2018

[TravelGal]

I see a lot of articles, which I don't have time to read right now, about Indy Car 2018. Is anyone reading them? Is there anything to it or just more smoke and mirrors? Just wondering and hoping for the Cliff Notes version from the cognoscenti.

[Ed_Severson]

I see a lot of articles, which I don't have time to read right now, about Indy Car 2018. Is anyone reading them? Is there anything to it or just more smoke and mirrors? Just wondering and hoping for the Cliff Notes version from the cognoscenti.

It's just a series that Racer has put together, asking a bunch of people involved in the sport in different capacities to record what they think the direction of the series should be for the next 3 years and what should be the goal of the series in 2018 (presumably the year the next new chassis is introduced). Been too busy myself to read most of them, but the one Mario wrote was pretty good.

[G.]

What I've seen is the same **** that we've been saying since the late '90's or so. Open the specs, sell the Leeegue, etc., but from the eeleet gomeratti this time.



I'm finding it more interesting that the aero bits are screwing up the Dallara design.

H&C aero kits are putting too much downforce on the chassis, so they have to redesign it. :laugh:

But of course, they have to do it in a way that is fair and equitable to Honda and Chevy, which is turning out to be hard work. :rofl::laugh::D:rofl:

[mapguy]

Key Liquidators are looking forward to a booming 2018.

[stroker]

A more important question is how many fans they'll have left in 2018...

[cameraman]

I'm sure the fan base will be about the same size as it is now. Everyone who was going to drop it did so a while ago.

[TravelGal]

It's just a series that Racer has put together, asking a bunch of people involved in the sport in different capacities to record what they think the direction of the series should be for the next 3 years and what should be the goal of the series in 2018 (presumably the year the next new chassis is introduced). Been too busy myself to read most of them, but the one Mario wrote was pretty good.

Thanks, Ed. Good to see you around here in the off season. I think I still have the email link in my "hobby" email inbox.


Key Liquidators are looking forward to a booming 2018.

:laugh: :laugh: but I think Cameraman is right. Those who wanted to leave did. The rest stayed and I think some others come onboard because of new venues or general curiosity about what's happening that weekend in their city.

[Napoleon]

I'm sure the fan base will be about the same size as it is now. Everyone who was going to drop it did so a while ago.

Well, less those that pass in the 3 years.

[NismoZ]

Re the aero "packages." What is their point? I recall posting WAAAY back that ONE is inevitably going to be superior (faster) than the others...so why wouldn't they ALL want or demand THAT one? Was the idea to make them all EQUAL but LOOK differently? Just a way to make it appear that there is more than a SINGLE manufacturer "competing" for a title? A way to placate a NASCAB fan mentality that needs "brands" to identify with?..."Why, HAIL boy, I'm a Dallara man, always HAVE been! My Daddy drove a Dallara to work for 40 years..." Really, "aero packages?" Fine, you take the one that LOOKS the coolest...I want the one that WORKS the best...and if THAT isn't the reason for the different looks... then STUFF it! How will it be determined WHO gets WHICH "package"? Sorry if this makes no sense to anyone but I haven't done much checking up on IndyCar in about 20 years.

[Ed_Severson]

How will it be determined WHO gets WHICH "package"?

If you have a Chevy engine, you get the Chevy aero kit. If you have a Honda engine, you get the Honda aero kit. There's no choice to be made.

[NismoZ]

Ok...I think I realized that much BUT...are Chevy and Honda busily engineering away and putting in wind-tunnel time and spending gobs of $$ to produce a winner or are they restricted in some way TO ICR "specs" of some sort? If the whole idea is to merely give each manufacturer a different "look" to please the fans or simply to identify the origin of the engine...gosh, I don't know...why wouldn't a big ol', HONDA logo or a Bowtie emblem on a wing or side pod be enough? Money-saving for sure! Who here ever had trouble knowing what mfgr. was powering CART cars? Apologies again but this is taking YEARS to perfect!?

[Ed_Severson]

Ok...I think I realized that much BUT...are Chevy and Honda busily engineering away and putting in wind-tunnel time and spending gobs of $$ to produce a winner or are they restricted in some way TO ICR "specs" of some sort? If the whole idea is to merely give each manufacturer a different "look" to please the fans or simply to identify the origin of the engine...gosh, I don't know...why wouldn't a big ol', HONDA logo or a Bowtie emblem on a wing or side pod be enough? Money-saving for sure! Who here ever had trouble knowing what mfgr. was powering CART cars? Apologies again but this is taking YEARS to perfect!?

Both have spent significant time testing, both in the wind tunnel and on track, as well as running extensive development via CFD to get the best possible package. There are only 2 restrictions -- only certain areas of the cars are open to development for 2015, and the price point for the kit is fixed by IndyCar. Other than that, you put on track the best product you can.

I think the best thing that could happen -- barring a major step forward on engine development by Honda -- is that the Honda aero kit is decidedly better than the Chevy kit, to help close the gap that existed between the two at the end of 2014. If Honda hasn't made up a bunch of engine ground on Chevy or if the Chevy aero kit is superior, Honda teams are going to have it rough this season, because they were already behind.

[Duroc]

Well, less those that pass in the 3 years.

They will continuously approach zero, but never get there.

I would suggest any discussion of a "fanbase" in regards to the cold ashes that are the remains of US open wheel is delusional. They're papering the house for the big race with grocery chain freebies and running a club track in a swamp ffs. :tony:

[cameraman]

Both have spent significant time testing, both in the wind tunnel and on track, as well as running extensive development via CFD to get the best possible package. There are only 2 restrictions -- only certain areas of the cars are open to development for 2015, and the price point for the kit is fixed by IndyCar. Other than that, you put on track the best product you can.

I think the best thing that could happen -- barring a major step forward on engine development by Honda -- is that the Honda aero kit is decidedly better than the Chevy kit, to help close the gap that existed between the two at the end of 2014. If Honda hasn't made up a bunch of engine ground on Chevy or if the Chevy aero kit is superior, Honda teams are going to have it rough this season, because they were already behind.

Looks like your trip to Brazil just got canceled. Are the teams losing money on travel/hotel bookings or is there some kind of insurance mechanism that covers races vanishing?

[Chief]

Race vanishing... :laugh:

To think...the only thing that needs to vanish unfortunately still exists. :p

[TKGAngel]

Race vanishing... :laugh:

To think...the only thing that needs to vanish unfortunately still exists. :p

Races vanishing, Barnhart back in race control. Its like they don't learn.

[Ed_Severson]

Looks like your trip to Brazil just got canceled. Are the teams losing money on travel/hotel bookings or is there some kind of insurance mechanism that covers races vanishing?

I have absolutely no idea. I was never going to Brazil; I left Coyne in October and I'm working on a Lights program now.

[NismoZ]

Well, good for you! Those new cars look great...The "Super Atlantic" idea I floated around here, YEARS ago!:D LOVE my little MZR...263 turbo...could you shoot me a power figure for the R? The Swift Atlantic Mazda was 300 (NON turbo) All I know is Indycar was worried when some insiders were suggesting the new Lights car should be a turbo-4...could be pushing the IndyCars on certain tracks? Scott Hargrove, Spencer Pigot & others...there is some real talent there as well. I just hope the field is larger than it LOOKS to be by race 1....

[Ed_Severson]

Nominally, the engine produces 450 peak horsepower.

If I had to guess, I'd say the field will be about 15 full-time entries and a couple part-timers at certain events.

[NismoZ]

Just wondering if this is the same AER P70 MZR-R that Dyson used in the ALMS series in '12? (That P1 finish at RA was CLASSIC!...'010 also!) I loved that Lola/Mazda combo, and think it made over 500 hp...RESTRICTED. Weighed all of 163lbs...looking at that thing in the paddock at RA I recall thinking what a nightmare of plumbing it was...and heat shielding all over the place! Different turbo now, maybe?

[Ed_Severson]

This one they call the P63. If I'm not mistaken, it's an evolution of the P70 but there are a couple of minor differences. Anyhow, like I said above, the nominal peak horsepower for the engine in this configuration is 450, but they claim it is capable of quite a bit more than that. The only weight figure I've seen for the engine was just a shade over 190 pounds, but I believe that included all of the ancillary stuff like the ECU, wiring harnesses, paddle shift kit, etc.

Having run it around the track a few times now, it is a fairly impressive little engine. The one drawback is that this car is subject to, without question, the absolute worst vibration of any car I've ever worked on. We were told over and over by Dallara when discussing the prototype car: "Loctite the **** out of everything".

They weren't kidding.

[SteveH]

Ed, what makes one chassis vibrate more than another?

[Ed_Severson]

Ed, what makes one chassis vibrate more than another?

It's (almost) all about the engine.

Engine balancing is a pretty complicated subject (and one which I frankly don't know an awful lot about), but the two biggest factors are primary balance and secondary balance. Primary balance refers to anything that could shake the engine once per crank rotation, while secondary balance refers to anything that could shake the engine twice per crank rotation (and so forth ad infinitum).

With an inline 4-cylinder like the one in the new Lights car, it's the secondary balance that causes the issue. The pistons move in pairs, so there are always two pistons moving up and two pistons moving down. That takes care of the primary balance of the engine. But, the pistons' reciprocal movement covers a slightly longer distance on the top half of the crank rotation than on the bottom half. So, if the crank speed is constant, that means the piston velocity isn't, and the velocity upwards is always slightly higher than the velocity downwards. As a result, the inertia of the pistons moving upward is also slightly higher than the inertia of the pistons moving downward, and that causes the secondary imbalance. It's just the natural consequence of an inline 4 configuration, and the problem gets worse the higher you go on RPM.

On road cars, this problem typically gets addressed in one of two ways -- anti-vibration engine mounts for the smaller 4-cylinder engines, and balance shafts for the larger varieties. For this particular application, a balance shaft adds unnecessary weight and complexity to the engine, so AER doesn't use one, and you can only do so much with the engine mounts to dampen the vibration effects.

[NismoZ]

You kidding?...If even I can understand that, it was a GREAT explanation! It IS one I've heard/read before but I can't recall in relation to WHAT! Balance shafts...YEARS ago Chevy sold a neat little Cosworth Vega...could have been that? I DON'T recall it being a big problem in the ALMS P1 application, but...Sure hope you guys figure out how to deal with it. Order up a season supply of Loctite!:D (What are the drivers saying...blurred vision?) Any Go-Pro in-car videos yet? Would like to HEAR what they sound like, too. I would also like to see a full field of these things on a proper road course sometime. Thanks for your attention!:thumbup:

[SteveH]

thanks ED :thumbup:

[Ed_Severson]

Anytime, guys. I really enjoy my job, and I'll happily talk about it to anybody who's interested in listening (and probably a lot of people who aren't interested). And, truth be told, it's nice to talk about this stuff and not all of the political ******** that generally is the hot topic.

Our drivers haven't really complained at all about the vibration being an issue. One of the better features of this car is that a lot of the carbon panels in the IndyCar cockpit have been replaced by high-density foam, so I think for the most part the drivers are insulated from the worst of it. The only issue we've had so far with either of our guys was a bit of dizziness during the oval test at Homestead, but I think that was the result of the HANS device putting a bit of pressure on his neck; we rearranged things a bit and he never had the issue again.

I have some onboard video, but unfortunately nothing I can share yet. My driver is fairly active on YouTube, though ... once he gets something cut and posted I'll throw a link up here.

[indyfan31]

OK Ed, I gotta be missing something here 'cause I'm having trouble with the logic behind the explanation of the cause of the vibrations.
If the crank pins are traveling in a perfect circle how can the speed of the piston be any different going up or down? :confused::confused:

[Ed_Severson]

This is a pretty clean and concise explanation which will hopefully cover it. :)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gdHQ8aTfiQQ

[TravelGal]

Even though most of this is above my brain grade, I really enjoy reading a discussion of the mechanics of car racing again. Reminds me of the halcyon days of Seventh Gear. Roar on guys, roar on. :thumbup:

[stroker]

I admire your restraint, Ed. I would have be you'd have imbedded the Turbo Encabulator link...:thumbup:

[indyfan31]

Well I'll be dipped. That actually made sense! :thumbup:

[NismoZ]

Bunch of stuff on Youtube...Great interviews with Andrew Saunders, engineering manager...Tony Cotman, project manager (Yes, the guy who floated this plan a LONG time ago, but got put on hold) In car videos from the Mid-Ohio tests, driver reaction interviews from Newgarden, Dixon, Hinchcliffe...The Racer Magizine clips. Ed's comment about more power available was confirmed by Cotman "5-600hp"...check 'em out! That is a GOOD looking car and is a big step UP!

[SteveH]

That is a GOOD looking car and is a big step UP!

I agree that it is a nice looking car, certainly much better than the previous chassis. The only issue I have with the design is the floor extensions on either end of the side pods. Ed, are these solely to prevent wheels from touching or are they aerodynamic? Regardless, I do not agree with design concepts that minimize how open the wheels are in an open wheel series.

http://amradar.ru/node/uploads/2014/05/05-22-IndyLights-2015-Car-Unveil-Wide.jpg

[opinionated ow]

I agree that it is a nice looking car, certainly much better than the previous chassis. The only issue I have with the design is the floor extensions on either end of the side pods. Ed, are these solely to prevent wheels from touching or are they aerodynamic? Regardless, I do not agree with design concepts that minimize how open the wheels are in an open wheel series.

http://amradar.ru/node/uploads/2014/05/05-22-IndyLights-2015-Car-Unveil-Wide.jpg

I think you'll find they're aerodynamic. although shiny in this picture they look no different to most other openwheelers kicking around europe.

[Easy]

I agree that it is a nice looking car, certainly much better than the previous chassis. The only issue I have with the design is the floor extensions on either end of the side pods. Ed, are these solely to prevent wheels from touching or are they aerodynamic? Regardless, I do not agree with design concepts that minimize how open the wheels are in an open wheel series.

http://amradar.ru/node/uploads/2014/05/05-22-IndyLights-2015-Car-Unveil-Wide.jpg

I don't have any direct knowledge of this new Lights chassis, but side pods have been getting smaller in general as cooling efficiency has improved. More floor is more downforce, more side pod is more drag and weight.

[Ed_Severson]

I would imagine if you asked, the answer would probably be that it's a combination of the two. I've never heard anyone say explicitly, one way or the other, what the intended purpose of the floor extensions are. But the idea with this car, like so many before it, was to try and generate as much downforce as possible with the bottom of the car, and the bigger the underwing is, the more of that you can achieve.

[Gopeddle]

No matter how you cut it, it still looks a lot better than the IndyCar.

[pfc_m_drake]

No matter how you cut it, it still looks a lot better than the IndyCar.I've been thinking that myself. I think that the lack of air-scoop as well as the absence of the rear bumpers does a *ton* to help the car's looks. Too bad the 'big cars' can't take a lesson from that.

@Ed - glad to hear things seem to be going well for you. I wish you guys the best of luck this year!