Questions for dog owners

[G.]

I grew up with dogs. I understand dogs. Love 'em.

We got a puppy from a shelter at about 8-9 weeks old or so. We don't really have info on her early weeks, but again, we got her pretty young. She's 1/2 border collie, other half insane.

I like to think that I know what I'm doing with dogs, and we brought her up right, but she has always had a mean streak. I get it when a dog tries to push it's limits, I really do, but this is a dog that doesn't just nip at you when she feels "threatened" - she'll come after you. And keep coming. Even at the alpha male.

We spent a boatload of money on a trainer, and she trained us well. The dog definitely knows her place in the pecking order, and listens very well, and is very gentle. Until she's not...

Long story shorter, we're trying to figure out what to do with her.

She's 2.5 years old, never been beaten (by us). She went after a child as he was leaving the house last month (the kid was here all day, with us watching carefully, no issues until he was leaving). Wife had her on the leash, sitting in her "spot" for greeting people at the door, he turned away and she lunged. No harm, but lots of embarrassment.

She bit me last week. Food issues, that we have worked on for months. She gets very good and well-behaved - until she's not. (Now she won't eat until I tell her it's ok, and she offers up a submissive wizz on the floor.)

Anyway, I cannot trust her around others, or around my kids. Or wife. Or other dogs.

Anyone ever have a dog like this, that just seems "broken"?

What did you do?

Muzzle during the day?
Always cage her if someone's over?
Give her to a good home (whatever that means)?
Blue shot of long sleepy-time?

Seriously, we really have done just about everything right with this little ****. Our trainer is the best in the area, and still works with us some. We still socialize her under careful watch, etc., but she just cannot be trusted. Wife works with her All. Day. Long.

[chop456]

Get rid of her. Sorry, It's like having a loaded gun laying around. Any dog with a screw loose* will not be fixed, though you've done all the right things. Luckily she's not bigger or who knows what may have happened with the other child.


She gets very good and well-behaved - until she's not

^This is something I tell my daughter constantly re: Pit Bulls. They're always the greatest dogs right up until until someone gets their leg chewed off. There's too great a potential. Fortunately, in a way, your current dog has already shown the potential so that it's not that one big surprise. You know what to expect. Unfortunately I think that's what you can probably continue to expect.

If you give her up to a shelter, they'll temperament test her and THEY will make the determination of what needs to be done.

Sorry. Just being honest.

*With no history of abuse, there just seems to be something inherently broken, as you correctly suggested.

[TravelGal]

I agree with chop. Dogs, cats, horses, even fish, etc, etc., they all have their own personality. You can train all you like but you can't change the underlying personality. If you can't trust the dog, you have to let it go. Get one that will give you years of happiness, not anxiety, or worse yet, moments of indescribable regret.

[Gnam]

No dog here, just stories.

#1
My uncle was a geologist, working in Nevada mostly, occasionally elsewhere. Geologists can keep a secret. ;)
For years, his companion in the field was Blue, a black Lab that he raised from a puppy. He was a good dog and my Uncle's best friend. One day, Blue bit his four-year-old daughter in the face. It was a very serious bite. My uncle put Blue down the next day. No hesitation, just tears.

#2
My neighbor bought an Australian Shepherd. This dog had crazy eyes like Clint Eastwood: one brown, one blue. I'm outside my home one evening, talking with the neighbor and his crazy lookin' dog. I pet the dog, no problem. I talk to the neighbor, no problem. I go to pet the dog goodbye, SNAP!

With blood running down my hand, my neighbor insists that this is a good dog and he bites everyone: his wife, his daughters, the trainer, him, their friends, their family members, strangers. Dude was in total denial. Few weeks later, the dog went after the trainer again and my neighbor finally admitted the dog had issues. He takes the dog back to the breeder and gets another one just like it. :shakehead: I don't pet the new dog.

A untrustworthy dog is a wolf.

[Andrew Longman]

She's 1/2 border collie, other half insane.which means she is totally insane. The breed is design to aggressively herd stuff by nipping at it. I shared a farmhouse for about seven years with my landlord and his two border collies and one of them came after me every day when I came home. Never really bit me or bit me hard (nipping at ankles-which is what they do to cows) but she was hard wired to scare the shat out me and tell me she was in charge.

Later had a neighbor with an Aussie Shepard which are all about the same in my experience. It bit Trevor on the face as he was just sitting on the front step and it was being walked on a leash on the sidewalk.

Our current rescue mutt can be agressive but we recognize that in his case he is afraid and we manage it accordingly including telling visitors to just ignore him and not even look at him and he quickly becomes a happy knucklehead.

We had two dog when I was a kid we put down because the were so unpredictable, especially around kids. At some point you have to ask why you have any dog and is this cutting it. Or, as a trapper friend with sled dogs in Alaska said, "a man has to know when to shoot his dog ". Sorry, but that is my advice.

[sadams]

Yup dogs gotta go if you can't trust it. We had a Welsh Terrier we got as a rescue. She couldn't be trusted because she would bite then reset and bite again. She was gone in a week. She now have a Boxer and a Wire Hair Fox Terrier with no issues. You've got to be able to fully trust the dog.
Sad but the best for all concerned.

[Tifosi24]

Unfortunately, I will echo the comments of others. My aunt and uncle are great dog people and, about two years ago, they got a new puppy and no matter the training the thing always was a bit off. At one point, it cornered my aunt while my uncle was on business and it took her 30 minutes to calm it down. Needless to say, they got rid of the dog. There was no possibility of abuse because they got the dog as a puppy, so, just like people, I believe it is possible for a dog, or another animal, to essentially be a psychopath. It's tough, but I wouldn't be able to deal with the worry and unpredictability.

I have a rat terrier who will be 10 this Spring, and he can get going, especially around young boys (girls he hams for, I don't get it) that aren't mini-Tif, because he was teased by the neighbors at his first house (we got him when he was just over a year old at a shelter). Hopefully the day won't come where his behavior becomes too much, but I am always prepared for when he might have to go to the retirement home (father-in-law's house) or the great dog house in the sky.

[indyfan31]

Really folks? Get rid of the dog? In other words pass on the problem or put him down.

Here's a different tact.
My wife and I adopted an 18-month-old Lab from a rescue group. The dog was left at the "night drop" of a local County Shelter so there's no history whatsoever. Everybody loves Labs and Labs love everybody right? Wrong.
A few months after we got him, and once he got attached to us, we noticed he would lunge and snap at children and men (strangers).
Fortunately he never bit anyone, but his jaws would snap just inches from people's faces.

The solution:

1. anticipation.
I started studying his behavior when he was around men and kids. I would watch his body language: position of his ears, his tail (was it up, straight out, or down), was the mouth open or closed, was he just looking or staring. What did he do RIGHT BEFORE he lunged.

2. correction.
Whenever a stranger would come around I'd watch the dog. As soon as he went into his "state" I'd tug on the leash or poke his side with my hand, get him to look at me then say "NO". The idea was to break his concentration or obsession with the stranger BEFORE he he attacked. You may not like this part but it took about two years to change his behavior. Now when I see him stare at someone I just say "No" making sure I have his attention. When it works you can visibly see the his body relax.

This whole procedure may sound familiar to anyone that watches Nat Geo, but it worked for me. The dog will be 7 in June and I can now trust him around strangers, with one caveat: do not approach the dog, let him come to you. If he doesn't come to you on his own it's not your day to pet him.

Naturally we had him on a leash at all times while we were trying to train him, but this isn't always right. The leash gives him something to fight against and increases the anxiety level. I've noticed he's much more relaxed and less guarded when he's off leash.

Before you get rid of the dog I hope you can try a different approach or at least a different trainer. Good luck.

[nrc]

We were also successful in (mostly) overcoming the severe possessiveness that our rescued Manchester Terrier, Guiness, demonstrated using "dog whisperer" techniques. It wasn't always pleasant getting through it but he's been a happier dog. Now at 17 he's got a lot of health issues so we tolerate a little bit of grumpy old man dog.

The submissive urination suggests a lot of anxiety and with worker breeds that can be because they're not getting enough activity or an outlet for their instincts. That can also lead to attempts to "herd" or control kids or family members. Those can be nips but not normally attacks. The exception I think is that we've seen situations where if you respond aggressively to a nervous nip it's like "oh crap, I bit the pack leader now I'm in a fight for my life".

If you or your family don't feel safe with the dog and you've tried everything then it's not going to be good for the dog or you to let the situation deteriorate or just chain him up somewhere. If that's where you're at I'd suggest looking into a breed rescue organization or no kill shelter. They're accustomed to working with dogs who have issues and they may be able to find a home for him.

[stroker]

I have a friend who used to raise Rhodesian Ridgebacks. He'd have put that dog down already. I'm not recommending it but it sounds to me like you've got a load of liability due to a known and established tendency.

[G.]

I was trying to avoid a long story.

I'll still try.

I gave 2 recent examples of attacks. This is by no means all of them. Many hundreds were averted.

There isn't a doubt to me that the dog is "broken".

My question was what did people decide to do with their "broken" dogs?

I guess I am looking for people that have managed to keep an untrusted dog, and how they managed. I don't think that's in the cards for us, tbh.

[cameraman]

Maybe someone can cure the dog of its issues but from what you have described I seriously doubt it is anyone in your household. You need to get the dog out of your place. Like NRC said a no-kill or breed rescue if you can find one. Otherwise...

With the record you have described it is a ticking time bomb, you need to do something sooner rather than later.

[indyfan31]

Sounds like you're at the end of your rope.
I'd have to agree with NRC, find a Collie rescue group to take him off your hands.

[nrc]

Before deciding, if you haven't seen Ceasar Millan's "Dog Whisperer" show I'd strongly recommend it. His methods aren't for everyone. You have to be very attentive to their body language. You have to be able to be completely calm while you're dealing with an unruly or aggressive dog - if you're angry, afraid, or tense the dog will respond to that. With a Border Collie mix it probably involves a lot of time and effort giving the dog a job and exercising until he's worn out. Have you considered getting him some sheep?