SFO commercial plane crash [Archive]

nrc

07-06-13, 04:52 PM

Boeing 777 crash lands at SFO.

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-201_162-57592529/plane-crash-at-san-francisco-airport/

https://path.com/p/1lwrZb

Looks like most passengers are ok.

Reading early reports and looking at the pics available demonstrates that eye witness reports of these events cannot be trusted.

Sucks for Boeing since they're getting headline billing and a lot of readers will assume a connection with the the 787 problems they've been reading about.

Gnam

07-06-13, 05:05 PM

I think the plane was too low on its approach. The pictures on TV show the debris field starting at the breakwater where the runway rises out of the Bay. The tail was sheared off and the nose was slammed down.

http://i43.tinypic.com/10z6535.jpg

Also, it looks like the fire didn't reach the passenger cabin until after the evacuation started. Give me hope that the early reports are correct and almost everyone made it out OK.

I haven't seen the left engine in any of the pictures. I thought I saw a burned patch of grass on the other side of the runway. Maybe it skidded across and came to rest there.

nrc

07-06-13, 05:05 PM

Some witnesses are saying "the tail came off". I'm guessing that he pranged the tail on landing.

Update: Yeah picture above looks like a short landing, shearing the tail off on the breakwater.

Gnam

07-06-13, 05:09 PM

Here's that pic from one of the passengers. I just noticed the lady in the green top appears to have had time to retrieve her carry-on luggage.

http://thumbsnap.com/s/hwgAu4Tp.jpg

Andrew Longman

07-06-13, 06:35 PM

...Sucks for Boeing since they're getting headline billing and a lot of readers will assume a connection with the the 787 problems they've been reading about.

True. But clear daylight sky's and 8 mph wind strongly suggest pilot error. Unless this proves to be mechanical failure Boeing deserves a ton of credit for designing and building a plane that held together very well and was capable of evacuating nearly everyone before fire took over.

WickerBill

07-06-13, 07:00 PM

Wow, look at that debris field in Gnam's post... assuming significant forward momentum of the debris but the seeming lack of damage to the breakwater, I can't even guess what happened. You'd think if he tried to scrape the bottom of the plane off at water's edge, there would be some massive damage visible...

Gnam

07-06-13, 07:07 PM

Luckily because it was a sunny, clear day the pilot saw Bruce Willis waving his arms on the runway and pulled up just in time.
[/Die Hard 2]

Gnam

07-06-13, 07:38 PM

SF Chronicle is reporting 40 people are seriously injured and were taken to local hospitals, including two children. :(

The injuries "are consistent with the types of injuries you would see in a plane crash or fire," Kagan said. "Many burns, fractures and internal injuries."

Most of the victims speak only Korean, and the hospital put out a call for any Korean-speaking staffers to come to work and help translate.

http://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/40-hurt-when-plane-crashes-at-SFO-4650259.php#photo-4885515

Also, Sully Sullenberger called the local news radio station KCBS to report that construction at SFO could have been a factor in the accident.

[The] ground guidance systems for pilots have been shut down, requiring pilots to rely on sight and not on electronics that provide an automated warning system.

http://millbrae.patch.com/groups/police-and-fire/p/pilot-sully-sullenberger-sfo-runway-construction-could-have-been-a-factor-in-crash

TravelGal

07-07-13, 11:35 AM

I saw this thread but didn't have time to reply before the forum upgrades (nice job, btw). In the interim, I read the "official" accounts and am, as always, overwhelmed by the knowledge of the crew here at OC. If you ever give up your day jobs, you could work for the NTSB.

Elmo T

07-07-13, 12:59 PM

Links to ATC and Fire Department audio here:

Statter 911 on SFO Crash (http://statter911.com/2013/07/06/boeing-777-crash-landing-with-fire-at-san-francisco-airport-flight-from-seoul/)

cameraman

07-07-13, 06:08 PM

A video of a test of the 777 stick shaker system which may or may not come into play as they investigate why the plane landed so short.

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Don't know what it feels like but the coffee grinder-like sound is pretty attention getting.

WickerBill

07-07-13, 08:13 PM

Amateur (very) video of the crash....

http://www.cnn.com/video/data/2.0/video/us/2013/07/07/vo-plane-sf-plane-crash-on-cam.courtesy-fred-hayes.html

nrc

07-08-13, 02:11 AM

Pilot error appears to be the chief suspect at this point. Too low, too slow, pilot's first SFO landing in a 777 - not a good mix.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/travel/news/2013/07/07/asian-airlines-crash-san-francisco-airport-boeing-777/2496275/

Gnam

07-08-13, 03:42 AM

I really hope the girl was not run over on the runway by someone responding to the crash. That would be horrible. :(

Today there was some commentary on a news report that I didn't understand. They said when the pilots realized they were too low, they increased the throttle. But the throttles were set at 'idle' speed and it took the engines some time to spool up and provide extra power. By that time it was too late.

Why would the engines be at idle? Was that just a figure of speech to mean the were set at a lower speed for landing? Or, did the pilot reduce power more than normal trying to return the plane to the proper glide slope?

I wonder if the plane was too high, or if the pilot thought he was too high, at some point earlier in the landing.

SteveH

07-08-13, 08:41 AM

Could be that the news report is inaccurate. I doubt if anyone other than the pilots know what throttle setting was used previous to the crash. The not-so-black black boxes will show this however.

Napoleon

07-08-13, 09:50 AM

Some interesting takes on what did or may have happened.

http://www.askthepilot.com/sfo-asiana-crash/

http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2013/07/overnight-update-on-asiana-214/277568/

indyfan31

07-08-13, 11:11 AM

I really hope the girl was not run over on the runway by someone responding to the crash. That would be horrible. :(.

Sadly, it's starting to look like that's exactly what happened.

nrc

07-08-13, 04:47 PM

Wow. Now saying that it's possible that both girls were hit by emergency vehicles. If you look at some of the footage of vehicles arriving and maneuvering around the crash site it's evident that a crash scene full of survivors is not their normal scenario. :(
Probably mistaken: see below, sorry

I'm not surprised about the engine idle thing. As a plane is landing they're both descending and slowing the plane - two things that are at odds with one another. The engines likely have to be at or near idle on final approach to get the aircraft down to landing speed. Obviously in this case the got too low and too slow too soon.

I found an Airbus flight briefing that confirms this along with the fact that it takes 5 seconds for the engines to spool back up to "go-around" power. Which means that by the time the pilots called for a go-around it was already too late.

Napoleon

07-08-13, 05:13 PM

Wow. Now saying that it's possible that both girls were hit by emergency vehicles.

Am I the only one who is wondering how it is that they could have been hit? The plane came to rest around 2000 feet from where it hit the breakwall, and stuff like the big chunks off the back were more then 1000 feet from where it came to rest. So, since the fire crews had to come from the other direction either they drove significantly past where the plane came to rest or the two girls fell out right near the end. The easy thing to understand (I guess) is if they were near the plane and obscured by smoke that they may have been hit (although I don't know why a fire crew, unless it was absolutely necessary and then at great caution, would ever drive in or through an area obscured by smoke, that is just asking for trouble).

nrc

07-08-13, 05:27 PM

I can't find the reference for both being hit now so I may have misread that.

It sounds like some of the other injuries may have been ejections ("severe road rash") as well. Given that the location where the tail separated appears to be aft of the passenger compartment I'm wondering if seats came free or there were just people who weren't properly belted. My initial assumption was that the two fatalities may have been flight crew from the rear galley area.

Buckle up for safety folks.

Andrew Longman

07-08-13, 05:54 PM

Gnam

07-08-13, 05:57 PM

Cabin crew interviewed:

The evacuation of Asiana Flight 214 began badly. Even before the mangled jetliner began filling with smoke, two evacuation slides on the doors inflated inside the cabin instead of outside, pinning two flight attendants to the floor.

http://www.sfgate.com/news/world/article/Asiana-attendant-describes-dramatic-evacuation-4651634.php

Also, there may be video of the girl being run over. I hope not.
http://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/SF-plane-crash-Victim-may-have-been-run-over-4651323.php

edit:
Another story about the first responders.

In the back of the plane - which had lost its tail after clipping a rocky seawall short of the runway - they joined a city police officer wearing no protective gear and rescued four injured victims, including one who was trapped.

http://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/How-rescuers-saved-SF-plane-crash-victims-4652751.php

cameraman

07-08-13, 07:10 PM

Am I the only one who is wondering how it is that they could have been hit? The plane came to rest around 2000 feet from where it hit the breakwall, and stuff like the big chunks off the back were more then 1000 feet from where it came to rest. So, since the fire crews had to come from the other direction either they drove significantly past where the plane came to rest or the two girls fell out right near the end. The easy thing to understand (I guess) is if they were near the plane and obscured by smoke that they may have been hit (although I don't know why a fire crew, unless it was absolutely necessary and then at great caution, would ever drive in or through an area obscured by smoke, that is just asking for trouble).

The trucks fight the fire with monitors mounted on the front of the vehicle. Their entire design is based upon driving right up to the plane and dumping a ton of water/foam. Some units even have aircraft hull piercing probes to get the water inside an aircraft. With the driver focused on getting his truck in the correct position to fight the fire it is quite possible that he didn't see someone lying on the ground or she could have also not seen the truck coming and run/walked right in front of it.

TravelGal

07-08-13, 07:19 PM

Those two girls were heading to a camp here in SoCal. And no, I still don't how to give links properly, all efforts by Andrew notwithstanding.
http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-asiana-crash-teens-20130708,0,4845098.story

Sad. Really sad. :(

Napoleon

07-08-13, 07:55 PM

With the driver focused on getting his truck in the correct position to fight the fire it is quite possible that he didn't see someone lying on the ground or she could have also not seen the truck coming and run/walked right in front of it.

I have read more since my post of around 3 hours ago and I am willing to bet your last speculation is going to be what happened. The one that was hit was not ejected from the plane. She walked/slide off and then was hit.

Gnam

07-08-13, 08:37 PM

More information on the engine performance before the crash.

The Asiana Airlines jet that crash-landed at San Francisco International Airport was traveling at just 106 knots when it hit a rocky seawall short of the runway, or 31 knots slower than the flight crew's intended landing speed, federal investigators said Monday.

When the plane reached its lowest speed, she said, the engines were at about 50 percent power and the engine power was increasing. According to aviation experts, airplane engines that have been set at idle do not respond immediately to being throttled back up.

http://www.sfgate.com/news/article/NTSB-Doomed-jet-came-in-far-too-slowly-4653066.php

Elmo T

07-08-13, 09:29 PM

Those trucks move and move quickly. Limited manpower means most of those trucks are operated by one or two firefighers. Trucks designed for sole operation in most cases. this is not a "pull the hose off the truck" type operation. Some are equipped with thermal and/or infrared cameras to assist in driving through smoke. Very sad if true, but I am not surprised this might happen given a burning aircraft on the runway. :(

NismoZ

07-10-13, 08:01 AM

Yikes...this morning reports two flight attendants were ejected onto the runway from the tail as the plane slid along, and survived! I recall hearing a very early report about a female "passenger" who was found WALKING up the runway toward the crash scene and arriving emergency vehicles. Could have been one of those two? Hadn't heard anything since. I don't even want to think about the emergency vehicle accident but it is easy to understand HOW it could have happened. The driver becomes another serious injury, if true. :(

Gnam

07-10-13, 04:54 PM

Interview with NTSB head Deborah Hersman.

The pilots told investigators that they assumed the automatic throttle was maintaining their landing speed, but somehow the plane lost significant speed and came in 36 mph slower than it should have been. It isn’t clear why the plane was traveling so slowly.

http://blog.sfgate.com/stew/2013/07/10/sf-plane-crash-a-qa-with-ntsb-head-hersman/

Sounds like a snowball effect led to the accident. No single cause, but lots of contributing factors.

JoeBob

07-10-13, 05:54 PM

One picture I saw somewhere showed the "end cap" of the passenger compartment still on the fuselage. I forget the proper name but it is a dome shaped structure that contains cabin pressure. No people will be to the rear of that and that is where the tail broke. The picture showed some breeches to the dome so it is possible someone fell out but it was very much mostly intact.

This picture shows the rear of the aircraft:

http://aviationblog.dallasnews.com/files/2013/07/Asiana-crash-NTSB-2.jpg

While the rear bulkhead is there, notice how little space there is between the ground and the rear door.

It wouldn't surprise me if the floor is gone at the rear of the plane, with the passengers trapped inside. I read reports that there were pieces of the rear galley found on the runway. ThThe flight attendants who should have been seated at the rear of the aircraft were found injured on the runway. The cabin floor failing at the rear of the aircraft would explain all of the "road rash" And how some could have ended up dead (and/or injured) on the runway.

nrc

07-10-13, 09:21 PM

Seems like the NTSB is much more chatty about this accident than they've ever been in the past.

Sent from my Droid RAZR M

Indy

07-10-13, 11:07 PM

Heard today that it took the pilots 90 seconds to attempt to initiate an evacuation, while the other crew jumped in immediately. Also heard from a former 777 pilot that the autopilot argument that the pilots are making is meaningless, that when the automation senses that the pilot is landing, the autopilot will stop functioning (otherwise they would not be able to land). The pilots are looking like complete incompetents.

gjc2

07-11-13, 06:13 AM

The pilots are looking like complete incompetents.

That’s what it looks like to me. The fact that the pilot in the left seat had low time in that type of aircraft is absolutely no excuse. Every pilot knows you have to stay on the glide slope and maintain your speed. I’m reading that they were 100 feet low and 40mph slow.

NismoZ

07-11-13, 08:18 AM

Elmo T

07-11-13, 08:32 AM

Oh, boy:rolleyes:...and the hits just keep on coming. Just heard a 911 call replay from the RUNWAY..."We need help here!...been on the ground 20 min.-half an hour! Girl on the runway, we're trying to keep her alive...YES I was on the plane!"...I thought help arrived in 3 minutes? How long before survivors go on TV to tell THEIR stories? I sense lawyers flying into SFO right now.

I am sure airport crash/fire/rescue trucks were onscene within 3 minutes. But airport FD staffing is light (see previous posts - trucks designed for one or two firefighters). There are not a lot of ambulances or firetrucks at any airport - the "city" firetrucks will always respond to an airport crash. But consider the remoteness of most airports and what would likely be a much longer response for those trucks.

Lastly, this is a "mass casualty incident" where resources will be directed to the greatest good for the greatest number. Fire suppression would be the top priority.

I pulled up some info on SFO fire rescue services:

Three (3) of the ARFF Units are capable of deploying 4,500 gallons of foam each. The fourth ARFF Unit has a capability of deploying 3,000 gallons of water & foam. The Airport Division also staffs two (2) Engines, one (1) Truck, two (2) Paramedic Units, and a Command Unit.

They have two staffed ambulances at the airport. The sad reality is that there are not 182 ambulances in SF. And it takes time to respond. If they have to call an ambulance from 15 miles away, it will take at least 15 minutes to get there (mile a minute plus dispatch time, etc).

KLang

07-11-13, 10:49 AM

I think the bigger deal is that at one of the pilots instructions, one of the flight attendants initially ordered the passengers to remain in their seats. :saywhat:

indyfan31

07-11-13, 07:36 PM

I think the bigger deal is that at one of the pilots instructions, one of the flight attendants initially ordered the passengers to remain in their seats. :saywhat:

I heard that yesterday also. I assumed the delay was to make sure it was actually SAFE to go outside: fuel spills, moving engine parts, other aircraft, emergency vehicles running over people; stuff like that.

I realize 90 seconds can seem like and hour but the pilots were communicating with the tower to see if it was safe to evacuate. Procedure went out the window when one of the flight attendants spotted the fire.

NismoZ

07-11-13, 07:42 PM

Don Quixote

07-12-13, 10:09 AM

I think the bigger deal is that at one of the pilots instructions, one of the flight attendants initially ordered the passengers to remain in their seats. :saywhat:It seems that when the airline crashes the plane they give up all rights to boss you around.

Napoleon

07-12-13, 11:35 AM

It seems that when the airline crashes the plane they give up all rights to boss you around.

I know you are joking but this was something I heard when that Italian cruise ship "crashed" a year or two ago off of Italy, but when the captian calls for abandoning ship he looses his helm and command of the ship passes to coast guard/similar authority.

Gnam

07-12-13, 12:37 PM

JhoAfgYhhs0

http://blog.sfgate.com/stew/2013/07/11/animation-re-creates-saturdays-sfo-crash/

So close.

Elmo T

07-12-13, 02:25 PM

As feared - though with an explanation of how this happened:

Police: Teen in Asiana Crash Hit by Fire Truck (http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Government/2013/07/12/Police--Teen-in-Asiana-crash-hit-by-fire-truck)

One of the Chinese teenagers who died in the Asiana Airlines disaster was struck by a fire truck while she was covered in foam that crews had sprayed to douse the fire aboard the plane, police said Friday.

KLang

07-12-13, 05:18 PM

Reported incorrectly earlier today by station KTVU in San Francisco, the names of the pilots:

Sum Ting Wong
Wi Tu Lo
Ho Lee Fuk
Bang Ding Ow

I imagine someone at KTVU is now looking for a job.

Link (http://www.mediaite.com/tv/ho-lee-fuk-someone-pranked-san-francisco-tv-station-into-reporting-fabricated-names-of-asiana-pilots/)

Gnam

07-12-13, 06:03 PM

:rofl::laugh::rofl:

dando

07-12-13, 07:07 PM

Death toll increased to 3. :(

Update on the news hoax:

http://www.mediabistro.com/tvspy/epic-ktvu-fail-anchor-reports-pilot-names-including-sum-ting-wong-and-wi-tu-lo_b97368

-Kevin

nrc

07-13-13, 05:07 PM

Update on the news hoax:

Ha. Summer intern at the NTSB confirmed it.

dando

07-14-13, 05:27 AM

Ha. Summer intern at the NTSB confirmed it.

I recall an episode back in '04 after the Presidential election when we had an intern rename an image with a derogatory term who was subsequently canned. Someone actually did the right-click thingy to expose the issue. Damn interns. ;)

-Kevin

nrc

07-15-13, 12:30 AM

TravelGal

07-15-13, 01:51 AM

Asiana now says that they may sue the TV station because the report "badly damaged" the reputation of the airline and its pilots.

As compared to, say, crashing the plane in the first place?

http://www.aceshowbiz.com/news/view/00062195.html

This would be a dumb move by the airline. Why draw more attention to the whole thing when it's so hard to prove libel anyway?

Completely agree with this but it's that Asian fear of losing face. What they need to do is blitz the airwaves with their new and improved safety measures. They were on the threshold of a huge expansion in the US. Recovering their lost "momentum" should be priority #1, not whether their feelings got hurt.

cameraman

07-15-13, 01:55 AM

If it is shown that their pilots flew the plane into the ground all of their own accord the airline will be spending enough time in court as it is without needing to add yet another case.:shakehead:

Gnam

07-15-13, 02:54 PM

When do they announce the names of Asiana Airlines' legal team? ;)

RaceGrrl

07-28-13, 02:56 PM

Heh heh heh... a little bit of payback (http://slothed.com/2013/07/23/korean-news-station-pokes-fun-at-ktvu-with-fake-american-pilot-names-after-southwest-airlines-landing-gear-failure/).

JohnHKart

08-03-13, 06:23 PM

Good article here on Air Facts:

http://airfactsjournal.com/2013/07/the-asiana-crash-rampant-speculation/

And LA Times:

http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-foreign-pilots-20130728,0,7011249.story?page=1&track=rss

True, hard to change 3000 years of a culture.

cameraman

08-03-13, 07:20 PM

Good article here on Air Facts:

http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-foreign-pilots-20130728,0,7011249.story?page=1&track=rss

If you take the s out of the https in that link it works much better

Gnam

08-05-13, 01:13 AM

Elmo T

08-05-13, 02:20 PM

Plenty more details on the FD involved fatality:

Video sheds light on Flight 214 passenger's death (http://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/Video-sheds-light-on-Flight-214-passenger-s-death-4706576.php#photo-5001216)

TravelGal

08-06-13, 01:59 AM

There are no shortcuts, but in other parts of the world close is good enough.

I'll toss in that pilot training, safety inspections, and the like for charters (those things you may want to take to save money when flying to Club Med or Mexico or such), are not the same as for the major airlines.