View Full Version : Germanwings A320 Crashes In the Alps
Is it just me or is the FIRST thing that comes to mind every time an event like this occurs (now)...is "terrorism"? It didn't blow up, it descends from 38,000 to 6000 in 10 minutes, a mayday call WAS made, but...? Engine loss? Pressurization loss? VERY rugged mountain area. Sad, whatever happened. Worst crash in FRANCE since 1981.:(
cameraman
03-24-15, 01:06 PM
This one will have to wait for the black boxes as there were no communications with the plane. It just fell out of the sky into the side of a very inaccessible mountain.
RIP.
TravelGal
03-24-15, 01:10 PM
Really sad. This sort of thing happened about 35 years ago in New Zealand. Plane just dropped from the sky and hit into a remote area in their alps. I was traveling in NZ at the time. I remember it so clearly because communications weren't much in those days compared to now and several of my friends thought I was on the plane that crashed. A real tragedy for all those passengers and crew. :(
Is it just me or is the FIRST thing that comes to mind every time an event like this occurs (now)...is "terrorism
It's not just you, I think the same thing, however I haven't heard the "T" word used in any news reports.
It's not just you, I think the same thing, however I haven't heard the "T" word used in any news reports.
No mention. Plus it was apparently a controlled descent into the mountain. As if they simply lost all engine power and just glided down. Not sure if that's even plausible, but it reads like that. :(
cameraman
03-24-15, 07:36 PM
Very strange. The flight stayed exactly on course until it hit the mountain, it maintained speed and it's descent rate was even and at 4000 ft/minute fast but not out of control falling fast. It was 10:30 in the morning on a clear day.
http://s2.postimg.org/89p4jfds9/9148130.jpg
Interesting that early reports said there WAS an emergency declared by the crew, now NOT. BIG discrepancy in rate of descent reports, too. I suppose speed is more important than accuracy in the "news" world? Duhhh. Have you heard of the report from an eyewitness who described the 320 as "FLYING" overhead very low? Flying, not falling out of the sky. Leaves me wondering if it had been over a Midwestern corn field instead of a European mountain range the result may have been different. (Traveling west out of Denver by air has me looking down and thinking, "... anywhere but here!") All THIS...and it is still safer than driving!
Apparently the emergency call was made by an air traffic controller monitoring the aircrafts decent.
All the news reports I heard included qualifiers "we're being told" " we're hearing" etc.
cameraman
03-25-15, 12:20 PM
The distress call was auto generated by air traffic control as radar monitored the plane's rapid descent. Nothing even slightly mysterious about that.
What makes absolutely no sense is a straight line descent to the ground seemingly without reducing power. The plane pretty much maintained cruising speed the entire way down. According to the flight radar database the plane was doing 400 knots when it hit the mountain:confused:
Napoleon
03-25-15, 12:50 PM
According to the flight radar database the plane was doing 400 knots when it hit the mountain:confused:
No wonder in pictures it looks like nothing bigger then a shoebox is left.
cameraman
03-25-15, 01:29 PM
Wonderful, the second flight recorder was ripped to pieces in the crash and there is a loose sim card with all the data on it somewhere on that mountainside:shakehead:
No wonder in pictures it looks like nothing bigger then a shoebox is left.
A shoebox might be generous. :(
cameraman
03-25-15, 02:48 PM
It is almost as if the autopilot was set to 3,800 feet instead of 38,000 and it flew the plane into the ground.:saywhat:
I thought the early crash site photos showed a dusting of snow on the mountain. But, the 'snow' was pulverized debris from the crash. :(
Napoleon
03-25-15, 05:02 PM
One of the two boxes
756
The “black boxes” record information on a steel wire. The recorder can be completely destroyed but as long as they can salvage the spool of wire they will be able to read the data.
nissan gtp
03-25-15, 08:03 PM
The “black boxes” record information on a steel wire. The recorder can be completely destroyed but as long as they can salvage the spool of wire they will be able to read the data.
the new ones are solid state
CNN breaking news
One of the pilots on Germanwings Flight 9525 was locked out of the cockpit when the plane crashed Tuesday, a senior military official told The New York Times, citing evidence from the cockpit voice recorder.
That would suggest either the remaining pilot was somehow incapacitated or flew into the mountain on purpose.
Edit: Assuming there are two pilots.
cameraman
03-25-15, 08:29 PM
The voice recording has one pilot leaving the cockpit and the other then locked the door. The majority of the tape is the second pilot trying to break down the cockpit door to get back in.
Yeah the one pilot may have flown the plane into the ground. Either pilot had a heart attack or something like it or it could have been mass murder suicide. :shakehead:
Terror...mass murder. Take your pick. Same result.
stroker
03-25-15, 10:55 PM
Sounds like another Egypt Air situation.
Keep in mind that since 9/11 the cockpit is required to be locked so it's not unusual that if a pilot leaves the flight deck they would be locked out. In the U.S. if a pilot leaves the flight deck another member of the crew is required to stay on the flight deck along with the remaining pilot. That is not required in Germany so the plane is at the mercy of the remaining pilot's physical and mental health.
Hopefully they will find the flight data recorder since that will tell us whether the plane was on auto-pilot or if it was receiving any pilot input during the decent.
A pilot was inadvertently locked out of the cockpit of a Delta flight earlier this year.
That situation ended well.
http://www.cnn.com/2015/01/30/travel/feat-delta-captain-lockout/
Reminds me of Di Hard 2...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QkCQ_-Id8zI
Napoleon
03-26-15, 08:23 AM
NY Times breaking news story that French prosecutor is saying the crash was deliberate. Below is a chunk of the story that is very interesting on how the lock out system works.
According to an Airbus video describing the operations of locking the cockpit door, it is locked by default when closed. But when a pilot wants to lock the cockpit door to bar access to someone outside, he or she can move the toggle to a position marked “locked,” which illuminates a red light on a numeric code pad outside. That disables the door, keypad and the door buzzer for five minutes.
While these functions are disabled, the video shows, the only way to make contact with the crew is via the interphone. The doors can then only be opened if someone inside overrides the lock command by moving and holding the toggle switch to the “unlock” position.
In someone outside the cockpit suspects the pilot is incapacitated, that person would normally first attempt to establish contact via the intercom or by activating a buzzer. If those efforts were unsuccessful, the video shows, a crew member outside the cockpit would need to enter an emergency code on the keypad.
The code activates a loud buzzer and flashing light on the cockpit control panel, and it triggers a timer that unlocks the door 30 seconds later. The person outside has five seconds to enter before the door locks again.
PS, I think the quote above leaves you having to infer 2 things, first that when it says you can disable the key pad from inside that the emergency override is immediately available and second that in the 30 seconds after the emergency override is used that the person inside can reset the block on the keypad and override the override.
Napoleon
03-26-15, 10:28 AM
And here is how the door lockout system works.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ixEHV7c3VXs#t=54
In the U.S. if a pilot leaves the flight deck another member of the crew is required to stay on the flight deck along with the remaining pilot.
I've read this morning that this in not an FAA requirement. It is usually SOP by the airlines. I've been flying United Express a lot lately and I'm pretty sure the attendant does not go to the cockpit if one of the pilot goes to the can.
I assume there will be mechanical and/or procedural changes made in the near future.
Coming soon to a plane near you...
http://s10.postimg.org/d2k2g39bt/latest_cb_20091004150956.jpg
TravelGal
03-26-15, 01:05 PM
Sounds like another Egypt Air situation.
Bingo.
It's awful for everyone but even more awful for the town that lost the 16 students. I agree with KLang; I don't think it's a requirement to have a crew member in the flight deck when a pilot leaves. I notice it only on Southwest. FYI, they are VERY strict about keeping anyone away from the forward restroom if it is in use (NO lines means NO ONE waiting) and seriously guard it when a pilot is in there. They also have a crew member take the pilot's place in the cockpit though I've often wondered what training those cabin attendants have to overpower a determined co-pilot should he or she go off the reservation.
Last 30 minutes of the flight: http://blogs.wsj.com/briefly/2015/03/26/germanwings-plane-crash-the-last-30-minutes-at-a-glance/?mod=e2tw
Nothing about the buzzer that is supposed to sound if the keypad is used. :confused:
The Euros are pretty set on a suicide by co-pilot theory but they say that doesn't mean there's any reason to change their procedures. :saywhat:
Report that co-pilot was 27 years old and living at home. I'd like the option to select Sully1 and Sully2 as my pilots, please.
Tifosi24
03-26-15, 03:16 PM
The Euros are pretty set on a suicide by co-pilot theory but they say that doesn't mean there's any reason to change their procedures. :saywhat:
Report that co-pilot was 27 years old and living at home. I'd like the option to select Sully1 and Sully2 as my pilots, please.
And I would like to select Al Haynes (United Flight 232) as my reserve pilot. I can't imagine the Euros won't change their procedures, several airlines have already changed their policies.
cameraman
03-26-15, 03:26 PM
Last 30 minutes of the flight: http://blogs.wsj.com/briefly/2015/03/26/germanwings-plane-crash-the-last-30-minutes-at-a-glance/?mod=e2tw
Nothing about the buzzer that is supposed to sound if the keypad is used. :confused:
That timeline is severely edited, at the press conference they listed far more identified sounds.
My son flies for United, they must have two people on the flight deck at all times. Not sure if this a United requirement or a FAA regulation.
Napoleon
03-26-15, 04:17 PM
The Euros are pretty set on a suicide by co-pilot theory but they say that doesn't mean there's any reason to change their procedures. :saywhat:
Report that co-pilot was 27 years old and living at home. I'd like the option to select Sully1 and Sully2 as my pilots, please.
4 European airlines have already announced their procedures will change. Europe is a big place and I am willing to bet the insufferable boob (I take it from others descriptions) who runs Lufthansa will rapidly find himself in the minority. I also read the pilot had his own place as well, even though at some point he listed his parents as his residence.
What is amazing to me is that since 9/11 when they upgraded the doors this is something like the 3rd or 4th time this has happened, and that doesn't count that Malaysian plane, which now you really have to wonder about. I wonder if they had the 2 person rule.
http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=20131129-0
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2002/mar/16/duncancampbell
Here's a list of incidents where cockpit access was an issue: http://www.smh.com.au/world/germanwings-plane-crash-crashes-and-near-misses-related-to-cockpit-door-locks-20150326-1m8o5b.html
CNN breaking news:
Transponder data show that the autopilot on Germanwings Flight 9525 was reprogrammed by someone in the cockpit to change the plane's altitude from 38,000 feet to 100 feet, according to Flightradar24, a website that tracks aviation data.
I'm amazed the controls would accept that command. :saywhat:
opinionated ow
03-26-15, 10:31 PM
It's not uncommon in Germany for young people to list their official address as their parent's house if they're renting. He'll i do that in Aus. He was from a small, remote town in Germany and rented in dusseldorf. The latest thing they're saying now is he took a 6month break in his flight training, like that proves something. I did a straw pole of my colleagues this morning, at least 75% of us took at least 6months off at some point...
opinionated ow
03-26-15, 10:34 PM
CNN breaking news:
I'm amazed the controls would accept that command. :saywhat:
A transponder has nothing to do with the autopilot. The transponder is self contained and shows the aircraft identity and the present altitude onto a radar screen. This is what we call secondary surveillance radar.
You could set anything you like on the autopilot as an altitude. He had to have intentionally ignored the GPWS SYSTEM and various other alerts and alarms.
You could set anything you like on the autopilot as an altitude.
That is the part that is amazing to me. There is no valid reason to change the autopilot altitude from 38000 to 100. I predict in the not too distant future it won't be accepted.
opinionated ow
03-27-15, 05:18 AM
That is the part that is amazing to me. There is no valid reason to change the autopilot altitude from 38000 to 100. I predict in the not too distant future it won't be accepted.
The pilot needs to be able to select any altitude because he may need to fly at any altitude for a whole myriad of reasons. It would be less safe to take away the pilot's ability to fly his aeroplane...
chop456
03-27-15, 05:38 AM
100' at 500mph because?
That is the part that is amazing to me. There is no valid reason to change the autopilot altitude from 38000 to 100. I predict in the not too distant future it won't be accepted.
There’s nothing that can be done to the flight systems that would prevent a suicidal or otherwise deranged pilot from intentionally crashing.
Yesterday I was talking to some people about the role of air marshals. What happens if there’s a maniacal air marshal?
That is the part that is amazing to me. There is no valid reason to change the autopilot altitude from 38000 to 100.
To land the plane?
To land the plane?
To land the plane they first take it to pattern altitude witch is a couple of thousand feet.
In this case they were flying over mountains several thousand feet high, all he needed to do is set the autopilot to 2,000 feet.
I don’t see any reason for the autopilot to have a 100 foot setting, but it didn’t make any difference.
100' at 500mph because?
To buzz the tower?
opinionated ow
03-27-15, 08:36 AM
To land the plane they first take it to pattern altitude witch is a couple of thousand feet.
In this case they were flying over mountains several thousand feet high, all he needed to do is set the autopilot to 2,000 feet.
I don’t see any reason for the autopilot to have a 100 foot setting, but it didn’t make any difference.
Because procedural altitudes are often not an even thousands of feet
Forget the "technology" and focus on the "depressed, unfit to fly" guy in the right seat...(or is it LEFT in Europe?) He knew his days as a pilot were over BUT HE WAS ALLOWED TO FLY ONE MORE TIME!? Notice the person giving out all this news to the press is a PROSECUTOR?! They don't waste time in France, do they? I see a lot of prosecutin' over this in the near future. Sad all around.
Because procedural altitudes are often not an even thousands of feet
I understand that. I didn't mean a 100 foot increment.
I can’t imagine an airliner cruising at a mere 100 foot altitude.
There’s nothing that can be done to the flight systems that would prevent a suicidal or otherwise deranged pilot from intentionally crashing.
I agree it couldn't be prevented, he could have just turned off the autopilot and nosed in. The system allowing what it did makes no sense.
cameraman
03-27-15, 11:30 AM
Forget the "technology" and focus on the "depressed, unfit to fly" guy in the right seat...(or is it LEFT in Europe?) He knew his days as a pilot were over BUT HE WAS ALLOWED TO FLY ONE MORE TIME!?
What do you mean "allowed to fly"? The airline knew nothing about any medical issues that the guy may or may not have had.
The pilot needs to be able to select any altitude because he may need to fly at any altitude for a whole myriad of reasons. It would be less safe to take away the pilot's ability to fly his aeroplane...
Agree. The pilot needs control. A suicidal pilot must be stopped before he enters the flight deck.
It is aggravating that a solution to stop suicide-terrorism has created an opportunity for suicide-mass murder. It's like one of those time travel stories where despite the best efforts the main character, history can't be changed.
:(
Allowed to fly...I meant sometime, somewhere SOMEbody had to know this guy's frame of mind... co-worker? family? a doctor? a girlfriend...I wonder how much this will cost the airline...even if they knew nothing? More is likely to change than cockpit rules. It seems he KNEW his flying days would soon end...he must have gotten that idea from SOMEbody.
When boarding a good friend of mine would stick her head into the cockpit to say hello and ask flight deck crew how they were feeling today “did everyone get a good night’s sleep?” I thought she was nuts but maybe she was on to something.
Ps: they were always upbeat and positive.
Insomniac
03-29-15, 03:15 PM
I'll just say from a technology standpoint, the planes can fly themselves today. The reason we have pilots is that technology can't account for everything. The pilots have to be able to disable/overirde any system. There is going to a be a breaker for everything on the flight deck. There are any number of ways the pilot can crash a plane, even if the co-pilot was on the flight deck, if they wanted to crash it, there'd be nothing they could do about it. Think about Asiana 214. They didn't intend to crash. A pilot could easily crash a plane on approach if they wanted. The only real solution is keeping them out to begin with, but I don't know how you do that to ensure 100% safety. Someone is going to get past whatever measure there is it seems, whether it's a loophole, someone messed up or they are simply determined.
chop456
03-30-15, 06:37 AM
A pilot could easily crash a plane on approach if they wanted.
The coverage of this Air Canada accident is worrisome, also. Nearly every news report I've seen has reported it as skidding off the runway in bad weather. What actually happened was that it hit power lines, then a radar array, then the ground, then slid ONTO the end of the runway. There's a fair bit of difference in those two scenarios.
Report: http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=20150329-0
Notice that piece of antenna sticking out of the nose? That's not standard equipment. The leading edge of that wing didn't come that way, either. :gomer:
https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8736/16346398863_75900728bd_b.jpg
cameraman
03-30-15, 10:06 AM
Landed 1100 feet short of the runway? Wonder if their altimeter was set correctly.:shakehead:
They are very lucky to be alive.
Whoa,C-man...NOT trying to "one up" you here...but words like "Lufthansa going into bunker mode"..."have admitted they knew 6 months ago Lubitz had been treated for serious depression " now public news...Yikes...Think their 300M$ fund will be large enough!?
opinionated ow
04-01-15, 10:13 AM
Whoa,C-man...NOT trying to "one up" you here...but words like "Lufthansa going into bunker mode"..."have admitted they knew 6 months ago Lubitz had been treated for serious depression " now public news...Yikes...Think their 300M$ fund will be large enough!?
Depression does not turn someone into a narcissistic mass murderer.
Depression does not turn someone into a narcissistic mass murderer.
But isn't that the way we're making them these days? Take a narcissist and add a dash of depression - presto, mass murderer.
Tifosi24
04-01-15, 11:08 AM
Depression does not turn someone into a narcissistic mass murderer.
That is what a medical examiner for Transport Canada said on the news program I watched yesterday. He surmised that the co-pilot suffered from some time of personality disorder because depressed people don't commit mass murder.
Girlfriend also said he had "turned violent" and she had to "kick him out." I don't want to ARGUE the point it just seems things are adding up...too late.:(
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