Malaysia Airlines Boeing 777-200 crash on Ukraine/Russia border

[cameraman]

No firm details yet but the plane was flying from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur.

The current suspicion is that someone shot it down.:shakehead:

The Ukrainians claim that the Russians shot down an AN-26 military transport on the 14th and a Su-24 yesterday in the same area.

[cameraman]

For what it is worth…


16:50: An advisor to the Ukrainian interior minister, Anton Gerashenko, says the plane was flying at an altitude of 10,000 metres (33,000 feet) when it was "hit by a missile fired from a Buk launcher", in a post on his Facebook page, according to the Associated Press.

That would be an SA-11 system in US military terms.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a8/Buk-M1-2_9A310M1-2.jpg/431px-Buk-M1-2_9A310M1-2.jpg

[SteveH]

http://news.sky.com/story/1302864/malaysian-plane-shot-down-with-295-on-board


Aviation expert Major Charles Hayman told Sky News: "It's highly likely this aircraft was flying along a fault line between Russian and Ukrainian defences.

"It’s possible the Ukrainians flapped a bit, thought it was hostile and shot it down.

[stroker]

Given the recent performance of Malaysian Airlines I suppose it was too much to expect for a pilot to have anticipated hot SAMs in that area....

[cameraman]

The route had the approval of both the Russian and Ukrainian air traffic authorities and was flying under their control. The plane is flying too high for any shoulder launched missile to reach it. It requires heavy military antiaircraft systems to get that high. This was either the Russian or the Ukrainian military screwing up in an epic fashion.

[Elmo T]

Some talk of an event onboard too. In other words, media speculation has run wild in the short term.

[Tifosi24]

Some talk of an event onboard too. In other words, media speculation has run wild in the short term.

I suppose anything is possible, but given the penchant for planes getting shot down in this area over the past week, it is a logical conclusion to assume that a missile is responsible. As cameraman noted, whomever is responsible messed up in a truly epic manner.

[cameraman]

Russian-backed separatist leader Igor Girkin (who also goes by the name of Strelkov) has claimed credit for shooting down Malaysia Airlines MH17.

“The plane has just been taken down somewhere around Torez (Donetsk Oblast). It lays there behind the Progress mine. We did warn you – do not fly in ‘our sky,’” he said, reported the Kyiv Post.

“And here is the video proving another ‘bird’ falling down. The bird went down behind the slagheap, not in the residential district. So no peaceful people injured. There is also information about another plane shot.” Stelkov and his group, the Donetsk People’s Army, apparently mistook the plane for a Ukrainian army plane.

They captured the missile system when the overran a Ukrainian military base a while back. The guy is the scum of the earth.

[Elmo T]

Based on photos of debris fields in other areas, something happened at altitude - not solely impact with ground.

[SteveH]

Wouldn't someone need to know how to operate this system? Seems to me without the knowledge to operate it, it might as well be a bulldozer.

[cameraman]

Wouldn't someone need to know how to operate this system? Seems to me without the knowledge to operate it, it might as well be a bulldozer.

The are fully Russian trained troops.


Strelkov, the leader of the Donetsk People’s Army, works for the Russian military agency GRU, according to BBC, citing the Ukrainian security service. Russian media says that he is a retired officer of the Russian Federal Security Service. He was born in 1970 and is a registered citizen of Moscow. He has been active in the region for decades.

His group has combat experience fighting for the Russian armed forces in Chechnya, Central Asia, Yugoslavia, Iraq, and Syria, he told Russia’s Komsomolskaya Pravda newspaper. He himself took part in conflicts in Yugoslavia.

“He is also said to be a military enthusiast who specializes in historical re-enactment and staged recreations of battles,” it reported.

A Girkin Facebook group, which appears to be filled with fans of the commander, has the following slogan: “We have defeated the nazis, we will defeat the neo-nazis.” In it, group members post stories about Strelkov’s recent success in Ukraine.

[TrueBrit]

On the plus side CNN won't have to change their graphics as they breathlessly speculate about it for the next 7-10 days....:shakehead:

[SteveH]

On the plus side CNN won't have to change their graphics as they breathlessly speculate about it for the next 7-10 days....:shakehead:

I believe I saw graphics describing a Malaysian 777 that they used a few months ago. Probably the same for every news media outlet, though.

[Gnam]

:(

Don't SAM me, comrade.

[cameraman]

Yeah well I suppose it might not be a bad idea...


Following crash of Malaysia airlines plane Lufthansa airline confirms it will now avoid east Ukranian airspace w/ immediate effect.

[Tifosi24]

They captured the missile system when the overran a Ukrainian military base a while back. The guy is the scum of the earth.

Do you have a linky to this quote?

[SteveH]

http://news.yahoo.com/rebel-suggests-insurgents-shot-down-malaysia-plane-mistake-174750060.html


But a post on the official Twitter account of the "Donetsk People's Republic" -- later removed -- claimed that the separatists earlier Thursday had seized a missile system called Buk from the Ukrainian army capable of downing a jet at that altitude.

"@dnrpress: self-propelled Buk surface-to-air missile systems have been seized by the DNR from (Ukrainian) surface-to-air missile regiment A1402," said the post.

[cameraman]

http://m.theepochtimes.com/n3/805200-igor-girkin-commander-of-donetsk-peoples-army-igor-strelkov-says-they-shot-down-malaysia-airlines-mh17-photos/

for the quotes above

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/23b749b0-0ddd-11e4-85ab-00144feabdc0.html

On Monday this week, the surface-to-air threat posed by Ukrainian rebels changed dramatically, however, in an apparent forewarning of what was to befall MH17. An An-26 Ukrainian transport plane was hit while flying at 6,500m – well beyond the range of a portable missile system. The attack sounded alarm bells in Kiev. Though until now it was an isolated incident, officials in Kiev are now in little doubt as to what caused it – and the crash of MH17. They point the finger at a Russian-made Buk missile launcher. With a range of 11km, a Buk – a large and complex piece of military hardware mounted on an armoured vehicle – could easily have hit MH17. It is also a system of simple design – operable by individuals with little or no training. Kiev officials’ fears over a Buk system being used were also born out on social media sources. Around five hours before the crash of MH17 on Thursday, locals near the town of Grabovo, where wreckage of the flight is now scattered, spotted a Buk launcher. Pinpointing where such a Buk launcher might have come from, is the hard part. Both the Ukrainian and Russian military possess such systems. Kiev operates 60 Buk 9K37s, according to the International Institute for Strategic Studies. Moscow operates 350, including a large number of more modern Buk 9K317s. “It’s a standard Soviet anti-aircraft system,” says Igor Sutyagin, a research fellow at the Royal United Services Institute and an expert in Russian military equipment and tactics. “We know that missile systems have been coming across the Russian border [in recent weeks], but this type of system falling into separatist hands is new.” The best evidence that has emerged so far is that the Buk launcher fell into rebel hands on June 29. On that day, rebel forces took control of a base in the suburbs of Donetsk at which surface-to-air missile unit A1402 of the Ukrainian army was located. A picture put up online shortly after the seizure by the rebel forces shows very clearly a Buk launcher in situ armed with four missiles. It is impossible to directly verify whether the claim is genuine, but the picture – and many other references online from rebel groups to Buk systems being captured – have been removed in recent hours. Indeed, Ukrainian separatist leaders are now staunchly denying they possess any system with the range of a Buk launcher. The most likely course of events, according to Mr Sutyagin, is that rebel forces, equipped with a Buk, targeted the wrong plane, and are now scrambling to cover their tracks. A Ukrainian military IL-76 transport plane, he says, was flying in the area at the same time as MH17. Both are large, four engined planes, approximately similar in profile and size.

Except a 777-200 is a two engined aircraft.

[Napoleon]

Based on photos of debris fields in other areas, something happened at altitude - not solely impact with ground.

Actually I would say the exact opposite. Apparently most of the bodies are in pretty good shape indicating perhaps a semi-controlled crash.

Edit: NY Times now says some eye witnesses say it exploded in the air.

[Napoleon]

Do you have a linky to this quote?

I have seen this:


http://voiceofrussia.com/news/2014_06_29/Donetsk-militia-takes-control-of-Ukrainian-anti-air-installation-1561/

[cameraman]

Actually I would say the exact opposite. Apparently most of the bodies are in pretty good shape indicating perhaps a semi-controlled crash.

Edit: NY Times now says some eye witnesses say it exploded in the air.


I'm not going to link to photos but there are plenty of reports of body parts strewn about. There are fuselage chunks scattered about the area. It seems to have at least partially broken up on the way down.

[Gnam]

The five rules of dodge ball also work for SAMs: dodge, dip, dive, duck and dodge

Someone reminded me that today is the anniversary of the TWA flight 800 crash off Long Island.
Maybe the center fuel tank exploded? ;)

[gjc2]

Maybe the center fuel tank exploded? ;)


Yeah, after the rocket hit it.

[cameraman]

A little more detailed information about why the plane was there.

L980 is one of the most popular and most congested air routes in the world. L980 is a key link between major international hubs in Europe, such as London Heathrow, Amsterdam Schiphol, and Frankfurt, and Asian megacities, like Singapore, Mumbai, and Hong Kong. The airspace over Ukraine is traveled by virtually every commercial flight from Western Europe to south Asia.
Until this morning that is, now all flights are diverting around Ukraine.

[Lux Interior]

How terrible. The news tonight said the separatists who control that area are taking the planes black box back to Moscow. Anyone else hear that?

[nrc]

How terrible. The news tonight said the separatists who control that area are taking the planes black box back to Moscow. Anyone else hear that?

Yes -
http://abcnews.go.com/International/end-malaysia-airlines-black-box/story?id=24607538


Ukrainian rebel forces have reportedly found the black box of the downed Malaysia Airlines plane amid the scattered debris.

Moscow-based wire agency Interfax has reported that Ukrainian rebel forces have the black box and have agreed to hand it over to the Russian-run regional air safety authority.

[TravelGal]

Anyone else remembering the fate of TWA after their plane was shot down over Lockerbie? I'm doubting MH can survive this. Too bad. It was a great little airline in its day.

[EVL29]

Pan Am.


But yeah,I'm guessing bookings might be getting lighter for a while.

[Lux Interior]

I'm 47, and thinking back, I really cannot recall a time when there has been this much instability in the world. Maybe during Vietman? I was just little though.

I wonder if they were trying to shoot down a military target, missed, and the missile locked onto the plane? Or did they deliberately target the plane knowing full well it was a passenger aircraft?

So sad.:(

It's bad enough when a plane goes down because of mechanical failure. This, however, should never have happened.

[TKGAngel]

I'm 47, and thinking back, I really cannot recall a time when there has been this much instability in the world. Maybe during Vietman? I was just little though.

I wonder if they were trying to shoot down a military target, missed, and the missile locked onto the plane? Or did they deliberately target the plane knowing full well it was a passenger aircraft?

So sad.:(

It's bad enough when a plane goes down because of mechanical failure. This, however, should never have happened.

http://cnnworldlive.cnn.com/Event/Malaysia_Airlines_Flight_17/121897109 makes it sound like they were going for a plane and got this one instead, but don't really GAF. Keep in mind CNN can't verify the authenticity of the recording in the above video, so YMMV.

It's interesting that the FAA banned US airlines from flying over that part of Ukraine back in April, while many carriers in the rest of the world still let flights pass over the region.

[opinionated ow]

http://cnnworldlive.cnn.com/Event/Malaysia_Airlines_Flight_17/121897109 makes it sound like they were going for a plane and got this one instead, but don't really GAF. Keep in mind CNN can't verify the authenticity of the recording in the above video, so YMMV.

It's interesting that the FAA banned US airlines from flying over that part of Ukraine back in April, while many carriers in the rest of the world still let flights pass over the region.

That would be more a political situation than a safety one, very few countries in the world have the sort of intense relationships with Russia that the USA has...

[cameraman]

http://cnnworldlive.cnn.com/Event/Malaysia_Airlines_Flight_17/121897109 makes it sound like they were going for a plane and got this one instead, but don't really GAF. Keep in mind CNN can't verify the authenticity of the recording in the above video, so YMMV.

It's interesting that the FAA banned US airlines from flying over that part of Ukraine back in April, while many carriers in the rest of the world still let flights pass over the region.

Actually the area the US closed is about 100 miles south of this flight route.

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/newsgraphics/2014/07/17/mh17/9f341dbe25555e8eb2fc27c05d6473f9fc5426e7/aviation-ai2html-600.png

The red hatched area was closed by the US, the green hatched by the EU.

Interesting that it seems that the Russians closed air routes east of Ukraine a few hours before the plane was shot down. Ostensibly including the route over Russia that Flight 17 was using. That info clearly didn't get to the airline.

[gjc2]

I'm 47, and thinking back, I really cannot recall a time when there has been this much instability in the world. Maybe during Vietman?


I’m 63; I remember the Cuban missile crisis, that was a very scary time.

[SteveH]

I’m 63; I remember the Cuban missile crisis, that was a very scary time.

Yes it was, I remember my mother crying in the kitchen because of it. Scary indeed.

[Gnam]

http://cnnworldlive.cnn.com/Event/Malaysia_Airlines_Flight_17/121897109 makes it sound like they were going for a plane and got this one instead, but don't really GAF.
So far, the reporting is the Russians thought they downed a Ukrainian cargo plane instead of MH17. When they realized their mistake they went into cover up mode, trying to hide the missile launcher, confiscating the black box data recorders, and deleting social media posts.

It is also being compared to the Russian shoot down of the Korean Air Lines plane in 1983. However, in 1983 the Russians didn't use a SAM. There was a Russian fighter pilot looking at the Korean Air plane with his own eyes and he was still ordered to fire. Cold blooded murder.

A general on the news said the SAM launcher had two tracking modes: radar and transponder. He suggested the crew operating the missile launcher only used radar mode because if they had used transponder mode, they would have seen the plane's MH17 designation and known it was civilian, not military.

So either the crew was negligent or they knew what they were aiming at and fired anyway. The Korean Air shoot down shows the Russians will knowingly kill civilians to protect their airspace. Whether or not they did in this case, depends on how far you trust Putin and the Russian military.

[dando]

It is also being compared to the Russian shoot down of the Korean Air Lines plane in 1983. However, in 1983 the Russians didn't use a SAM. There was a Russian fighter pilot looking at the Korean Air plane with his own eyes and he was still ordered to fire. Cold blooded murder.

And it took the Russkies 14 years to admit guilt for flight 007. :saywhat:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flight_007

[SteveH]

Unfortunately the US also has downed a commercial airliner. I think it was in the late 80s, Iran Air I believe.

[Andrew Longman]

To be fair... KAL007 was nowhere near where it was supposed to be because the pilot didn't set the autopilot correctly.

And it flew over and was leaving arguably the most sensitive security area in the USSR.

And KAL flights had previously flown and even accidentally deep into soviet territory resulting in defense personnel being executed for letting it happen.

And Soviet pilots were given no decision making authority - even to the point that in their history weren't always given two way radios or radar - just do what they are told. - to deter defection.

And KAL007 slowed down to save fuel but this was interpreted by the SU pilot as evasive maneuvers because the Su15 couldn't fly that slow and even struggled to get a lock on at that speed.

And the rhetoric from the Reagan White House and planned placement of Pershing missiles had soviets leaders on edge.

Combined with the paranoia a totalitarian regime produces, the perfect situation was created to cause people involved to do exactly the wrong thing. Great article here written at the time and without black box data that pretty much got it right.http://www.jamesoberg.com/SaylesReview.pdf

I will not be surprised to learn that stupidity, poor organization and training, and bad leadership (more than pure evil) caused this latest tragedy.

But also to be fair this plane was exactly where it was supposed to be.

[Gnam]

Unfortunately the US also has downed a commercial airliner. I think it was in the late 80s, Iran Air I believe.
Yes. If a mistake can be made once, it can be made twice.

[nrc]

As the world stamps its feet indications are that none of this is going to have any impact on Putin's actions.

http://online.wsj.com/articles/russians-hear-news-about-malaysia-airlines-flight-17-thats-good-for-kremlin-1405910119

[cameraman]

Why would it cause Putin problems at home?


MH17 is actually MH370, that Malaysia Airlines flight that disappeared into the Indian Ocean. According to this theory, the plane didn’t disappear at all, “it was taken to an American military base, Diego-Garcia.” Then it was taken to Holland. On the necessary day and hour, it flew out, bound for Malaysia, but inside were not live people, but corpses. The plane was flown not by real pilots; it was on autopilot. Or take-off (a complicated procedure) was executed by live pilots, who then ejected on parachutes. Then the plane flew automatically. In the necessary spot, it was blown up, without even using a surface-to-air missile. Instead the plane was packed with a bomb, just like the CIA did on 9/11.

http://www.newrepublic.com/node/118782

[mapguy]

671

[Tifosi24]

The Russians finally went along with a UN Security Council resolution! Granted, it would be hard to support a resolution calling for the proper treatment of a crime scene and human remains, but you never know with them. I listened to most of the comments from various countries on the council, and I give a :thumbup: to Germany for calling out Russia by name asking them to exert their will on the "rebels" and :thumbup:x2 to Canada for going after Putin personally on this topic. Mostly sabre rattling, but it was stronger talk than the other members who used the classic "actors in the region" talk. The 800lbs gorilla is already made, you might as well call him by name.

[SteveH]

I hope Europe continues in solidarity with sanctions. It may pinch them financially, certainly more than some sharply worded comments this afternoon did.

[Gnam]

...and :thumbup:x2 to Canada for going after Putin personally on this topic. Mostly sabre rattling, but it was stronger talk than the other members who used the classic "actors in the region" talk. The 800lbs gorilla is already made, you might as well call him by name.
I think he still likes his chances. ;)

http://s8.postimg.org/blpmkork5/Crimea_Bracketology.jpg

[cameraman]

I hope Europe continues in solidarity with sanctions.

Best laugh of the day.

[Gnam]

Best laugh of the day.
I just heard a Brit on a morning business show call the effort to impose sanctions on Russia a "witch hunt" "without a single piece of evidence." He then went on to make the argument that even if the SA-11 missile was made in Russia, the Russians are not responsible for the way it was used, as if the rebels were customers and Russia was a just a disinterested party conducting international commerce.

:eek:

I couldn't tell if was being paid to say it, or if it was just willful denial.
Holy mackerel.

[SteveH]

France is close to finalizing a huge military helicopter sale to Russia. Should be the first thing to be stopped.

[stroker]

France is close to finalizing a huge military helicopter sale to Russia. Should be the first thing to be stopped.

the French? Seriously? They wouldn't stop a sale if Putin had been found in bed with their deceased 10 year old daughter...

[SteveH]

France Prepared to Cancel Warship Sale to Russia (http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-07-22/france-prepared-to-cancel-warship-sale-to-russia.html)

I was close, it's a helicopter carrier.

[Gnam]

I was close, it's a helicopter carrier.
I wish that boat was nuclear so we could hear the Ukrainians and the Russians bicker about the "newclear wessesls." ;)

The European business community is on Russia's side. Now their politicians have to figure out a way to tell America to get bent without financial repercussions or looking like they are ignoring the 200+ victims.

Once again, America gets to be the jerk for pointing out the bad behavior of others and suggesting it stop.

[opinionated ow]

I wish that boat was nuclear so we could hear the Ukrainians and the Russians bicker about the "newclear wessesls." ;)

The European business community is on Russia's side. Now their politicians have to figure out a way to tell America to get bent without financial repercussions or looking like they are ignoring the 200+ victims.

Once again, America gets to be the jerk for pointing out the bad behavior of others and suggesting it stop.

To be fair it was us that first called Putin out on this.

[Kiwifan]

Yeah, I thought the Budgie Smugglar spoke very well considering the whole tragedy of events.

Our "Key in the Security Council" called Putin out too but possibly wasn't as strong as Two Tony.

Trading partners can be funny bedfellows at times. :-(

[opinionated ow]

Yeah, I thought the Budgie Smugglar spoke very well considering the whole tragedy of events.

Our "Key in the Security Council" called Putin out too but possibly wasn't as strong as Two Tony.

Trading partners can be funny bedfellows at times. :-(

Our lack of real interaction with Russia gives us pretty free reign though. Realistically we've not really had any relations of significance (positive or negative) since the Petrov Affair 60 years ago and we don't have any statistically significant trade either.

[Tifosi24]

I wish that boat was nuclear so we could hear the Ukrainians and the Russians bicker about the "newclear wessesls." ;)

The European business community is on Russia's side. Now their politicians have to figure out a way to tell America to get bent without financial repercussions or looking like they are ignoring the 200+ victims.

Once again, America gets to be the jerk for pointing out the bad behavior of others and suggesting it stop.

You are totally correct, the ultimate outcome of this situation, and any future transgressions, lies in the hands of Continental Europe. They are now extremely dependent upon Russia for energy (especially natural gas), and I don't think they have the stomach to turn their back on it, even though North America and Australia have the ability to meet their need over the next 50 years with minimal impact on prices. The German response at the Security Council was harsher rhetoric than I anticipated, but I expect that their captains of industry will tell Angela that we can't make Russia mad.

I am anxious to see how everyone reacts this winter when the Russians, more than likely, decide to play chicken with Europe's gas supply. That will be another litmus test in terms of resolve from Continental Europe, I am not holding my breath.

[Napoleon]

I was close, it's a helicopter carrier.

Better yet, that article does not say it but the vessel was to be named Crimea (and it was named before Russia seized the Crimea).

[EVL29]

Unfortunately the US also has downed a commercial airliner. I think it was in the late 80s, Iran Air I believe.


An Iranian commercial carrier was shot down by the USS Vincennes in 1988,if I remember correctly. The Aegis radar system was new and apparently mistook the aircraft,headed on course for the Vincennes,to be a military plane.

CNN showed video from the bridge of the ship when it launched its missile. The crew was seemed to think it was a military plane,by their reactions.


Just going off memory here but it was a pretty big deal at the time.

[gjc2]

From what I remember, the Iran Air pilot didn't respond to radio commutations from the ship whether it was because he didn’t hear them or he was just being a jerk, I don’t know.

[Andrew Longman]

From what I remember, the Iran Air pilot didn't respond to radio commutations from the ship whether it was because he didn’t hear them or he was just being a jerk, I don’t know.Yes, IIRC the Iranian pilots were told not to recognize the USN as a legit controlling authority or sum such. But I might be a victim of my country's propaganda. :gomer:

Either way it was an example of what can happen when stressed boys get deadly toys.

[nrc]

Iran Air shoot down was largely the result of paranoia and confirmation bias. They believed it was Iranian F14s so they missed clear indications that it was civilian flight. The IFF was broadcasting the correct information as a civilian flight and they were on a normal flight path.

[Insomniac]

Maybe Wikipedia will help. ;) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_Air_Flight_655

[TravelGal]

Then there's Cubana flight 455, which was "allegedly" shot down by the CIA. The last of the men convicted of this still lives, free, in Miami, which rankles the Cubans no end. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cubana_Flight_455

[opinionated ow]

One of the biggest differences no doubt was that the Americans admitted culpability for the Iran one.