First, whether the explosion was from gas or something else altogether I think there is just as likely to be a residual fire and just as likely the gas would need to be turned off. Go back and look at the picture. Do you think that there wasn’t gas pouring into the house after the explosion, regardless of what caused it or what part of the house it initiated in? The only way gas was not pouring into the house would be if it was shut off for non-payment or something. And if it happened that the explosion was from gas, unless the trigger just miraculously just happen to occur right at where the gas leak was so that the ignition source BOTH lit the gas line leak and all the gas in the house at the same time AND the ignition source continued to ignite the line until oxygen returned to levels sufficient to ignite the gas (I would guess that right after the explosion you had a pretty wide radius with very low atmospheric pressure with nearly no oxygen remaining at the center making it all but impossible for anything to burn). In fact as I write this it seems to me less likely that there would be a gas fire after a gas explosion because don’t other explosives, like the McViegh example, self-generate the reaction unlike, say, a grain elevator or coal dust fire where the fuel in the air combines with O2?
By the looks from the picture is sure looks like a bunch of stuff at the center of it is scorched as if there was a big fireball.
Damage to that extent would require a major main gas line leak.
Not really. If the house was sitting there for days with a leak enough would build up. In fact in a way it make more sense that it was a smaller leak. If it was a truly large leak unless the ignition source was an open flame or something that would nearly immediately light the gas when it reached critical levels then I would thing the large leak could pump so much gas into the house that it would become ignitable and it would be a lot likelier that neighbors would have reported the smell of gas.
more photos:
http://s11.postimage.org/4s91dtnfn/628x471.jpg
http://s10.postimage.org/4c77nnsrt/628x471.jpg
http://s8.postimage.org/6p0apcnut/628x471.jpg
http://www.sfgate.com/news/us/article/Gas-company-No-calls-about-furnace-at-blast-site-4028726.php#item-12759
When I first read this I thought “that makes sense” but then the more I think of it actually that doesn’t make any sense at all (no offence intended). First, whether the explosion was from gas or something else altogether I think there is just as likely to be a residual fire and just as likely the gas would need to be turned off. Go back and look at the picture. Do you think that there wasn’t gas pouring into the house after the explosion, regardless of what caused it or what part of the house it initiated in? The only way gas was not pouring into the house would be if it was shut off for non-payment or something. And if it happened that the explosion was from gas, unless the trigger just miraculously just happen to occur right at where the gas leak was so that the ignition source BOTH lit the gas line leak and all the gas in the house at the same time AND the ignition source continued to ignite the line until oxygen returned to levels sufficient to ignite the gas (I would guess that right after the explosion you had a pretty wide radius with very low atmospheric pressure with nearly no oxygen remaining at the center making it all but impossible for anything to burn). In fact as I write this it seems to me less likely that there would be a gas fire after a gas explosion because don’t other explosives, like the McViegh example, self-generate the reaction unlike, say, a grain elevator or coal dust fire where the fuel in the air combines with O2?
By the looks from the picture is sure looks like a bunch of stuff at the center of it is scorched as if there was a big fireball.
Not really. If the house was sitting there for days with a leak enough would build up. In fact in a way it make more sense that it was a smaller leak. If it was a truly large leak unless the ignition source was an open flame or something that would nearly immediately light the gas when it reached critical levels then I would thing the large leak could pump so much gas into the house that it would become ignitable and it would be a lot likelier that neighbors would have reported the smell of gas.
My point of comparison was the fires that broke out in Queens, NY after Sandy. Entire blocks burned down. We've also had gas leak explosions locally, but nothing close to the impact of this blast. Additionally, the investigators have ruled out a gas leak. I'm no expert, but just comparing gas leak incidents I've read about previously. This just appears like some sort of explosive was involved here.
-Kevin
Update (http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Latest-News-Wires/2012/1112/Could-faulty-furnace-be-behind-fiery-Indianapolis-explosion)
-Kevin
Napoleon
11-12-12, 05:50 PM
Additionally, the investigators have ruled out a gas leak. I'm no expert, but just comparing gas leak incidents I've read about previously.
The way I read the stories I do not think that is what they are saying. I have taken it that what the gas line is saying is that lines in the street and in other peoples house (which would only be relevent if the problem is being caused by surging gas pressure or excessive water in the lines) have not been found to have leaks. Nothing I have read suggest that in the house that blew up there was no leak. It is almost inevitable that the line is now in fact leaking in that house (I know where the lines run in my house and if it suffered that much damage there is all but 100% chance my system would be leaking). I doubt there has been the time to reassemble all the components to figure it the damage to what is left of the system was all caused by the blast.
We have had several of these types of explosions in NEOhio and this is very similar, but for the fact it was in a built up area and people died.
Napoleon
11-12-12, 05:53 PM
Update (http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Latest-News-Wires/2012/1112/Could-faulty-furnace-be-behind-fiery-Indianapolis-explosion)
-Kevin
So it sounds like they were not at home and work was recently done on the furnace. I am sticking with the gas theory. I bet it was leaking but they were not around to smell the gas so it had a chance to build up to explosive levels then something set it off, like say the furnace coming on as the house cooled off in the evening.
TravelGal
11-12-12, 06:23 PM
Sweet Jeebus. :saywhat: :eek:
I've seen nothing in the mainstream media on this, and I'm a news junkie. :irked:
-Kevin
I saw stories about it all day yesterday. I was going to post ask but then figured maybe it wasn't really Indianapolis. Just somewhere by it. As the news media often does.
Geez, WB. What a an experience. Can hardly believe those pictures.
So it sounds like they were not at home and work was recently done on the furnace. I am sticking with the gas theory. I bet it was leaking but they were not around to smell the gas so it had a chance to build up to explosive levels then something set it off, like say the furnace coming on as the house cooled off in the evening.
While I agree that a gas leak seems like the likely cause, an explosion like this makes the Real Genius Jiffy Pop ending look plausible. :saywhat: ;)
EG3g8Saea5E
-Kevin
Not sure what other possible causes are out there - at least real world possibilities (drones? :rolleyes:).
Assuming forced hot air heat for those newer homes, then gas would seem the most likely cause. I don't see the unit itself exploding in such a fashion.
So we have a leak big enough to push the atmosphere above the lower explosive limit of the gas. The explosive range is actually fairly narrow for natural gas: 5-15%. And the odor threshold for the mercaptan odorant is 0.0021PPM. By design, the odor of a leak is way bad before it gets to explosive levels.
The video didn't seem to indicate a massive volume of fire OR a large gas fed fire. Even a house service burning opening doesn't create a massive fire. The fire shown looked typical of lightweight construction materials burning.
Small under controlled leak in house or house service?
Will be interesting to see what they find as they dig deeper.
Talked to a friend who lives very nearby. The rumors are running toward insurance fraud. I have been told the wife was estranged, living with boyfriend, and perhaps not able to afford this neighborhood any longer. The wife, boyfriend and daughter left and spent at least one night away from the house before it exploded. It occurs to me that having the furnace repaired would be a good cover for subsequent intentional sabotage.
All rumor, but it does sound plausible, and if so, there have been two murders.
Talked to a friend who lives very nearby. The rumors are running toward insurance fraud.
Hard not to look at the background and ponder this possibility. Circumstantial evidence might be the key if that is the case. Short of high explosives - getting all the components right to make this blast? Skilled or very lucky.
Of course, could just be unfortunate timing. We had a fire in an Italian restaurant. To this day, people come to me and tell me about how "the mob" did it. Not unless the mob has the forethought to install the metal exhaust duct next to the wood framing in the attic.
In Mr & Mrs Smith the house blew up when Brad Pitt kicked a thermal detonator under a 100 gallon fuel oil tank in the basement. But even that huge explosion only knocked down half the house. :gomer:
Geez...lots of people losing houses in these economic times...glad most don't decide to blow them up and kill people as they leave, IF that fraud theory is true. Hate to think it is, but...:shakehead (It'd make a good Columbo episode, though!)
Hard not to look at the background and ponder this possibility. Circumstantial evidence might be the key if that is the case. Short of high explosives - getting all the components right to make this blast? Skilled or very lucky.
Everything I know about gas explosions I learned on Mythbusters and Google. Ok, not everything but a lot of it.
This looks like a big blast for an accidental gas explosion. Compared to other gas explosion pictures on the interwebs the debris field looks larger and the destruction more complete. Of course some of that is from fire after the fact but quite a bit of the house appears to be in other people's yards.
The wife, boyfriend and daughter left and spent at least one night away from the house before it exploded.
I wonder if any of their possessions were put in storage or moved out recently. Did all their photo albums, birth certificates, & other irreplaceable items get burned up too?
Compared to other gas explosion pictures on the interwebs the debris field looks larger and the destruction more complete.
What got me was the size of the debris itself - I was surprised to see such small pieces. I'd expect more of a woosh/thump explosion with gas rather than a crack/bang type. Perhaps not the technical terms...
More than anyone really wants to know, but we are a geeky bunch so, some points from my manual on explosions:
When optimum (i.e., most violent) explosions occur; it is almost always at mixtures near or just above the stoichiometric mixture (i.e., slightly fuel rich). This is the optimum mixture. These mixtures produce the most efficient combustion and, therefore, the highest flame speeds, rates of pressure rise, maximum pressures, and consequently the most damage. Post-explosion fires and secondary explosions can occur if there are pockets of overly rich mixtures that further mix with air (oxygen) resulting in mixtures within the flammable/explosive range and subsequent burning. Hydrogen and certain other fuels, however, can produce explosions for a much larger range of concentrations away from stoichiometry. Furthermore, explosions can also result from structures with a high level of congestion, even when mixtures are well away from stoichiometric conditions.
Explosions of mixtures near the UEL tend to produce post-explosion fires because of the fuel-rich mixtures. The delayed combustion of the remaining fuel produces the post-explosion fire. Often, a portion of the mixture over the UEL has fuel that does not burn until it is mixed with air during the explosion’s venting phase or negative-pressure phase, thereby producing the characteristic post-explosion fire or secondary explosion.
Anteater
11-13-12, 04:18 PM
Talked to a friend who lives very nearby. The rumors are running toward insurance fraud. I have been told the wife was estranged, living with boyfriend, and perhaps not able to afford this neighborhood any longer. The wife, boyfriend and daughter left and spent at least one night away from the house before it exploded. It occurs to me that having the furnace repaired would be a good cover for subsequent intentional sabotage.
All rumor, but it does sound plausible, and if so, there have been two murders.
It all sounds rather suspicious, especially if you read the details in this article:
http://abcnews.go.com/US/authorities-probe-indianapolis-explosion/story?id=17701047#.UKKcNWfRh9Q
:saywhat: So tragic if 2 innocent people lost their lives because of someone's financial/marital problems.
Napoleon
11-13-12, 06:19 PM
What got me was the size of the debris itself - I was surprised to see such small pieces.
This and nrc got me wondering if I could find pictures of the last one in our area and it occured in 2011. Note though (and I had forgotten this about this one) it was propane. I recall someone telling me once propane has more btus. One of the stories say it was heard in 3 counties and as far away as Canton, which as to be something like 10 miles, with debris being blasted 1000 yards.
http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/j/MSNBC/Components/Photo/_new/pb-110302-ohio-blast-jm-02.photoblog900.jpg
http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/j/MSNBC/Components/Photo/_new/pb-110302-ohio-blast-jm-01.photoblog900.jpg
Nappy... that's IT! That is what I saw years ago on my way to work. Without the smoke, even. Pink insulation everywhere...even in the trees. Nothing more than about 4 feet above ground level...and the nearby houses?... Untouched! No fire...unlike this one in Indy.:confused:
I wonder if it is a function of the "tightness" of newer homes or lightweight construction. The row homes that blow in the city never look like these new houses.
Andrew Longman
11-14-12, 01:29 AM
I wonder if it is a function of the "tightness" of newer homes or lightweight construction. The row homes that blow in the city never look like these new houses.Maybe. But this was Allentown in feb. 2011
http://www.google.com/search?q=gas+explosion+allentown+pa&hl=en&safe=off&client=safari&tbo=d&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=3SqjUJTINMaXiAKWs4DgCg&ved=0CAkQ_AUoAQ&biw=1024&bih=672#biv=i|15;d|IepKD4wf_tAYKM:
It all sounds rather suspicious, especially if you read the details in this article:
http://abcnews.go.com/US/authorities-probe-indianapolis-explosion/story?id=17701047#.UKKcNWfRh9Q
:saywhat: So tragic if 2 innocent people lost their lives because of someone's financial/marital problems.
The houses in that neighborhood are not McMansions, but they are pretty decent size, and the neighborhood is not very old. I would guess they sell for about $300,000. Even if the mortgage was for 80% of value, it would still be more than $1,000 per month, which was the child support. If no one is working, any one has a spending or drug problem, etc., they could have been been under financial distress. And the ex-husband implies that the wife is a money-grubber, which would make this funny if it weren't so tragic.
This and nrc got me wondering if I could find pictures of the last one in our area and it occured in 2011. Note though (and I had forgotten this about this one) it was propane. I recall someone telling me once propane has more btus. One of the stories say it was heard in 3 counties and as far away as Canton, which as to be something like 10 miles, with debris being blasted 1000 yards.
The debris field looks similar in size but it's hard to tell from that perspective. Compare the damage on the neighboring house the the houses in front and behind the Indy house. They have siding and sheathing ripped off, garage doors collapsed, etc.
ElmoT your question on tight/cheap construction crossed my mind, but how often do houses with (presumably) modern appliances/furnaces go up like this?
ElmoT your question on tight/cheap construction crossed my mind, but how often do houses with (presumably) modern appliances/furnaces go up like this?
Fires or explosions?
I've been to many many gas leaks, but only one or two explosions. Those were minor compared to this one.
As for problems with appliances - they are extremely rare. Most have lots safety devices and it takes multiple failures to create a problem.
WHAT!? Another Indy house blown off it's foundation today! Has to be gas! 'Tis the season!
WickerBill
11-15-12, 03:31 PM
So the latest (and if I missed it earlier in the thread I'm sorry)
The residents:
A. Were at a casino for the night
B. Boarded their cat for one night
C. Called a couple places, including woman's ex, to talk about "troublesome furnace"
To quote myself: insurance fraud gone horribly, horribly wrong.
So the latest (and if I missed it earlier in the thread I'm sorry)
The residents:
A. Were at a casino for the night
B. Boarded their cat for one night
C. Called a couple places, including woman's ex, to talk about "troublesome furnace"
To quote myself: insurance fraud gone horribly, horribly wrong.
So they stayed a night in a hotel previously because of the supposed furnace problem. The first problem was supposedly fixed with a new thermostat. I'm wondering if that was setting pretext or a first failed attempt.
So the supposedly the casino night was just a coincidence and not prompted by more furnace problems?
Napoleon
11-15-12, 05:41 PM
The first problem was supposedly fixed with a new thermostat.
Do you happen to know, did they say they replaced the thermostat themselves?
If there was a failed first attempt you got to wonder if it was a failed ignition, and if so wouldn't they have had all the windows and doors open when they cameback home?
OK, WB...TV news this evening saying Indy police are now calling this a homicide investigation. Clues point to an individual "in a white van":shakehead who may have "sparked" that explosion.
WickerBill
11-20-12, 08:17 AM
Correct.
Police say house explosion was not an accident (http://www.fox59.com/news/wxin-police-house-explosion-was-not-an-accident-20121119,0,839314.column)
Short of a confession, this will be a long messy case. The fire/explosion investigation is very dynamic of late. Lots of experts bashing experts AND legal wranglings over bad fire science of the past.
Andrew Longman
11-20-12, 02:12 PM
I was thinking that exactly. I am no expert but it would seem that loosening a gas fitting and then setting an analog alarm clock might provide the needed fuel and spark and it would look exactly like an accident.
The giveaway would be if they removed valuables ahead of time.
Like a cat? Save the cat...kill people.:irked:Tips on the van coming in. Police are getting lots of info! Owners (house) with lots of drug arrests and major financial problems. When they get the van driver he'll rat 'em out. Probably did it for 500... Cash.:shakehead
WickerBill
11-20-12, 06:58 PM
They owned two Harleys. Neither were in the garage of their home that night, plus they drove separately to the casino.
Guess they like to gamble. I don't think they have a winning hand at this time.
Andrew Longman
11-21-12, 12:33 AM
They owned two Harleys. Neither were in the garage of their home that night, plus they drove separately to the casino.Dumb. Those weren't insured too?
They owned two Harleys. Neither were in the garage of their home that night, plus they drove separately to the casino.
This is exactly what I meant when I said these are frequently based on circumstantial evidence. That isn't necessarily a bad thing and can make for a pretty damning case. These types of details can be seriously damaging to a defense.
Murder is the case that they gave them: http://fox59.com/2012/12/21/marion-co-prosecutor-to-announce-charges-filed-in-richmond-hill-explosion/
Napoleon
12-21-12, 02:36 PM
A microwave on a timer was the ignition sourse.
Interesting. I figured the big tell would be finding something they had put together specifically as the ignition source. I wonder what evidence they will produce that it was the source of ignition?
Don Quixote
12-21-12, 04:40 PM
Murder is the case that they gave them: http://fox59.com/2012/12/21/marion-co-prosecutor-to-announce-charges-filed-in-richmond-hill-explosion/
Sometimes pictures speak volumes....
http://tribwxin.files.wordpress.com/2012/12/explosion-mugs-all-three.jpg?w=620
Napoleon
01-04-13, 08:23 AM
NY Times story on investigation (http://http://www.nytimes.com/2013/01/04/us/inquiry-into-indianapolis-blast-shows-scheme-gone-wrong.html?hpw)
chop456
01-04-13, 08:27 AM
Sometimes pictures speak volumes....
http://tribwxin.files.wordpress.com/2012/12/explosion-mugs-all-three.jpg?w=620
I recognize Nancy Pelosi and Jerry Springer, but who's the guy in the middle?
NY Times story on investigation (http://http://www.nytimes.com/2013/01/04/us/inquiry-into-indianapolis-blast-shows-scheme-gone-wrong.html?hpw)
dud link.
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/01/04/us/inquiry-into-indianapolis-blast-shows-scheme-gone-wrong.html?hpw&_r=0
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