2017 F1 Race Weekend Thread (Potential Spoilers, Watch First!)

[Insomniac]

Hamilton dug deep for that one. Could be some weather involved tomorrow and Max is near the back. I hope there is some passing up front!

[WickerBill]

There was some passing, but not like years' past. I'm guessing haters of DRS must really like that it is marginalized this year. Those passes through turn 6 were great to watch.

Alonso is making it really hard to dislike him due to his always-hilarious radio and interviews.

[Insomniac]

It was a real good run for Max to start. Always a little luck involved there, but regardless, gaining that much position early is critical with this new spec and he did it. Picking them off one at a time probably doesn't get you to the podium now. Then he capped it off whining about a car that he wasn't even within DRS range with. At what point did the team just pretend they're doing something? :)

Too bad for the SC. Would've been interesting to see Vettel and Sainz out front. I'm not sure how Mercedes and Red Bull stacked their stops and Vettel still didn't end up in front of any of them. Were they creating big gaps? Was it just the convenience of them having to go through the pits?

So far we have quiet Vettel, which means he's pretty happy out there.

Their top priority has to be ensuring that the cars can follow each other closely. We saw the whole day the car trailing was constantly understeering after the front straight through the sweeping right turn. They fix that, and they can get rid of DRS.

[Hard Driver]

There was some passing, but not like years' past. I'm guessing haters of DRS must really like that it is marginalized this year. Those passes through turn 6 were great to watch.

Alonso is making it really hard to dislike him due to his always-hilarious radio and interviews.

Seemed like more on track passing than the Indycar race. I like the new cars.

Nice to see Ferrari, or anyone really, fighting Mercedes.

[Hard Driver]

It was a real good run for Max to start. Always a little luck involved there, but regardless, gaining that much position early is critical with this new spec and he did it. Picking them off one at a time probably doesn't get you to the podium now. Then he capped it off whining about a car that he wasn't even within DRS range with. At what point did the team just pretend they're doing something? :)

Too bad for the SC. Would've been interesting to see Vettel and Sainz out front. I'm not sure how Mercedes and Red Bull stacked their stops and Vettel still didn't end up in front of any of them. Were they creating big gaps? Was it just the convenience of them having to go through the pits?

So far we have quiet Vettel, which means he's pretty happy out there.

Their top priority has to be ensuring that the cars can follow each other closely. We saw the whole day the car trailing was constantly understeering after the front straight through the sweeping right turn. They fix that, and they can get rid of DRS.

Max was whining.. like you said, wasn't even in DRS zone and crying.

[chop456]

It's to the point where I'm hoping that Hamilton and Verstappen run into each other on lap 1 in every race.

[gerhard911]

It's to the point where I'm hoping that Hamilton and Verstappen run into each other on lap 1 in every race.

:thumbup::thumbup:

[Insomniac]

Heads up for US viewers. Qualifying is tape delayed (NBC Sports) and the race is on CNBC this weekend.

[Insomniac]

:thumbup: Bottas

Looks like this track isn't as affected by the rules changes. Max was faster throughout, until it really mattered and Ricciardo got the best of him.

I mentioned thos before, bit do the starts seem slower this year? Like everyone has wheel spin. (On a side note, why no super slow mos on some of the starts to see if there was wheel spin?)

[WickerBill]

I was unnaturally happy to see VER in the gravel. Brake failure maybe - also maybe they failed because he braked too late on brand new tires and rode the brakes until they gave out. Brake failure isn't usually associated with gigantic plumes of lock-up smoke, is it?

Bottas and Raikkonen do not seem up to the task of their teammates this year. We're back to the early 2000s era of #1 and #2 drivers for those teams, it seems. Makes me wonder if Mercedes isn't regretting not buying out Hulkenberg and at least having a German in the team.

These last two races have made me much more optimistic about the car packages for this year. The cars weren't faster in Bahrain than last year - at least not much - but the racing and the passing seems far more real due to the reduced impact of DRS.

Alonso quotes of the race: "I've never raced with so little power in my life", and after the pit wall talked to him about strategy, "Do whatever you want, man."

[SteveH]

Supposedly Mercedes had the wrong air pressure in BOT tires at the start.

https://mobile.twitter.com/C4F1/status/853651548198633473

[WickerBill]

Supposedly Mercedes had the wrong air pressure in BOT tires at the start.


That made sense to me, but after pit stops, with BOT on supersofts and HAM on softs, HAM caught him up - that part didn't make sense, unless he's just not up to the fight. Time will tell.

[Insomniac]

I was unnaturally happy to see VER in the gravel. Brake failure maybe - also maybe they failed because he braked too late on brand new tires and rode the brakes until they gave out. Brake failure isn't usually associated with gigantic plumes of lock-up smoke, is it?

They either had no replays or they showed them all during commercials. It was kind of like Bottas spinning last week. We didn't get to see video to try and figure it out. The front wheels seemed to definitely be locked and Max said afterwards you can't stop the car with just front brakes. Perhaps the rear braking system failed as opposed to the discs blowing up simultaneously (or perhaps they cascaded quickly after one failure on hard braking). Regardless, I think him being out likely robbed the viewers of an even better race.

[SteveH]

That made sense to me, but after pit stops, with BOT on supersofts and HAM on softs, HAM caught him up - that part didn't make sense, unless he's just not up to the fight. Time will tell.

He had an oversteer condition for the entire race.
http://www.crash.net/f1/news/244700/1/bottas-goes-from-pole-to-third-after-tyre-pressure-issue-team-orders.html

[Insomniac]

That made sense to me, but after pit stops, with BOT on supersofts and HAM on softs, HAM caught him up - that part didn't make sense, unless he's just not up to the fight. Time will tell.

Yeah, it can explain the start, but not the rest of the race. I agree with your assessment that he's clearly not Hamilton's equal. But, it's also his 3rd race in the car so he can improve still. He also may've gone for a qualifying setup after being pipped by Vettel the first 2 races. Even following the safety car, for a moment Bottas had a shot on Vettel and then Vettel was gone. He was struggling to keep up the pace.

I know it's part of their jobs to keep viewers interested, but did anyone think Hamilton was going to catch Vettel?

I think the 5s penalty was well deserved. It was interesting to hear Ricciardo's view of it that Hamilton could've slowed all he wanted on track and held him up, but in the pit lane it was a problem. I think in that regard, CART was better. Full course yellow, close pits, collect cars behind the pace car, open pits.

[opinionated ow]

Yeah, it can explain the start, but not the rest of the race. I agree with your assessment that he's clearly not Hamilton's equal. But, it's also his 3rd race in the car so he can improve still. He also may've gone for a qualifying setup after being pipped by Vettel the first 2 races. Even following the safety car, for a moment Bottas had a shot on Vettel and then Vettel was gone. He was struggling to keep up the pace.

I know it's part of their jobs to keep viewers interested, but did anyone think Hamilton was going to catch Vettel?

I think the 5s penalty was well deserved. It was interesting to hear Ricciardo's view of it that Hamilton could've slowed all he wanted on track and held him up, but in the pit lane it was a problem. I think in that regard, CART was better. Full course yellow, close pits, collect cars behind the pace car, open pits.
I'd prefer virtual safety car. Full course yellow in the CART days was thrown too readily (ok not NASCAR style) but it did make the racing often artificially close.

[Insomniac]

I'd prefer virtual safety car. Full course yellow in the CART days was thrown too readily (ok not NASCAR style) but it did make the racing often artificially close.

I meant specifically SC vs FCY. I'm not in favor of more SC, just eliminating the gaps and shenanigans to gain an advantage during the SC/pit stops. Take advantage of the SC to bunch up the field.

[SteveH]

http://i.imgur.com/DFfhYqi.png

[WickerBill]

I agree the 5 second penalty was deserved. Plus, his stunt didn't help him at all.

The pit closed/pit open thing worked in CART because each car had a pit box. It would be mayhem in F1.

[SteveH]

I agree the 5 second penalty was deserved. Plus, his stunt didn't help him at all.

The pit closed/pit open thing worked in CART because each car had a pit box. It would be mayhem in F1.

True, however I'd love to see F1 actually go to individual pit boxes.

[Insomniac]

I agree the 5 second penalty was deserved. Plus, his stunt didn't help him at all.

The pit closed/pit open thing worked in CART because each car had a pit box. It would be mayhem in F1.

It would be stacking, which they do now, and equitable for all teams. Throws in more strategy as well. But if there are safety concerns, at least mandate no backing up cars (drive through under green for the car doing it, and if it also advantaged a teammate, penalty for them too).

[cameraman]

Bottas' rear tires were overinflated because the machine they use on the track to adjust the pressure right before the start failed and they had no way to adjust it. During the race the pressurized air system that powers the guns was not running at the correct pressure which slowed all the Mercedes stops. The guns just didn't turn as fast as the were supposed to.

Verstappen's rear brakes failed.

[Insomniac]

Bottas' rear tires were overinflated because the machine they use on the track to adjust the pressure right before the start failed and they had no way to adjust it.

Besides using Hamilton's equipment?

[cameraman]

Besides using Hamilton's equipment?

Can't do that. FIA rules or some such thing. The Mercedes crew are not complete morons.

[Insomniac]

Can't do that. FIA rules or some such thing. The Mercedes crew are not complete morons.

Well that's just stupid. It's a tool. I was thinking more that they left it for the last moment and didn't have the time to do it. Which would still be on them and preventable.

[WickerBill]

It's interesting to me that Bottas was calling to the pits mentioning the back being a handful, and only then did they mention "yeah, we know about that, the pressures are wrong." Wouldn't you tell him right away so he can manage them more effectively?

[Insomniac]

Well, that was pretty much a processional today. Better grid walk from Buxton, but he just let an opportunity to talk to Horner and Bernie go by. Great start from Bottas. I don't think it was all Mercedes power to go from 3rd to 1st. I hope this kind of track is the rarity this season. Any traffic and it was good luck. Did Alonso's Honda actually die right there or was that a bit pf passive aggressiveness from him to park it there in the middle of the pit entry?

Buxton's Honda/Sauber story was something. So they had one extra year of development, went with a design they did not want to use, re-designed the whole thing the way they wanted to do it in the first place and all will be OK by 2018? :rofl:

No T-Wings and Shark Fins in 2018!

[WickerBill]

I watched the Sky telecast and admittedly only watched the race (I will go back and watch post-race this evening, probably). But Bottas had a Ferrari-like start. The onboard was something to behold - I'm not sure there was even a centimeter of wheelspin.

GOOD for him. I'm really happy to see him win, especially on a weekend where Hamilton couldn't get the car working. If that had been Hamilton in second place, Bottas would have had to undergo a lot more drama, methinks. Now he knows he can win, I think he'll win several more.


Kimi did a lot better this weekend, and I also hope he wins 2+ races this season. Go old guys!

[Insomniac]

I watched the Sky telecast and admittedly only watched the race (I will go back and watch post-race this evening, probably). But Bottas had a Ferrari-like start. The onboard was something to behold - I'm not sure there was even a centimeter of wheelspin.

GOOD for him. I'm really happy to see him win, especially on a weekend where Hamilton couldn't get the car working. If that had been Hamilton in second place, Bottas would have had to undergo a lot more drama, methinks. Now he knows he can win, I think he'll win several more.


Kimi did a lot better this weekend, and I also hope he wins 2+ races this season. Go old guys!

We got to see nearly all the replays of the start in side-by-side. And they didn't bother to re-show them when they came back. I do not like side-by-side. I'd rather miss stuff and have them re-show it after than they think that is good enough.

[WickerBill]

For as good as NBCSN does with the EPL, the F1 coverage is just dreadful. Perhaps the worst sports coverage on US TV. I'm committed to only watching Sky for the races this year (although I do grind my teeth and listen to Steve Matchett during qualifying, just because it's a lot simpler and they don't take commercial breaks during the Q sessions (anymore).

[cameraman]

I'm pretty much only watching the Sky coverage although I didn't get to see the race until last night given my glacial DSL service. Google Fiber is doing engineering surveys in the neighborhood, the fiber can't come fast enough.

Nice to see Bottas take the win.

And Lance Stroll managed to only spin instead of crashing out....

[indyfan31]

For as good as NBCSN does with the EPL, the F1 coverage is just dreadful. Perhaps the worst sports coverage on US TV. I'm committed to only watching Sky for the races this year (although I do grind my teeth and listen to Steve Matchett during qualifying, just because it's a lot simpler and they don't take commercial breaks during the Q sessions (anymore).

Ok, help me out here. What is so wonderful about Sky's coverage that makes NBCSN so dreadful?

To be honest, I've seen exactly 1 race on Sky when a friend recorded a race for me that I was otherwise going to miss; I don't remember being blown away by the broadcast. It was the same race with different commentators.

Does Sky use it's own broadcast equipment or do they also rely on F1's feed?

[WickerBill]

Ok, help me out here. What is so wonderful about Sky's coverage that makes NBCSN so dreadful?

To be honest, I've seen exactly 1 race on Sky when a friend recorded a race for me that I was otherwise going to miss; I don't remember being blown away by the broadcast. It was the same race with different commentators.

Does Sky use it's own broadcast equipment or do they also rely on F1's feed?


No commercials. Very few stupid mid-race "segments". No Steve freaking Matchett barfing glitter on "Marenello" constantly.

It isn't perfect, but you don't miss any of the action. It is the world feed.

[opinionated ow]

No commercials. Very few stupid mid-race "segments". No Steve freaking Matchett barfing glitter on "Marenello" constantly.

It isn't perfect, but you don't miss any of the action. It is the world feed.

There is only one feed produced by FOM and those who show it effectively purchase a license to distribute it as they please within guidelines. For years in Australia that meant the ITV/BBC version until the new deal. Now that Australia's contract replicates the UK one we only get 1 in 2 races or there abouts and we get the Channel 5 version with Karun Chandhok and David Coulthard. It's not so bad but not being able to watch every race in its entirety (I can handle not being live) is totally crap.

[cameraman]

In depth pre & post race coverage. Numerous people wandering the paddock getting interviews from all manner of people. No commercials from green to checkers for any session. There's no such thing as a perfect announce team and I could easily live without the whole responding to twitter segments. But it is mainly the commercials. I could tune out Diffey & Matchett easily enough. What I can't abide by is missing half the race to commercials and idiotic interviews/history pieces during the effing race.

The Russian GP coverage of the race was 4.5 hours long. About 10 minutes was commercials.

[Insomniac]

Are there time shifted options for viewing Sky coverage in the US besides a torrent?

[Insomniac]

The F1 2 seater seems like it's not the best. Will Buxton just stared into a headrest the whole lap. You get the feeling, but only see the speed off to the sides. IIRC, the ChampCar one had the 2nd passenger sitting higher behind the driver.

I really do not like VSC. The gaps are never maintained properly.

Well done by Mercedes on strategy. Turned a 2-3 into a 1-3 (until Bottas' engine let go). Good to see stewards letting them race, literally wheel to wheel. I do think Hamilton would've been less OK with Vettel if he didn't ultimately win. Vettel had to know he touched Hamilton, he took the paint off his tire. No shoe celebration from Ricciardo. Seems pretty resigned to being 5th/6th unless they get some help. It's interesting to see the shift in focus from Liberty. They're showing more reaction from the garages and fans to big moments. The little boy got plenty of attention, that was pretty cool how it ended for him. The lack of passing is hurting all through the field. This race felt long. Hamilton was constantly breathing heavy. There was no way Plan C would work for Vettel beyond getting him the fastest lap. I hope Kimi can get more into the mix here.

[WickerBill]

The answer is no to your Sky question.


Loved Sauber scoring points, Ricciardo getting a podium (even though it was via attrition), and a pass for the lead, on track!

Force India gets a $25,000 fine for not submitting to the IRL, I mean NASCAR, I mean Liberty rules on names and numbers on the car.


Anyone know why the VSC was deployed for Stoffel the Waffle but not for Bottas? It seemed really long and potentially could have been a local yellow for a couple laps... and of course it really changed the race.


Bottas holding up Vettel with a clearly ailing engine was interesting but completely, 100% fair. It was for position.

[cameraman]

Are there time shifted options for viewing Sky coverage in the US besides a torrent?

Nope and given that the torrent runs about 13-14 Gb I usually end up watching the race on Monday night as Google Fiber has not yet reached my neighborhood:flaming:

[cameraman]

Force India gets a $25,000 fine for not submitting to the IRL, I mean NASCAR, I mean Liberty rules on names and numbers on the car.

That's a strange one because the way the number is on the car you can see it easily from the grandstands, it is just hard to see if you are on the same level as the car. Last time I checked the fans were in the stands...

http://www.grandprix247.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/jm1712my423.jpg

http://media2.intoday.in/indiatoday/images/stories/forceindiafb-story_647_051517094120.jpg

:confused:

[WickerBill]

By looking at those pics, I wonder if the issue is that you can't really see "PER" and "OCO" anywhere.

[SteveH]

https://mobile.twitter.com/PHortonF1/status/863764552210677760

:gomer:

[Insomniac]

It was hard to read the Merc numbers on the nose IMO, especially Bottas'.

[WickerBill]

It was hard to read the Merc numbers on the nose IMO, especially Bottas'.

Agree, the color they chose for him against the silver background was not working in the Spanish sun...

[SteveH]

won't embed

https://youtu.be/8VsJQcetnog

[Insomniac]

As expected:


"It was a very close battle today and if it had gone in a different direction, it would have been different between us," he said. "You know how racing goes. If he had hit me in Turn 1 and had won the race, it would not have been 'great job, Sebastian'.

http://www.espn.co.uk/f1/story/_/id/19401682/heavier-contact-changed-vettel-relationship

[WickerBill]

won't embed

https://youtu.be/8VsJQcetnog


I'm surprised they're using decals and not paint. Ol Captain Liverspots abandoned decals and went to paint in the 1990s to reduce even that insanely small drag of the lip of the sticker... perhaps F1 cars just don't need that because they're not doing superspeedways?

[Insomniac]

I'm surprised they're using decals and not paint. Ol Captain Liverspots abandoned decals and went to paint in the 1990s to reduce even that insanely small drag of the lip of the sticker... perhaps F1 cars just don't need that because they're not doing superspeedways?

I was thinking similar, except that why did Lewis let them add the flag? He's cutting weight by ditching the drinks bottle, but let them add a few grams on the sticker. :D

Perhaps they can either make them much thinner, or maybe that was just the first step of the application method and they would later peel off the sticker leaving the paint?

[Insomniac]

:thumbup: to the Fins. Kimi on pole and I don't know where Bottas pulled that lap out from. Hamilton starting 13th in a car he had struggles with (does he start from pit lane instead?). Red Bulls 4-5. We'll have to see if any passing is on tap tomorrow.

[opinionated ow]

:thumbup: to the Fins. Kimi on pole and I don't know where Bottas pulled that lap out from. Hamilton starting 13th in a car he had struggles with (does he start from pit lane instead?). Red Bulls 4-5. We'll have to see if any passing is on tap tomorrow.

No qualifying coverage in Australia unless you're prepared to pay nearly $700/year. Was it a case of Lewis "mechanical sympathy" Hamilton again?

[Insomniac]

No qualifying coverage in Australia unless you're prepared to pay nearly $700/year. Was it a case of Lewis "mechanical sympathy" Hamilton again?

It seemed like a legitimate difficulty, maybe some traffic/timing. He lost the front and back on qualifying laps and had to keep it off the armco. He would've probably made it out of Q2, but Vandoorne clipped a barrier and ended up in the wall bringing out a yellow right in front of Hamilton with time up. Overall, it seemed like he was struggling for grip. I thought they were already a bit off from Red Bull and Ferrari until Bottas came up with that lap.

[WickerBill]

Lewis "I have no grip guys" Hamilton reared his head.

Ricciardo criticized Red Bull for a "silly stupid mistake" that cost him a chance at pole, he thinks.


And the typical Kimi quote, you've just won your first pole in nine years, how was it? "No complaints"

[Insomniac]

Was there a single legitimate on track pass beyond the start? People were excited for pit stops and traffic. The Ferraris hit traffic and Bottas made a 7s gap turn into a 2-3s gap in 3 laps. Traffic basically decided the top 5 (despite Hamilton's belief the team put Vettel into P1). They have to do something about the aero, this is terrible. :shakehead:

[WickerBill]

Well nobody ever passes anyone on-track at Monaco, except maybe turn 1 lap 1.

But I get your point. The wider cars don't help at this circuit either.

Canada should be great though.

[Insomniac]

Well nobody ever passes anyone on-track at Monaco, except maybe turn 1 lap 1.

But I get your point. The wider cars don't help at this circuit either.

Canada should be great though.

It's just the same old problem that you can't get close to the car in front. It has just been taken to a new level that even back markers are problematic, about 2% slower. Just an accordion out there. I'm not an aerodynamicist, but the FIA's sole focus should be on aero rules that ensure the least amount of turbulence coming off the cars. They have the harder tires now, make them more useful.

[Insomniac]

Thoughts on if Ferrari orchestrated the Vettel win? I say no. I think they brought him in to ensure a SC didn't give the race to Bottas. They wanted to keep on a similar strategy to stay up front. Between traffic and a couple clean laps for Vettel, he got just enough to come out in front. I think the mistake was Red Bull jumping in early thinking they could do the undercut and then it cascaded from there.

[WickerBill]

I think it was partially orchestrated..... they gave preference to Vettel by pitting him late. In the pre-race buildup, I think it was, they talked about the teams struggling to get tires up to temp, so undercuts were going to prove difficult. But they still pitted Kimi first.

That said, Vettel proved how much faster he was once Kimi was out of the way...

[cameraman]

Kimi was slow at the end of the first stint. Simple as that. If he had been able to maintain that ~3 second lead he had in the middle of the first stint then the exact same strategy would have had him coming out in the lead. Vettel was simply faster, quite a bit faster, in second half of the first stint.

[Insomniac]

Perhaps Kimi was most bothered that they did not call Vettel in right after him. Interesting radio though:


Lap 30 – From Kimi Raikkonen: The rear is going.
Lap 30 To Kimi Raikkonen: Understood. Do you want to stop or not Kimi? Need an answer now.
Lap 30 From Kimi Raikkonen: OK we stop. Is it good to stop now?
Lap 30 To Kimi Raikkonen: OK box this lap.

They were hurried it seems. Then later, they didn't know the position of the cars (at no time was Kimi behind Bottas).


Lap 33 – To Kimi Raikkonen: We are 9.5 behind Bottas and eight tenths a lap quicker.
Lap 33 – From Kimi Raikkonen: What do you mean, we are behind Bottas?
Lap 33 – To Kimi Raikkonen: Confirm, we are behind Bottas.
Lap 33 – From Kimi Raikkonen: How did we end up behind him?
Lap 33 – To Kimi Raikkonen: He was leading the race, Kimi.
Lap 33 – From Kimi Raikkonen: Ah OK I thought they were the other way around.
http://scuderiafans.com/kimi-raikkonen-2017-russian-grand-prix-team-radio-transcript/

Vettel radio (those lap numbers look wrong, he pitted on lap 38/39):


Lap 27 – To Sebastian Vettel: Keep your head down. Very important phase of the race. Push now. We need everything.
Lap 31 – To Sebastian Vettel: We are staying out. Pace is very good. Stay there.
Lap 33 – To Sebastian Vettel: And box, Sebastian, box for option. Mode box.
Lap 33 – To Sebastian Vettel: Stay out and back to mode push.
Lap 34 – To Sebastian Vettel: And box now Sebastian, confirm the box.
http://scuderiafans.com/sebastian-vettel-2017-russian-grand-prix-team-radio-transcript/

Max pit on 31/32, Bottas 32/33 and Kimi 33/34.

[Insomniac]

Wehrlein's head made contact with the barrier. :eek:


Wehrlein's helmet made contact with the barrier and the German said he will need to have a scan next week to make sure everything is fine following the back injury that led to him missing the first two races of the season.

http://www.eurosport.com/formula-1/monaco-grand-prix/2017/pascal-wehrlein-hits-out-at-jenson-button-for-silly-move_sto6186028/story.shtml

That's a bit scary, even with the air scoop it wasn't enough to fully protect him.

[opinionated ow]

Wehrlein's head made contact with the barrier. :eek:



http://www.eurosport.com/formula-1/monaco-grand-prix/2017/pascal-wehrlein-hits-out-at-jenson-button-for-silly-move_sto6186028/story.shtml

That's a bit scary, even with the air scoop it wasn't enough to fully protect him.

Clearly his roll hoop isn't high enough. Even in midgets in Australia there's a minimum head clearance from the roll cage.

[WickerBill]

That Kimi radio about being behind Bottas was from Russia, not Monaco.

http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2017/05/01/2017-russian-grand-prix-team-radio-highlights-race/

[Insomniac]

Well that's a poor Ferrari fan site!

[Insomniac]

:shakehead: Force India/Perez The team is spineless and the driver is in it for himself. I feel bad for Max after making that great start. I guess Ferrari thought Vettel's wing would hold up OK rather than bring him in to replace it under the SC. Sainz/Massa crash was pretty violent. WB was right that this track would allow for more passing. This week showed they really turn the power up in qualifying. Any indication they have that available for the race?

[WickerBill]

:shakehead: Force India/Perez The team is spineless and the driver is in it for himself. I feel bad for Max after making that great start. I guess Ferrari thought Vettel's wing would hold up OK rather than bring him in to replace it under the SC. Sainz/Massa crash was pretty violent. WB was right that this track would allow for more passing. This week showed they really turn the power up in qualifying. Any indication they have that available for the race?

It's interesting - I'm guessing this topic hadn't come up in the team before. Ocon was clearly faster and easily could have pressured Ricciardo much more than Perez. The Sky guys were insinuating that potentially Perez has authority based on his contract to never be asked to move aside. That's dumb.


Fun race for sure, even though the winner was never pressured.

[Insomniac]

It's interesting - I'm guessing this topic hadn't come up in the team before. Ocon was clearly faster and easily could have pressured Ricciardo much more than Perez. The Sky guys were insinuating that potentially Perez has authority based on his contract to never be asked to move aside. That's dumb.


Fun race for sure, even though the winner was never pressured.

I heard that, slightly different that Perez is bringing money to Force India so they didn't want to tell him to move over. It just doesn't make any sense beyond just being a terrible team player. Let Ocon have a shot at Ricciardo. If he fails, get the spot back. If he succeeds and then you also succeed, still get the spot back. They had 22 points. One gets by Ricciardo, +3. They both do +5. Just one does and you take current results, +1 (3rd and 6th) instead they end up with -4 (18 pts).

Not sure anyone had anything for Hamilton. Max was 3.5s off when he retired. Even without the wing damage, Vettel had Bottas and Max to get by for a shot.

[WickerBill]

Question for you: does Bottas eventually get by Max if Max stays in the race?



Was also amazed to see Stroll pass someone. More than once even!

[datachicane]

I dunno, normally I'd say yes, but Max was absolutely on fire.

[Insomniac]

I say yes. I was going to say not on track but I think Max would kill his tires trying to stay in front and the Mercedes power would then allow him to outbrake Max. Otherwise Max has to pit first and it's over then.

[opinionated ow]

This one was one of the half season that is only highlights on AUstralian tv. It was just way too hard to keep up with what was going on as it was just a chop job with no flow through and no voiceover to explain where the race was up to

[Insomniac]

This one was one of the half season that is only highlights on AUstralian tv. It was just way too hard to keep up with what was going on as it was just a chop job with no flow through and no voiceover to explain where the race was up to

That is terrible.

[opinionated ow]

That is terrible.

Not sure if you're being sarcastic or not...but if so my whinge probably deserves it :p

[chop456]

Nothing? :laugh:

[Insomniac]

It was a wild one. Max lost out on a good opportunity. Force India drivers, ouch. Bottas getting 2nd at the line was a good run. Feel bad for Stroll on that one, but he was just happy either way. Ricciardo just laughing how he was able to pull that off.

Now the big controversy. I didn't think Hamilton brake checked Vettel. When I saw Vettel hit him the second time, my initial thought was he wasn't paying attention while waving at Hamilton and hit him vs. an intentional act. Unfortunately you can't see his other hand on the wheel because his waving hand is blocking the camera. But regardless, it absolutely warranted punishment.

They should've black flagged him, period. Initially I was thinking black flag if it was deliberate, otherwise, the 10s stop and go seemed like a valid punishment. It put him back in 6th from 1st. But that was based on the fact that he didn't damage Hamilton's car. Which made me think more that regardless, whether deliberate or Vettel lost control/wasn't paying attention is all bad.

Hamilton was a bit over the top after the race talking about setting an example for kids and hoping it doesn't permeate the entire sport. And complaining Vettel finished ahead of him. They should not take the fact that Hamilton had a problem into account, so he did finish in front of Hamilton, but that's not because the penalty had no impact, but because Hamilton had a problem.

[opinionated ow]

It was a wild one. Max lost out on a good opportunity. Force India drivers, ouch. Bottas getting 2nd at the line was a good run. Feel bad for Stroll on that one, but he was just happy either way. Ricciardo just laughing how he was able to pull that off.

Now the big controversy. I didn't think Hamilton brake checked Vettel. When I saw Vettel hit him the second time, my initial thought was he wasn't paying attention while waving at Hamilton and hit him vs. an intentional act. Unfortunately you can't see his other hand on the wheel because his waving hand is blocking the camera. But regardless, it absolutely warranted punishment.

They should've black flagged him, period. Initially I was thinking black flag if it was deliberate, otherwise, the 10s stop and go seemed like a valid punishment. It put him back in 6th from 1st. But that was based on the fact that he didn't damage Hamilton's car. Which made me think more that regardless, whether deliberate or Vettel lost control/wasn't paying attention is all bad.

Hamilton was a bit over the top after the race talking about setting an example for kids and hoping it doesn't permeate the entire sport. And complaining Vettel finished ahead of him. They should not take the fact that Hamilton had a problem into account, so he did finish in front of Hamilton, but that's not because the penalty had no impact, but because Hamilton had a problem.

Bottas got the NASCAR lucky dog. It has no place in NASCAR...let alone in Formula bloody 1! David Coulthard was livid about the use of the safety car rather than the VSC. I think he called it the entertainment car or somesuch.

Hamilton didn't accelerate out of the corner at all. Given the HUUUUUUGE engine braking those things will have in 1st, it was effectively a brake check. I don't think Vettel's tantrum was in any way appropriate though. I think the Vettel penalty was appropriate. It's not Vettel's fault that Mercedes lost Hamilton the race by not putting the car together properly.

That race was like a black cat had walked over a broken mirror placed under a ladder and reflecting the moon.

[datachicane]

It was a wild one. Max lost out on a good opportunity. Force India drivers, ouch. Bottas getting 2nd at the line was a good run. Feel bad for Stroll on that one, but he was just happy either way. Ricciardo just laughing how he was able to pull that off.

Now the big controversy. I didn't think Hamilton brake checked Vettel. When I saw Vettel hit him the second time, my initial thought was he wasn't paying attention while waving at Hamilton and hit him vs. an intentional act. Unfortunately you can't see his other hand on the wheel because his waving hand is blocking the camera. But regardless, it absolutely warranted punishment.

They should've black flagged him, period. Initially I was thinking black flag if it was deliberate, otherwise, the 10s stop and go seemed like a valid punishment. It put him back in 6th from 1st. But that was based on the fact that he didn't damage Hamilton's car. Which made me think more that regardless, whether deliberate or Vettel lost control/wasn't paying attention is all bad.

Hamilton was a bit over the top after the race talking about setting an example for kids and hoping it doesn't permeate the entire sport. And complaining Vettel finished ahead of him. They should not take the fact that Hamilton had a problem into account, so he did finish in front of Hamilton, but that's not because the penalty had no impact, but because Hamilton had a problem.

Agreed on all points. Deliberate contact (or dumbass contact because you're too busy waving your fist to drive) should be a black flag, period. I was pleasantly surprised that even after applying the red car adjustment factor he was still left with a 10 sec stop & go rather than the traditional penalty for the non-red car driver.

[WickerBill]

Vettel was fortunate (some may say red car fortunate) to get a 10 second stop and go. Think about this: if his red mist swerve punctured Hamilton's tire, would the penalty have been more severe? He should have been black flagged, in my opinion.

Not sure what's going on with Max, but I do wonder if Ricciardo is easier on his engine system than Max is. Max seems to have 3/10ths a second of pace, but also far more breakdowns.


Of everything I saw today (just watched the race), Vettel's move was the dumbest, but Hulkenberg crashing himself out of a top 7 (!) was the most painful.

[opinionated ow]

I don't think a straight black flag is actually an option. I'd have to double check the FIA Sporting Code but I think the black flag can only be shown if you ignore a penalty.

[WickerBill]

60 second stop and go? He needed to be put a lap down.

[Insomniac]

Yeah, just whatever means he gets no points then. Issue him 30 stop and go penalties (I did wonder about the safety/danger of having the car stay there with no cooling given the brake cooling issues many dealt with from debris. But a ton of stop and go penalties, Ferrari may as well retire the car. Message sent.

[opinionated ow]

38.3 The stewards may impose any one of the penalties below on any driver involved in an Incident :
2017 F1 Sporting Regulations 32/68 30 April 2017
©2017 Fédération Internationale de l’Automobile
a) A five second time penalty. The driver must enter the pit lane, stop in his pit stop position for at least five seconds and then re-join the race. The relevant driver may however elect not to stop, provided he carries out no further pit stop before the end of the race. In such cases five seconds will be added to the elapsed race time of the driver concerned.
b) A ten second time penalty. The driver must enter the pit lane, stop in his pit stop position for at least ten seconds and then re-join the race. The relevant driver may however elect not to stop, provided he carries out no further pit stop before the end of the race. In such cases ten seconds will be added to the elapsed race time of the driver concerned.
In both of the above cases the driver concerned must carry out the penalty the next time he enters the pit lane.
c) A drive-through penalty. The driver must enter the pit lane and re-join the race without stopping.
d) A ten second stop-and-go time penalty. The driver must enter the pit lane, stop in his pit stop position for at least ten seconds and then re-join the race.
If any of the four penalties above are imposed upon a driver, and that driver is unable to serve the penalty due to retirement from the race, the stewards may impose a grid place penalty on the driver at his next Event.

If any of the four penalties above are imposed during the last three laps, or after the end of a race, Article 38.4(b) below will not apply and five seconds will be added to the elapsed race time of the driver concerned in the case of (a) above, 10 seconds in the case of (b), 20 seconds in the case of (c) and 30 seconds in the case of (d).

e) A time penalty.
f) A reprimand.
g) A drop of any number of grid positions at the driver’s next Event.
If any of the seven penalties above are imposed they shall not be subject to appeal.
h) Disqualification from the results.
i) Suspension from the driver’s next Event.

I think they made the right call.

[Insomniac]

I was annoyed the whole race. Bottas jumped the start and they said he didn't. Do they not even check their own video? His onboard clearly shows the car moving before the lights went out. Then they just make it worse with a graphic claiming a 0.2s reaction time and then Brundle during the interview using some other number. He didn't react to the lights going out since they were still on! It was really close to being a great guess, but it wasn't.

Kvyat? He may be getting close to a Grosjean style 1 race ban. They're lucky he starts so far back or he'd be taking out top cars. Max is having a tough season, but Ricciardo keeps getting it done. It's interesting with Vettel leading thre driver's and Mercedes leading the constructor's. Ferrari and Hamilton aren't happy right now.

[cameraman]

The Sky coverage was clearer. His start was 0.204 seconds after the lights. He didn't jump it, it was simply perfect. They mentioned that the fastest reaction times measured at the Olympics are in the 0.120 second range.

[WickerBill]

Agree that he didn't jump, based on the footage I saw. I'm not sure I saw what you're referring to with the Bottas in-car that also included the lights.


Sky didn't mention it, but Ricciardo was jubilant with third - much more than with first last week. I found that interesting.

[indyfan31]

The NBC sports broadcast showed a side-by-side of his on-board view next to a closeup of the lights, his wheel was rolling before the lights went out. I'm assuming the two video sequences were properly synced.

[Insomniac]

The Sky coverage was clearer. His start was 0.204 seconds after the lights. He didn't jump it, it was simply perfect. They mentioned that the fastest reaction times measured at the Olympics are in the 0.120 second range.

The Sky coverage was BS if you're referring to: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cXdAPDKFR4I

They showed only 2 frames. On my DVR, I could see 4 frames between his wheel moving and the lights going out. That reaction time number is BS because he reacted and his car was moving before the lights went off. It was more like negative 0.204s.


Agree that he didn't jump, based on the footage I saw. I'm not sure I saw what you're referring to with the Bottas in-car that also included the lights.


Sky didn't mention it, but Ricciardo was jubilant with third - much more than with first last week. I found that interesting.

1m 30s mark


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AZNy03o6ncs

FIA admits the same:


“In today’s instance, Valtteri Bottas did not exceed this (very small) limit before the start was given.
Simply put: he made an exceptionally accurate and fortuitous judgement call, anticipating the moment the lights went out with great precision. Any movement prior to the moment the lights went out was within the tolerances allowed.

Not sure how they could justify applying any type of reaction time because he reacted to nothing.

So accordingto their rules, he didn't jump. They need to fix their rules because that was not a clutch adjustment. They have clear video evidence of the car moving forward before the lights went out. OK, use the system when there isn't video, but you ask anyone, did that car start before the lights went out and they all say yes.

He guessed and he was wrong. It was damn close, but it was a jump start. The rules I guess say it wasn't, but that tolerance wasn't for this situation.

[cameraman]

The Sky coverage was BS if you're referring to: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cXdAPDKFR4I

They showed only 2 frames. On my DVR, I could see 4 frames between his wheel moving and the lights going out. That reaction time number is BS because he reacted and his car was moving before the lights went off. It was more like negative 0.204s.



1m 30s mark


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AZNy03o6ncs

FIA admits the same:



Not sure how they could justify applying any type of reaction time because he reacted to nothing.

So accordingto their rules, he didn't jump. They need to fix their rules because that was not a clutch adjustment. They have clear video evidence of the car moving forward before the lights went out. OK, use the system when there isn't video, but you ask anyone, did that car start before the lights went out and they all say yes.

He guessed and he was wrong. It was damn close, but it was a jump start. The rules I guess say it wasn't, but that tolerance wasn't for this situation.

The ruling was it was not a jump start. They have far more accurate transponders than your TV is and Bottas was fully within the regulations. PERIOD.

[Insomniac]

The ruling was it was not a jump start. They have far more accurate transponders than your TV is and Bottas was fully within the regulations. PERIOD.

Not disagreeing that the start was within the regulations. So as inaccurate as my TV is, it clearly shows the car moving before the lights went out. The FIA agrees he was moving, but within tolerances. Ignoring any rules, that was visually a jump start and it bothers me that the rules indicate it isn't.

Anyone saying he was moving after the lights went out is wrong. Just admit he was moving before it went out, he did not react to the lights going out, he guessed the timing, but the movement he had was allowed in that window. It was stupid and he got lucky.

[Insomniac]

Pretty boring race this weekend. Only got interesting with Vettel's issue holding up the field. A lot of respect to Kimi for putting up with being a second class citizen. They pulled him in early and then made him sit behind and protect Vettel the majority of the race. Also good to see sportsmanship isn't completely dead with Hamilton giving the position back. It's kinds sad when you have the media being so complimentary about taking an honorable action because they just assume/expect people don't do that anymore. I thought Max was just overly aggressive on the start and that's what caused the inevitable collision. Sucks for Ricciardo that he was the on who got tagged. McLaren had a good weekend finally.

On a side note, Hamilton will pass Schumacher in career poles soon, but I think that points out a significant distinction between the two drivers. As they stand now:

Michael Schumacher: 68 poles, 91 wins
Lewis Hamilton: 67 poles, 57 wins

Schumacher took care of business on Sundays when it mattered the most.

The same continues this season. Hamilton 6 poles, 4 wins. Vettel 2 poles, 4 wins.

[opinionated ow]

Pretty boring race this weekend. Only got interesting with Vettel's issue holding up the field. A lot of respect to Kimi for putting up with being a second class citizen. They pulled him in early and then made him sit behind and protect Vettel the majority of the race. Also good to see sportsmanship isn't completely dead with Hamilton giving the position back. It's kinds sad when you have the media being so complimentary about taking an honorable action because they just assume/expect people don't do that anymore. I thought Max was just overly aggressive on the start and that's what caused the inevitable collision. Sucks for Ricciardo that he was the on who got tagged. McLaren had a good weekend finally.

On a side note, Hamilton will pass Schumacher in career poles soon, but I think that points out a significant distinction between the two drivers. As they stand now:

Michael Schumacher: 68 poles, 91 wins
Lewis Hamilton: 67 poles, 57 wins

Schumacher took care of business on Sundays when it mattered the most.

The same continues this season. Hamilton 6 poles, 4 wins. Vettel 2 poles, 4 wins.

And the seasons are longer which means more poles to be had

[WickerBill]

The same continues this season. Hamilton 6 poles, 4 wins. Vettel 2 poles, 4 wins.


Raikkonen should have had two of those four Vettel wins... and let's not forget how many Schumacher wins should have been Barrichello wins. It's a Ferrari thing, I don't understand.


Verstappen had dirty tires and no grip. Should he have known that? Yeah. But he also gets so much adoration for "finding grip" that he probably thought he could find it. He had no intention of hitting Daniel. Daniel should have cooled his jets a bit before being interviewed.

On the other hand, Magnussen literally drives Hulkenberg off the road and gets half the penalty Verstappen did. I don't understand it - and I'm a Ricciardo fan.

[Rus'L]

Schumacher took care of business on Sundays when it mattered the most.

Schumacher always had "patsies" as a teammate...

[Insomniac]

In all seriousness, how many wins did the team hand him? He probably had weaker teammates courtesy of Ferrari, but he still won. It wasn't a 1-2 like Mercedes the last 3 seasons. He had more competition than his teammate. And my point was the discrepancy in poles vs wins. Starting #1 implies you drove the fastest to qualify there and affords you the best starting position. You can only go backwards. So unless Schumacher started second over 30 times and his team mate just let him by, I think my point is valid.

[Rus'L]

In all seriousness, how many wins did the team hand him? He probably had weaker teammates courtesy of Ferrari, but he still won. It wasn't a 1-2 like Mercedes the last 3 seasons. He had more competition than his teammate. And my point was the discrepancy in poles vs wins. Starting #1 implies you drove the fastest to qualify there and affords you the best starting position. You can only go backwards. So unless Schumacher started second over 30 times and his team mate just let him by, I think my point is valid.

Your point is semi-valid. I'll give you that. :-)

For a number of years, Ferrari had a huge advantage because they and Bridgestone designed their chassis and tires to perfectly match each other. The other Bridgestone teams had to deal with Ferrari designed tires, whether they liked it or not. And all the other teams had to deal with "generic" designed Michelins.

Maybe Ferrari didn't have the domination that Mercedes had the past there years, but it was close. The deciding factor was that Schumacher never had a teammate who could beat him, which Hamilton did (Alonso for one year, arguably Button, and then Rosberg for three -- put a Barrichello or a Massa alongside Hamilton all those years, and how many more wins would Hamilton have gotten). And there were plenty of times they held back Schumacher's teammate, even if it wasn't visible to the public.

I will always believe Schumacher's stats are inflated for that very reason. That doesn't mean he didn't achieve great things. Just that his stats are inflated.

[WickerBill]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/motorsport/formulaone/3027644/Formula-One-Ferrari-team-mate-hands-Schumacher-controversial-victory.html

It happened more than you think.


http://autoweek.com/article/formula-one/rubens-barrichello-michael-schumacher-benefitted-team-orders-win-formula-one

[Insomniac]

Ferrari only finished 1-2 in the WDC once in their championship run with Schumacher, in 2004. If you reversed the finishing order where Schumacher finished directly in front of Barichello, that is the only season where Barichello finishes as the champion. Mind you, that is a season in which Schumacher finished:

Wins: 13
2nd: 2
7th: 1
12th: 1
DNF: 1

Barichello:
Wins: 2
2nd: 7
3rd: 5
4th: 1
6th: 1
12th: 1
DNF: 1

They finished together 9 times, with Schumacher in from 8 of them. I think that's the only season close to Mercedes' recent run. I don't dispute Ferrari was Schumacher during his time there. I'll dive deeper into his victories when not on pole to see who he had to beat to win.

[Insomniac]

It's a pretty poor state of affairs when either the difference in tire compounds between ultra softs and softs is meaningless or the aerodynamic turbulence is so bad that superior tires don't matter.

Force India is going to get worse before they get better. The McLaren-Honda this weekend has been odd. Confused by going all out in a turn, yikes.

Tough break for Max (again). Would Mercedes and Red Bull agree to let Max move in exchange for 2018 power units? Who says no to that deal? I feel like everyone wins (including fans) so it won't happen.

[stroker]

Can't somebody, PLEASE, tell the announcers to SHUT THE F**K UP for the first sixty seconds of the race?? I mean really, they're screaming incoherently at a rate the viewers couldn't possibly assign any significance to... Jeebus!

[opinionated ow]

It's a pretty poor state of affairs when either the difference in tire compounds between ultra softs and softs is meaningless or the aerodynamic turbulence is so bad that superior tires don't matter.

Force India is going to get worse before they get better. The McLaren-Honda this weekend has been odd. Confused by going all out in a turn, yikes.

Tough break for Max (again). Would Mercedes and Red Bull agree to let Max move in exchange for 2018 power units? Who says no to that deal? I feel like everyone wins (including fans) so it won't happen.

I was surprised how effective the normal non-DRS slipstream was. The Merc had just that much more top end than the Ferrari.

[Insomniac]

I was surprised how effective the normal non-DRS slipstream was. The Merc had just that much more top end than the Ferrari.

Seemed like they were more evenly matched to me. Vettel probably only had a few MPH when he caught Lewis and that wasn't enough to pull out and pass. Sounds like Hamilton played it perfectly by letting Vettel catch him much earlier. I know I thought Vettel had him when he was so close coming onto the S/F straight. Seemed like getting within that 1s was really hard up front for DRS. I'm not a fan of DRS, but perhaps they need to reconsider the interval on a per track basis given the current aerodynamic environment. (I'm not saying it needs to become the Hanford device by any means, but something more than mostly useless would help.)