Newtown, Conn.

[nrc]

The evidence is clear that the rights of ALL citizens have increasingly been protected through our history. We are becoming MORE perfect as a nation in that regard. Too bad if that means some people have somewhat more restrictions if it is needed to give full rights to more. If it were 1860 I would say to slaveholders, "Sorry, you don't get to own people even if it is shame you will lose "property".

As a nation we may be approaching a similar situation where we say, "Sorry, you don't get to own weapons capable of killing dozens of people in a matter of seconds because ALL of us deserve freedom from fear we will be killed by a mass murderer".

Where does the Constitution or Bill of Rights guarantee the right of "freedom from fear?" Do we bring back prohibition because I should have the freedom from fear of being killed by a drunk driver?

[Elmo T]

The "driving is a privilege, gun ownership is a right" grows old with me. Clearly, there are people who should not own guns. HOW we make that happen should be the question - or more specifically - how do we keep the guns separate from the people who shouldn't have them.

What guns are we allowed to own? Now the waters grow muddy. And everyone needs to accept that regardless of how the above is accomplished, there will be bad people with guns.

On that note - spent some time with my PD friends over the holidays. Here are a few of the quotes I heard -

"I bought two AR's earlier this year, need to go buy a few more"

"More good guys need to be carrying..."

"I've turned my car around when I realized I left my gun at home..."

"I MAKE my wife carry..."

And so on.

Should have added - this isn't helping their outlook:

3 Officers Shot At Police Station, Suspect Killed, Officials Say (http://www.myfoxphilly.com/story/20438718/shots-fired-inside-gloucester-township-police-station)

[Tifosi24]

The "driving is a privilege, gun ownership is a right" grows old with me. Clearly, there are people who should not own guns. HOW we make that happen should be the question - or more specifically - how do we keep the guns separate from the people who shouldn't have them.

What guns are we allowed to own? Now the waters grow muddy. And everyone needs to accept that regardless of how the above is accomplished, there will be bad people with guns.

On that note - spent some time with my PD friends over the holidays. Here are a few of the quotes I heard -

"I bought two AR's earlier this year, need to go buy a few more"

"More good guys need to be carrying..."

Should have added - this isn't helping their outlook:



"I've turned my car around when I realized I left my gun at home..."

"I MAKE my wife carry..."

And so on.

Should have added - this isn't helping their outlook:

3 Officers Shot At Police Station, Suspect Killed, Officials Say (http://www.myfoxphilly.com/story/20438718/shots-fired-inside-gloucester-township-police-station)

Those quotes sound like some friends of mine. In their line of work, they see a lot of bad stuff, and bad people, so I can understand their mindset.

I agree with you about the driving and gun ownership talking point. My wife isn't a learned about history and government as I am, but when she heard the NRA president say that on Meet the Press (I started laughing before he said it, because I knew that was what was going to come out) she couldn't believe it. We all know gun ownership is a right, and it has been adjudicated as such, but there has to be a better system in place to deal with folks that aren't competent enough to possess firearms.

[Andrew Longman]

Where does the Constitution or Bill of Rights guarantee the right of "freedom from fear?" Do we bring back prohibition because I should have the freedom from fear of being killed by a drunk driver?Please. You don't expect that the government should do all it reasonably can to prevent you from being killed by a drunk driver?

Of course the operative word is "reasonably". They don't (yet) require everyone to blow into an interlock to start their car but they do increasingly impose higher fines and jail time and more aggressive patrols.

My point is there seems to be shift going on following Newtown. The mood seems be saying that these tragedies are unnecessarily recurring and that the rights and responsibilities are out of balance.

[Elmo T]

More of the same. :shakehead

Alabama firefighters fired on during medical call. No one hit. Man arrested. (http://statter911.com/2012/12/28/alabama-firefighters-fired-on-during-medical-call-no-one-hit-man-arrested/)

[dando]

More of the same. :shakehead

Alabama firefighters fired on during medical call. No one hit. Man arrested. (http://statter911.com/2012/12/28/alabama-firefighters-fired-on-during-medical-call-no-one-hit-man-arrested/)

:saywhat: :(

-Kevin

[Insomniac]

No, I define speech as the communication of information and ideas through any media regardless of whether it was available in the 18th century.

I guess my point was, how would these have been defined when the constitution was drafted? To me speech is the same today as it was then. Arms are not anywhere close.

But I said it jokingly because it's pointless for many reasons. The Constitution is as flexible as anyone wants. What people like they hold to be absolute and what they don't they hold to be vague.

These guys weren't perfect. We have to make laws that suit now.

[Insomniac]

I think we need to have the Offcamber forum solve the fiscal cliff problem. This is the most civil conversation on a controversial topic on the interwebs in the history of the interwebs.

This goes to Andrew's point about forming a perfect union. The problem is simple to solve. But right now, everyone gets what they want and the math is not going to work. (And hasn't for a decade.)

[Insomniac]

More of the same. :shakehead

Alabama firefighters fired on during medical call. No one hit. Man arrested. (http://statter911.com/2012/12/28/alabama-firefighters-fired-on-during-medical-call-no-one-hit-man-arrested/)

Out of control. The media really needs to do something about the publicity these people get. They're smart enough to stop showing streakers on TV, they can certainly stop showering these people with attention.

[Indy]

I seriously wonder where it is going to end. Just because of Newtown the media have been reporting the number of shootings that occur on a regular basis. It's nothing short of staggering to consider.

It seems to me that the only people who prefer living in a third world country are those who value their personal wealth over their country being civilized (those who value civilization GTFO). They control the political system and military, which hold the country back but enrich the few, and the rest suffer in misery. When you look at the trends in the US - massive unemployment, income inequality, drug/black market economy, increasing political and geographic polarization, ignorance and illiteracy, millions of weapons on the streets - you have to wonder whether those who care more for their self interest than they do for the best interests of the American people have indeed won. And if that is the case, are we on the way to being a third world country?

We can have very real disagreements over how to avoid that, but surely none of us would argue for that outcome.

[Andrew Longman]

Indy you are describing an oligarchy and some would argue that a tiny percentage of Americans just tried to buy the presidency and are keeping Congress from resolving the fiscal cliff. But fwiw Russia and China economic and political systems exist to benefit a very few people as well.

But this not new in America either. In fact in the late 19th century the rich and selfish acted far more selfishly and we got by that.

[WickerBill]

You're surely talking about George Soros, right?

[Racing Truth]

You're surely talking about George Soros, right?

The Brothers Koch say hello.;)

But anyway, twas ever thus, and it was likely WORSE (in terms of power/$ in a few hands) 100+ years ago.

What IS worse is our dysfunctional system. Filibusters, ideologically divergent parties, divided gov't, etc. Parliamentary democracy looks rather intriguing these days.

[nrc]

Ok, clearly this thread has run its course.