Flooring

[WickerBill]

I'm replacing 2800sq ft of carpet/laminate in my 2002-era house. I've already updated the look of the house - all of the dark shiny 2000s wood trim is now brightened up, the textured ceilings have all been scraped and repainted, the walls are all alabaster instead of a hodgepodge of greens and reds and tans. The last step is the floors.

The new floor will go everywhere but the master bath, which is going to have to get remodeled with some future bonus check and will likely have tile. I've looked at hardwood, engineered hardwood, and high-end LVP. The LVP advantages are pretty numerous, including being remarkably scratch-resistant, completely waterproof (this'll be in two bathrooms and a kitchen, and I also have a pool, so lots of dripping). But, of course, real wood is real wood.

Anyone use LVP and regret it? Anyone go hardwood and wish they hadn't? All input welcome. :)

[SteveH]

My son's house was built in the past 5 years. They used LVP throughout rather than wood. Since we are building our retirement house, I asked my daughter in law how the LVP performed. She said they selected LVP over wood primarily due to its price (cheaper). But she wishes they had wood as some of the coating on the LVP is beginning to peel. I doubt if it was an inferior grade of LVP as their home builder is owned by her parents. The same builder who is building ours. We will be wood throughout except for the three seasons room which will be LVP.

[WickerBill]

Thanks Steve. Do you know if you'll do traditional hardwood or engineered?

[SteveH]

We are traditional hardwood. As I understand it, it has 8 coats of polyurethane. Maybe they all do, no idea.

We just finished material selection last week. So, this is all rather recent. I could not tell the difference between LVP and wood. None at all. It is amazing. We went with LVP in the three-season room as that room is more likely to become wet from foot traffic from the outside. And LVP is more resistant to moisture. The bathrooms will be tile. So, I can understand the attraction to LVP in your case. If you are aware of the LVP manufacturer, look for user reviews. Hopefully ones that have been in place for years.

[nrc]

Most of our main level are original wood floors from the '70s. They have a very... lived in look. Which suits us fine right now with four dogs. Scratching isn't a concern in current state but it will definitely be a consideration when we start looking to get them refinished.

We redid our master suite a few years ago. For the bathroom we used Armstrong Alterna "LVT". What makes a vinyl floor covering "luxury" anyway?

https://www.armstrongflooring.com/residential/en-us/engineered-tile/alterna-engineered-tile.html

We like it. The tile old tile was not well glazed so between that and the wide grout lines it was dirt magnet. The vinyl tile seems pretty impervious to dirt and doesn't get cold like the old tile. The only negative has been that we had the seams grouted for a more tile-like look and you can see some hairline cracks in the grout if you look close. This is a glue-down product but it's still not as rigid as traditional tile.

For the bedroom we used Smartcore Naturals flooring from Lowes.

https://www.lowes.com/pd/SMARTCORE-Naturals-5-in-Hot-Springs-Hickory-Engineered-Hardwood-Flooring-20-01-sq-ft/1000768918

They call it waterproof engineered hardwood but what it really is is LVP with a layer of actual wood under the wear layers. I love it. It looks great and it has been impervious to the dog's nails and the little surprises that older dogs sometimes leave in the middle of the night.

I did knock a sliver of veneer off a corner when I caught it with a sock but you just fill it with appropriate colored wood putty and it's undetectable.

One downside for some people is that it's a floating floor. It snaps together and we put it over the recommended 1.5mm underlayment. So while it's solid, it's never going to feel as hard as a traditional wood floor. But it's quieter than most wood floors.

One of the best things I did before we had the floor put in was go through and silence every squeak I could find with these Squeeeek-No-More screws. I hate a squeaky floor and between the flooring, the underlayment, and about 50 Sqeek-no-more screws it's now the quietest floor in the house besides the concrete in the basement. :D

https://www.lowes.com/pd/Squeeeeek-No-More-1-sq-ft-Coverage-Self-Drilling-Concealed-Screw-Hidden-Fasteners-50-Count/4441839

[datachicane]

For a time back in the Pleistocene, I worked in the specialty lumber business, mostly wholesale to builders, some retail. Wood flooring products were a big part of my business, both engineered and traditional strip, as well as finishing systems. This was 25+ years ago, so take my advice for what it's worth.

Each product has pros and cons that need to be weighed.

Traditional strip hardwood flooring:

Gold standard, biggest impact on resale value. Regardless of what's hot on Pinterest this week, don't ever purchase lower grades unless it's going in an actual barn.
Installation and finishing are expensive, but the lower price of the raw materials usually means that the total project cost is on par with engineered wood flooring.
Installation has pitfalls lurking for do-it-yourselfers and requires specialized tools. Doable, but be handy and pay attention.
Finishing system is important:

Solvent-carrier urethanes (Glitsa, Gym-Seal, etc.) are extremely tough, provide a traditional amber appearance, but are toxic and relatively difficult to apply and recoat, typically requiring the property not be occupied for 2-3 days due to fumes released during cure. Approaches durability of best engineered floor finishes.
Water-carrier urethanes (numerous). Moderate to low durability, does not alter the color of underlying wood (clear rather than amber), so a traditional appearance may require stain depending on customer's preference. Non-toxic, easy application, friendly for do-it-yourselfers. Significant advantage- recoating to cover minor wear, scratches, etc., is trivially quick and simple and can easily be done in an afternoon, as long as the damage hasn't yet penetrated into the cell structure of the wood. Fair tradeoff for decreased durability in most applications IMO.
Wax. Traditional but obsolete. If you're tempted, do water-carrier urethane instead.


Best long-term solution. While potentially not as durable as a quality engineered floor (due to the relatively greater hardness of factory-applied finishes), traditional strip flooring can withstand heavy sanding and refinishing, even more than once. Even if not maintained properly, a well-worn traditional strip floor has a better appearance than a well-worn or damaged engineered floor.


Engineered wood flooring:

Large variation in quality and appearance. Higher-end products can be indistinguishable from traditional strip, lower end plank-style products can be spotted from the air and will expose your cheapskate %#@! to ridicule.
Dimensionally stable and strong.
Quite expensive, but can be competitive with traditional strip when installation/finishing costs are included. Homeowner installations are common.
The best engineered floors have extremely durable surface finishes. Some will have water-carrier finishes, which while less durable, can be easily recoated as described above.
V-grooves and eased edges common features, as they hide minor inconsistencies in height and alignment that would normally be corrected on a traditional strip floor by sanding. These grooves and edges will collect and retain a surprising amount of abrasive crap, so adjust your housekeeping accordingly.
Except for 3/4" strip engineered flooring (which is not common), the thickness of the top veneer precludes sanding, so these floors are disposable. If the floor in question has a water-carrier finish, plan on religiously recoating to avoid damage penetrating through to the cell structure of the wood.


LVP- I basically think of this as carpet or sheet vinyl. If you like the look of it and it has a decent warranty, that's about where the math ends. They're tough but can't be repaired, and there's nothing homey or rustic about a scratched LVP floor. Wood-ish appearance, but your bare feet won't buy it. The only logical choice if you want wood in a bath or kitchen, but don't put wood in your bath or kitchen.

I will confess to my personal biases- I can't stand LVP. From a design-geek standpoint, I can't get around the whole honesty-of-materials thing. I have a hard time with any material pretending to be some other material entirely, with the possible exception of aerosol cheese when I've been drinking. YMMV, but the lack of depth to the finish is a dead giveaway for LVP, and my OCD means that I'll be picking out and mentally cataloging every iteration of that repeated grain pattern as it marches through the house. It's a quick-and-dirty solution, and while it may be appropriate for flips I'd never consider installing it in my own home. If you want wood, do wood. If you want an attractive, durable product other than wood, check out the excellent offerings from Forbo/Marmoleum.

[WickerBill]

The LVP product under consideration is Flooret: https://www.flooret.com/nakan-craftsman/
Crazy high 40mil wear layer, really great reviews from owners and installers, yadda yadda

In the red corner, a combo of hardwood in most of the house, but tile in the kitchen/hall bath/master bath/half bath/laundry room... so the wood itself would look better than the LVP, but lots of transitions which bugs me. I have a pet peeve about seeing multiple floors from one location, but I also don't want to have no transitions but not like my flooring material.

[nrc]

I'm imagining WB saying "transitions" the way Seinfeld says "Newman."

But I hate having wood in the kitchen. I imagine future home will start that way and we'll cover it with LVP later. With... transitions.

I agree with what dc said about it. It's like carpet. You put it down and when you're tired of it you take it up and throw it away.

This is what we'd like to have in future home after we hit the lottery. Doesn't look like the 401k is going to cover $10/sqft at this rate. :eek:

https://www.factoryflooringliquidators.com/products/barnwood-living-lincoln-3-1-4-in-skmb39l21x

[G.]

We did the stranded bamboo from the front door to the other side of the house and through the kitchen. I like it a lot. It transitions to the carpet well, and the LVP in the laundry room. (Well, the cheap imitation LVP that is really just regular thin linoleum strips.) ;)

The salescritter kept talking about the difference between engineered flooring (bad) vs. all natural bamboo threads (that happen to be dipped into epoxy and compressed into planks). :shakehead: He really made engineered sound horrible, and full of chemicals, but never mentioned that stranded bamboo is only different because the whole thickness of the boards are bamboo strands and epoxy. With that in mind, there is (supposedly) the opportunity to resurface once, as long as there aren't gouges in it that tear the threads. But, unless you paint it like a savage, you can't change the color. (Don't ever paint it.)

Ours is tongue and groove and pretty thick. Half inch + maybe? Installer had to buy new nail guns to put it in. His hardwood guns would just bend the nails when they hit the "all natural" space-age polymer.

I don't remember the cost difference vs. other flooring, but it was comparable. The install was slightly subpar, and there were a few spots that I wanted to tack down. They were "stubs" that were out of view, but since they were cut-to-fit, they had neither a tongue nor groove, so installers couldn't/wouldn't nail it there. The stuff is HARD. I drilled larger than the finishing nail, and had a hard time sinking the nail head.

Our dog happens to be nuts, and also display autistic tendencies. She won't walk on it unless it's a short distance from rug-to-rug. At the biggest crossing she runs awkwardly from carpet to rug. It used to be funny, but since her DogCL tore, it takes on a sadder tone. Damn squirrels!

Anyway, wife and I love it, and her 2nd choice was those long ceramic wood-looking planks that were cool for a few minutes. I'm not a fan, but different strokes...

We saved a LOT of money by ripping out the foyer ceramic tile, carpet strip and underlayment including right up to the toekick of the cabinets (I have an underlayment toekick saw. I have no idea why I own this. If anyone has any theories as to why I woud purchase this years ago, I'd be glad to hear them!). Let me state for the record, that if I did it over again, I would have had the installers do this work.

How hard could it be?? Break some tiles a bit, get a crowbar under the underlayment, and remove 800,000 brad nails!

This is why I am still alive today:

1140

[SteveH]

Was at my son’s house yesterday. Their flooring is not LVP but engineered wood. Under the fridge where water has dripped on the floor from the water dispenser the coating is coming off. The might be able to sand it down and refinish it once. Maybe twice. They are very disappointed with its performance.

[datachicane]

This is likely my own cynicism creeping in, but I suspect a significant factor in the popularity of both engineered wood flooring and LVP vs. traditional 3/4" strip hardwood is that engineered floors and LVP are marketed through big box home improvement outlets and their ilk, while traditional strip generally has to be sought out via specialists. There's a bunch of variables with installation and finishing costs, certainly, but back in the day the cost per square foot installed and ready to go for a nice, basic Select red oak trad strip floor was less than the Bruce engineered strip that nrc posted above, and was at least competitive with most of the better (as in acceptable) quality engineered choices. As far as economics go, make sure you base your decisions on actual numbers and not assumptions.

I learned that the hard way in a manner that has given my wife endless entertainment. She bought me a new garage door opener quite a few years ago, and it sat in the box for nearly a decade. I was certain that the spring mechanism on the door of our 90 year old garage was broken, and our then tight budget meant there was no way I could cough up a couple grand to get it all sorted out. I jury-rigged a Rube Goldberg nightmare of sash weights and pulleys to operate the thing, and cursed it every morning as I pulled the car out of the garage. Feeling somewhat more flush quite a few years later, I broke down and called out a garage door guy. He looked at it, said there were some bolts missing, and had it fixed AND installed the opener for just over $100. Yeah. As a data guy, I should know better than to make decisions based on an absence of data.

[nrc]

This is likely my own cynicism creeping in, but I suspect a significant factor in the popularity of both engineered wood flooring and LVP vs. traditional 3/4" strip hardwood is that engineered floors and LVP are marketed through big box home improvement outlets and their ilk, while traditional strip generally has to be sought out via specialists. There's a bunch of variables with installation and finishing costs, certainly, but back in the day the cost per square foot installed and ready to go for a nice, basic Select red oak trad strip floor was less than the Bruce engineered strip that nrc posted above, and was at least competitive with most of the better (as in acceptable) quality engineered choices. As far as economics go, make sure you base your decisions on actual numbers and not assumptions.

I think the two big attractions of LVP and engineered wood are that they're waterproof, easy to install, and very forgiving of conditions. THREE big attractions. And disposability. AMONGST the attractions of LVP and engineered wood ARE...

The Bruce Barnwood Living link above is solid wood, BTW. The SmartCore Naturals link is engineered. SmartCore is from US Floors.

I'll be interested to see how much it will cost to refinish our wood floors. We've got about 800 square feet and some of it is well worn with rustic chips and divots.