Newtown, Conn.

[Gnam]

Shooting at an elementary school.
reports say 27 dead, including 14 kids? WTF shoots little kids?

http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2012/12/14/police-respond-to-report-of-school-shooting-in-conn/

[cameraman]

An insane person. A heavily armed insane person.

[Andrew Longman]

Really similar to this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunblane_school_massacre which effectively ended private ownership of guns in the UK.

I know it is a touchy subject but at some point the majority of Americans are going to want a different relationship with the 2nd amendment. Dead little kids make a compelling argument.

[dando]

Shooting at an elementary school.
reports say 27 dead, including 14 kids? WTF shoots little kids?

http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2012/12/14/police-respond-to-report-of-school-shooting-in-conn/

18 children apparently in a first grade classroom. Some things I will just never understand. I don't own a gun and I never will. :shakehead

Thoughts & prayers for those affected and those that have children in school right now. :cry:

-Kevin

[Racing Truth]

Really similar to this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunblane_school_massacre which effectively ended private ownership of guns in the UK.

I know it is a touchy subject but at some point the majority of Americans are going to want a different relationship with the 2nd amendment. Dead little kids make a compelling argument.

Nope. Sadly, it's a settled issue in this country.

Shooting happens, gun policy is brought up, NRA-type refrain (Guns don't kill people! People kill people!) is uttered, issue is dropped. Rinse and repeat.

[Napoleon]

So of course the media goes out and find the first person with the same name as the gunman, who happens not to be the gunman, and makes his life a living hell

https://twitter.com/MattBors/status/279672597837402112/photo/1

[Napoleon]

18 children apparently in a first grade classroom.

And the shooter's mom was the teacher in that class room and she is dead as well.

[dando]

And the shooter's mom was the teacher in that class room and she is dead as well.

Further clarification has it that it was her K class that was targeted. Apparently shot his roommate brother as well. Jesus.

-Kevin

[cameraman]

There seems to be a trail of shootings leading to the school. Time will tell.

If you look at the comments pages on the local Utah media you have a relatively high number of Utah teachers saying that this is the exact reason that they carry everyday while they are teaching. Yes it is fully legal in Utah. The country is split right up the middle between the two sides...

[TKGAngel]

So of course the media goes out and find the first person with the same name as the gunman, who happens not to be the gunman, and makes his life a living hell

https://twitter.com/MattBors/status/279672597837402112/photo/1

And now the media (and police) are pulling back even further to make sure they have the identities of the shooter and the deceased victim straight.

The streets of heaven are too crowded with angels tonight. :cry:

[Napoleon]

If you look at the comments pages on the local Utah media you have a relatively high number of Utah teachers saying that this is the exact reason that they carry everyday while they are teaching.

Another reason not to live in Utah. I can think of nothing that could go wrong with a building full of kids and people with guns. :rolleyes:

[Andrew Longman]

Rinse and repeat.If I were a betting man I would tend to agree.

I just think something is going to change at some point. Demographics, immigration patters and the like, combined with enough of these horrific events will at some point be at a tipping point where people just say, "enough".

Maybe not a total ban, but severe restrictions on hand guns and assault weapons. In NJ it already is basically illegal to have a hand gun outside of the home. The world didn't end and surprisingly cops basically don't get shot during traffic stops anymore.

The NRA is the most powerful lobby in DC, but 20 years ago it was the AARP. Now they are reduced to essentially being just an insurance company. Things can change.

[SteveH]

I can't imagine the horror for those parents this morning. I can't imagine the devastation many are facing now.

[cameraman]

Another reason not to live in Utah. I can think of nothing that could go wrong with a building full of kids and people with guns. :rolleyes:

Michigan just past a law to allow the same last night...

[Gnam]

I suspect the gun lobby and the crazy person lobby are both about to get smacked upside the head. Longman is right. You can't argue with 18 dead little kids.

I don't care what combination of factors lead to this tragedy. Any society that can't or won't identify a threat and prevent an armed adult from walking into a school and murdering little kids won't be functioning for very long.

I can't even comprehend the situation right now. It makes about as much sense as zombies attacking the school or vampires. No way did 18 kids just die in their classroom because they were shot to death. No way.

[dando]

20 children, 6 adults in the school. One dead @ the gunman's residence. Questions about the killer's ID. Girlfriend also missing. :saywhat:

-Kevin

[Napoleon]

Michigan just past a law to allow the same last night...

University of Michigan is all the reason I have ever needed to not want to go to Michigan ;)

[Andrew Longman]

Michigan just past a law to allow the same last night...CT already had a law to allow concealed carry in schools. http://www.mlive.com/news/index.ssf/2012/12/connecticut_has_similar_law_to.html

Did not do a lot of good.

[Andrew Longman]

As f'd up as this massacre is, this was far worse http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bath_School_bombing

And it happened long before this sort of this was so common.

[Racing Truth]

I suspect the gun lobby and the crazy person lobby are both about to get smacked upside the head. Longman is right. You can't argue with 18 dead little kids.

I don't care what combination of factors lead to this tragedy. Any society that can't or won't identify a threat and prevent an armed adult from walking into a school and murdering little kids won't be functioning for very long.

I can't even comprehend the situation right now. It makes about as much sense as zombies attacking the school or vampires. No way did 18 kids just die in their classroom because they were shot to death. No way.

Sure, you can't argue with 20 dead kids. We'll just forget about it/ignore it once the (far too many) memorials end. See Columbine.

[Gnam]

There is a difference between high school kids a couple of years away from military eligibility and first graders 10 days before Christmas.

[Ankf00]

little kids close to christmas in connecticut is worthy of outrage.

export the situation to mexico, honduras, south africa, or china and it's "who cares? i want cheap shiny things."

there's 300M guns in the country, gun control, even if politically feasible is as feasible an option as anti-gravity drives.

[Andrew Longman]

See Columbine.Sure, but see also Stockton. It prompted federal and state bans on assault weapons and increased background checks.

They mostly lapsed after ten years, so maybe that is your point. Somehow this feels different this time. Flags at half staff at US facilities around the globe. 74% of NRA members now supporting background checks. Hundreds of mayors calling for change. The kids are so young.

We will see.

[Indy]

How much freedom do you want? Our liberty is only secured by a government that restricts some freedoms in order to protect others. If we have absolute gun rights, then ALL of us have those rights, including psychos. The long term trend is toward more protection of people, not less, despite the temporary regression of the last few decades.

Very, very sad today. As a father, I am crushed. Seeing our President in obvious emotional distress was touching. I really hope we can make some progress because of this.

[KLang]

This nutball used a couple semi-automatic hand guns, not an 'assault rifle'. He also 'borrowed' these legally acquired hand guns from his mother. What changes are some of you looking for?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

[Tifosi24]

This nutball used a couple semi-automatic hand guns, not an 'assault rifle'. He also 'borrowed' these legally acquired hand guns from his mother. What changes are some of you looking for?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

I won't pretend I know the full story on this, because I have been attending to more pressing issues, but it is clear, at least in my eyes, that there is an issue that needs to be addressed. From a practical standpoint, tight gun regulation is not going to happen in the States and, to be honest, it only addresses one part of the problem with these mass shootings. The one thing gun related I would like to see is a regulation on magazine sizes. Yes, nutjobs can reload, but larger clips make their job easier, plus no one can convince me they need a 20 or 30 round clip for hunting. The more important, and difficult, issue to solve is identifying nutjobs. I don't know how to do this, but we need to identify these individuals and, when it happens, there needs to be a way to restrict their access to certain things and a robust system in place to help them. If you can't do that, no matter of regulation that can stop insanity.

[WickerBill]

In other parts of the world, it is a bomb, or a machete.

I will not sit here and say, after the events of yesterday, that everything is fine with the second amendment. But I will say troubled people do not cease to be troubled if you make handgun access more difficult. I don't think someone snaps -- but only because of a handgun. Once someone snaps, they will do damage by a thousand different means.

Although I want my freedoms, and desperately, and want the government out of my business, there is little doubt the gene pool appears to be shallowing.

I am sick to my stomach. Those poor kids who survived -- the terror they will carry forever. The parents. The siblings.

[dando]

In other parts of the world, it is a bomb, or a machete.

I will not sit here and say, after the events of yesterday, that everything is fine with the second amendment. But I will say troubled people do not cease to be troubled if you make handgun access more difficult. I don't think someone snaps -- but only because of a handgun. Once someone snaps, they will do damage by a thousand different means.

Although I want my freedoms, and desperately, and want the government out of my business, there is little doubt the gene pool appears to be shallowing.

I am sick to my stomach. Those poor kids who survived -- the terror they will carry forever. The parents. The siblings.

Chris Kluwe (P for the Vikings) pretty much summed it up for me.


"The way we deal with this tragedy in CT will tell us a lot about where we're headed as a society. Do we only address the symptoms (i.e. just gun control laws)? Or do we also address the disease -- how we treat each other and those who need help," Kluwe said in a couple of posts on Twitter.

Spot on.

I know peeps that were in the WTC on 9/11, and the long-term effects on the survivors wil be difficult to overcome. :(

-Kevin

[Andrew Longman]

I think part of this is a mental health issue which means it is a healthcare issue. Too few have access and those who do have to pay too much. They system also only pays for treatment not prevention and screening. There is a large body of evidence that adolescent screening for depression is badly needed and not doing so leads to a bunch of trouble with early adults.

Second, more can be done to require gun locks and even smart locks that keep everyone but the owner from firing the gun.

Third, as a society I see a shift in norms where people don't feel a need to have 4-5 handguns around the house (and assault rifles and extended mags and bulletproof vests, etc.). At some point owning property thats only purpose is to kill or practice killing is excessive. I don't think that can be fully legislated but society can set norms for what is reasonable.

But practical or unpractical, smart or not smart, we could also pass laws to confiscate weapons or something of the sort as a result of this or the next tragedy. Or we could do the smart thing and have an honest and open conversation as a nation where we aren't calling each other communist nanny staters and heartless nuts with death wises. That conversation would fully recognize that gun ownership comes with responsibility and that guns make it so very easy to kill with great efficiency. Knives, poison or a baseball bat can be used to kill too, but not as easily. In fact far more easily than a muzzle loading musket our founding fathers knew about.

[Rex Karz]

This issue is one of those hot button issues, if not THE hot button issue. A discussion on this matter always seems to degenerate into a flame war, which is why I hesitate to write this. I will state my views and my points and move on, not responding to any subsequent comments. I hope all others on both sides of this issue will respond in kind. I don't want the mods to have to remove this or any thread or ban anyone or anything like that. Let's be civil here, ok?

All concepts put down on paper by man have their own strengths and weaknesses. There are pluses and minuses to not only the Second Amendment, but also to the idea that possession and ownership of firearms by citizens should be banned.

But maybe the time has come to consider whether the Second Amendment really does not help us to function as a safe and sane society. Just this year alone we've had the Colorado movie theater shootings, the Milwaukee Sikh temple shootings, the Portland mall shootings, and yesterday the Connecticut school shootings. As I live in Illinois, I know all about the gun violence in Chicago and the toll that it's taking on that city.

When the Second Amendment was drafted, this country was a far, far different place. Back then, firearms were necessary to many cititzens to put food on the table. And I suspect the fear of a tyrannical government was much higher--and perhaps more realistic--than it is today.

And yet the argument that "if everyone had a gun this would not have happened" is as bad a solution to the problem as the unworkable and unrealistic idea of removing all guns from our culture. Yet when these things happen, we get the same arguments, the same ideas, and the same inflexibility on both sides of the debate.

I know that we're supposed to be living in The Greatest Country in the World. I know that when something like this happens I find it impossible to get out my American flag and wave it with great patriotic fervor. Events like yesterday's should not be happening in The Greatest Country in the World. Events like Columbine and Virginia Tech and the McDonald's Massacre should not be happening in The Greatest Country in the World. Yet they do. And they will happen again.

Perhaps the events of yesterday will be a game-changer and that we will all find some way of dealing with the 10,000 or so U.S. citizens who die each year due to gun violence, whether it's homicide, suicide, or accident.

But the cynic in me says nothing will happen. In the end, the dead will be buried, the tears will be dried, a memorial honoring those who died yesterday will be built, and the TV news crews will pack up their trucks and move on to the next story. The flame war over this issue will go on for a week or two, then gradually die out.

Then, of course, there will be another shooting. There will be another flame war with the same old tired arguments. The TV crews will descend on the scene for more wall to wall coverage.

So tonight, and every night, be sure to hug your spouse, your kids, your pets, and everyone you love. Life is precious and in terms of time rather limited.

In the end, those we love are all we have. And losing those we love us is the ultimate loss.

We cannot stop time, which is the ultimate killer. But we owe it to those who perished due to gun violence to look at man's flawed laws and see if there is a way we can at least save one person.

[datachicane]

How anyone can look at the repetitive nature of these events and conclude that the status quo is just fine frankly escapes me.

[cameraman]

Third, as a society I see a shift in norms where people don't feel a need to have 4-5 handguns around the house (and assault rifles and extended mags and bulletproof vests, etc.).

I wish I saw that. What I see around here is the exact opposite.

[Andrew Longman]

I wish I saw that. What I see around here is the exact opposite.
Definitely varies depending on where you live, but immigrants from Asia and India are not bringing a gun culture with them. South American immigrants are not as wedded to the second amendment. Young people are not as hardened to gun rights and have seen their peers killed by guns, not just in school shootings but on the streets of our cities.

It is just my hunch but I am going to bet that gun rights advocates are largely older white males and they are becoming a minority nationally. That said , the guns used yesterday in CT were owned by a middle aged female kindergarten teacher. So go figure.

[G.]

What is it in this world that would cause someone to think that this is a "thing to do"?

This takes some level of planning. Why is the STOP button broken on these *******s?



Seriously, and I am an idiot for proposing this, but is it possible to have an organized propaganda campaign to convince America that if you do this **** that you are scum, beyond contempt, unworthy of discussion?

Have the media stop even mentioning the shooters name, call them Murderer 7 or some crap. Shock PSAs that just show dead shooters (in all their "glory").

Convince the couple of people that might consider doing crap like this into treatment.

(Yes, fix mental health too.)

This sucks.

[Racing Truth]

Sure, but see also Stockton. It prompted federal and state bans on assault weapons and increased background checks.

They mostly lapsed after ten years, so maybe that is your point. Somehow this feels different this time. Flags at half staff at US facilities around the globe. 74% of NRA members now supporting background checks. Hundreds of mayors calling for change. The kids are so young.

We will see.

We let the assault weapons ban expire, for God's sake- AFTER Va. Tech. It is what it is. And not to get partisan, but someone find me 218 votes in the House for anything resembling new gun laws. This is reality, folks.

[G.]

We let the assault weapons ban expire, for God's sake- AFTER Va. Tech. It is what it is.

I know that this post might go horribly wrong, but the AWBan did nothing.

If anyone wants to discuss gun control (on a different forum!), I BEG them to PLEASE, get educated first. Most of what people know to be fact, is not.

[KLang]

I agree the AW ban was mostly useless, true assault weapons are already illegal to most people, but I expect we will see something similar proposed and passed soon. Congress can than claim they have done something.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

[Gnam]

Good thread.

You think they'll start locking down schools like the airports? Maybe a new branch for Homeland Security?

[Andrew Longman]

And the beat goes on. http://mobile.rawstory.com/therawstory/#!/entry/gunman-dead-3-injured-in-alabama-hospital-shooting,50ccc832d7fc7b5670a96790

Getting 218 votes in the house for anything that has a chance of becoming law seems impossible these days but when the majority of Amercans, including NRA members, and hundreds of mayors want change something might happen. Certainly at the state and local level.

[Racing Truth]

Good thread.

You think they'll start locking down schools like the airports? Maybe a new branch for Homeland Security?

I'd say "certainly," but have one question: How's it getting paid for?

[KLang]

We will all pay via taxes. I expect a push for fed $ for enhanced security.

[JoeBob]

My sister is a 3rd grade teacher about 40 minutes from there. An old family friend works in the other primary school in that district. This one hits close to home.

You will never be able to stop crazy people from doing crazy things. There will likely always be crazy people who are set on hurting a lot of people. But you can do things to reduce their effectiveness.

For example, if you limit magazines in guns to 10 bullets, someone that has 100 bullets to use has to pause every 10. There is an opportunity for a less dangerous intervention while the suspect is reloading. I know I'm more likely to jump on a guy's back when he's reloading than when he has virtually unloaded ammo.

Or get rid of guns all together. Someone upthread said that in other countries, people use knives or bombs. That is true. The guy who went crazy with a knife in a Chinese school is a prime example. But, he only killed two people. Everyone else suffered injuries that were survivable.

In pretty much every case, if the crazy person doesn't have a gun, the injuries are less severe, and the fatalities are significantly lower. Even with a bomb, it takes a LOT of effort to hit the sort of fatality numbers that are relatively easy with a semi-automatic rifle and a giant clip.

I don't really want to be the victim of a rampaging crazy person, but if I am, I'd rather they have pretty much anything but a gun.

Oh, and for those who think the solutions is putting guns in the hands of more people, let me ask you a question: Do you want to be the person holding a gun when the cops arrive?

In Tuscon, one of the people who helped stop the shooter had a (licensed) concealed weapon on him. He didn't take it out. Why? He (wisely) decided that when the cops arrived to a call of shots fired and multiple casualties, he didn't want to be the dude standing in the parking lot with a gun drawn.

[nrc]

Guns are not the problem. Murders are at the lowest point in 40 years. The problem is that we're creating a culture of entitled narcissists who become frustrated and can't deal with their anger when life doesn't go their way.

Nothing that can be done about guns is going to change this behavior.

[extramundane]

Good thread.

You think they'll start locking down schools like the airports?

Among other things, yes. The (private) school where I work has already announced more locked doors starting Monday. Of course, our school, like many public and private, is a multi-building, open campus on 35 acres. Faculty, students and parents are always moving about, so it's not as easy as just locking a couple extra doors.

I don't know what the solutions are, but I can say that having our faculty and staff concealed carrying wouldn't exactly put me at ease. :\

[Indy]

As a country we are just not reasonable. We believe in too many myths and lies, and our popular culture does not encourage people to educate themselves. Add to that a continuously campaigning political system that encourages politicians to gain votes by scaring the hell out of people, and you end up with a lot of primitive, tribal, irrational folks who are afraid of nearly everyone else.

Gun control is not the ultimate answer, but it is one tool at our disposal, and we badly need it for now. What would be wrong with banning everything except long guns, shotguns, and handguns with no clips and no capability to hold more than five bullets? That would still allow target shooting, self-defense and hunting, but would make yesterday's massacre impossible. Before you have a knee-jerk reaction to this, ask yourself, are you being reasonable? Would you like to describe your 2nd Amendment beliefs to the parents of those slain kindergarteners?

[cameraman]

Turns out the school was locked and no one let him in. He broke the window and let himself in.

And his mother didn't work at the school at all.

And it was first graders not kindergarten.

He was armed with his mother's legal guns.

Nobody has any idea why he went to the school.

It is going to take some time to figure out the exact details but the reporting has been pretty horrible so for.

[cameraman]

What would be wrong with banning everything except long guns, shotguns, and handguns with no clips and no capability to hold more than five bullets?

Five bullets? Damn near every hand gun out there holds more than 5 bullets. There are in excess of 270,000,000 guns in circulation in the US and there is a significant number of people who would be disinclined to turn their guns over to the government. Banning guns now is like locking the barn long after the horse is gone. All you will do is create a black market.

The problem lies with stopping the shooters before they are so far gone that they start shooting. That will require massive changes in the way that mental health is addressed in this nation. Given the current political climate, that isn't going to happen.

Essentially nothing will get done to address any of this.

[dando]

Turns out the school was locked and no one let him in. He broke the window and let himself in.

And his mother didn't work at the school at all.

And it was first graders not kindergarten.

He was armed with his mother's legal guns.

Nobody has any idea why he went to the school.

It is going to take some time to figure out the exact details but the reporting has been pretty horrible so for.

The victims were 5-10 (not including the adults). There were two classrooms that were targeted or hit (however you want to frame it). If it's laid out as my DDs' elementary, K-2 are on the first floor. 3-5 upstairs. I saw an interview with the superintendent live this AM, and she stated that Mrs. Lanza did work @ the school as a sub. And yes, he apparently broke the glass to gain access to the building, went to the school office first and then the classrooms. Why anyone would be 'legally' armed like that is beyond me. :saywhat:

The news outlets are tripping over themselves to report the 'latest', which resulted in the false reports yesterday. Haste makes waste. :irked:

EDIT: latest 411 I heard/saw was 16 6 yos and 4 7 yos. Regardless, I can't even begin to understand the grief they are experiencing...as parents and as a community.

-Kevin

[Andrew Longman]

Yeah. The reporting has been pretty awful, though some the false report such as he used handguns and Bushmaster was left in the car I believe came from the state police.

Just for grins, what if instead of regulating gun we regulated ammo? Put a massive tax on it (which could fund better security) and make sure anyone who buys it is sane and safe. Perhaps the tax gets waived if ammo is bought and consumed at a firing range but for hunters and people who want personal protection, they won't consume enough to make much of a difference. But if you want a few hundred rounds to invade a school that might be a problem.

I don't know. I am just thinking about how to view the problem differently.

[nrc]

When the Second Amendment was drafted, this country was a far, far different place. Back then, firearms were necessary to many cititzens to put food on the table. And I suspect the fear of a tyrannical government was much higher--and perhaps more realistic--than it is today.

Our constitution was written by revolutionaries. They believed that an armed citizenry was an important last defense against government tyranny. I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss fear of tyranny as unrealistic when we're talking about dismantling the Bill of Rights.

[datachicane]

Guns are not the problem. Murders are at the lowest point in 40 years. The problem is that we're creating a culture of entitled narcissists who become frustrated and can't deal with their anger when life doesn't go their way.

Nothing that can be done about guns is going to change this behavior.

Oh, for cripes sake. Paranoid schizophrenia could care less whether you're a frustrated entitled narcissist or a scion of virtue. This is not a behavior problem. These people are not processing their choices on any kind of a rational level (obviously). This is a public mental health problem. We're more prone to these issues not only because we have more guns (although that can't help), but because we invest close to zero in screening and providing adequate mental health services (and you can forget it altogether if you're uninsured).

[datachicane]

Just for grins, what if instead of regulating gun we regulated ammo? Put a massive tax on it (which could fund better security) and make sure anyone who buys it is sane and safe. Perhaps the tax gets waived if ammo is bought and consumed at a firing range but for hunters and people who want personal protection, they won't consume enough to make much of a difference. But if you want a few hundred rounds to invade a school that might be a problem.

I don't know. I am just thinking about how to view the problem differently.

OuX-nFmL0II

[Andrew Longman]

Great minds think alike. ;)

[Racing Truth]

Our constitution was written by revolutionaries. They believed that an armed citizenry was an important last defense against government tyranny. I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss fear of tyranny as unrealistic when we're talking about dismantling the Bill of Rights.

Uhh, no. Forget history for a moment. You think citizen arsenals will do ANYTHING against a determined, armed gov't? Not. A. Chance.

[cameraman]

Uhh, no. Forget history for a moment. You think citizen arsenals will do ANYTHING against a determined, armed gov't? Not. A. Chance.

??? Libya and Syria ???

[dando]

_XGFiE536gg

:thumbup: and amen.

-Kevin

[Andrew Longman]

Uhh, no.I would add that I have read very much different interpretations of the motivations of our founding fathers from credible sources.

Given that this is what it says:
A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.Some argue that what the founders were really scared of was a standing army controlled by the government -- especially the federal government. Therefore the motivation was to give the means to the states to form militias should the need for defense arise.

The fear was that a federal government would impose its will on the states, not that the people needed to fear the very people who were forming the constitution and government.

Given that is how armies were raised during the revolution, and the hesitation to have more than a minimalist standing federal army persisted through the civil war and to a degree up until the Cold War, that actually makes a lot of sense. And it better matches the actual wording of the amendment

[Racing Truth]

??? Libya and Syria ???

Armies & political order splintered in both cases.

[cameraman]

Armies & political order splintered in both cases.

Aka the real world.

[Racing Truth]

Aka the real world.

Sure, not to mention Qatari/Saudi arms. Point still stands. A UNITED gov't will always outgun the population by oh, a billion times.

[Andrew Longman]

A friend asked me today why when one guy tries and fails to explode a bomb in his shoe we all will forever have to take our shoes off to fly, but countless people including kids get mowed down by guns again and again and we as a nation have been unwilling to do anything meaningful about it.

The only answers I can think of is we don't have a constitutionally protected right to bear shoes and no one will make money if we keep our shoes on. Seems like a pretty poor excuse. Just sayn'

[gerhard911]

Your friend is a genius and the NRA are morons. By refusing to accept any reasonable control to firearm access they will eventually be facing draconian measures when the tide of public opinion overcomes their lobbying influence.

[G.]

A UNITED gov't will always outgun the population by oh, a billion times.
You need to think about this some more.

[stroker]

It's getting harder and harder to stay quiet on this...

[Indy]

My kids' right to live is more important than anyone's right to a gun-loving lifestyle.

[cameraman]

I don't want to hear about gun control until this is fixed:


... I am sharing this story because I am Adam Lanza’s mother. I am Dylan Klebold’s and Eric Harris’s mother. I am James Holmes’s mother. I am Jared Loughner’s mother. I am Seung-Hui Cho’s mother. And these boys—and their mothers—need help. In the wake of another horrific national tragedy, it’s easy to talk about guns. But it’s time to talk about mental illness...

Thinking the Unthinkable (http://anarchistsoccermom.blogspot.com/2012_12_01_archive.html)

The situation outlined in this piece is unconscionable.

[Tifosi24]

I don't want to hear about gun control until this is fixed:



Thinking the Unthinkable (http://anarchistsoccermom.blogspot.com/2012_12_01_archive.html)

The situation outlined in this piece is unconscionable.

Very good piece. I laid out my thoughts earlier in the thread, but this reinforces it. There are gun control issues that need to be addressed, but until you fix the mentally ill it won't stop. The numbers might just be smaller.

[Elmo T]

It's getting harder and harder to stay quiet on this...

This x10.

Between FB posts by extremists on both sides - I've "turned off" (or whatever you call it) several friends because I couldn't take rhetoric anymore. :yuck:

I jumped around the news after the President spoke last night. By the time I heard the second talking head on Fox News, I heard the words "the President's disturbing speech" and then conversation turned to assumptions about unilateral presidential action without regard.... blah blah blah. Turned them off too.

I don't know that any ONE person or ONE group is smart enough to fix this societal problem. I don't know that there is ONE fix. Call me naive, but if we don't work collectively on this - top to bottom - then there is not the slightly chance of change.

[dando]

I don't know that any ONE person or ONE group is smart enough to fix this societal problem. I don't know that there is ONE fix. Call me naive, but if we don't work collectively on this - top to bottom - then there is not the slightly chance of change.

This.

-Kevin

[Indy]

It's going to take a culture of cooperation, including gun control, better mental health care, etc., but it is also going to take a cultural change in the way we deal with fear. I am not convinced that video games and movies are the problem, when clearly every other country has access to the same media and content but none have our rates of gun violence. But we have a culture here of deep-seated fears, to the point of outright paranoia, that is, I think, a product of our history. Having to fight for independence, being the last frontier, facing powerful national enemies in a 20th century that was one long war, all left us as a country of fighters. Add in our "law of the jungle" economic system and the melting pot that we are, and in the end most Americans fear most other Americans almost as much as foreign threats. It is this environment that activates the fight or flight instincts within us, and if we are going to fight, we want to be armed. At the most basic level we are ignoring our Christian religion and the basic precepts of western civilization, and we are reverting to animal impulses. We are turning off our reasoning and allowing fear to control us.

[Indy]

And, by the way, the answer to changing culture is education. A friend asked me yesterday why I so radically changed me views in my 20's, and the answer was 6 years of schooling and foreign travel. I was simply ignorant before I had those experiences. Americans are very, very ignorant. How you break down their insularity and mistrust of education I do not know, but that will be the key to joining the 21st century.

[Andrew Longman]

The situation outlined in this piece is unconscionable.True, as I mentioned up thread. But if you DO find yourself in a similar situation I doubt you would have guns in the house, especially without gun locks, or take your disturbed kid target shooting to learn how to handle guns. I don't want to blame the victim but even without gun control, people need to be responsible about the risks.

[Elmo T]

I've worked for 20+ years in fire prevention and suppression. Our fire death rate is awful compared to those in other industrialized nationals. Our fire death rate rivals many third world countries. So we ask why??

As a society -

It is our ignorance of the problem.

It is our indifference toward the problem.

It is our acceptance of the problem.

We accept that the fires will occur and we focus on response to NOT prevention of the fires.

We oppose gov't regulations (intrusions) that would mitigate the damage - opposition to sprinkler ordinances, fire code enforcement.

We (the fire service) have failed to provide proper fire education that changes people's behavior.

We (the fire service) have failed to provide the support mechanisms to assist people in need prior to the emergency. We wait for the fire and then we put it out.

Most fires are caused by the action or inaction on the part of a human. These fires are preventable. That said, some fires are NOT preventable and then we must rely on the response to limit the damage.

The government sets the acceptable level of fire protection in your community. The government is directed by their constituency.

When we (the people) decide we want things to be different, only then can we effect the changes.

I see so many parallels here. No quick fix. No one size fits all. But when we decide we have the will....

[cameraman]

True, as I mentioned up thread. But if you DO find yourself in a similar situation I doubt you would have guns in the house, especially without gun locks, or take your disturbed kid target shooting to learn how to handle guns. I don't want to blame the victim but even without gun control, people need to be responsible about the risks.

Minor issue being that no one knows if the shooter in this case showed any of those problems. The fact is that currently no one knows jack about what happened in the shooter's life up until he started killing people. It sounds like mother & son were estranged from the ex-husband & second son.

[datachicane]

The founding fathers were pretty sharp guys. As products of the Enlightenment, they did their best to apply rational analysis to the problems of the day.

There's certainly some ambiguity as to whether the 2nd amendment was intended as an authorization of the National Guard or unfettered ownership of firearms by the citizenry.

Even if we accept the latter, however, consider this: That decision would have been made after weighing the risks and benefits of the various alternative as they existed at the time. They didn't pull the idea out of a hat, it wasn't some dogmatic preconception, it was a product of analysis. Anything else would have been anathema to those guys. Clearly, in the 21st century there have been demonstrably significant shifts in those benefits and risks. I find it impossible to believe that the founding fathers would look at our increasingly frequent blood sacrifice at the altar of their 200+ year old analysis and give it the big thumbs up.

[nrc]

And, by the way, the answer to changing culture is education. A friend asked me yesterday why I so radically changed me views in my 20's, and the answer was 6 years of schooling and foreign travel. I was simply ignorant before I had those experiences. Americans are very, very ignorant. How you break down their insularity and mistrust of education I do not know, but that will be the key to joining the 21st century.

Dismissing people who disagree with you as "ignorant" is no way to foster a "culture of cooperation". Plenty of educated people disagree with you. They simply value their freedoms differently.

Many who think they've found the answers in their twenties find that age and experience bring wisdom that leads them in surprising directions.

[Insomniac]

I don't want to hear about gun control until this is fixed:



Thinking the Unthinkable (http://anarchistsoccermom.blogspot.com/2012_12_01_archive.html)

The situation outlined in this piece is unconscionable.


Very good piece. I laid out my thoughts earlier in the thread, but this reinforces it. There are gun control issues that need to be addressed, but until you fix the mentally ill it won't stop. The numbers might just be smaller.

I'd like to think that we could do more than one thing at once.

[Andrew Longman]

Minor issue being that no one knows if the shooter in this case showed any of those problems.True. Some details are out but lack substantiation. Still, you and others elsewhere have linked that story as being relevant, which is believable since only pretty messed up people shoot 27 people.

So, if you DO have a mentally messed up child or family member it is still is your responsibility to keep your guns from doing harm to others. Regardless of the other facts, it remains true that the poor mother's own guns killed her and others and that didn't have to happen. Adam surely could have found his own guns but it would have been harder and may have tipped others to his plans.

[Gnam]

I've worked for 20+ years in fire prevention and suppression. Our fire death rate is awful compared to those in other industrialized nationals. Our fire death rate rivals many third world countries.

I see so many parallels here. No quick fix. No one size fits all. But when we decide we have the will....
I had a similar thought comparing the ingredients for a fire to those of a mass shooting.

Heat + Fuel + Oxidizer = Fire

Trigger + Crazy + Gun = Mass Shooting

Remove or reduce any of the ingredients and the reaction can't get started.

[Elmo T]

I had a similar thought comparing the ingredients for a fire to those of a mass shooting.


Someone else has had the same idea - but equating the LACK of fire deaths in schools. Very good point...

Active shooters in schools: The enemy is denial (http://www.policeone.com/active-shooter/articles/2058168-Lt-Col-Dave-Grossman-to-cops-The-enemy-is-denial/)


“How many kids have been killed by school fire in all of North America in the past 50 years? Kids killed... school fire... North America... 50 years... How many? Zero. That’s right. Not one single kid has been killed by school fire anywhere in North America in the past half a century. Now, how many kids have been killed by school violence?”

[Indy]

Dismissing people who disagree with you as "ignorant" is no way to foster a "culture of cooperation". Plenty of educated people disagree with you. They simply value their freedoms differently.

Many who think they've found the answers in their twenties find that age and experience bring wisdom that leads them in surprising directions.

I was not dismissing you or calling you ignorant. Off course I think people will come around to some of my perspectives on things if they also share some knowledge and experiences with me. But it is equally true that I have much to learn and may change my perspectives accordingly.

My point is that many Americans are ignorant, never mind the politics. How can we expect good ideas and reasonable choices by people of all points of view when the average American can't name the vice president? This is really THE issue our democracy faces, IMHO. We either educate our citizenry or we say hello to Idiocracy.

[Andrew Longman]

Very good point...Very.

And a very helpful way to think of it... with empirical evidence to support it.

Helpful I mean if you are interested first and foremost in protecting lives.

Not sure I agree with every last suggestion but it frames the risk and solutions in the right perspective. We wouldn't accept higher fire risk and take action to prevent and prepare for it. Why wouldn't we view sources of violence the same way?

[Tifosi24]

I'd like to think that we could do more than one thing at once.

I would like to think so, but given the current climate, we can barely get one thing done at once. My main point was more that, to me personally, the issue of mental health is the primary cause of these problems. A sane person is not likely committ these acts. That being said, I agree this has to also be coupled with responsible gun control measures.

The ambiguity of the 2nd Amendment speaks a lot to the character of those that wrote the Constitution. It brings up a great quote from Alexander Hamilton, that can be found in his recent biography by Ron Chernow (great book by the way), when he was asked by a contemporary why a reference to God or Creator was omitted from the Constitution and Bill of Rights, and Hamilton's response was that we forgot. Chernow believes Hamilton's response was clearly a lie because the discussions regarding these documents were not haphazard. No references to God or Creator were made for a reason, just the same way that the 2nd Amendment is intentionally vague. I would argue that the drafters of the Bill of Rights believed guns were an important part of a free nation, but they could not reach consensus on what it should be, and left it for clarification in the future.

[Elmo T]

Not sure I agree with every last suggestion but it frames the risk and solutions in the right perspective.

Agreed. Some of the ideas are off base IMHO - but conceptually right on. While we have a serious fire problem, there are places we've made progress in fire safety. Schools being one of them. Memories fade, but look at Our Lady of Angels (http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2008-11-29/news/chi-our-lady-of-the-angels-fire-students-killed_1_parents-and-firefighters-detail-angels).



On Dec. 1, 1958, a fire consumed Our Lady of the Angels grade school on the West Side of Chicago, killing 92 children and three nuns.

Horrible horrible stories from that incident :(. Things changed after that fire.

Or look at children's sleepwear. Way back when, kids' PJ catching fire was a huge problem. Nowadays, look at the tags on your kids PJ's - required to be fire retardant.

IF we want things to change - we can make it happen.

[Insomniac]

A friend asked me today why when one guy tries and fails to explode a bomb in his shoe we all will forever have to take our shoes off to fly, but countless people including kids get mowed down by guns again and again and we as a nation have been unwilling to do anything meaningful about it.

The only answers I can think of is we don't have a constitutionally protected right to bear shoes and no one will make money if we keep our shoes on. Seems like a pretty poor excuse. Just sayn'

Keep in mind two things. No one took our shoes away and the TSA had the power to make that change without approval from Congress. No one could really stop them.

If someone could unilaterally make changes to gun laws, it would've been done by now (and probably quite often in the past).

[Racing Truth]

Hot new idea: Teach kids to emulate Japanese WWII pilots! (http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2012/12/17/there-s-little-we-can-do-to-prevent-another-massacre.html):gomer::gomer:

I'd also like us to encourage people to gang rush shooters, rather than following their instincts to hide; if we drilled it into young people that the correct thing to do is for everyone to instantly run at the guy with the gun, these sorts of mass shootings would be less deadly, because even a guy with a very powerful weapon can be brought down by 8-12 unarmed bodies piling on him at once.

Conversely, why not make every kid read Hunger Games (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hunger_Games) and emulate Katniss Everdeen (the main character)? Boom, I'm now qualified to be a pundit in this country!:gomer::gomer:

[Racing Truth]

Deeper and deeper... (http://news.yahoo.com/tennessee-considers-training-arming-schoolteachers-protect-against-shootings-192556978--politics.html):(:shakehead

Sadly, I thought on Fri. that this was more likely than the reverse (tougher gun regs.). And for good reason, perhaps.

Part of the problem is the urban-rural divide in this country. It's almost two different sub-cultures at times, with neither side understanding or trusting the other. I'm not sure, sadly, that passing meaningful gun laws is wise, given that 40% of America would feel under cultural attack.

[nrc]

While school children obviously can't be involved, part of the problem with these events is that people really do become sheep for the slaughter. People need to understand that they should escape if possible and try to hide in a secure place if not. But if they're discovered they are most probably dead. Being prepared to fight is their last best option.

Some called it controversial when Houston distributed this video urging people to fight, but it's only as a last resort.

5VcSwejU2D0

This goes back to some of the other points made. Every school goes through regular fire drills so everyone knows what to do in the event of a fire. How many have ever had an active shooter drill? While you certainly wouldn't want to put children through that, teachers could do it with the help of law enforcement on one of the childrens' days off.

[dando]

This goes back to some of the other points made. Every school goes through regular fire drills so everyone knows what to do in the event of a fire. How many have ever had an active shooter drill? While you certainly wouldn't want to put children through that, teachers could do it with the help of law enforcement on one of the childrens' days off.

Sadly they also do lockdown drills a few times each year. :(

-Kevin

[Indy]

And we would thus traumatize our children and leave them to live in fear rather than simply protect them with reasonable laws. :shakehead


Deeper and deeper... (http://news.yahoo.com/tennessee-considers-training-arming-schoolteachers-protect-against-shootings-192556978--politics.html):(:shakehead

Sadly, I thought on Fri. that this was more likely than the reverse (tougher gun regs.). And for good reason, perhaps.

Part of the problem is the urban-rural divide in this country. It's almost two different sub-cultures at times, with neither side understanding or trusting the other. I'm not sure, sadly, that passing meaningful gun laws is wise, given that 40% of America would feel under cultural attack.

The "sub-culture" that is rural and gun-loving contains many who already have chips on their shoulders for just about any issue you can think of. So we have to accomodate those attitudes rather than do what it takes to have a better country? If some must be dragged kicking and screaming into the 21st Century (or 20th, or 19th), then so be it. Culture change is difficult, but appeasement of dysfunction is not the answer.

[Indy]

By the way, thanks to the bosses for letting this conversation continue. This is not a run-of-the-mill issue, despite its political implications, and I am glad we can share opinions. The people on this site are remarkably intelligent, and I want to know what they are thinking.

[TKGAngel]

This goes back to some of the other points made. Every school goes through regular fire drills so everyone knows what to do in the event of a fire. How many have ever had an active shooter drill? While you certainly wouldn't want to put children through that, teachers could do it with the help of law enforcement on one of the childrens' days off.

And from what the media is reporting, it sounds like these teachers followed the protocols, including getting the kids in closets/cabinets/bathrooms, barricading the doors and (one thing I never thought of) not opening the doors until the cops slid their badges underneath to prove they were the good guys.

[dando]

Post-game comments by the Winthrop boys hoops coach after the game with tOSU last night.

http://rivals.yahoo.com/video/college-basketball/Winthrop-coach-comments-on-school-shooting-1111235

:thumbup: :thumbup:

Spot. ****ing. On.

-Kevin

[Insomniac]

Hot new idea: Teach kids to emulate Japanese WWII pilots! (http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2012/12/17/there-s-little-we-can-do-to-prevent-another-massacre.html):gomer::gomer:


Conversely, why not make every kid read Hunger Games (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hunger_Games) and emulate Katniss Everdeen (the main character)? Boom, I'm now qualified to be a pundit in this country!:gomer::gomer:

It's tough to do this in these situations. You need a group of people together and everyone involved has to accept they may not live. I don't think a theater full of adults rushed the shooter in Aurora.

[Insomniac]

This goes back to some of the other points made. Every school goes through regular fire drills so everyone knows what to do in the event of a fire. How many have ever had an active shooter drill? While you certainly wouldn't want to put children through that, teachers could do it with the help of law enforcement on one of the childrens' days off.

I was just thinking about it yesterday when they were talking about all these drills they do. Lockdown drills? I left high school in 1995 and I only did 2 drills my whole life. Fire drills and school bus evacuation. (I went to school in Massachusetts and West Virginia.) It is sad where we are now.

[Insomniac]

Part of the problem is the urban-rural divide in this country. It's almost two different sub-cultures at times, with neither side understanding or trusting the other. I'm not sure, sadly, that passing meaningful gun laws is wise, given that 40% of America would feel under cultural attack.

We're at a point where everything is divided. It's the business of the day for each side to disagree with each other no matter what. Everything is controversial and everyone is wrong and everyone is evil. It does not matter what the issue is or even your previous stance. If the other side wants it, you don't.

Just 2 weeks ago Sen. McConnell proposed legislation, Sen. Reid agreed to it and Sen. McConnell blocked it.

[dando]

I was just thinking about it yesterday when they were talking about all these drills they do. Lockdown drills? I left high school in 1995 and I only did 2 drills my whole life. Fire drills and school bus evacuation. (I went to school in Massachusetts and West Virginia.) It is sad where we are now.

We never did any such drills when I was in elementary or high school. The occasional fire drill, yes. Lockdown? Nope. I can still recall to this day in April 1974 when the tornado outbreak happened and wiped out Xenia, OH. I spent hours sitting in the hallway that day with my head b/w my knees. Every so often I would glance over @ the glass doors @ the end of the hallway watching it pour. That's as close to anything like Sandy Hook I can imagine. I can only wonder what it was like during the Cuban Missile Crisis.

I sent a note to the girls' teachers, principle and guidance counselor thanking them for what they do on a daily basis.

http://linapps.s3.amazonaws.com/linapps/photomojo/wtnh.com/photos/2012/12/g5492-signs-of-support-in-newtown/110768-hug-a-teacher-today-778a4.jpg

-Kevin

[Andrew Longman]

This is a note I got from my youngest's principal about how they are handling it in this pre-K through 8 school in rural NJ with about 250 kids total. Note 24 drills in a 9 month school year, many of them lock down. I just worry what they are learning and not learning while all these drills are going on. FWIW, this has been going on for years and my kids seem non-plused by it. But the HS had a bomb threat last Thursday and it basically locked down the school for the rest of the day, that night (all evening events cancelled) until morning bell the next day. That pissed off my daughter who had to leave all her books and stuff in the school and go home.


Dear Parents and Family Members,

In light of the recent tragedy in Connecticut, I felt the need to update you on how the students have been doing and reassure you of our commitment to the safety of our children.

In preparation for school this week, over the weekend the staff was briefed on guidelines and expectations for talking with children. On Monday students were very quiet, but today more children wanted to share what they know and ask questions about what happened. Teachers handled questions and conversations in an age appropriate way with the main message that this event was a very rare occurrence, we are safe here in our school which is locked, and we practice many drills to help keep us safe.

Today, we held one of our monthly security drills which was a lockdown. As usual the Frenchtown police were invited and participated in the drill. Today's drill was different in that the students and staff were told of the drill in advance to help alleviate any anxiety that it might have generated. Parents should know that our students and staff have been practicing a variety of fire and security drills with a minimum of 24 drills conducted and evaluated each year. In addition we are lucky to have a strong relationship with our police force that has officers on school grounds every day and annually works with the school reviewing security procedures.

One of the most important things we can do for our children is talking to them when they have anxieties in their lives. I encourage you to use the guide for talking with children about this type of tragedy that is located on the front page of our school website. Some parents have already commented on how helpful it was to them this weekend.

If you have any specific concerns or questions about our school or the information above please contact me or see me at pick up or dismissal.

Kindest Regards,

Dave Bailey

[Andrew Longman]

By the way, thanks to the bosses for letting this conversation continue. And thanks to all of us for playing nice. And being smart.

[Gnam]

Note 24 drills in a 9 month school year, many of them lock down.
Dang, that seems like a lot. I remember standing in a parking lot a few times, but I don't think I've been in 24 drills total, let alone annually. Did they start doing that after Columbine?

Takes stranger danger to a whole new level.