View Full Version : Robert Clarke can kiss my butt
My comment about MCI in the "Most Popular Driver" voting thread got me thinking about the long term affects of sponsorships and how a well handled sponsorship can have a lasting positive affect for a company.
I still have positive feelings about brands like MCI, Shell, Miller, KOOL, Pioneer and Motorola. Even the ones who have gone to the other side have done so with respect for CART and what their sponsorship there did for their brand.
Then there's Honda. This time last year Honda was doing everything in their power to kill CART. A lot of people justified their vindictive behavior saying that CART had it coming. They double crossed Honda. But how has Honda hurt the people who made or approved thos decisions? They've given them millions of dollars to run their engines in the IRL. The only people Honda has punished are the fans who supported them and were foolish enough to buy their spew about being in it for the engineering challenge.
Now to add insult to injury the IRL approves a change that makes "spacergate" look like nothing and Honda utters not a peep.
So Robert Clarke, while you're down there kissing Tony's butt you can spare a moment to kiss mine. You wiped away all those years spent building a positive image for Honda in a matter of months. Now you're bolting nameplates on Ilmors to be Toyota's whipping boy in the IRL. Good job.
racer2c
08-16-03, 08:45 PM
Originally posted by nrc
My comment about MCI in the "Most Popular Driver" voting thread got me thinking about the long term affects of sponsorships and how a well handled sponsorship can have a lasting positive affect for a company.
I still have positive feelings about brands like MCI, Shell, Miller, KOOL, Pioneer and Motorola. Even the ones who have gone to the other side have done so with respect for CART and what their sponsorship there did for their brand.
Then there's Honda. This time last year Honda was doing everything in their power to kill CART. A lot of people justified their vindictive behavior saying that CART had it coming. They double crossed Honda. But how has Honda hurt the people who made or approved thos decisions? They've given them millions of dollars to run their engines in the IRL. The only people Honda has punished are the fans who supported them and were foolish enough to buy their spew about being in it for the engineering challenge.
Now to add insult to injury the IRL approves a change that makes "spacergate" look like nothing and Honda utters not a peep.
So Robert Clarke, while you're down there kissing Tony's butt you can spare a moment to kiss mine. You wiped away all those years spent building a positive image for Honda in a matter of months. Now you're bolting nameplates on Ilmors to be Toyota's whipping boy in the IRL. Good job.
Here here! Another classic post nrc. Keep it up, I love it!!!
:thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:
New slogan
Honda, I will never own another one...
Great post
Ziggy
Methanolandbrats
08-16-03, 11:58 PM
I have never and will never buy their crap. I'd cut my lawn with my teeth before I'd use one of their mowers. I felt that way before the CART deal. Today I actually took a sale away from them. A friend was going to get their little SUV and I steered them to a Suzuki Xl-7. Whoohoo.
nrc, I'm glad I finally got to meet you last weekend at MO. Great post.
Originally posted by Methanolandbrats
I have never and will never buy their crap. I'd cut my lawn with my teeth before I'd use one of their mowers. I felt that way before the CART deal. Today I actually took a sale away from them. A friend was going to get their little SUV and I steered them to a Suzuki Xl-7. Whoohoo.
I'm sure they'll appreciate the advice when that pos falls apart on the freeway :)
lone_groover
08-17-03, 06:59 AM
Right on, NRC! Clarke can add my non-yellow butt to his "to kiss" list.
I've rode my last Honda, and when the Camry gives out, I'm heading to my local Mazda dealer.
RR. RS.
08-17-03, 09:04 AM
Here's my slogan:
Honda... never owned one... never will.
You better watch out nrc, Ed Severson might come in here and take you to task about how CART management was responsible, not Honda.
Of course, I agree with you completely. Honda (and Clarke's) propensity for twisting the knife after the fact angers me instantly. Honda and Clarke are two-faced lying ******-*******.
Jag_Warrior
08-17-03, 01:37 PM
Eddie Jordan said last year that the Honda he once knew was not the same company that provided him with engines in 2002. Whatever soul the company once had now seems to be gone (left in a gigantic cloud of oil smoke).
Very nice post, NRC.
Race Dog 99
08-17-03, 01:48 PM
Thank God Toyota nor Honda have rental vehicles with the companies I use. If they did, they wouldn't come back in one piece. Screw both Honda and Toyota, never will I even consider the notion of buying one.
Gurneyflap
08-17-03, 04:44 PM
Thank God I'm still able to separate reality from emotion, and will continue to drive Hondas and Toyotas (as I have since 1971), until some obvious economic/mechanical reason gives me reason NOT to. Suzuki, indeed!
Originally posted by SteveH
nrc, I'm glad I finally got to meet you last weekend at MO. Great post.
Likewise. I hope we can do it again next year.
I was also inspired here by the flood of Honda commercials I've seen on SPEED. I have to wonder whether this is related to CART's demotion to second fiddle on SPEED News.
Add my name to the Kudos.
Great post nrc :thumbup:
Originally posted by Gurneyflap
Thank God I'm still able to separate reality from emotion, and will continue to drive Hondas and Toyotas (as I have since 1971), until some obvious economic/mechanical reason gives me reason NOT to. Suzuki, indeed!
I generally don't allow racing sponsorship to be the major factor in a purchase decision. It may make me aware of a brand I hadn't considered or it may sway me if there are two brands that are otherwise dead even. That's all a company should expect.
If you consider that reality dictates driving Hondas and Toyotas then you live in a different reality than I do. I've considered Hondas and Toyotas but have yet to find one that appealed to me more than the alternatives.
I suppose if you consider cars to be appliances a nice Accord or Camry in refridgerator white would fit the bill for just about everyone. But in car purchases emotion and subjective opinion are a very real part of the equation. There are plenty of choices that are comparable or better that don't come with a big dollop of bile.
You get my vote too, nrc. As far as ignoring where those two Jap. companies stand in regard to CART, I will not buy from them. WE have two VW's and they have both been as reliable as those other brands, except they have some character. VW also makes Audi and that leads to ALMS. :p
Joelski
08-17-03, 08:34 PM
Well said nrc! I agree that certain displayed quite a bit more class than others when they migrated to the land os KoolAid & farting bees. Honda did indeed try to sabotage CART, but it was very hard for the casual viewer to observe. The rate of hand grenade explosions increased as did the spew from mouthpieces such as Clarke. Now they are quietly "taking it" in order to make it to naSCAR. One has to wonder how it feels going to the bottom of the engine manufacturers list, but this CART fan is enjoying evey moment of it!
ya'll are right on here.. thanx nrc .. you saved all of us the words. good work.....paper, proud passat powered by turbo audi owner
jcollins28
08-18-03, 03:27 AM
Here's my slogan:Honda... never owned one... never will.
Here is mine:
Hop On Nothing Dumb Ass
HONDA
Napoleon
08-18-03, 04:52 AM
Great post nrc.
Of any sponsor, ever, in racing (other then tobbaco companies) I have never developed a lower opinion of one then I have of Honda for the reasons you have stated.
sundaydriver
08-18-03, 10:11 AM
My mom and dad both bought Hondas, I bought one and so did my sister. That was about 4 years ago. We have all bought new cars recently and I can tell you that not one of them was a Honda. I made my opinions known and swayed every decision. ;)
Honda tried to KILL CART. If you are a CART fan, DONT EVER FORGET THAT! :flame:
Say what you will about Honda's racing politics, they make good cars. Ironically, the worst car i've had was a Reliant, which was made by Plymouth/Chrysler which is now in partnership with Mercedes, and owns a stake in Ilmor. Guess who makes Honda's IRL engines? :p
I won't get a Toyota though, not after they essentially buried Gurney's AAR ChampCar effort.
racer2c
08-18-03, 11:30 AM
Honda showed the world that you could manufacture reliable autos (by implementing close tolerance engineering) at an affordable price. Their cars continue to sport uninspired exterior design, with refined but awkwardly non-ergonomic interiors (why do I have to reach for the stereo?) and their model line continues to pale in comparison to Toyota's. But back on topic, as a Champ Car fan, I would never purchase another Honda. There are way too many options. I had to applaud talk radio car guy Pat Gauss (sp) the other day when he was asked by a caller if it was 'ok' to buy a Kia. Pat informed them that because of competition and advancements in technology, there's isn't a bad car out there. I want a Chrysler Pacifica and a Chrysler Crossfire, a far far cry from the K cars of yesteryear. But again I digress off topic.
Ed_Severson
08-18-03, 12:21 PM
"You better watch out nrc, Ed Severson might come in here and take you to task about how CART management was responsible, not Honda."
:eek: !
I hate to disappoint an expectant crowd ... ;)
Where the relationship between CART and Honda was concerned, there is no doubt about which party soured the milk for the other. CART was beyond irresponsible in failing to consider how their decisions might endanger the mountain of money Honda, and for that matter Toyota and Ford, poured into this series.
Honda's reaction after the fact, while distasteful to all of us, is at least understandable considering how little regard they were shown by the CART board, and in my opinion, is much more justifiable than Toyota's course of action.
If Honda were to express an interest in returning to champ cars, I hope CART would have enough sense to welcome that interest, but it seems less likely by the day, given that CART is increasingly not the place to be if you're loaded down with money.
And,while I agree that Honda seems to have lost some of the spirit that made them the force they have been in racing for the last generation or two, I think a few of you are a bit quick to pass judgement on their performance, forgetting that the IRL motor is a badging deal, not a build. They'll be back with more authority than most of you expect.
RacinM3
08-18-03, 01:16 PM
Man, you guys are way behind the times. Both of these nameplates were dead to me the day they announced their intentions to field engines in the IRL. I put their tombstones up right next to Chevrolet's, which was really dusty because it's been there so damn long. I trust if you look back most of you feel the same.
oddlycalm
08-18-03, 01:49 PM
Originally posted by Jag_Warrior
Eddie Jordan said last year that the Honda he once knew was not the same company that provided him with engines in 2002. Whatever soul the company once had now seems to be gone (left in a gigantic cloud of oil smoke).
Definitely not the same company since Soichiro Honda passed away. An apt analogy would be Disney under Walt Disney and Disney under Michael Eisner. Same name, very different company. Mr. Honda would never sit for the nonsense that has gone on in CART and F1, but then the people responsible would never have been in those jobs to begin with under Soichiro Honda.
As vendors, we began to notice a drastic change soon after Mr. Honda's death. Senior engineers at Honda in Japan began to adopt the typical Japanese posture of isolating themselves from the process, and not listening to any advice from outside experts. Soon, they would not even agree to meet with vendors. Instead they hand down edicts through the junior engineers on how tooling is to be supplied and deployed without a clue as to how it should actually be done. The end result is that most of it has to be redone in the plants. Engineers at the plants, whether in Japan or the US, then get frustrated with the vendor for simply following these edicts. We normally figure on re-tooling any job for Honda, and no longer even worry about the details prior to arrival in the plant.
I've seen them ship entire machines from their IPT fuel injection business outside Indy back to Japan for rebuild based on an edict from corporate that these machines were impossible to rebuild except by the builder. This is complete nonsense of course. This virtually doubles the cost, and the machine is out of production for three times as long.
An unexpected consequence of this is that Honda in the US began to source not only parts and components but more and more tooling and machinery in the US rather than Japan. The last four cam lobe grinders came from Landis rather than NTC or Toyoda. Not only are they better lobe grinders, but they have state of the art tooling, not the hopelessly out of date nonsense mandated by corporate.
This behavior is fundamental at odds with Honda history. Soichiro Honda not only hated the big WWII era family dominated conglomerates call zaibatsu, as well as the modern equivalent, the various bank dominated keiretsu. He clearly valued performance over relationships, and is said to have been a great teacher that would listen carefully to all views. This is how he moved forward so quickly, by relying on the expertise of the entire group. After his passing, Honda corporate culture has changed very quickly. It has become even more conservative and traditionally Japanese than it's rivals, something that does not bode well for it's future.
We all know that Soichiro Honda would not have allowed the company to sit idle while engine after engine grenaded in it's racing programs. We all know that Soichiro Honda would never bolted his name to an Ilmor engine out of convenience.
Peter Venkman
08-18-03, 02:32 PM
Excellent nrc.
If you wouldn't mind, I wouldn't mind standing right next to you... when Clarke kisses your hieny.
Perhaps he could kiss mine also.
Gurneyflap
08-19-03, 10:12 AM
nr'-certainly reality does NOT dictate one drive a Toyota or Honda (I was merely referring to MY 30+ years of trouble-free driving)... and I seldom wash and wax my refrigerator so I guess cars as appliances doesn't fit here either. I have never owned an Accord or Camry, but wouldn't you agree those companies have built other vehicles with more of your described "emotion"? As you said, it IS subjective and the reason for so many different kinds of cars. I guess to say I was upset with the mfg. moves to the IRL is an understatement, but not upset to the point of unloading my vehicle or not considering another from those companies in the future. I didn't suddenly hate Gil, Helio, Kanaan, et al, either. Am I just TOO tolerant?
racer2c
08-19-03, 10:23 AM
Originally posted by Gurneyflap
nr'-certainly reality does NOT dictate one drive a Toyota or Honda (I was merely referring to MY 30+ years of trouble-free driving)... and I seldom wash and wax my refrigerator so I guess cars as appliances doesn't fit here either. I have never owned an Accord or Camry, but wouldn't you agree those companies have built other vehicles with more of your described "emotion"? As you said, it IS subjective and the reason for so many different kinds of cars. I guess to say I was upset with the mfg. moves to the IRL is an understatement, but not upset to the point of unloading my vehicle or not considering another from those companies in the future. I didn't suddenly hate Gil, Helio, Kanaan, et al, either. Am I just TOO tolerant?
Too tolerant or lack of integrity or just doesn't think it's worth adjusting your life over. I was discussing this with my wife just last night and she threw me that look that said "get real". She said that if wants a Honda, she'll buy a Honda and I said "look her woman..." and she threw me another look and I said "ok, but I'll never buy a Honda!"
I'd wax my fridge if I drove it in the rain.
datachicane
08-19-03, 01:41 PM
Yeah, I'd wax my fridge!
Kick-ass crushed ice and chilled water through the door, real freezer on top like God intended, cranks out ice cubes faster a glacier baking in an HFC-induced ozone hole. I love it. I may go home and wax it right now.
In an unrelated note, I'd drive an S2000 rather than being gently prodded in the eye with a fairly dull object. My driveway's full of Fords, so I've done my part.
racer2c
08-19-03, 01:50 PM
Originally posted by datachicane
Yeah, I'd wax my fridge!
Kick-ass crushed ice and chilled water through the door, real freezer on top like God intended, cranks out ice cubes faster a glacier baking in an HFC-induced ozone hole. I love it. I may go home and wax it right now.
Hallaluha! We don't wax ours, but since it's stainless steel it uses a special cleaner to get rid of the finger prints. Kind of like waxing.
Honda makes great cars. If you decide to buy something else because Honda lied you are not being rational.
I bought a Mazda myself.
Gurneyflap
08-20-03, 10:36 AM
See! Some people even buy Fords and Mazdas. Hey, wait a minute...aren't they the same thing!? (had an '89 MX-6 GT Turbo, plate "#", KAROSHI. I think, in Japanese it sort of means "working one's self to death", as in TRYING TO MAKE THE DAMN PAYMENTS"! (PS-that's the car that taught me what torque-steer was! &...it was refrigerator white!
I had a 84 Honda Civic Wagovan. White and looked just like a washmachine. Brings back some fond auto-appliance memories...
formulaben
08-23-03, 02:23 PM
Originally posted by Gurneyflap
nr'-certainly reality does NOT dictate one drive a Toyota or Honda (I was merely referring to MY 30+ years of trouble-free driving)... and I seldom wash and wax my refrigerator so I guess cars as appliances doesn't fit here either. I have never owned an Accord or Camry, but wouldn't you agree those companies have built other vehicles with more of your described "emotion"? As you said, it IS subjective and the reason for so many different kinds of cars. I guess to say I was upset with the mfg. moves to the IRL is an understatement, but not upset to the point of unloading my vehicle or not considering another from those companies in the future. I didn't suddenly hate Gil, Helio, Kanaan, et al, either. Am I just TOO tolerant?
I think I speak for all of us when I say nobody here hates the drivers that defected, with the lone exception of Michael. While Mr Clarke kisses my ass, Micheal can work on the other side...:D
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