RIP, Stormin' Norman

[dando]

http://www.cnn.com/2012/12/27/us/schwarzkopf-obit/index.html?hpt=hp_t1

:(

We may lose him and GW Sr. in the same week. :( I don't care for politics, but they led this nation through a difficult time.

-Kevin

[Andrew Longman]

I wish to give the dead the respect they deserve. He planned and executed a nearly perfect campaign in Gulf War I.

But the truce he negotiated was too soon, allowed the Republican Guard to escape, and allowed helicopters to massacre Saddams own people. Combined that directly led to Gulf War II.

And his dad thoroughly botched the investigation into the Lindburg case which has led to decades of unanswered questions.

They both are to be thanked and honored for their service, but do not deserve highest praise.

[RaceGrrl]

He's a hero in my book. Godspeed, General.

[Andrew Longman]

He's a hero in my book. Godspeed, General.Just to be clear I don't necessarily disagree. People should be judged by the effect of their body of work and not by a single act.

Unfortunately in the case of both father and son a single act had a huge impact on the effects of their body of work.

But I will say Godspeed too.

I will also say the nation needed someone exactly like the general in 1991. Absolutely.

[nrc]

I don't believe that Norman Schwarzkopf's career would be viewed more positively today if he had decided to forge on into the quagmire of regime change and nation building - if he even had the authority. That's all hindsight.

Norman Schwarzkopf served with distinction on two tours of Viet Nam. He won two Silver Stars along the way. He liberated a conquered nation with minimal loss of American lives. We and the rest of the world are eternally in his debt. God rest his soul.

[Gnam]

The truce he negotiated was too soon, allowed the Republican Guard to escape, and allowed helicopters to massacre Saddams own people. Combined that directly led to Gulf War II.
In hindsight, the terms of the surrender were unfortunate, but securing the safety of the Iraqi people was not his mission. It was to make sure Saddam stayed in his box and did not attack his neighbors.

The decision to allow the Republican Guard to escape was made by the Joint Chiefs and the President. They wanted a quick exit more than they wanted Saddam dead. Also the negative publicity from the 'Highway of Death' episode made further operations hard to justify.

IMO, his use of 'overwhelming force' in the air war and ground assault saved American lives. RIP. :(

[KLang]

RIP General.

[Napoleon]

And his dad thoroughly botched the investigation into the Lindburg case which has led to decades of unanswered questions.

I did not know that. You learn something new every day.

[Rex Karz]

I wish to give the dead the respect they deserve. He planned and executed a nearly perfect campaign in Gulf War I.

But the truce he negotiated was too soon, allowed the Republican Guard to escape, and allowed helicopters to massacre Saddams own people. Combined that directly led to Gulf War II.

And his dad thoroughly botched the investigation into the Lindburg case which has led to decades of unanswered questions.

They both are to be thanked and honored for their service, but do not deserve highest praise.

Yes, he did his job in Gulf War I by defeating the Iraqi forces. But remember that the commander in chief, Bush I, is the one who ordered the halt to the ground attack. General Norman did not order the halt.

Second, the story I heard in the wake of Gulf War I was that after the stoppage of the assault, Norman called up the White House and asked for guidance in the upcoming talks with the Iraq forces. All he got was silence. There was a second and maybe a third call. Still more silence. Finally General Normal talked to some sub-assistant secretary to a third assistant secretary somewhere and got some vague instructions as to handle things. Perhaps this is creative memory on General Norman's part (or mine).

But in the end, war should be executed by the warriors and peace should be executed by the statesmen. Norman did his part in the war part. If the story I noted is true, he should have either gotten better instructions from the White House or should not have been part of the truce talks.

It should be noted that during Gulf War II that after the troops arrived in Baghdad they pretty much stood around and didn't do much as looting broke out before moving in and restoring order to things. Like father, like son, I suppose.

[Andrew Longman]

The decision to allow the Republican Guard to escape was made by the Joint Chiefs and the President. They wanted a quick exit more than they wanted Saddam dead. Also the negative publicity from the 'Highway of Death' episode made further operations hard.
Correct. But it was also his recommendation. If the overall purpose was to kick Saddams out of Kuwait and reduce his threat in the region then there is no excuse for letting the Rupublican Guard slip away when they had them boxed in. That was clear at the time, not in hindsight, and did not require regime change or going to Bagdad. As for the helicopters, Norman himself said it was a mistake to allow them and that he wasn't even thinking about attack copters but instead helicopters to ferry wounded, supplies, aid, etc.

Again. He led an almost perfect campaign and he was a military leader badly needed at the time and served with great distinction.

[Andrew Longman]

I did not know that. You learn something new every day.Oh yeah. In fact the corpse Charles identified as his son was so decomposed that the coroner could determine the sex. Hauptmann definitely had some of the ransom money but beyond that there are a million questions about his involvement in the actual kidnapping. At least two people claim with some credibilty, to be Lindburg's baby, raised by the kidnappers (one certainly was raised by a mistress of Capone). Researchers have since learned that all the evidence was long ago lost by the state police, some even before the trial.

[Rex Karz]

Correct. But it was also his recommendation. If the overall purpose was to kick Saddams out of Kuwait and reduce his threat in the region then there is no excuse for letting the Rupublican Guard slip away when they had them boxed in. That was clear at the time, not in hindsight, and did not require regime change or going to Bagdad. As for the helicopters, Norman himself said it was a mistake to allow them and that he wasn't even thinking about attack copters but instead helicopters to ferry wounded, supplies, aid, etc.

Again. He led an almost perfect campaign and he was a military leader badly needed at the time and served with great distinction.

In war, the object is to kill people for military purposes. Mass murder is just killing people.

Yes, we could have called in the B-52s to carpet bomb the Highway of Death and utterly obliterated the Republican Guard. But when we were approaching the 100-hour mark I know I thought, and perhaps those in the CIA and others giving advice to President Bush I, were saying that Saddam's days as leader of Iraq were numbered. Who among us thought he'd still be there 10 years or so later? Wish I had known the odds at Vegas on that and plunked down my entire 401(k) on that one.

But as Bush I said at the time, the coalition was organized with the goal of removing Iraqi forces from Kuwait. It was not organized to remove Saddam from power. As time went on, the decision to halt military forces wasn't he best of decisions. Yet at the time it seemed to be the best one.

If only we could all see into the future and know the consequences of all of our decisions, whether they be big or small.

[Andrew Longman]

Rex, here is really solid read on the campaign. The short of it is Norman was perhaps surprised by the speed the Marines pushed the Republican Guard to the west, effectively pushing them out of the trap set for them. This was to the north of the highway of death and the carnage there was not part of the planned destruction of the guard. http://www.rand.org/content/dam/rand/pubs/monograph_reports/MR775/MR775.chap5.pdf