Paris

[cameraman]

If you are looking for responsible coverage of whatever is happening in Paris check out the live feed at Fance24

http://www.france24.com/en/livefeed

[dando]

:( ****ing A.

[TravelGal]

:shakehead:

[dando]

This just feels like 9/11 all over again. :( Why? :confused:

[cameraman]

This just feels like 9/11 all over again. :( Why? :confused:

It is the same overall plan. A handful of well trained suicide attackers can cause a ton of damage to civilian targets with a very high loss of life. It is much easier to pull off if you have no intention of surviving. 5 combat trained guys is all this took.

[dando]

Just don't get the need to hate. :( :confused: :shakehead:

[cameraman]

Ironically hate is their goal. Who did they target? Not the French government, not French industry, not centers of religion, not tourists or refugees. They specifically targeted 20-something French civilians. Their goal is to gin up hatred between the west and Islamic people. That is their primary strategy.

[nrc]

Until Islam undergoes a major reformation it will continue to generate individuals who are happy to die waging a war against the infidel.

[cameraman]

Until Islam undergoes a major reformation it will continue to generate individuals who are happy to die waging a war against the infidel.

1/4 of this planet is Muslim, it isn't too hard to find a couple thousand hard core extremists out of well over a 1 1/2 billion people. There is no reformation needed, they are already completely outside of Islam.

[nrc]

1/4 of this planet is Muslim, it isn't too hard to find a couple thousand hard core extremists out of well over a 1 1/2 billion people. There is no reformation needed, they are already completely outside of Islam.

Most estimates suggest that there are over 20,000 fighters in ISIS alone. 15% of Muslims support suicide bombings or other attacks against civilians in defense of Islam. That's an ideology in need of reform.

[datachicane]

Most estimates suggest that there are over 20,000 fighters in ISIS alone. 15% of Muslims support suicide bombings or other attacks against civilians in defense of Islam. That's an ideology in need of reform.

Good grief. How many Christians would advocate violence in the defense of Christianity? That's a question that reveals nothing.

20k ISIS fighters = 0.0013% of the 1.57B Muslims on the planet. They're held accountable for the actions of their outlying nutjobs but certain other prominent faiths aren't cuz, y'know, True Scotsman and stuff.

[cameraman]

Most estimates suggest that there are over 20,000 fighters in ISIS alone. 15% of Muslims support suicide bombings or other attacks against civilians in defense of Islam. That's an ideology in need of reform.

And 20% of the French ISIS fighters are converts from other religions and I would say that they are converts to ISIS not to Islam.

[Insomniac]

The religion doesn't need to be reformed. IMO the different sects need to stop fighting and oppressing. The vast majority need to decide that the minority who only want jihad is unacceptable and take action. The secular governments need to stop supporting "their" preferred Muslim groups. They are the only ones who can stop it. The idea that any outsider can do it is ridiculous. Dropping a bomb on them is a short term solution. We're better off just keeping the terrorists away as best we can (I doubt there's any 100% solution).

[Gnam]

Their goal is to gin up hatred between the west and Islamic people. That is their primary strategy.
Mission accomplished.

You can't reform Islam. They got to go. I don't care how many of them there are. Got to go.

[dando]

Eye for an eye.

http://www.cnn.com/2015/11/15/middleeast/france-announces-raqqa-airstrikes-on-isis/index.html

:thumbup: :thumbup:

[Gnam]

Looks like cancer. It's going to have to get much, much worse before the world acts, though.

http://s22.postimg.org/gr9texcap/ISIS.png

[Gnam]

comment by Faisal Saeed Al Mutar
November 15 at 4:27pm
https://www.facebook.com/faisalsalmutar/posts/906729506085781?fref=nf

It must be incredibly frustrating as an Islamic terrorist not to have your views and motives taken seriously by the societies you terrorize, even after you have explicitly and repeatedly stated them. Even worse, those on the regressive left, in their endless capacity for masochism and self-loathing, have attempted to shift blame inwardly on themselves, denying the terrorists even the satisfaction of claiming responsibility.

It's like a bad Monty Python sketch:

"We did this because our holy texts exhort us to to do it."

"No you didn't."

"Wait, what? Yes we did..."

"No, this has nothing to do with religion. You guys are just using religion as a front for social and geopolitical reasons."

"WHAT!? Did you even read our official statement? We give explicit Quranic justification. This is jihad, a holy crusade against pagans, blasphemers, and disbelievers."

"No, this is definitely not a Muslim thing. You guys are not true Muslims, and you defame a great religion by saying so."

"Huh!? Who are you to tell us we're not true Muslims!? Islam is literally at the core of everything we do, and we have implemented the truest most literal and honest interpretation of its founding texts. It is our very reason for being."

"Nope. We created you. We installed a social and economic system that alienates and disenfranchises you, and that's why you did this. We're sorry."

"What? Why are you apologizing? We just slaughtered you mercilessly in the streets. We targeted unwitting civilians - disenfranchisement doesn't even enter into it!"

"Listen, it's our fault. We don't blame you for feeling unwelcome and lashing out."

"Seriously, stop taking credit for this! We worked really hard to pull this off, and we're not going to let you take it away from us."

"No, we nourished your extremism. We accept full blame."

"OMG, how many people do we have to kill around here to finally get our message across?"

[dando]

No such thing as a bad Monty Python sketch. :) #skippedschooltoseethemeaningoflife :D

[dando]

On to Germany...

http://news.yahoo.com/police-seal-german-stadium-because-suspicious-suitcase-173737310.html

:\

[cameraman]

Serious bomb threat but no actual bomb. Europe is going to be chasing its tail for a while.

[cameraman]

The trolls are out in force tonight. There is a A380 parked off to the side at the Salt Lake airport tonight as a bomb threat was called into Air France. First time an A380 has ever been to SLC, they're too large for the facilities here. Guess there are two flights that have been diverted so far tonight.

[dando]

The trolls are out in force tonight. There is a A380 parked off to the side at the Salt Lake airport tonight as a bomb threat was called into Air France. First time an A380 has ever been to SLC, they're too large for the facilities here. Guess there are two flights that have been diverted so far tonight.

Only clear bags allowed into The Shoe Saturday. Thankfully they are giving them away free.

http://www.cleveland.com/osu/index.ssf/2015/11/ohio_state_football_new_securi.html

[TravelGal]

Vintage Gnam up above. I think you've nailed it. :thumbup:

[cameraman]

ISIS, being the media savvy *******s that they are, released a photo of the bomb they used to take down the Russian airliner. Whether or not it is real is an completely different issue. What they are doing is boasting how easily and cheaply they brought down a plane and caused an international incident.

If its true now you know why it is so hard to get a drink on a plane...

http://pbs.twimg.com/media/CUGjTKkXIAEGOHn.png

[datachicane]

Nobody expected Rick Warren, my church organist, or the Pope to "do more" (whatever that means) about the likes of noted Christian extremists Anders Breivik, Jim Jones, Timothy McVeigh, Jim Adkisson, or the KKK, but undoubtedly that's a completely different scenario because of reasons. I suspect some controversy as to who is and is not a Scotsman is involved.

OTOH, a boatload of prominent Muslims have consistently criticized and vilified Islamic nutjob extremists, but that ain't enough somehow.

[SteveH]

Nobody expected Rick Warren, my church organist, or the Pope to "do more" (whatever that means) about the likes of noted Christian extremists Anders Breivik, Jim Jones, Timothy McVeigh, Jim Adkisson, or the KKK, but undoubtedly that's a completely different scenario because of reasons. I suspect some controversy as to who is and is not a Scotsman is involved.

OTOH, a boatload of prominent Muslims have consistently criticized and vilified Islamic nutjob extremists, but that ain't enough somehow.

good point

[KLang]

good point

Not really, for instance McVeigh's motivation was not religion.

You simply don't see modern Christians behaving like these Muslim barbarians.

[nrc]

Nobody expected Rick Warren, my church organist, or the Pope to "do more" (whatever that means) about the likes of noted Christian extremists Anders Breivik, Jim Jones, Timothy McVeigh, Jim Adkisson, or the KKK, but undoubtedly that's a completely different scenario because of reasons. I suspect some controversy as to who is and is not a Scotsman is involved.

OTOH, a boatload of prominent Muslims have consistently criticized and vilified Islamic nutjob extremists, but that ain't enough somehow.

Just to be clear: nobody here has said that someone claiming to be a Christian would never kill in the name of religion. But the fact of the matter is that terrorism by Christian extremists represents an infinitesimally small proportion of terror attacks in this century. They are, by-in-large, "lone wolf" attacks with no support from any mainstream denomination or major church.

Your own list makes clear how hard it is to come up with substantial examples.

Breivik, McVeigh, and Adkisson were all right wing extremists with no religious motivation for their acts. Jim Jones was a communistic cult leader with no real connection to Christianity by the time of his "revolutionary act." The Klan is at least arguable but while they may claim to represent Christian values their aims are purely white supremacist. Moreover, Christians did speak out against the Klan. It was condemned decades ago by every major religion. It is marginalized and practically irrelevant in today's society.

The fact is that even if we were to accepted the premise that these were all Christian terrorists, their acts do not add up to a significant proportion of the deaths from terrorism in this century. The large majority of those are the work of a handful of Islamic radical groups who follow extreme interpretations of Wahhabi Islam. Moreover, deaths from actual Christian terror groups have declined to nearly nothing while deaths from Islamic groups are increasing rapidly.

The fact that over 10% of Muslims worldwide have a favorable view of these groups reflects the Medieval thinking that is still prominent among some Muslims outside the West. These are the "moderate" Muslims that feed the radical groups. Until there is a reformation that drives approval of these groups among Muslims down into the low single digits they will continue to grow and thrive.

[gjc2]

a boatload of prominent Muslims have consistently criticized and vilified Islamic nutjob extremists,

I don't think that's the case at all.

[SteveH]

Not really, for instance McVeigh's motivation was not religion.

You simply don't see modern Christians behaving like these Muslim barbarians.

While not exactly the same, no one expected the Pope or the Protestant church leadership to apologize or 'do more' for the Troubles.

[cameraman]

I don't think that's the case at all.

They do constantly but no one covers it.

[gjc2]

Take this for what its worth. I know I'm in the minority on this forum regarding all things concerning world events . . . . .


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ry3NzkAOo3s

[SteveH]

And that could be followed up with a dozen Bill Maher rants that are essentially the same. It needs to be said although I don't know if it gets us any closer to an answer.

[gjc2]

And that could be followed up with a dozen Bill Maher rants that are essentially the same. It needs to be said although I don't know if it gets us any closer to an answer.

I doubt we here on Off Camber are going to be the ones to solve this problem.

[devilmaster]

A higher power, by whatever you call it, is simply an excuse to do the **** you want to do, conscience free.

All religions, which have always been written by man, made women inferior and property, and anyone who had a different imaginary friend is wrong, and if they cannot be converted, killed.

[Stephen Fry]The word is untermensch. Translated - sub-human or not human.

Its the word given by Nazis to Jews, Eastern Europeans, Gypsies, and pretty much anyone that wasn't pure Arian blood. And after a decade and a half of Hitler, Goebels, Streicher, telling everyone that those people were untermensch, they are beneath you, then their populace believed it. And once you believe something is less than you, you can do anything to it.[/Stephen Fry]

This fight, has been going on for centuries. The only way it can stop, is that humanity as a whole become enlightened.... or humanity as a whole becomes extinguished.

Fortunately or unfortunately, depending on your viewpoint, humanity became just smart enough to devise a way of extinguishing itself, and not smart enough to devise a way of enlightening itself.

wnrzB-W_Njw

[SteveH]

I doubt we here on Off Camber are going to be the ones to solve this problem.

We might as well give it a shot, so far most of what has been attempted hasn't provided an answer. However it appears that ISIS has pissed off all of the nations that matter now, including Russia and China. A massive coalition could be formed to counter ISIS. Whether could can become will is another thing entirely.

[G.]

We might as well give it a shot, so far most of what has been attempted hasn't provided an answer. However it appears that ISIS has pissed off all of the nations that matter now, including Russia and China. A massive coalition could be formed to counter ISIS. Whether could can become will is another thing entirely.

ISIS and the caliphate is just the current boogie-man. Something else will pop up after it gets crushed.

How do we stop the steady influx of jihadists that are willing to die for a literal interpretation of an old storybook? That's the hard part.

Unfortunately, far too many "moderate" Muslims just haven't gotten pissed off enough to join up. Yet.


In my tiny, tiny knowledge base, the "moderates" give lip service to criticizing the "radicals", but they really believe the radicals to be more religious, pious, and better Muslims. That's a scary thought, and I hope that I am proven wrong.

There is a bunch of general info here, http://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/the-worlds-muslims-religion-politics-society-exec/ and if you dig a bit deeper, there are some summaries from other sources that paint a far worse picture, albeit from suspect sources. Like http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Pages/Opinion-Polls.htm

[gjc2]

the "moderates" give lip service to criticizing the "radicals", but they really believe the radicals to be more religious, pious, and better Muslims. That's a scary thought, and I hope that I am proven wrong.

That's a very scary thought, and I too hope you're proven wrong; but I think you're right.

[WickerBill]

Since we are breaking two of the only OC rules (religion and politics), let me chime in and say how disgraceful I find it that candidates for the US presidency are using these tragic events to push an anti-encryption, pro-spying-on-your-own-people message.

These terrorists used SMS and bragged about the upcoming event on Facebook. Encryption has next to nothing to do with this.

[nrc]

Since we are breaking two of the only OC rules (religion and politics), let me chime in and say how disgraceful I find it that candidates for the US presidency are using these tragic events to push an anti-encryption, pro-spying-on-your-own-people message.

These terrorists used SMS and bragged about the upcoming event on Facebook. Encryption has next to nothing to do with this.

Now you had to go an add politics into it. Where's the close button... Oh well, I'll find it later.

In a perfect world we could moderate according to the "no personal attacks" rule and then everyone could talk about whatever they want. In an imperfect world those topics tend to divide a community into camps and it's simply too much time and effort to moderate. These days this community is small enough that people abide by the personal attacks rule because we're among friends and that has allowed a little more leeway.

That said, don't make me stop this car.

[RaceGrrl]

I have moderate Muslim friends and do you want to know what I'm hearing from them on this topic? ***crickets***

[gjc2]

I have moderate Muslim friends and do you want to know what I'm hearing from them on this topic? ***crickets***

Dennis Prager has an interesting take on this subject. I won't post any links but you can Google him if you're interested.

[cameraman]

Unfortunately, far too many "moderate" Muslims just haven't gotten pissed off enough to join up. Yet.

The vast majority of people who are on the ground actually fighting ISIS are Muslims. Those Kurds we are supporting are predominantly Shafi Sunni Muslims.

[G.]

The vast majority of people who are on the ground actually fighting ISIS are Muslims. Those Kurds we are supporting are predominantly Shafi Sunni Muslims.Right. ISIS is fighting EVERYONE that isn't pledging support of the Caliphate. In Syria, it's many groups. It's fighting the Taliban in Afghanistan and elsewhere.

[TravelGal]

Now you had to go an add politics into it. Where's the close button... Oh well, I'll find it later.

In a perfect world we could moderate according to the "no personal attacks" rule and then everyone could talk about whatever they want. In an imperfect world those topics tend to divide a community into camps and it's simply too much time and effort to moderate. These days this community is small enough that people abide by the personal attacks rule because we're among friends and that has allowed a little more leeway.

That said, don't make me stop this car.

Well said, Richard. I have enjoyed reading this thread immensely because we are all in this thing called OC together yet we have probably every viewpoint from one end of the spectrum to the other. It've appreciated the opinions and the links and the intelligent way every has handled themselves. Makes me proud to be a member. :thumbup:

[Insomniac]

I have moderate Muslim friends and do you want to know what I'm hearing from them on this topic? ***crickets***

What does that mean? What are you saying about them? Did you ask their thoughts and they had nothing to say? Did you expect them to say something?

[datachicane]

Not really, for instance McVeigh's motivation was not religion.



You do realize that bin Laden's motivation was not religion, right?
He was pretty up front about what his beef was.

[datachicane]

Let me get this straight- assuming I buy the idea that the actions of .002% of the world's 1.57B Muslims really do represent the majority (and that I'm somehow entitled to decide when their criticisms of that .002% are just lip service and when they're genuine, beside the obvious fact that no one ever expects my church organist to apologize for any random Christian nutjobs just because they use the same name), it all boils down to this:

We're justified in treating an entire class of people badly precisely because they feel they're justified in treating an entire class of people badly.

[RaceGrrl]

What does that mean? What are you saying about them? Did you ask their thoughts and they had nothing to say? Did you expect them to say something?

When there's a group conversation and the topic comes up, there is no comment at all. Maybe it's fear, maybe it's because they agree, I dunno. It's just interesting because everyone else has something to say.

[nrc]

You do realize that bin Laden's motivation was not religion, right?
He was pretty up front about what his beef was.

Not true. While bin Ladin had a laundry list of grievances, they were all in service of his ultimate goal of overthrowing secular governments to "unite all Muslims and to establish a government which follows the rule of the Caliphs."



Compilation of Usama Bin Laden Statements, 1994 - January 2004, Foreign Broadcast Information Service, January 2004
http://fas.org/irp/world/para/ubl-fbis.pdf

There should be one caliph for the whole state whose capital should be Mecca. There should be one currency and defense for this state and the Holy Koran should be its constitution. The name that has been proposed for this vast state is Global Muslim State. I want to congratulate you that by the grace of God, from today, we have begun the task of achieving a highly important and strong target of domination of Islam over all other religions.

[datachicane]

Not true. While bin Ladin had a laundry list of grievances, they were all in service of his ultimate goal of overthrowing secular governments to "unite all Muslims and to establish a government which follows the rule of the Caliphs."

That's far from an uncontroversial statement. bin Laden's infamous 'Letter to America' spelled out a number of purely political grievances, and he was particularly consistent and vociferous in his criticism of the continuing presence of U.S. troops in Saudi Arabia after the Gulf War. Just like our own politicians, we should expect and be able to distinguish between comments made for foreign and domestic consumption, and there's little argument that a significant percentage of his followers were primarily interested in religious goals.

McVeigh, OTOH, gave away copies of the Turner Diaries at gun shows and even packed a copy with him when we was apprehended, which pretty clearly puts him in the thick of the Christian Identity movement.

[nrc]

Let me get this straight- assuming I buy the idea that the actions of .002% of the world's 1.57B Muslims really do represent the majority (and that I'm somehow entitled to decide when their criticisms of that .002% are just lip service and when they're genuine, beside the obvious fact that no one ever expects my church organist to apologize for any random Christian nutjobs just because they use the same name), it all boils down to this:

The real number is higher than .002%. There are 120,000 active fighters in the top four Islamic terror organizations alone. And I don't even believe that they represent the majority - only the 10% or so that surveys show support them.

I've already shown that the "Christian nutjob" premise is faulty. The Christian faith simply is not a widespread source of terrorism today. Even given that, if anyone tries to justify an act of violence or terrorism based on the Christian faith I would strongly object and I would expect Christian leaders to do the same.



We're justified in treating an entire class of people badly precisely because they feel they're justified in treating an entire class of people badly.

I don't support treating anyone badly because of their membership in a class. Every individual should be judged based on their own character and actions. But as I said, the Muslim faith has a problem. Too many Muslims are being taught a version of Islam that is incompatible with living peacefully with people of other religions and beliefs.

[datachicane]

The real number is higher than .002%. There are 120,000 active fighters in the top four Islamic terror organizations alone. And I don't even believe that they represent the majority - only the 10% or so that surveys show support them.


120k of 1.57B = 0.00764%, a vanishingly small percentage by any measure. Even if that WERE off by a factor of 10, as you assert, it's still a tiny, tiny percentage.



I've already shown that the "Christian nutjob" premise is faulty. The Christian faith simply is not a widespread source of terrorism today. Even given that, if anyone tries to justify an act of violence or terrorism based on the Christian faith I would strongly object and I would expect Christian leaders to do the same.

...and yet, you argued that the premise was faulty by dint of the assertion that they weren't really Christians at all, or that their motivation wasn't really their religion, while denying Muslims the same defense. It's the very definition of the True Scotsman fallacy. You (and I, for that matter) didn't feel that it was necessary to object to crimes committed by Christian nutjobs because we recognized that their actions had no bearing whatsoever on our faith, but we again deny the same courtesy to Muslims, despite the fact that Islam is every bit as diverse a faith as Christianity. To add further insult, while trying to frame this as some sort of Islam vs. Christianity showdown we conveniently ignore the fact that the overwhelming majority of the victims of Islamic nutjobbery has been other Muslims, not Christians.

As to whether or not Christianity is a widespread source of terrorism today, within the U.S. the body count since 9/11 would suggest that it's a greater threat than Islam. Them's the facts. Frankly, I don't think it matters much at all, since our response to criminal acts should be the same in any case, but for reasons that frankly escape me it's a subject of burning interest for some folks.




I don't support treating anyone badly because of their membership in a class. Every individual should be judged based on their own character and actions. But as I said, the Muslim faith has a problem. Too many Muslims are being taught a version of Islam that is incompatible with living peacefully with people of other religions and beliefs.

No argument with any of that. The only question is whether we choose to paint the other 99.XXX% of Islam with the same broad brush, thereby creating the finest recruiting tool that that .000X% could ever dream of. What percentage of moderate, non-crazy Christians do you think would take up arms in defense of Christianity, if the question was framed that way? That's precisely the way we're framing the question for moderate Muslims the world over.

[nrc]

That's far from an uncontroversial statement. bin Laden's infamous 'Letter to America' spelled out a number of purely political grievances, and he was particularly consistent and vociferous in his criticism of the continuing presence of U.S. troops in Saudi Arabia after the Gulf War. Just like our own politicians, we should expect and be able to distinguish between comments made for foreign and domestic consumption, and there's little argument that a significant percentage of his followers were primarily interested in religious goals.

As I already pointed out, none of those grievances are "purely political." They are all in service to his ultimate goal of creating a "Global Islamic State." I already showed that from a source translated from Arabic. He says the same thing in his "Letter to America." It all boils down to two things:

1. Get out of the Middle East so they can create their Islamic State and impose Sharia Law.
2. Convert to Islam and institute Sharia Law in America.

Everything in that "Letter to America" is in service to those two goals.



McVeigh, OTOH, gave away copies of the Turner Diaries at gun shows and even packed a copy with him when we was apprehended, which pretty clearly puts him in the thick of the Christian Identity movement.

Bin Laden stated over and over that he was acting in the name of Islam. McVeigh stated clearly that his actions were anti-government attacks intended as retaliation for government actions like Waco and Ruby Ridge. He explicitly disclaimed any religion saying that he was agnostic and that science was his religion.

[Insomniac]

With 1.5B Muslims, why are they so ineffective at creating the global Caliphate, or even a regional Caliphate?

[devilmaster]

Because they all want to be in charge......