Waco, Texas

[Gnam]

http://www.cnn.com/2013/04/17/us/texas-explosion/index.html

Fertilizer plant explosion near Waco Texas. :eek:
Feels like the country is under siege.

TKSB8IEpTaU

[Kiwifan]

Kia Kaha USA, Kia Kaha. (Stay strong)

Been out in the bush for the last week and to hear all of this sad news tonight......

Rusty.

[KLang]

From a CNN story:


The Wednesday night blast shook houses 50 miles away and measured as a 2.1-magnitude seismic event, according to the United States Geological Survey.

:saywhat:

[Elmo T]

Link to fire service related site with video and emergency radio traffic (both real time and recorded).

Statter 911 (http://statter911.com/2013/04/17/major-explosion-at-fertilizer-plant-north-of-waco-texas-part-of-town-leveled-reports-firefighters-had-responded-for-a-rekindle/) - [edit] site is very slow this AM - must be getting slammed.

Looks like an ammonium nitrate explosion - didn't appear to be "just" a tank explosion. Subsequent releases of anhydrous ammonia are just compounding what must be a messy scene.

[dando]

Quality parenting @ it's finest. :saywhat: :shakehead

-Kevin

[NismoZ]

Been dropping pins at Google Maps in both Boston and West and "walking" the area. Gives enhanced emotion and understanding when you see how close the main tank at that plant is to the schools, the apartment complex, the houses and that poor nursing home. In Boston you can go to the exact spots of the explosions, see the mailbox, see tourists and shoppers enjoying Boyalston St., "walk" to Lord & Taylor and see the spot where the cameras MAY have spotted the bomber. You SEE it...but it's hard to imagine what actually happened there...in either place.:(

[Indy]

Lax regulation is kewl.

[Gnam]

Some daylight photos here:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2310825/West-Texas-fertilizer-plant-explosion-leaves-dead-100-injured.html

That plant was in the middle of town. :saywhat:

[Napoleon]

Dear God.

[Tifosi24]

Clearly, zoning does not exist in that town. It almost looks like there is another school, possibly a high school, near the site too, but it could just be a church or something else. If the explosion happens six hours earlier when those kids are being evacuated because of a fire, I don't even want to think about what would have happened. I don't know if the fertilizer plant pre-dates the school, but if it does, that raises some serious questions regarding the intelligence of the school board that approved it.

Edit: I brought it up on google maps, it is the high school, So, it looks like, within a quarter mile, there was a nursing home, a middle school, a high school, and a city park. The school playground is less than 1000ft, and the city park less than 500 ft, from silos and buildings where I assume the explosion occurred. Unbelievable, and if you go about a mile further north, there are no structures and still efficient access to road and rail. Zoning isn't just a concept for 19th Century German city planners.

[Elmo T]

On the zoning - all moot if these places have always been there - known as "existing non-conforming". And in most of these types of towns, that is exactly the circumstance. Nearly every old mill or factory town is the same. Maybe it is/was automobiles, steel, railyards, paper mills, or fertilizer - but the towns are always packed right in.

Latest info on responders:



While not official (we consider "official" based upon what is posted by USFA/NFFF) - details from reliable and involved fire service leadership at the scene in West, Texas (20 miles north of Waco) are indicating that, at this time it appears that: 5 West Firefighters, 4 EMS Medics, 1 Off Duty Fire Captain from Dallas (who was in town at the time and was assisting) and 1 unconfirmed (unknown agency at this point) Firefighter have been killed in the Line of Duty. Active search and rescue operations are continuing.

[Tifosi24]

On the zoning - all moot if these places have always been there - known as "existing non-conforming". And in most of these types of towns, that is exactly the circumstance. Nearly every old mill or factory town is the same. Maybe it is/was automobiles, steel, railyards, paper mills, or fertilizer - but the towns are always packed right in.

Latest info on responders:

I understand the grandfathered issues, but it doesn't look like the schools are 75 years old. Assuming the plant is the existing use, then why would anyone site schools next to a fertiziler plant.

[Elmo T]

I understand the grandfathered issues, but it doesn't look like the schools are 75 years old. Assuming the plant is the existing use, then why would anyone site schools next to a fertiziler plant.

Because there is cheap open land available next to said plant?

[NismoZ]

Little doubt the town expanded TO the plant...and schools often get the cheaper leftover properties...maybe even sold by the plant owners? Wouldn't be surprised. Look at the first street to the west of the plant...those homes have the giant power line towers right in their front yards! How would you like one of THOSE draped over your roof after a Texas tornado!? Talk about an "accident" in the making.:shakehead Only ONE reason those houses are even there...CHEAP! The utility itself likely was the land " developer." Of course nobody put a gun to the head of the buyers, either. After seeing the remains of that apartment complex I can't believe only 15 fatalities...unless the whole place was evacuated prior to the blast.

[NismoZ]

Bingo, Elmo...you beat me to it with far fewer words!:)

[nrc]

It appears that the plant was right at the city limits. Most of the plant, including the main storage tanks, is outside the city limit.

Kind of a creepy view...

http://goo.gl/maps/AJK6f

[gjc2]

I understand the grandfathered issues, but it doesn't look like the schools are 75 years old. Assuming the plant is the existing use, then why would anyone site schools next to a fertiziler plant.

Until the Oklahoma City bombing I had no idea that fertilizer could be explosive. I would have thought that it would be malodors, but nothing more.

[chop456]

Some daylight photos here:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2310825/West-Texas-fertilizer-plant-explosion-leaves-dead-100-injured.html



Jernalism. Git some. :gomer:


Damage: One resident shared these images on Facebook of smashed windows and a room filled with earth following the explosion on Wednesday evening

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2013/04/18/article-2310825-195F9DD7000005DC-136_470x660.jpg

[Gnam]

Is that earth or insulation from the ceiling?

[chop456]

Insulation. And stupid editors.

[emjaya]

Some daylight photos here:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2310825/West-Texas-fertilizer-plant-explosion-leaves-dead-100-injured.html

That plant was in the middle of town. :saywhat:




Records also reveal that only six fertilizer plants in Texas have been inspected by the Occupational Safety and Health Administration in the last five years, while other reports show the agency is so understaffed that they can only carry out such checks every 129 years.

[Elmo T]

Having worked with OSHA folks, they readily said most of their work is via "media referrals". A media referral? That is the inspector watching the AM news, seeing something bad (explosion, worker death, etc), and heading out to that scene.

[datachicane]

Gotta keep gubmint off the back of industry. :(

[cameraman]

There is a reason companies have been flocking to Texas. It is their much hyped "favorable regulatory environment".:irked:

[G.]

Records also reveal that only six fertilizer plants in Texas have been inspected by the Occupational Safety and Health Administration in the last five years, while other reports show the agency is so understaffed that they can only carry out such checks every 129 years.

When was OSHA formed?

[Elmo T]

Comments note firefighter standing watch until remains are located:

http://i35.tinypic.com/2vxonbr.jpg



Responding fire truck:

http://i33.tinypic.com/nz71z.jpg

[Don Quixote]

:(

[dando]

:(

[NismoZ]

Texas paramedic arrested in West, Texas fertilizer plant explosion investigation!? Had bomb-making materials. The (man caused?) disaster is now a criminal investigation. Gee, hard to "regulate" that OR blame the state if that guy had anything to do with the fire. Interesting timing...wonder if he knew Suspects 1 & 2!?

[TrueBrit]

Texas paramedic arrested in West, Texas fertilizer plant explosion investigation!? Had bomb-making materials. The (man caused?) disaster is now a criminal investigation. Gee, hard to "regulate" that OR blame the state if that guy had anything to do with the fire. Interesting timing...wonder if he knew Suspects 1 & 2!?

I'd say it's pretty easy to "regulate" the fact they they had waaaaaaaaaay more ammonium nitrate than was safe...something the state would have known if they'd actually bothered to inspect the bloody place to begin with....

[nrc]

I'd say it's pretty easy to "regulate" the fact they they had waaaaaaaaaay more ammonium nitrate than was safe...something the state would have known if they'd actually bothered to inspect the bloody place to begin with....

The State knew how much ammonium nitrate they had. I would be surprised if the amount that they had was unusual. Farmers buy the stuff by the ton.

[Elmo T]

something the state would have known if they'd actually bothered to inspect the bloody place to begin with....

And when the Fire Marshals attempt to inspect:

Fire Marshal: Inspections Refused Since West Blast (http://www.manufacturing.net/news/2013/08/fire-marshal-inspections-refused-since-west-blast?goback=.gde_167203_member_269675493#!)


AUSTIN, Texas (AP) — Five facilities in Texas with large quantities of the same fertilizer chemical that fueled the deadly plant explosion in West have turned away state fire marshal inspectors since the blast, investigators said Monday.

A railway operator that hauls hazardous materials across Texas was also said to have rebuffed a state request to share data since the April explosion at West Fertilizer Co. that killed 15 people and injured 200 others.

[datachicane]

I promise you one other thing. I'll get up every day to make government as inconsequential in your life as I can make it.


You can't make an omelet without breaking a few eggs. Apparently. :flaming:

[Andrew Longman]

You can't make an omelet without breaking a few eggs. Apparently. :flaming:I have many clients who do very dangerous work and all of them literally put safety before anything else. I once had a mine president stop me in mid-sentence to tell me to tie my shoe because he didn't want me to trip (I was seated at the time in his office in a one-on-one meeting). They would be and are sick if any employee doesn't go home to his/her family at the end of the day. Regardless of their profitabilty managers do not get bonuses if anyone is killed or seriously hurt -- because nothing is more important than safety. And they would welcome advice from anyone, including and especially government inspectors, if it will make them safer.

Rationally, why would you do anything else? Unless of course you have contempt prior to investigation to anything to do with the government and the arrogant belief that you always know what's best for you and don't need any help.

[cameraman]

Ever heard of Trigonox? It is a series of organic peroxides that are used to manufacture polypropylene products. It acts as a catalyst to cleave very long chain polypropylene molecules into shorter ones with more product friendly characteristics. It's interesting chemistry. They are also extremely unstable. If they are allowed to warm up to room temp they will start to degrade. That degradation will set up a chain reaction and once it starts, cooling it off again doesn't stop the reaction. When it gets to 95°F it has a nasty habit of exploding. So one of our local entrepreneurs decided to store a few pallets of the stuff in a local refrigerated warehouse. Not an expensive hazardous materials warehouse, just your basic produce warehouse. Guess what, the refrigeration failed. There were no alarms or back up systems. The warehouse had no backup plans or capabilities of any kind. As a result the Salt Lake Fire Department Haz-Mat team was fighting the ensuing fire and doing controlled burns to dispose of the remainder degrading material for the better part of a week.

There is no shortage of companies that will cut any and every corner to save a nickel, safety be damned.

[datachicane]

Rationally, why would you do anything else? Unless of course you have contempt prior to investigation to anything to do with the government and the arrogant belief that you always know what's best for you and don't need any help.


AUSTIN, Texas (AP) — Five facilities in Texas with large quantities of the same fertilizer chemical that fueled the deadly plant explosion in West have turned away state fire marshal inspectors since the blast, investigators said Monday.

A railway operator that hauls hazardous materials across Texas was also said to have rebuffed a state request to share data since the April explosion at West Fertilizer Co. that killed 15 people and injured 200 others.

There are plenty of businesses and business owners who consistently place the health and safety of their employees and the public above maximizing profits, no argument. There's demonstrably no shortage of the other kind either, unfortunately. Recognizing that isn't anti-business, just smart.

[Andrew Longman]

There is no shortage of companies that will cut any and every corner to save a nickel, safety be damned.Without a doubt.

But it is a pretty well established fact that a safe work environment is under control and hence inherently more efficient and less wasteful. An unsafe environment simply cannot be six-sigma or lean. Not even close.

There was a time when labor was so cheap and plentiful that it seemed to make sense for some people to not worry about killing people. But businesses also operated without telephones, computers, accounting and all sorts of other things that are now seen as pretty basic to a running a successful business.

I guess in a capitalistic economy it is best to let the dumb fail. People just shouldn't feel obligated to work for them or live next door waiting for the next disaster to happen.

[datachicane]

Assuming that people make the decisions they do for rational reasons is nearly always a mistake. Humans just aren't that bright, frankly.

[Andrew Longman]

Assuming that people make the decisions they do for rational reasons is nearly always a mistake. Humans just aren't that bright, frankly.no doubt. Too often they make decisions based on "principles". Logic and facts and practicality be damned.

[Gnam]

Listen, the first explosion could have happened to anyone. After the second town gets wiped off the map, you can bet things will change. I'm certain of it. :gomer:

[Elmo T]

Texas Drivers not Chemical Plants Required to Have Liability Insurance
(http://www.firehouse.com/news/11141856/texas-drivers-not-chemical-plants-required-to-have-liability-insurance?utm_source=FH+Newsday&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=CPS130829004)


Sept. 04--AUSTIN -- It's been almost five months since a fertilizer plant exploded in West, Texas, and it remains unclear whether anyone will push for a law requiring companies that handle explosive materials to carry liability insurance.

Even though motorists in Texas are required to purchase liability insurance, companies that handle tons of explosive ammonium nitrate are not.

The West Fertilizer Co. carried a minimal $1 million policy.

When 28 to 34 tons of ammonium nitrate exploded there on April 17, the blast killed 15, did an estimated $135 million in damage and left a debris field that was 2.5 miles in diameter, state Fire Marshal

[datachicane]

Gov. Rick Perry

There's still a land of freedom in America, freedom from over-taxation, freedom from over-litigation and freedom from over-regulation, and it's called Texas.


:shakehead:

[cameraman]

So if you don't carry liability insurance your business plan is to file for bankruptcy in the event of any large scale incident.:saywhat:

That's some seriously ****ed up **** but I'm thinking it is also far too common.

[nrc]

Texas Drivers not Chemical Plants Required to Have Liability Insurance
(http://www.firehouse.com/news/11141856/texas-drivers-not-chemical-plants-required-to-have-liability-insurance?utm_source=FH+Newsday&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=CPS130829004)


Even though motorists in Texas are required to purchase liability insurance, companies that handle tons of explosive ammonium nitrate are not.

That's untrue. You're required to prove financial responsibility. If you've got the money you can self-insure.


So if you don't carry liability insurance your business plan is to file for bankruptcy in the event of any large scale incident.:saywhat:

No. Many companies self-insure in the honest belief that they have funding to handle most scenarios. Nobody carries insurance to cover the worst possible scenario. Nobody could afford to drive or run a business if that were the expectation.

[cameraman]

If you own a car you must carry liability insurance in Utah. There are no exceptions and you can not self-insure.

[datachicane]

Nobody carries insurance to cover the worst possible scenario. Nobody could afford to drive or run a business if that were the expectation.

Forget 'worst possible scenarios'- there's a large gap between the real and calculable risks of driving a car, running an accounting firm, and, say, handling highly dangerous materials. Having your plant full of explosive material flattened is not an unforeseeable natural disaster, it's the very thing you expect, fear, and prepare to prevent in that business.

If your business model can't cover your real liabilities, your business model is broken- that's why there aren't freight companies shipping via rocket, among other things. Private profit at public risk may be the rule of the day, but only if we let it.

[Andrew Longman]

Private profit at public risk may be the rule of the day, but only if we let it.Can you say, "Too big to fail"? I knew you could. ;)

It is increasingly the basis of our economy. But it is now all too often the mantra of our "get the government out of my business" crowd too. Sorry boss if I am flirting with too much politics but I am surrounded five days a week with Gov Perry supporters of late. I am channelling Lewis Black lately. http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/wed-july-17-2013/back-in-black---new-york-vs--texas

[Napoleon]

It is increasingly the basis of our economy. But it is now all too often the mantra of our "get the government out of my business" crowd too. Sorry boss if I am flirting with too much politics but I am surrounded five days a week with Gov Perry supporters of late. I am channelling Lewis Black lately. http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/wed-july-17-2013/back-in-black---new-york-vs--texas


With the 50th anniversary of the March on Washington by, among others, MLK, Jr his civil rights stuff has been getting a lot of press (rightfully), but somewhere along the way I recall an interview or something with him where, in response to the Red/Socialist bating of the day he said something along the lines of -of course we have socialism, for the rich, capitalism is for the poor-. It has only gotten worse since.

[nrc]

Forget 'worst possible scenarios'- there's a large gap between the real and calculable risks of driving a car, running an accounting firm, and, say, handling highly dangerous materials. Having your plant full of explosive material flattened is not an unforeseeable natural disaster, it's the very thing you expect, fear, and prepare to prevent in that business.

This wasn't expected. There are thousands of facilities like this across the country and explosions are rare. If there was such tremendous risk why was a city allowed to grow right up to the property line? That plant was there for 50 years and everyone knew exactly what they did. How much will the city of West end up paying out for their negligence?

[datachicane]

The city of West has been there since 1892, the plant since 1962. Whether you feel the plant shouldn't have been built so close to the city, or whether you feel the city shouldn't have been able to grow so close to the plant (and, frankly, given the size of West 'grow' is a relative term), a bit more gubmint interference would have prevented it. Either way someone made a buck at the expense of public safety.

Accountants make errors- that's a reasonable risk, and carries a proportionate liability. The risk, and therefore the liability, is clearly higher if you're running an airline, a hospital, or a large engineering firm. The fact that failures are rare doesn't mean that the risk doesn't exist, it means that those risks are to some extent successfully addressed, in contrast to what happened in West. Really, there's a simple reason why this sort of industry is regulated in most places, and it's not part of some shadowy commie conspiracy.

[nrc]

The city of West has been there since 1892, the plant since 1962. Whether you feel the plant shouldn't have been built so close to the city, or whether you feel the city shouldn't have been able to grow so close to the plant (and, frankly, given the size of West 'grow' is a relative term), a bit more gubmint interference would have prevented it. Either way someone made a buck at the expense of public safety.

Almost everything close enough to be severely damaged was built after the plant was there including the apartments, nursing home, and the schools. I don't consider zoning to be interference when it's done when the property is platted.



Accountants make errors- that's a reasonable risk, and carries a proportionate liability. The risk, and therefore the liability, is clearly higher if you're running an airline, a hospital, or a large engineering firm. The fact that failures are rare doesn't mean that the risk doesn't exist, it means that those risks are to some extent successfully addressed, in contrast to what happened in West. Really, there's a simple reason why this sort of industry is regulated in most places, and it's not part of some shadowy commie conspiracy.

I never suggested that there wasn't a risk. Yes, there's risk and this was a tragedy, but one explosion with 15 deaths in 20 years among thousands of facilities doesn't represent the grave immediate risk that you're suggesting. They haven't even determined a cause for the fire or why it resulted in an explosion. There hasn't been a single finding that has revealed anything that would be best addressed through additional regulation.

[Elmo T]

There are so many nuances to this story - the actual facts aside. :rolleyes:

Risk management, acceptable risk, perceived risk. Gov't big brother or protector of the people?

What hits home for me is how much gov't do we really want? No one likes zoning - at least until their neighbor is trying to building 4 floors on their house OR they put the adult bookstore right next to the elementary school. Building and fire codes? Not in my place, but please don't let me die in a hotel fire OR a collapsing store. A couple of my neighbors went on a tirade about cars blowing stop signs in my development. The two biggest complainers? Yea - guess who got ticketed for it? :rofl:

With very few exceptions, it isn't the need for MORE regulation - rather, it is the need to gov't to enforce the existing regulations and for people to abide by the existing regulations. The problems result from the failure of "voluntary" compliance, the failure to enforce those regulations, and interference/restrictions on the ability to enforce. The hypocrisy is downright silly at times.

On the most basic level - I want my gov't to blow things up that need to be blown up AND to keep me and my family safe from blowing up when they shouldn't.

[datachicane]

Like most current events, it functions as a bit of a Rorschach test, no doubt.
That said, there is more than a bit of irony here given the heavily-marketed attitude of the State gov't towards business regulation and the cavalier attitude towards enforcement that's come to light since.

[Insomniac]

No. Many companies self-insure in the honest belief that they have funding to handle most scenarios. Nobody carries insurance to cover the worst possible scenario. Nobody could afford to drive or run a business if that were the expectation.


This wasn't expected. There are thousands of facilities like this across the country and explosions are rare. If there was such tremendous risk why was a city allowed to grow right up to the property line? That plant was there for 50 years and everyone knew exactly what they did. How much will the city of West end up paying out for their negligence?

If it is rare and unexpected, insurance for it would not cost all that much because the insurance company would assess the risk as low and likelihood as unlikely. Responsible thing to do is buy the insurance for events you can't cover if you're self insured. Health insurance companies buy insurance to protect against members having catastrophic injuries and they're in the insurance business!

[cameraman]

Reinsurance is a massive industry. It's like Vegas for the insanely rich.

[G.]

I had no idea that ins. companies bought insurance to cover large claims.

TIL.

[datachicane]

Why write a bunch of checks when you don't have to? Let the other guy worry about it. To quote the wisdom of our own FTG:



None of the bad things that happen to me are my fault. That's why you need to bail me out. All of the good things that happened to me are because I work hard. That's why I owe you nothing. It's the perfect system.