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View Full Version : I'm an idiot, engineering division



datachicane
01-11-15, 07:29 AM
On the way back from Portland a couple of months ago, I noticed my daily driver Mustang was running very, very poorly when I stopped at an exit. This is the highly modified '65 convertible I'd posted pics of earlier. I bumped the idle up enough to keep it from dying and babied it home. I went through all of the usual stuff- spark and fuel were fine, I installed block-offs on the two secondary carbs and swapped carbs around to verify that I hadn't sucked any crap into a jet, swapped out the PCV, etc. The cam is too lopey to do much good checking vacuum, but as poorly as it was running it would have to be one heckuva vacuum leak, which I couldn't find in any case. The temp stayed rock solid, which also seemed to eliminate a vacuum leak of that size.

I'd spend a day or so on it, get buried with work for a few weeks, sneak in another hour or two, repeat until last weekend. I decided the only logical next step was to pull the head and check for camshaft failure, and I knew given my workload that getting a day free to work on it wasn't going to happen anytime soon. I swallowed my ego and took it to a shop. I built this engine (and the one before it), and it's the first time this car's been to a mechanic in 25+ years and 200k miles. That hurt.

Most shops won't touch a car like this. Luckily there's an old-time mechanic still around that I used to go to in high school, before I figured out what I was doing. It took him nearly two days to find the problem, and it was my fine engineering to blame. These engines were designed for durability, not performance, and one of the performance shortcomings comes from the #3 and #4 exhaust ports being siamesed together into a giant outlet, probably over 3x the size of the other ports. Aftermarket port dividers that separate these and knock the ports back down to size used to be popular back in the day, and I've run a few in various other cars with the same engine. The mfgrs recommend that they either be high-temp epoxied or tack welded in place, and I've had both fail, usually grinding a hole in your expensive headers in the process. When I built this head for the first time back in the early '90s I wanted to make certain that never happened with this one, so I drilled and tapped the head and bolted the divider in, nice sanitary countersunk install. Problem solved. The intake manifold and cylinder head is also integral on this engine, and you can just see the end of the bolts looking into the intake from the primary carb mount.

Fast forward to a couple of months ago. The high-temp threadlock on one of those bolts had failed, and vibration had loosened it until it dropped out and exited through the exhaust system. This left a neat, efficient port between the exhaust and intake manifolds, so vacuum was radically pulsing in time with the exhaust pulses, while leaving the average right where it should be (thus the constant temps).
Yeah, nice design.

At least it's back on the road. Glad I'm not working for SpaceX.

pfc_m_drake
01-11-15, 01:59 PM
It's actually a nifty story. If I had a $1 for every time I ran into a situation where I said to myself, "There's no way that X failed in Y manner..." I'd be retired.

Hell, to this day I'm amazed that wire nuts work as well as they do...

nrc
01-11-15, 02:04 PM
At least it ended up in the exhaust and not the intake, although you may have found it quicker that way. :)

I can't think of any specific examples, but I know I've had my own cases of "fixing" a bad idea that later failed in a way that demonstrated the reasoning behind it. I'm glad I don't design bridges.

datachicane
01-12-15, 04:16 PM
My wife just called me out on my OCD on this one, reminding me that the setup had worked just fine for well over 100k miles, 20 years and a couple of builds. The last straw for her was when I mentioned that I might need to make my own threadlock, since I couldn't guarantee that I wouldn't get another bad batch otherwise. I'd re-threadlocked and torqued these when I prepped this head the last time, about three years ago.

OK, I might need to readjust my reliability standards for a 50-yr old car that was cheap when it was new. Aerospace it ain't.

pfc_m_drake
01-12-15, 09:34 PM
Keep in mind I'm an Aero guy and not a mechanical guy, so take this with a grain of salt...

I wonder if your threadlock is NOT to blame? I'm guessing you used steel bolts for this 'divider' part that you fabricated. You said that you re-threadlocked and re-torqued them 3 years ago, yes? Did you replace the bolts at that time, or reuse the same ones???

I'm thinking that, since the bolt are right at the exhaust (high temperature) that ultimately it wasn't the threadlock that gave out, but rather the bolt 'relaxed' over time due to high temp creep/fatigue interaction...particularly if you reused the same bolts 3-years ago during the rebuild. They would have stretched over time, relaxed their clamping force, and ultimately exited.

The pisser, of course, being that would NOT happen with high temp epoxy or a tack-welded joint. But I agree with you 100%, neither of the aforementioned methods give me confidence either.

If you did reuse the same bolts during your rebuild 3 years ago - that might have been the root of your problems. Replacing them would have 'bought you time', but the problem may have crept up (no pun intended) eventually. I wonder if switching to Inconel 718 bolts would cure the problem?

All that said - keep in mind my intro statement, and I strongly encourage you to ignore this entire discussion, as I am obviously talking out of my orifice :)

datachicane
01-14-15, 12:39 AM
Yep, grade 8 bolts, cast iron divider into a cast iron head. I did reuse the same bolts, this is the second disassemble/retorque since the initial build. As thin as the cross section of the cast iron is, and given the uneven nature of the mating surface between the two cast parts (heat sink comprised of appx. 1.5cm high corrugations, 1cm centers, hand-filed for fit) I didn't put a bunch of torque on it, so I'd assumed there wouldn't be much of a stretch involved.

Having given it some more thought, I think I'm going to cross-drill the ends of the bolts where they protrude into the intake, and I should just have room through the carb pad to safety wire the two together. God help whoever inherits this thing when I die.

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-OGUtmz6c3uU/U5VGIht6SvI/AAAAAAAAFb4/DlQ9P6Kid4Y/s800/10344385_10152134374841479_8930473148730600556_o.j pg

G.
01-14-15, 02:32 AM
The last straw for her was when I mentioned that I might need to make my own threadlock,

Poetry. Pure ****ing poetry.

:laugh:

Tifosi24
01-14-15, 08:13 AM
If I told my wife I was going to make my own threadlock, she would probably smack me across the head or sell the car for $100 on craigslist while I was at work. You must have a keeper.

My mechanical aptitude is limited, but we were drilled regularly in my year of AET work in college to never reuse bolts. Grade 8s are really strong, so I can't imagine the torque fatigue was much, but after I saw that bolts were reused I had an instant flashback to the engine rebuild course. But, I agree that the "fun" you are having is a bit more than just bolts.

pfc_m_drake
01-14-15, 10:19 AM
Yep, grade 8 bolts, cast iron divider into a cast iron head. I did reuse the same bolts, this is the second disassemble/retorque since the initial build. As thin as the cross section of the cast iron is, and given the uneven nature of the mating surface between the two cast parts (heat sink comprised of appx. 1.5cm high corrugations, 1cm centers, hand-filed for fit) I didn't put a bunch of torque on it, so I'd assumed there wouldn't be much of a stretch involved.

Having given it some more thought, I think I'm going to cross-drill the ends of the bolts where they protrude into the intake, and I should just have room through the carb pad to safety wire the two together. God help whoever inherits this thing when I die.

If you have my luck, that safety wire will end up getting 'ingested' at some point :irked:
At a minimum you can switch to stainless steel bolts at some point. They have a bit more temperature margin than plain carbon which might (or might not!) help.

Good luck with it!

datachicane
01-14-15, 04:53 PM
The fear of ingestion is why I'd resisted the temptation before.

Clearly, the only thing to put my mind at ease is to drop the $ for one of those big-buck AL heads, probably with a trio of DCOEs.
The kid is scary-bright, surely she'll end up with some juicy scholarships. Off to convince the wife :tony:

NismoZ
01-14-15, 05:09 PM
Yeah, when the temp dropped to well below zero awhile ago my little tire pressure light came on so I added some air. I was SO proud!:gomer:

Gnam
01-14-15, 05:25 PM
Instead of tie wire, is there enough room to damage the last thread?
That would prevent the bolt from backing out and prevent anything dropping into the engine.