Not so clean diesel

[nrc]

Oh my. VW has been caught deliberately circumventing emissions tests on their diesel cars and then lying about it.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/09/21/us-usa-volkswagen-emission-idUSKCN0RL2EI20150921
http://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/a17430/ezra-dyer-volkswagen-diesel-controversy/

This is going to leave a mark. They have to stop selling diesels until they have a fix and they have to recall 482,000 affected cars to fix their emissions. There's no telling whether they can even meet emissions standards without significant changes or sacrificing mileage or driveability. They're almost certain to get multiple class action suits and it remains to be seen what damage these deliberate fraudulent claims about being eco-friendly will cause to their brand reputation.

[chop456]

No emissions testing for diesels where I live. :w00t: :D

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[Don Quixote]

As if its not hard enough already to find a diesel car in this country. If they were cheating just to get past the crazy California standards, I fully support them.

[dando]

Reports are that 11m cars may be involved. :eek:

[opinionated ow]

I think it is amazingly clever. Whoever it was that managed to design that technology is pretty much a genius. I'm sort of hurt that the secret got out.

[Insomniac]

Software Engineers FTW, then loss. VW only admitted to it when the EPA threatened to not certify their 2016 cars. Also, WVU Researchers first figured it out. :)

[Napoleon]

Someone is going to be sent to jail for this one. That guy who was sentenced in the last few days for selling tainted peanuts killed 9 people. I saw a calculation in the last few days that in So Cal alone the extra pollution indicates likely 12 or more deaths there alone. And this wasn't some rouge engineer. This has to go way up the chain of command. They must have tested it. It made it into multiple platforms across multiple name plates. And when they were caught they lied about it.

By the way VW set aside $7.3 Billion today to fix the 11 million cars and if the US EPA levies the maximum fine that will be over $18 billion and the facts of this case just scream for them to get hammered. I am surprised it has only lost 33% of its stock value in the last 2 days.

[Napoleon]

Oh, and a PS. The US Attorney General was recently replaced and just a week or two ago her office announced they were going to start getting tougher with corporations, then this happens. If I am a VW executive I think I would look into a summer home in Croatia, or someplace else without an extradition treaty with the US.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/10/us/politics/new-justice-dept-rules-aimed-at-prosecuting-corporate-executives.html

[dando]

I think it is amazingly clever. Whoever it was that managed to design that technology is pretty much a genius. I'm sort of hurt that the secret got out.

He was outed... :p


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=STeVTzWelns

[chop456]

Someone is going to be sent to jail for this one. I saw a calculation in the last few days that in So Cal alone the extra pollution indicates likely 12 or more deaths there alone. And this wasn't some rouge engineer.

Has anyone ever been jailed for hypothetical deaths? Hard to blame a few thousand VW diesels for an imagined death campaign when semi trucks are out there belching ten billion times more pollutants. Just because their regulations are different doesn't make their pollution any less harmful to imaginary people. I just hope Manti Te'os girlfriend hasn't been affected.



And this wasn't some rouge engineer.

Correct. It was an automotive engineer. :D

[Napoleon]

Has anyone ever been jailed for hypothetical deaths?

Maybe not, but so what. Back in the S & L Crisis in the 80s plenty of business people ended up in jail because of criminal conduct, and no one died there.

[chop456]

Maybe not, but so what. Back in the S & L Crisis in the 80s plenty of business people ended up in jail because of criminal conduct, and no one died there.

BP? 11 deaths. Gross negligence, pollution, massive fines. No jail time. Intent to pollute less than other vehicles and more than some isn't exactly mass murder.

[Napoleon]

BP? 11 deaths. Gross negligence, pollution, massive fines. No jail time. Intent to pollute less than other vehicles and more than some isn't exactly mass murder.

I don't want to veer too far off into politics but it is extremely well know at this point that we have an administration that all but completely refuses to enforce US criminal laws in such a way as to land any corporate executive in jail unless your name is Bernie Madoff. The head of BP could have beheaded those 11 guys on live TV and there is a pretty good chance that the only penalty would have been an OSHA fine. That is the reason that the announcement a few weeks ago that maybe they would start actually enforcing the laws against corporate executives is a big deal. If they are actually serious about a return to enforcing laws with jail time, the BP example is likely not relevant. The comparison that is often made is Reagan's Justice Dept handling of the S & L Crisis to the current Justice Dept's handling of the 08 meltdown (see below).


http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2011/04/14/business/20110414-prosecute.html

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/14/business/14prosecute.html

[Insomniac]

We've been in a new era for a long time. The DOJ will settle the case for a fine and no admission of wrong doing. No one goes to jail. The corporation is going to protect executives because the shareholders can't stop it or a settlement. When they weigh the cash settlement vs the taxpayer cost to take it to verdict, it's always been settle. They have deep pockets. What's a couple billion dollars of your company's money to avoid jail?

If you have money you can get settlements like Fogle and Donte Stallworth (not federal) by compensating the victims (or their families).

Maybe the change is they'll insist on some jail time, resignation, personal fine or admission of guilt as part of the settlement. But the other side still has to relent when they could take it to trial. Unless there's a smoking gun, they'd probably take their chances.

[SteveH]

VW CEO quits (http://money.cnn.com/2015/09/23/news/companies/volkswagen-emissions-crisis/index.html)

[chop456]

Well there goes the F1 team. :gomer:

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[cameraman]

You could never show a direct link between the increase in emissions from the VW cars and harm to an individual. So you can't sue for that or make criminal charges for that.

There are many other things you can sue for and there are no shortage of criminal charges possible just nat based on harm to people breathing in the same state as a car.

[Napoleon]

VW CEO quits (http://money.cnn.com/2015/09/23/news/companies/volkswagen-emissions-crisis/index.html)

. . . and per the NY Times story on the subject the German version of the SEC is looking into unusual stock movements ahead of the news breaking. I didn't mention this when I noted that in 2 days the stock had crated, but it had actually been sliding for a week or 2 or 3 in advance of the announcement.

[Andrew Longman]

Here is the literally dirty little secret about supposed clean diesels... Apparently all of them produce about 10x the pollutants in real world driving than they do in EPA tests; particularly NOx. The VW/Audis are no better or worse. This has been tracked for several years. I'll see if I can find a link.

VWs massive problem is they were first to get "caught" and there is evidence they purposely wrote software in a way to improve test results. Also damaging is diesel owners and a VW owners in particular are kinda geeky about their cars and have/had great loyalty to VW. That will create heightened sense of betrayal that will be hard to recover from.

Maybe most of all this is about very complicated and esoteric software that controls every aspect of engine performance. In court and in the court of public opinion the debate will be about a few lines of code and what the real intent was behind putting it there. That will be hard to explain in 15 second sound bites and tweets passing as actual news reporting.

[Andrew Longman]

http://www.autonews.com/article/20150922/OEM06/150929954?template=mobile

[Tifosi24]

I was contemplating this earlier today after I heard that VW was also faking tests in Europe. I would assume they tricked the test because installing other measures impact performance, mileage, or both. If mileage is impacted significantly, then the fix will also lead to an increase in emissions through lower miles per gallon. So, you will be trading lower NOx and SOx emissions for higher GHG emissions. This is a very interesting story and it will only get better in my opinion.

[Andrew Longman]

Exactly. VW already had a chance to fix this when they recalled several hundred thousand cars to make a software fix regarding emissions. But just removing the "defeat device" and correcting the software would have hurt performance and mileage in real world driving and made drivers unhappy with "the fix". That would likely have spurred a backlash that would have revealed that they had been gaming the test anyway.

Perhaps the sad fact is that they really didn't/don't have the technology to make diesels clean and all that PR and marketing they did around the Audi racing program was a lie.

[Elmo T]

This was amusing at the time. It is HILARIOUS now. :rofl::saywhat:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WNS2nvkjARk

[Gnam]

VW Engineering...you got an F.

http://static5.gamespot.com/uploads/scale_medium/57/579912/2383708-7126071829-vw-oh.gif

[chop456]

They got an F because they got caught getting an A.

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[Gnam]

They got an F because they got caught getting an A.
Yeah, but the EPA isn't the FIA. They can fool around with the rules at Le Mans without major consequence, but the Feds have teeth.

One of the presidential candidates should promise to pardon VW and sew up that Fahrvergnugen vote.