PDA

View Full Version : 2016 F1 Race Thread (Potential Spoilers, Watch the Race First!)



Pages : 1 [2] 3

Hard Driver
07-03-16, 11:44 PM
Look, I hate Lewis more and more every day, but Nico:

- had better tires
- had a two second lead
- had the inside line

... and he blames Lewis for having the audacity for, you know, trying to make the corner? Nico got what he deserved.

+2

Nico caused avoidable collision.. Worse than that, he caused an intentional collision. Not only should the team penalize him, the stewards should as well. Causing an intentional collision, for worse than changing a gearbox to me. He should be docked 5 grid spots next race.

And if I was in charge of Mercedes, I would be incredibly mad he took points from the team. Sure he paid a penalty, but only because he was trying to take out his teammate, or both of them to keep from loosing points. I would remind him that there are lots of extremely good drivers who would love a seat at Mercedes and would not hurt the team for their own championship. This is the second time this year he has intentionally driven into his teammate.

chop456
07-04-16, 12:19 AM
I'm not saying Rosberg was right just that if the roles were reversed they woul still blame Rosberg

Agree with this.

Gopeddle
07-04-16, 11:53 AM
I believe that Nico ran wide intensionally, his break issues probably attributed to it a bit but none the less, he ran wide forcing Lewis wide. Lewis did the same thing to Nico last year in Austin, the only difference is that in Austin Nico didn't turn into Lewis. In the replay you can clearly see that Lewis turned into Nico in Austria. Lewis then immediately got on the radio screaming "he hit me, I didn't do anything wrong", or something to that effect. So I guess I'm saying that I believe that if the tables were turned, Nico would still get the blame.

Insomniac
07-04-16, 11:54 AM
Nico caused avoidable collision.. Worse than that, he caused an intentional collision. Not only should the team penalize him, the stewards should as well. Causing an intentional collision, for worse than changing a gearbox to me. He should be docked 5 grid spots next race.

10s time penalty (causing avoidable collision) and 2 penalty points (continuing to drive an unsafe car). The time penalty didn't change the race order.

WB: I'd say Hamilton had the better tires. Nico also pushed his brakes too far. But the simple fact is, he wasn't trying to take the corner, he was trying to stop Hamilton from getting past. You have to do the first one while doing the second. The first one is kind of important and a fundamental part of racing/driving. :)

Why were they booing Hamilton? Matchett alluded to knowing but wouldn't say why. Was it that nefarious?

It will be interesting to see how Mercedes handles it going forward. Would they make them hold in Austria or let the faster car in front? Do they choose #1 and #2 now? How does this impact Rosberg's contract extension? (On an aside, they reported the last deal as 3 years through 2017 but now say it's up at the end of this season.)

I know this is an ongoing debate, but what do people think of assessing penalties and taking the outcome into account?

Insomniac
07-04-16, 11:58 AM
I believe that Nico ran wide intensionally, his break issues probably attributed to it a bit but none the less, he ran wide forcing Lewis wide. Lewis did the same thing to Nico last year in Austin, the only difference is that in Austin Nico didn't turn into Lewis. In the replay you can clearly see that Lewis turned into Nico in Austria. Lewis then immediately got on the radio screaming "he hit me, I didn't do anything wrong", or something to that effect. So I guess I'm saying that I believe that if the tables were turned, Nico would still get the blame.

Maybe from biased media, but if it's me, pick any 2 drivers, the inside guy is at fault. You don't need to get into people's minds or have some deep analysis here.

Also, Hamilton did turn into Rosberg, but you don't think Rosberg maybe should've turned at some point as well? How much longer is Hamilton supposed to wait to turn? Just drive onto the runoff?

Hard Driver
07-05-16, 08:10 AM
I believe that Nico ran wide intensionally, his break issues probably attributed to it a bit but none the less, he ran wide forcing Lewis wide. Lewis did the same thing to Nico last year in Austin, the only difference is that in Austin Nico didn't turn into Lewis. In the replay you can clearly see that Lewis turned into Nico in Austria. Lewis then immediately got on the radio screaming "he hit me, I didn't do anything wrong", or something to that effect. So I guess I'm saying that I believe that if the tables were turned, Nico would still get the blame.

Austin was similar, but actually very different...
1) It was wet
2) Hamilton was ahead of Rosberg on the inside.
3) It if you look at Hamilton's onboard, He does turn the wheel to try to go to the apex and the car clearly understeeers.

Hamilton did turn the wheel, Nico did not.

Look at the 37 second mark: Hamilton has the wheel turned long before the apex
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wZhh2Kk2MUk


Look at the 1:03 second mark, and Nico has not even tried to make the corner:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W3c11GRAtI0

WickerBill
07-05-16, 08:24 AM
Going to have to agree. Regardless of position, you have to leave room for the other driver.

Inside driver cannot "set the apex" as Nico said he had the right to do - has to leave room for the car on the outside.

Outside driver cannot pinch the inside driver and leave no room.


This one is pretty straightforward.

indyfan31
07-08-16, 10:38 PM
Going to have to agree. Regardless of position, you have to leave room for the other driver.

Inside driver cannot "set the apex" as Nico said he had the right to do - has to leave room for the car on the outside.

Outside driver cannot pinch the inside driver and leave no room.


This one is pretty straightforward.

Perhaps in a Utopian version of F1, but both of those scenarios have been taking place for as long as Formula 1 has been in existence, by some of the finest drivers in history and with no reproccusions; other than crashing out of the race of course.

Insomniac
07-10-16, 01:44 PM
They gave Rosberg a 10s penalty dropping him to 3rd. The whole thing makes you wonder how/why Perez's brakes were allowed to fail last week.

Mostly a parade. Surprised it started under a safety car. Why not do the formation lap and then decide? It seems real odd people were talking about switching to intermediates (and id so as soon as it went green) while under a safety car for the wet track. I think the way they use a VSC is stupid. They should "pull it in" like a normal safety car. There should be some predictability for it.

WickerBill
07-10-16, 02:46 PM
Exactly! Start the race normally. They have wet tires. Or don't start the race - wait for the sun to beat down for 20 minutes. But I want the race to start green!

Mary
07-10-16, 06:08 PM
Don't like the rule that led to the Rosberg penalty. Tell a driver how to deal with a problem with the car (especially one the driver reported) is not the same as telling him to let someone else pass due to some prior agreement.

Mary

datachicane
07-10-16, 07:54 PM
Don't like the rule that led to the Rosberg penalty. Tell a driver how to deal with a problem with the car (especially one the driver reported) is not the same as telling him to let someone else pass due to some prior agreement.

Mary

...or Baku, where the team couldn't/wouldn't tell Hamilton how to fix his setting. Have the rule or don't, but 10 secs for two infractions (that we heard) seems like a slap on the wrist.

Insomniac
07-10-16, 08:53 PM
The stewards said some of what was said was OK, but other parts were not.


Having considered the matter extensively, the Stewards determined that the team gave some instructions to the driver that were specifically permitted under Technical Directive 014-16. However, the Stewards determined that the team then went further and gave instructions to the driver that were not permitted under the Technical Directive, and were in Breach of Art. 27.1 of the Sporting Regulations, that the driver must drive the car alone and unaided.

A 10s penalty is nothing though. He could've lost a lot more positions on track at that point and so close to the end. The rule is dumb, but Christian Horner is right that they can't be lenient here or others will risk it. He lost 3 points vs 18.

gjc2
07-10-16, 08:54 PM
They should either mandate that the cars be simpler to operate or allow "mission control" to help the pilot operate his craft.

SteveH
07-10-16, 09:18 PM
They should either mandate that the cars be simpler to operate or allow "mission control" to help the pilot operate his craft.



this, exactly this :thumbup:

WickerBill
07-11-16, 09:53 AM
The more I think about the 2017 regulations, the more I feel like they're doing the wrong thing. Chasing lap record times is a bit IRLish, where they repaved Indy for 1996 and secretly cranked up everyone's boost 2PSI so they could set a track record before they went to the tractor engines in 1997.

I think they should be reducing aero grip, leaving mechanical grip alone, and changing the fuel and rev limits far upward (double the fuel, make the rev limit 20k). Ultimately, I think everyone pays so much reverence to what Adrian Newey thinks that it is dramatically harming the sport. Every comment he makes (about liking the new rules, or hating the old ones) is about aero, not about driver talent. I'd rather the casual fan never have to hear another Adrian Newey story, instead focusing on which driver has the car control and the attachments to hit the throttle soonest coming out of the hairpin.

Insomniac
07-11-16, 11:07 AM
The more I think about the 2017 regulations, the more I feel like they're doing the wrong thing. Chasing lap record times is a bit IRLish, where they repaved Indy for 1996 and secretly cranked up everyone's boost 2PSI so they could set a track record before they went to the tractor engines in 1997.

I think they should be reducing aero grip, leaving mechanical grip alone, and changing the fuel and rev limits far upward (double the fuel, make the rev limit 20k). Ultimately, I think everyone pays so much reverence to what Adrian Newey thinks that it is dramatically harming the sport. Every comment he makes (about liking the new rules, or hating the old ones) is about aero, not about driver talent. I'd rather the casual fan never have to hear another Adrian Newey story, instead focusing on which driver has the car control and the attachments to hit the throttle soonest coming out of the hairpin.

Welcome to my side. :) I've been saying aero has ruined everything. I'm surprised they haven't done anything to constrain that cost. Limit (or ban) wind tunnel time. Limit (or ban) aerodynamic simulation software. How about you design something, manufacture it and test it on track? This must be in the air because I was thinking about it too. I wonder if that just gives someone like Newey an even bigger advantage? Mercedes had a big gap at Silverstone? What drives their performance? Is it really just HP? If everyone had a Mercedes, what is the championship looking like?

WickerBill
07-11-16, 01:03 PM
It isn't just HP, as Williams have the same-spec Mercedes - supposedly - as the factory team. They probably do have a packaging advantage, though.

Single-element front wings, dual-element rear wings, no tunnels, no turning vanes. Let them have angle of attack and flexibility of the wings, as that can teach things to the car industry. Much smaller tire sidewalls; the current tires look like they'd be at home on a 1954 Packard if you just put a fat white stripe on that massive sidewall. Then, like I said, crank up the fuel and the RPM.

What would you get? The best drivers would adapt and learn. Pay drivers, by and large, would stink. The 900-1000 HP would be moderated by much slower corners, which would obviously lead to more frequent passing zones. Dirty air would be less than half the scourge it is today. The engines would scream again.

cameraman
07-11-16, 02:35 PM
The current power units have vastly more torque that any engine from the past. It is solely controlled by the driver's foot and they have had to greatly increase the length of the accelerator pedal's travel to compensate. The coverage here does a lousy job of explaining it but the current crop of drivers have incredible pedal touch. The idea that these cars are simple to drive is just plain wrong.

Insomniac
07-12-16, 10:57 AM
I certainly don't think they're easy to drive, but the packages are too close to "perfect". There isn't any give and take on a track and the differences between the car are more technical than the drivers. I think what WB and I mean by harder to drive is the aero simply wouldn't let you hit every turn/apex perfectly. Back to the days where cars were good at different parts of the track than others.

WickerBill
07-12-16, 11:46 AM
I didn't say they're easy to drive today. But less aero would provide a wider margin between good drivers and great drivers.

WickerBill
07-17-16, 08:14 PM
http://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/johansson-urges-f1-to-move-away-from-engineering-porn-799479/


That's an unfortunate URL shorten, but it really is all about F1.

SteveH
07-17-16, 08:34 PM
:laugh:

Insomniac
07-18-16, 10:24 AM
How about the rumors that Apple may want to buy F1. As a shareholder, please don't waste that money and make BE richer. The next buyer is going to be the last guy to buy this Tulip.

SteveH
07-18-16, 10:43 AM
How about the rumors that Apple may want to buy F1. As a shareholder, please don't waste that money and make BE richer. The next buyer is going to be the last guy to buy this Tulip.

Thoughts about Apple and F1 (https://joesaward.wordpress.com/2016/07/18/thoughts-about-apple-and-f1/#comment-260295)

WickerBill
07-20-16, 08:46 AM
The current power units have vastly more torque that any engine from the past. It is solely controlled by the driver's foot and they have had to greatly increase the length of the accelerator pedal's travel to compensate. The coverage here does a lousy job of explaining it but the current crop of drivers have incredible pedal touch. The idea that these cars are simple to drive is just plain wrong.

cameraman, a counterpoint:

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/125360/alonso-not-at-all-happy-with-current-f1

Relevant quote:


"Before, after 10 laps you had to have a two-hour massage, while now you can drive 150 laps and barely sweat by the end."

Mary
07-24-16, 08:27 AM
Don't like the rule that led to the Rosberg penalty. Tell a driver how to deal with a problem with the car (especially one the driver reported) is not the same as telling him to let someone else pass due to some prior agreement.

Mary


They just did it again with Button. His brake pedal is going to the floor; McLaren told him it was hydraulics, not to shift and to stay out (much to his consternation). Then he was given a drive-thru. Jensen sarcastically asked in a separate transmission "so a brake pedal going to the floor isn't a safety issue?"

This is stupid, F1. :thumbdown:

Mary

WickerBill
07-24-16, 08:52 AM
Agree, Mary. There's a little movement going to vote Jenson "Driver of the Day", which is a fan vote, to try to make a point. But F1 doesn't exactly listen to fans.

Insomniac
07-26-16, 12:49 PM
They're on a streak of just getting it wrong. I don't understand what makes rules enforcement so difficult. Is there a lot of politicking happening in the background. They mess up no-brainers. They make exceptions to 107%. They didn't disallow some of those last laps when there were yellow flags in Q3. Credit to the sensors, but then three strikes after the weekend before was zero tolerance. Verstappen clearly makes two moves. Seriously, why are they so incompetent?

Gnam
07-26-16, 01:02 PM
Bernie Ecclestone's mother-in-law was kidnapped in Sao Paulo, Brazil.

http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2016/07/26/487462876/formula-1-boss-bernie-ecclestones-mother-in-law-is-kidnapped-in-brazil

They want $37 million to return her. They have no idea who they are dealing with. BE wouldn't pay $37 million to free himself. :laugh:

cameraman
07-26-16, 05:18 PM
They're on a streak of just getting it wrong. I don't understand what makes rules enforcement so difficult. Is there a lot of politicking happening in the background. They mess up no-brainers. They make exceptions to 107%. They didn't disallow some of those last laps when there were yellow flags in Q3. Credit to the sensors, but then three strikes after the weekend before was zero tolerance. Verstappen clearly makes two moves. Seriously, why are they so incompetent?

The 107% rule was never intended to be applied to qualifications run in a rainstorm. Yes the q1 times were much slower on a soaking wet track than the q3 times on a mostly dry track. Putting the 107% rule on that and dropping 20% of the field would be beyond idiotic.

Tifosi24
07-26-16, 07:44 PM
Bernie Ecclestone's mother-in-law was kidnapped in Sao Paulo, Brazil.

http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2016/07/26/487462876/formula-1-boss-bernie-ecclestones-mother-in-law-is-kidnapped-in-brazil

They want $37 million to return her. They have no idea who they are dealing with. BE wouldn't pay $37 million to free himself. :laugh:

Actually Bernie is going to charge them $40 million for the right to negotiate with him.

Insomniac
07-27-16, 10:31 AM
The 107% rule was never intended to be applied to qualifications run in a rainstorm. Yes the q1 times were much slower on a soaking wet track than the q3 times on a mostly dry track. Putting the 107% rule on that and dropping 20% of the field would be beyond idiotic.

This was the part I was referring to:


Article 35.1 of the sporting regulations states: "During Q1, any driver whose best qualifying lap exceeds 107% of the fastest time set during that session, or who fails to set a time, will not be allowed to take part in the race.

"Under exceptional circumstances however, which may include setting a suitable lap time in a free practice session, the stewards may permit the car to start the race.

"Any driver accepted in this manner will be placed at the back of the starting grid after any other penalties have been applied.

"Should there be more than one driver accepted in this manner they will be arranged on the grid in the order they were classified in P3."

It's the fact that they weren't moved to the back, not that they should be excluded. Everyone had access to the same session and tires. It was solely based on Q1 times, not Q3 vs Q1.

cameraman
07-27-16, 12:02 PM
This was the part I was referring to:



It's the fact that they weren't moved to the back, not that they should be excluded. Everyone had access to the same session and tires. It was solely based on Q1 times, not Q3 vs Q1.

So you are arguing that the proper thing would be to move:

P3 Daniel Ricciardo
P4 Max Verstappen
P9 Nico Hulkenberg
p10 Valtteri Bottas
p13 Sergio Perez

Behind Gutierrez and Nasr because they didn't set time above the 107% mark which was set in the last second of a Q session on a drying track?

That is not what the rule was designed for. THE RULE EXISTS TO REMOVE DANGEROUSLY SLOW CARS. This was not the case here. Moving the second row of the grid to the back of the grid is absolutely asinine.

The steward's discretion was to not invoke the 107% rule at all.

Insomniac
07-27-16, 02:58 PM
So you are arguing that the proper thing would be to move:

P3 Daniel Ricciardo
P4 Max Verstappen
P9 Nico Hulkenberg
p10 Valtteri Bottas
p13 Sergio Perez

Behind Gutierrez and Nasr because they didn't set time above the 107% mark which was set in the last second of a Q session on a drying track?

That is not what the rule was designed for. THE RULE EXISTS TO REMOVE DANGEROUSLY SLOW CARS. This was not the case here. Moving the second row of the grid to the back of the grid is absolutely asinine.

The steward's discretion was to not invoke the 107% rule at all.

You isolated one item of my list of inconsistent stewards decisions. I'm not saying they should do that, but it's that they use discretion like that to make all manner of decisions.

Mary
07-28-16, 07:05 AM
Actually Bernie is going to charge them $40 million for the right to negotiate with him.


I guess I shouldn't laugh at this poor woman's misfortune, but this chain is hysterical.

Mary

WickerBill
07-28-16, 07:53 PM
Radio conversation limits completely lifted starting tomorrow. http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/125502/restrictions-on-radio-messages-in-f1-lifted

Insomniac
07-29-16, 11:19 AM
Radio conversation limits completely lifted starting tomorrow. http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/125502/restrictions-on-radio-messages-in-f1-lifted

Was this a long way to get:


"This approach is aimed at providing improved content for fans and spectators, as teams will now be required to provide the commercial rights holder with unrestricted access to their radio messages at all times their cars are out of the garage."

Mary
07-30-16, 12:46 PM
Was this a long way to get:

ummm hmmmm.

Mary

Insomniac
07-31-16, 05:12 PM
I guess the race was won at the start. I'm sure Vettel held up Raikkonen from even attempting a challenge to Rosberg/Red Bulls. Rosberg pulls the same crap again and uses the same "full lock" excuse. This time it maybe cost him 6 points. Ricciardo getting past Verstappen did seem too easy and then Max said he let him by post race. Anyone else think Verstappen messed with Alonso for holding him up after he got by him? 4 weeks until the next race...

Hard Driver
08-01-16, 06:15 PM
I guess the race was won at the start. I'm sure Vettel held up Raikkonen from even attempting a challenge to Rosberg/Red Bulls. Rosberg pulls the same crap again and uses the same "full lock" excuse. This time it maybe cost him 6 points. Ricciardo getting past Verstappen did seem too easy and then Max said he let him by post race. Anyone else think Verstappen messed with Alonso for holding him up after he got by him? 4 weeks until the next race...

Rosberg deserved the penalty.. Guy doesn't know the difference between sliding a little wide on exit to slide the guy onto the curb, and just not turning into the corner and driving the guy off the track. Also has the best car on the track, but can't track down the guys ahead of him... Will say his crew took like 8-10 seconds to serve a 5 second penalty.. that was stupid.

Ricciardo was on the reds, and Verstappen on the yellows,, so the Riciardo strategy was to go faster at first on reds, to hold your teammate up to screw his strategy would be a douche move to the team.

Mary
08-01-16, 07:05 PM
I guess I shouldn't laugh at this poor woman's misfortune, but this chain is hysterical.

Mary


According to the BBC, Bernie's mother-in-law is okay... http://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-36938252?ocid=global_bbccom_email_01082016_top+new s+stories

...and he didn't have to pay anything. She was kidnapped on 7/22/16 however; that's a long time and she's very lucky.

Mary

dirtyboy
08-26-16, 03:02 AM
I've lived this close to Spa for 3 years and still haven't gone. I'm a real dumb-dumb.

chop456
08-26-16, 04:32 AM
I'll have to agree. Say - how's your couch? Comfortable and sturdy enough for one generously-proportioned gentleman? Maybe I force you to go sometime? FYI - my Spanish is decent.

WickerBill
08-26-16, 07:37 AM
It's SPA... you have to go before Bernie has one of his fits and removes it from the calendar!

dirtyboy
08-27-16, 08:26 AM
I'll have to agree. Say - how's your couch? Comfortable and sturdy enough for one generously-proportioned gentleman? Maybe I force you to go sometime? FYI - my Spanish is decent.

Its not a problem. The couch fits an American sized body. However, the sandwiches in Germany are inedible.

Hell, I'm even closer to the Nürburgring and never been there either. Me at 15 years old wouldn't believe how lazy I am now.

Insomniac
08-28-16, 10:15 PM
I was surprised they were quick to blame Max for turn 1. I thought Vettel cut across Kimi for sure. But Max made a boneheaded move there on the inside regardless. He was going to hit Kimi. He was so off on taking that turn in any way o stay on the inside that he was going straight to the outside. Rosberg had 4s on lap 1! The VSC is basically an opportunity to close the gap. Perez had +2s at least on Rosberg coming out. Why did Mercedes put Hamilton on softs? Would the mediums not have made it to the end? Good run for Force India. Vettel vs Kimi has completely flipped. Not sure that it's luck/circumstance. I enjoyed Kimi and Vettel's interviews. Look at Buxton stirring up the pot with Max's driving. He's an aggressive passer which is great, but also an aggressive blocker, which isn't so great. Opposite sides of the same coin? The Magnussen crash...on screen the graphic showed 12.5 Gs (my guess is either that stopped getting data or where the graphic limit is, it seemed like it was higher, but if not, great job absorbing the energy) and the cockpit piece just flew out on impact. Alonso had a good run going.

WickerBill
08-29-16, 08:32 AM
Button would have been top 6-ish as well; had a really great start. I fear Ron Dennis has made up his stupid mind and Button is going to be out of F1.

Agree on Max. If Vettel doesn't come down and clip his teammate, there still would have been an accident about 15 feet further around the corner - Max sliding into Kimi.

Insomniac
09-04-16, 05:24 PM
That was a snooze fest. Hamilton botches the start. Mercedes does one less stop and it's a one-two with Rosberg all smiles (and getting Seven Nation Army going). The TV guys were oddly baffled by strategy. They thought somehow Hamilton needed a big gap to Ferrari or that Ferrari would be threatened by other 2 stop teams.

opinionated ow
09-04-16, 09:08 PM
That was a snooze fest. Hamilton botches the start. Mercedes does one less stop and it's a one-two with Rosberg all smiles (and getting Seven Nation Army going). The TV guys were oddly baffled by strategy. They thought somehow Hamilton needed a big gap to Ferrari or that Ferrari would be threatened by other 2 stop teams.

Fortunately they followed it up with MotoGP here. Oh my goodness...what a race!

WickerBill
09-04-16, 09:24 PM
Ricciardo's pass on Bottas - thing of beauty. Then Max just barged Perez off the track to underline the differences between the teammates.

EDwardo
09-04-16, 10:40 PM
Without the kid Vercrashen careening off of Ferraris it was a bit dull. Maybe if Bernie finishes fossilizing and someone younger than dirt takes the helm of F1 we might begin to see some positive changes.

opinionated ow
09-04-16, 10:46 PM
Without the kid Vercrashen careening off of Ferraris it was a bit dull. Maybe if Bernie finishes fossilizing and someone younger than dirt takes the helm of F1 we might begin to see some positive changes.

Sadly I doubt it. The owners will probably palm it off to some politically correct focus group and we'll end up with an even more expensive Formula E with diversity targets.

Insomniac
09-05-16, 12:50 PM
Ricciardo's pass on Bottas - thing of beauty. Then Max just barged Perez off the track to underline the differences between the teammates.

That was a good pass. Executed perfectly for the differences between the cars. He had to stay real close through parabolica. Max has shown a good ability to pass this season, but that was a "this is my track and I'm passing or we're both crashing" pass. He would've had him the next lap, but lacks the patience.

opinionated ow
09-06-16, 04:53 AM
That was a good pass. Executed perfectly for the differences between the cars. He had to stay real close through parabolica. Max has shown a good ability to pass this season, but that was a "this is my track and I'm passing or we're both crashing" pass. He would've had him the next lap, but lacks the patience.

It's basically Senna tactics. Put you in a position where it is up to you to decide whether to crash into him or not. If you back off he's got you mentally broken.

Insomniac
09-06-16, 09:42 AM
It's basically Senna tactics. Put you in a position where it is up to you to decide whether to crash into him or not. If you back off he's got you mentally broken.

I'd be OK with that, but the maddening part is F1 for years has decided they are gentleman and don't drive like that and they demonstrated it via reprimands, penalties, etc. Now it just seems like Max gets a pass every time. So all this time we've been missing out on more hard/aggressive driving?

Insomniac
09-19-16, 10:06 AM
Interesting race with the SC on the opening lap crash and not at all the rest of the way. Tire strategy/pit stop time made a difference at the end. Kimi copied Hamilton too late and Rosberg stayed out to hang on to the win. Mercedes made the right calls to gain a spot and keep the win. Vettel had a good drive to 5th (he was by himself there). Max had an uncharacteristically bad start and just never recovered from it. Kvyat raced him hard there for a bit. Too bad Ricciardo couldn't catch Rosberg, but I think if he did, he wasn't going to get by.

WickerBill
09-20-16, 08:21 AM
Loved Kvyat fighting Verstappen! And then Max complaining about being blocked on the radio... c'mon Max, at least Dany wasn't making 3 moves like you do.

Wanted Kimi to hold 3rd really badly.

Insomniac
09-21-16, 03:21 PM
Loved Kvyat fighting Verstappen! And then Max complaining about being blocked on the radio... c'mon Max, at least Dany wasn't making 3 moves like you do.

Wanted Kimi to hold 3rd really badly.

That was pretty funny. "Come on man!" Come on what?

Insomniac
09-22-16, 08:01 AM
Do other teams pay for damage to other cars when it's their fault? Curious if there's an additional dynamic in play when a driver decides they're passing or we're both crashing.

Insomniac
10-01-16, 10:59 AM
A lot of shout outs to the forum during qualifying. :D

Ferrari wasted a set of soft tires in Q1. They had 0.5s on the medium tires. They think it could be a good race between Mercedes and Red Bull. Probably wishful thinking.

opinionated ow
10-02-16, 10:42 AM
Lewis "Mechanical Sympathy #soblessed" Hamilton is cranky

Insomniac
10-02-16, 05:02 PM
I feel like I'm crazy for thinking Turn 1 was a racing incident. I don't think Nico knew (or could expect) that Vettel was coming up the inside of Max. Nico was securing his position in front of Max and bam. Vettel was a little fast, but he wasn't going to miss the turn.

I was surprised the hard tires didn't last nearly as long. They went 20 laps on the softs and it seemed like no one could push the hards to 30+ laps? I can't be;ieve everyone drinks out of Ricciardo's shoe. Webber is the smart one chucking that off the platform. Is that an Australian thing or Ricciardo thing?

Lewis is going to require some help to win the championship. I don't think he can do it straight up given his deficit and overall performance now.

opinionated ow
10-02-16, 08:47 PM
I feel like I'm crazy for thinking Turn 1 was a racing incident. I don't think Nico knew (or could expect) that Vettel was coming up the inside of Max. Nico was securing his position in front of Max and bam. Vettel was a little fast, but he wasn't going to miss the turn.

I was surprised the hard tires didn't last nearly as long. They went 20 laps on the softs and it seemed like no one could push the hards to 30+ laps? I can't be;ieve everyone drinks out of Ricciardo's shoe. Webber is the smart one chucking that off the platform. Is that an Australian thing or Ricciardo thing?

Lewis is going to require some help to win the championship. I don't think he can do it straight up given his deficit and overall performance now.

I'd sort of heard of the shoey as a bit of a joke thing done by bogans but I thought it was an urban myth. Then Ryal Harris did it in 2015 after winning one of the rounds of the V8 Utes Series (maybe at Hidden Valley Circuit in Darwin). Then Jack Miller did it when he won in MotoGP and now Ricciardo does it too. Now it seems to happen in all forms of motorsport

WickerBill
10-03-16, 07:04 AM
I'd say racing incident as well. No way Nico could have known they were going three wide; he left room for Max but not for Vettel.

Nico did a great job, and the fans gave driver of the day to Max. People really hate Nico, don't they? Hamilton charges from the back to the front with the help of a red flag and he's driver of the day - Nico does the same without as much as a safety car and Max beats him by gaining one position.

I think I found my post-Jenson driver.... Ricciardo... although rooting for a team with Marko in it will be difficult. (That being said, I've been rooting for a team with Ron Dennis on it, so...)

Insomniac
10-03-16, 11:07 AM
I'd say racing incident as well. No way Nico could have known they were going three wide; he left room for Max but not for Vettel.

Nico did a great job, and the fans gave driver of the day to Max. People really hate Nico, don't they? Hamilton charges from the back to the front with the help of a red flag and he's driver of the day - Nico does the same without as much as a safety car and Max beats him by gaining one position.

I think I found my post-Jenson driver.... Ricciardo... although rooting for a team with Marko in it will be difficult. (That being said, I've been rooting for a team with Ron Dennis on it, so...)

I was "surprised" Max was driver of the day, but it's just a motivated fan vote. Even the booth guys weren't salivating over his amazing drive. Nico clearly was. Max was 3rd best. He picked off Raikonnen sleeping at the wheel (I'm sure he would've gotten him under normal conditions as well). Ricciardo held him off to get the win so he was a better driver and Rosberg went from 2nd to 17th to 3rd all on track. There's just no question.

cameraman
10-03-16, 12:16 PM
Actually Bottas had the best drive getting an under performing Williams ahead of the Force Indias and McLarens.

Rosberg had a vastly faster car and the midpack drivers did not bother to put up more than a token fight because they didn't want to wreck their tires in a losing cause. They weren't quite acting like it was a blue flag but when Rosberg came sailing up behind them under DRS they just stayed out of the way. Not even Perez wasted much effort trying to keep Rosberg behind him, given the handling difference between the two it wasn't even close to a fight. Rosberg had one car to pass that was going to put up a fight and he took a huge risk hip-checking Kimi out of the way. It's just dumb luck that he didn't cut down a tire or break his suspension.

Insomniac
10-09-16, 08:08 PM
Nico is locking it down. I certainly am not a fan, but anyone who thinks he will be backing into the championship is crazy. He is earning it and now just has to finish in 2nd (with one 4th) the rest of the races and it's his title. Interesting strategy with coming in earlier was always better. Haas really paid for that being the case. Mostly a Sunday drive at the front, positions determined by the start and when you pitted (except Rosberg, he could've passed a Red Bull if he had to do it). It didn't look like Max made two moves to block, but it seems a popular complaint is he moves under braking. I hate unwritten rules, but is this a thing? It was nice of NBCSN to show us Alonso go off again since they apparently forgot they had shown and reacted to it before. Also, they should be putting more on the drivers, because their rule change on starts clearly has made a difference. These guys who want a show come up with gimmicks when there are technical solutions easily available to limit driver aids, maybe simplify the steering wheel/electronics and obviously the aero.

gjc2
10-10-16, 06:17 AM
just has to finish in 2nd (with one 4th) the rest of the races

Or third in each of the three remaining races (assuming Hamilton wins all three)

Insomniac
10-10-16, 09:52 AM
Or third in each of the three remaining races (assuming Hamilton wins all three)

I don't think I'd recommend skipping the 4th race. :)

WickerBill
10-10-16, 01:19 PM
So at what point does Hamilton start studying strategies to take out another car without damaging your own?


Verstappen's move was clean. A heck of a lot cleaner than his moves against Kimi a couple races ago. It's interesting - when Rosberg spun out trying to pass Max (Canada, maybe?), I kept thinking "Lewis would make that pass." Now, Lewis catches Max with 5 laps to go and can't get past either. Max is the Scott Pruett of F1 (at least in the "wide car" sense).

Insomniac
10-10-16, 02:53 PM
So at what point does Hamilton start studying strategies to take out another car without damaging your own?


Verstappen's move was clean. A heck of a lot cleaner than his moves against Kimi a couple races ago. It's interesting - when Rosberg spun out trying to pass Max (Canada, maybe?), I kept thinking "Lewis would make that pass." Now, Lewis catches Max with 5 laps to go and can't get past either. Max is the Scott Pruett of F1 (at least in the "wide car" sense).

Probably as soon as he gets a start that keeps him with Rosberg. :D

Max has skills no doubt, but I'd chalk some of Hamilton's inability to pass to the fact that he couldn't get close to the Red Bull except in the last chicane. Max only had to defend that one turn and he did it well. He's smart because he's also hard to set up (maybe that's also part of the complaints on his late moves).

gjc2
10-10-16, 06:31 PM
I don't think I'd recommend skipping the 4th race. :)

How could forget Abu Dhabi! Sorry

cameraman
10-11-16, 11:04 AM
Probably as soon as he gets a start that keeps him with Rosberg. :D

Max has skills no doubt, but I'd chalk some of Hamilton's inability to pass to the fact that he couldn't get close to the Red Bull except in the last chicane. Max only had to defend that one turn and he did it well. He's smart because he's also hard to set up (maybe that's also part of the complaints on his late moves).

Max's tires had not degraded enough by the end of the race for Hamilton to get past. Hamilton was fast enough to catch him but not fast enough to pass him without Max making a mistake. If the race had been longer then maybe but the race wasn't longer. He wasn't getting past him but Hamilton wasn't in the mood to not try it anyway.

Insomniac
10-24-16, 10:40 AM
Sainz and Alonso had great results. Hamilton did the best he could but Rosberg did what he needed to do as well. Max helped out Rosberg and hurt Ricciardo, Hamilton by deciding to drive around slowly and then park it in a place it couldn't be removed with a local yellow. Peer pressure and that show is amazing. The interview stunk from a race recap perspective, but it was entertaining. Ferrari blew a shot at closing the gap to Red Bull. Was I the only one who felt like they were blaming Vettel for Hulkenburg's accident? At least what I saw was Bottas comes in on his left, he quickly correct to move out to the right and then Vettel is turning on the outside. There wasn't room for three cars, but seemed more like a racing incident. And after that, Max put up a good fight on Vettel.

WickerBill
10-24-16, 02:45 PM
Peer pressure and that show is amazing.

What?


What did I miss?

Insomniac
10-24-16, 03:17 PM
What?


What did I miss?

I rambled a bit there, meant for that to be about the interview. Specifically, Gerard Butler drinking from the shoe. No one wants to do it, but they can't say no. (Webber got smart after the first time.)

cameraman
10-24-16, 05:07 PM
The celebrity interviews need to go away. If you don't eat, sleep & breathe F1 you have no place on that podium.

cameraman
10-30-16, 02:12 PM
So if you get SlingTV there's a Mexican channel at the "end of the dial" UniMas. Their coverage is on now and their race coverage is commercial free.

I watch both the NBC coverage & the Mexican coverage at the same time. Often muting both....

WickerBill
10-30-16, 07:56 PM
The end of that race was a lot of fun. Vettel is going to have an aneurysm on the track at some point. And honestly... most of the time he's just whining.

- I don't like Max. But until race control tells you to move over, don't move over. He did the right thing.
- Hamilton should have been penalized for cutting the corner and gaining a big advantage in turn 1.
- This "after the race" stewards stuff has to go away.

Tifosi24
10-30-16, 08:54 PM
The end of that race was a lot of fun. Vettel is going to have an aneurysm on the track at some point. And honestly... most of the time he's just whining.

- I don't like Max. But until race control tells you to move over, don't move over. He did the right thing.
- Hamilton should have been penalized for cutting the corner and gaining a big advantage in turn 1.
- This "after the race" stewards stuff has to go away.

Vettel was over the top, but it add some flare to the end of the race. Not sure why the wait until the after the end of the race to penalize Verstappen for a clear infraction. Riccardo could have easily taken Vettel out a lap later with the divebomb, so the stewards inability to get things done quickly could have significantly impacted the end of the race.

After what played out today, I would expect there to be modifications made to the T1 area to make cutting to T3 more difficult. Not sure how to do that, but I am sure it will involve more pavement and perhaps Monza type curbing closer to the outside of T3.

gerhard911
10-30-16, 08:59 PM
The end of that race was a lot of fun. Vettel is going to have an aneurysm on the track at some point. And honestly... most of the time he's just whining.

- I don't like Max. But until race control tells you to move over, don't move over. He did the right thing.
- Hamilton should have been penalized for cutting the corner and gaining a big advantage in turn 1.
- This "after the race" stewards stuff has to go away.

- Max is a huge *****. Not sure how to deal with him, but it needs to happen.
- Agreed, but the NBC crew all seemed to think Nico was the one who "gained a huge advantage". Never mentioned Louise. They all need to be looking for new jobs.
- Dunno aboot this one. It was pretty clear that Vercrashen deserved a penalty and I would hope that decision could be made before the end of the race. But, better late than never.

cameraman
10-30-16, 09:40 PM
- Hamilton should have been penalized for cutting the corner and gaining a big advantage in turn 1.

He might have been except for the immediate safety car which negated any track position he may have gained.
Rosberg wasn't trying to pass him at the time, Hamilton just locked up all on his own.

opinionated ow
10-30-16, 09:55 PM
You could solve the problem by rebuilding the circuit to how it was before Tilke destroyed it

WickerBill
10-31-16, 07:03 AM
I've thought about it some more, and here is my solution.

Penalties are:

- black flag / DQ
- stop - wait - go
- stop and go
- drive-through
- give illegally-gained position back


If the stewards are unwilling to dish out one of these penalties within 2 laps, then no penalty.

For instance, Sainz should have gotten a drive-through for running Fred into the grass. Nothing for Hamilton. Nothing for RIC/VET. Give position back for Max.

Choosing a time penalty after the race, when the stewards can calculate the result of the penalty and how it will impact the championship races, looks corrupt (but is likely just inept).

Insomniac
10-31-16, 09:31 AM
Vettel must be livid now. He got a 10s penalty and 2 penalty points for his tussle with Ricciardo. Now P5.

Stewards used his telemetry and pointed to the new emphasis adopted in Austin.

Mercedes cars both cut the corner to start. I disagree Hamilton lost his advantage with the SC. He went in too fast and blew the corner. His mistake cost him nothing with cars right behind him as he short cut the course. Verstappen hit Rosberg, so I think his slight off track was warranted. Verstappen on Vettel was him blowing the turn, he gained an advantage. Him holding up Vettel after that may or may not've put Ricciardo close to him.

I'd amend WB's suggestion to be race control does not tell a driver to give a position back. Instead if they assess advantage, it's a drive through if you didn't give up the advantage. Basically, you can avoid investigation by giving the position back. Most often, that is what happens. You should not be able to do what Max did with worst case scenario being you give it up a few laps later.

Overall, F1 has the slowest stewards, most absurd penalties and terrible race control.

WickerBill
10-31-16, 09:52 AM
well, I'll politely disagree. I think everyone, even F1 race control, can make an "advantage gained" determination extremely quickly and with far more accuracy than the driver in the car (unless absolutely blatant). Just tell them and give them 90 seconds to comply or be black flagged. There's no need for ambiguity and this would leave no room for gray areas.

Now, the NFL would probably suspend Vettel two games for what he said on the radio about Whiting - will F1 do anything?

Insomniac
10-31-16, 11:25 AM
well, I'll politely disagree. I think everyone, even F1 race control, can make an "advantage gained" determination extremely quickly and with far more accuracy than the driver in the car (unless absolutely blatant). Just tell them and give them 90 seconds to comply or be black flagged. There's no need for ambiguity and this would leave no room for gray areas.

Now, the NFL would probably suspend Vettel two games for what he said on the radio about Whiting - will F1 do anything?

You have until they determine it to give it back before you get a drive through. :) Max knew, the team knew.

I don't think the NFL would suspend him. Come across too think skinned. I think F1 may fine him, but shouldn't do anything.

TedN
11-13-16, 04:59 PM
Max Verstappen's drive in the wet at Brazilian GP .... WOW!

Ted
:thumbup:

WickerBill
11-13-16, 07:28 PM
Amazing what new tires will do. Which of course the US announcers conveniently forgot while slobbering over him.

Insomniac
11-14-16, 10:46 AM
Amazing what new tires will do. Which of course the US announcers conveniently forgot while slobbering over him.

They also forgot that driving over painted track isn't the best idea when wet as nearly every car that had a moment heading toward S/F did.

I agree that most of the cars he passed were on ~26 laps older wets, but he also passed Ricciardo who had 2 laps older ones and he finished 5 spots further up than him. He also passed at the beginning of the race on equal tires to Raikkonen and Rosberg. I don't know why Red Bull stopped him out of sequence when he was P2 though. For a team so offended by Wolff calling Jos about staying out of the way, they sure went ahead and got out of the way. Props to Hamilton too. He got to lead every lap and managed to not mess up at all being the first through it all. He also cleverly bunched people up close to Rosberg to give him something else to worry about. The show of respect for Massa was unreal.

On the topic of safety, three accidents ended up being fortunate (Ericsson, Massa and Raikonnen) in not being hit by another car in the limited visibility. They once again started the race behind the safety car. If it's not safe enough for a standing start, it's not safe enough to race IMO. Interlagos clearly has to do something to the part of the track where everyone was having issues. It has to drain better on the racing line. There was enough talk about the tires sucking that Pirelli really needs to step up or F1 needs to bring back tire competition so someone can make better tires.

WickerBill
11-14-16, 01:59 PM
He was good, don't get me wrong. He seemed to have the car set up better than RIC for sure, and the car itself is better than most teams' except when flat-out speed is required. The drive was fun to watch, but the out-and-out hero worship from the booth -- without mentioning any of the circumstances like the new tires -- is a massive turn-off. Would be interested to hear how the Sky boys treated it... hopefully with a touch more context.

Insomniac
11-14-16, 04:06 PM
http://autoweek.com/article/formula-one/niki-lauda-blasts-rain-delay-decisions-says-f1-over-regulated
"These were perfect conditions for a rain race," Lauda said. "This is an example that everything is over-regulated. OK, all the top drivers had their moments, perhaps with the exception of Hamilton. But this is normal in a rain race.

"I think mistakes were made today, so we need to get together with Charlie Whiting to do better in the future. Race drivers have to race, even in the most difficult conditions."

Interesting Lauda is saying this.


"These tires tend to aquaplane even if it's not raining hard," Raikkonen said. "Ten years ago, these conditions would have not been a problem for the tires."

Pirelli stinks and we're stuck with them until 2019.

jimclark
11-14-16, 11:22 PM
Amazing what new tires will do. Which of course the US announcers conveniently forgot while slobbering over him.
Agreed. :thumbup:
Every time they offered praise, I yelled at the TV "What about the new rains?!". :o


http://autoweek.com/article/formula-one/niki-lauda-blasts-rain-delay-decisions-says-f1-over-regulated
Interesting Lauda is saying this.
Why do you find that interesting? :confused:
In case you're going to point to Japan, 1976, remember that was a torrential downpour, this was not; and he had been near death, months earlier.... ;)

From a report on the race (my embolding last sentence): "James Hunt took the lead from the start with John Watson and Mario Andretti behind. In the second lap Watson slid down an escape road and Lauda drove into the pits to withdraw, as he believed the weather conditions made the track too dangerous. He later said "my life is worth more than a title".
Larry Perkins made a similar decision after one lap as did Carlos Pace and Emerson Fittipaldi later in the race."

chop456
11-15-16, 02:49 AM
He was good, don't get me wrong. He seemed to have the car set up better than RIC for sure, and the car itself is better than most teams' except when flat-out speed is required. The drive was fun to watch, but the out-and-out hero worship from the booth -- without mentioning any of the circumstances like the new tires -- is a massive turn-off. Would be interested to hear how the Sky boys treated it... hopefully with a touch more context.

I think another aspect of this wet performance is that he really doesn't care about rendering himself dead. Fine. The problem is when you don't care about doing it to other people.

I wonder if his dad shared any of his memories from this race. :gomer:

weFIjtjCHjk

cameraman
11-15-16, 04:40 AM
He was good, don't get me wrong. He seemed to have the car set up better than RIC for sure, and the car itself is better than most teams' except when flat-out speed is required. The drive was fun to watch, but the out-and-out hero worship from the booth -- without mentioning any of the circumstances like the new tires -- is a massive turn-off. Would be interested to hear how the Sky boys treated it... hopefully with a touch more context.

The Sky guys were over the moon, all of them. Saying it was one of the greatest drives ever. Even Niki Lauda said it was amazing after the race. They couldn't get over all the different and otherwise strange lines he took and made work. It was 100% OMG.

Insomniac
11-15-16, 11:31 AM
Why do you find that interesting? :confused:
In case you're going to point to Japan, 1976, remember that was a torrential downpour, this was not; and he had been near death, months earlier.... ;)

From a report on the race (my embolding last sentence): "James Hunt took the lead from the start with John Watson and Mario Andretti behind. In the second lap Watson slid down an escape road and Lauda drove into the pits to withdraw, as he believed the weather conditions made the track too dangerous. He later said "my life is worth more than a title".
Larry Perkins made a similar decision after one lap as did Carlos Pace and Emerson Fittipaldi later in the race."

He worked to get the drivers the safety protections they now have today. This isn't the first time he has said something in the vein of drivers are wusses. So I find it interesting that he thinks it has gone too far.

Insomniac
11-15-16, 11:34 AM
I think another aspect of this wet performance is that he really doesn't care about rendering himself dead. Fine. The problem is when you don't care about doing it to other people.

I haven't seen anywhere close to that level of recklessness from Max.

jimclark
11-15-16, 08:10 PM
He worked to get the drivers the safety protections they now have today. This isn't the first time he has said something in the vein of drivers are wusses. So I find it interesting that he thinks it has gone too far.

I know all about Niki. 'Was a fan of his back in the day.

'Just trying to follow your train of thought but I still don't get it. Everything in life has too much or too little, so Niki's thought on the weather Sunday ain't so unusual to me. Having raced I can understand where he was coming from....'wasn't there of course, but it looked raceable to me. :(

Anywho.....it's all good. ;)

WickerBill
11-27-16, 12:48 PM
Will Hamilton face any punishment for direct disobedience?


Nico performed better under pressure than I've ever seen him - last year's Nico would've likely cracked and been screaming on the radio.



Going to miss you, Jenson.