Jacques Villeneuve fired, then quits before last race [Archive]

jonovision_man

10-09-03, 10:31 AM

Originally posted by Crapus
If Villeneuve races in CART again I will eat a grape out of Warlock's butt. :gomer:

Ain't gonna happen.

Why so skeptical? Next year it's almost guaranteed he won't have an F1 ride. That doesn't leave much in the OW world, he definately wouldn't go to the IRL.

I figure if he wants to race next year, it's CART or maybe Le Mans (maybe paired up with a season of ALMS??? Get your tickets to Mosport now! :) ). I can't imagine anything else would be on his radar.

As for 2005, there may be some F1 possibilities, but his name is mud for now. Although BAR will likely regret their Button/Sato pairing, it'll almost certainly be one of the weakest driver pairings other than Jordan or Minardi...

jono

JT265

10-09-03, 10:32 AM

Originally posted by Crapus
If Villeneuve races in CART again I will eat a grape out of Warlock's butt. :gomer:

Ain't gonna happen.

Can't speak for Matty on that deal, but would it be okay if I took pictures? :D

Don Quixote

10-09-03, 10:32 AM

Originally posted by Crapus
If Villeneuve races in CART again I will eat a grape out of Warlock's butt. :gomer:

Ain't gonna happen.

A Thompson Seedless or a Concord? :eek:

Dirty Sanchez

10-09-03, 10:37 AM

Why so skeptical you ask? Because he's said he wouldn't come back to CART on like 50 separate occasions. Only his fanboys seem to turn a deaf ear on his remarks though.

He has gone on record as saying he would strongly consider a Le Mans seat... other than that, he'll probably be banging his supermodel girlfriend on a yacht somewhere in the Mediterranean when he's not watching videotapes from the 97 season. :D

jonovision_man

10-09-03, 10:49 AM

Originally posted by Crapus
Why so skeptical you ask? Because he's said he wouldn't come back to CART on like 50 separate occasions. Only his seem fanboys turn a deaf ear to his remarks though.

He has gone on record as saying he would strongly consider a Le Mans seat... other than that, he'll probably be banging his supermodel girlfriend on a yacht somewhere in the Mediterranean when he's not watching videotapes from the 97 season. :D

He says a lot of things... he said he'd win races at BAR, too. :rolleyes:

I think the current situation he finds himself in combined with the fact that Pollock owns a team could compel him to come back for a race or even a season.

jono

Dirty Sanchez

10-09-03, 11:08 AM

So the "he tells it like it is" stuff that his fans always drone on about only applies to certain situations. Ok, I get it.

:p

RaceGrrl

10-09-03, 11:08 AM

Originally posted by Crapus
If Villeneuve races in CART again I will eat a grape out of Warlock's butt. :gomer:

Ain't gonna happen.

Man, oh man... that just ain't right. Now I have that unfortunate image seared into my brain- I'll never be the same. Funny as hell though. :D

JoeBob

10-09-03, 11:15 AM

Originally posted by Moto-Guzzi
I don't know what's gone down behind closed doors at BAR, but is seems unprofesinal to quit before the last race. I know JV is a premadonna??? as most f-1 drivers are, but I think it would have shown character to though if out and finish the season, heart in it or not. In anycase I would still like to seem try CART again.

If you don't want to race with a team, and the team doesn't want you to drive for them, why race? BAR gets a head start on next year, and Jacques gets an early vacation. I wouldn't be shocked to learn later on that this was "mutual decision" not "Jacques walking out."

This sort of deal isn't unusual from either side. Remember when Dario Franchitti signed with TKG? Carl Hogan put Robby Gordon in the car for the last race of the year. He figured that if Dario didn't want to be with his team, then he didn't want Dario in his car.

Honestly, I'm surprised we don't see more shuffling driver lineups by teams out of contention.

Dirty Sanchez

10-09-03, 11:30 AM

Originally posted by JoeBob
Honestly, I'm surprised we don't see more shuffling driver lineups by teams out of contention. There is a lot more at stake besides the WDC. Take a look at the constructors standings.

jonovision_man

10-09-03, 11:34 AM

Originally posted by Crapus
So the "he tells it like it is" stuff that his fans always drone on about only applies to certain situations. Ok, I get it.

:p

He tells it like he THINKS it is... ;-)

jono

Turn7

10-09-03, 11:37 AM

Wasn't it long rumored that BAR wanted to race somebody else other than JV at Suzuka. I remember a rumor going around that a Japanese driver would be in the BAR entry for Suzuka. I don't think JV quit, rather the rumor had some meat to it.

jonovision_man

10-09-03, 11:40 AM

Originally posted by JoeBob
I wouldn't be shocked to learn later on that this was "mutual decision" not "Jacques walking out."

I don't think so, this is what Dave Richard's (BAR team principal) said:

"I was travelling down here on the bullet train this morning and I received a call from Craig Pollock informing me that Jacques wanted to be released from his contractual obligations," he told reporters.

"I've agreed to this. If somebody doesn't want to drive, they don't want to drive and so Takuma will be driving on Sunday."

I truly believe him when he says Jacques initiated it.

Take a look at the Constructor's championship, it's VERY tight. BAR has a lot to lose by putting a driver who hasn't raced F1 for a year in the car.

BAR could realistically finish as high as 5th, or as low as 8th... and that makes an enormous difference in the TV revenue and travel money allotment, it could literally cost them millions if Sato doesn't do as well as Jacques would have.

5.) Sauber - 19 points
6.) BAR - 18 points
7.) Jaguar - 18
8.) Toyota - 14
9.) Jordan - 13

Sauber scored 10 points last race, anything is still possible...

jono

devilmaster

10-09-03, 12:08 PM

Very simply,

JV will go where Pollock can convince him to drive, to make the most money off of him driving.... If he isn't driving, Pollock isn't making money from his largest revenue source for the last five or so years.

Steve

Warlock!

10-09-03, 12:24 PM

Originally posted by Crapus
If Villeneuve races in CART again I will eat a grape out of Warlock's butt. :gomer:

Ain't gonna happen.
I don't have a problem with this, but you're gonna hafta clear it with the wife. Do you know how long it took me to convince her to let me put peanut butter on my crack so the dog could lick it off???

*hoping the Villeeuve to ChampCar rumors are true*

Warlock!

RobGuru

10-09-03, 12:30 PM

Originally posted by Warlock!
I don't have a problem with this, but you're gonna hafta clear it with the wife. Do you know how long it took me to convince her to let me put peanut butter on my crack so the dog could lick it off???

*hoping the Villeeuve to ChampCar rumors are true*

Warlock!

Now there's two thoroughly frightening images floating around!!
:rofl:

Methanolandbrats

10-09-03, 12:59 PM

Peanut butter and grapes? All ya need is a long stick of celery and you're good to go.

Warlock!

10-09-03, 01:10 PM

Originally posted by Methanolandbrats
Peanut butter and grapes? All ya need is a long stick of celery and you're good to go. Sicko!

Warlock!

jonovision_man

10-09-03, 01:18 PM

Originally posted by devilmaster
Very simply,

JV will go where Pollock can convince him to drive, to make the most money off of him driving.... If he isn't driving, Pollock isn't making money from his largest revenue source for the last five or so years.

Steve

Agreed. Pollock would still be a teacher if not for Jacques.

Hope it's CART or ALMS, either way it would mean a race for him in Toronto! :-)

jono

RaceChic

10-09-03, 01:38 PM

Originally posted by jonovision_man
Hope it's CART or ALMS, either way it would mean a race for him in Toronto!

:thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:

RaceChic

10-09-03, 02:10 PM

Originally posted by Warlock!
I don't have a problem with this, but you're gonna hafta clear it with the wife. Do you know how long it took me to convince her to let me put peanut butter on my crack so the dog could lick it off???

*hoping the Villeeuve to ChampCar rumors are true*

Warlock!

Me no comprende...... :laugh: ;) :p

Except the part about Jacques Villeneuve to CART..... THAT part I get !!! :thumbup:

JoeBob

10-09-03, 02:17 PM

Originally posted by jonovision_man
BAR could realistically finish as high as 5th, or as low as 8th... and that makes an enormous difference in the TV revenue and travel money allotment, it could literally cost them millions if Sato doesn't do as well as Jacques would have.

If BAR didn't think that Sato could do a better job than Jacques, why did they hire him to replace Jacques?

BAR decided they wanted Sato more than they wanted Jacques. Now they've got Sato even sooner! They can't really complain about that, can they?

Dirty Sanchez

10-09-03, 02:19 PM

Dr. Corkski

10-09-03, 02:31 PM

Looks like my friend Crapus is going to starve to death. :laugh:

Link (http://www.f1racing.net/news.php?ID=64009)

jonovision_man

10-09-03, 02:43 PM

Originally posted by JoeBob
If BAR didn't think that Sato could do a better job than Jacques, why did they hire him to replace Jacques?

BAR decided they wanted Sato more than they wanted Jacques. Now they've got Sato even sooner! They can't really complain about that, can they?

Honda decided they wanted Sato. BAR is just along for the ride.

Sato is good for marketting, not neccessarily results.

He's already been fired once, doesn't make him the best gamble out there.

IMO.

Jacques in CART could really boost the Montreal race, especially with the void left by F1 leaving. It would also help Toronto and Vancouver, although they already have fine attendance. I figure Jacques would be good for CART to the tune of a few million more Canuck-bucks.

jono

Dr. Corkski

10-09-03, 03:00 PM

Originally posted by jonovision_man
He's already been fired once, doesn't make him the best gamble out there.Sato wasn't fired. He didn't have enough money to pay for the Jordan ride so he left to test for BAR before Jordan took Firman's checkbook.

It's funny that JVil's fanboys call him a anti-corporate free-thinker but at the same time they are trying to decide what he should do for no other than corporate reasons when he has already come out publicly and said that CART is NOT GOOD ENOUGH for him.

DjDrOmusic

10-09-03, 03:02 PM

Originally posted by Crapus
If Villeneuve races in CART again I will eat a grape out of Warlock's butt. :gomer:

So now I have to get grapes for Woo Doggies?? ;) :p :saywhat:

jonovision_man

10-09-03, 03:08 PM

Originally posted by Dr. Zhivago
Sato wasn't fired. He didn't have enough money to pay for the Jordan ride so he left to test for BAR before Jordan took Firman's checkbook.

It's funny that JVil's fanboys call him a anti-corporate free-thinker but at the same time they are trying to decide what he should do for no other than corporate reasons when he has already come out publicly and said that CART is NOT GOOD ENOUGH for him.

Sato was terrible that whole season, with only one stand-out race, his last in Japan. He must have crashed at least half the races. Money wasn't the only issue there.

Jacques could come to CART because there's not a lot of other options, assuming he still wants to race.

jono

JT265

10-09-03, 03:19 PM

Originally posted by Dr. Zhivago
Sato wasn't fired. He didn't have enough money to pay for the Jordan ride so he left to test for BAR before Jordan took Firman's checkbook.

It's funny that JVil's fanboys call him a anti-corporate free-thinker but at the same time they are trying to decide what he should do for no other than corporate reasons when he has already come out publicly and said that CART is NOT GOOD ENOUGH for him.

So, where to start? Lessee, Sato, in your view, DIDN'T have enough Honda Yen to keep crashing for Jordan, right? Um.........OK.

Ohy, and he said that he wasn't interested in CART in it's current state. I figured using 1/2 the quote was just an oversight on your part.

And as to your fanboys remark? Keep bringing it Cork, we're ALL ears. Seems your far more interested in what he does than most. Why is that exactly?

racer2c

10-09-03, 03:38 PM

JV's comments change from day to day. The only way to see if he's in a Champ Car in '04 is to see who gets in the cockpit come raceday.

jonovision_man

10-09-03, 03:59 PM

Originally posted by racer2c
The only way to see if he's in a Champ Car in '04 is to see who gets in the cockpit come raceday.

No, no, no! We still have to talk about it ad nauseum for at least another 20 pages of posts... ;)

jono

Dirty Sanchez

10-09-03, 04:06 PM

Originally posted by Dr. Zhivago
Looks like my friend Crapus is going to starve to death. :laugh:

Link (http://www.f1racing.net/news.php?ID=64009) "He probably didn't mean it though Dr. Z... I mean, I hope he doesn't mean it... we like him, I mean, really he'll be back, don't ya think? But... but... the Pollock tie-in is there. He loves CART and wants to race in Canada again. I just know it, even if he doesn't." :shakehead

:rofl:

Dirty Sanchez

10-09-03, 04:25 PM

Sato scores more points next year than Villeneuve did this year. Book it.

Warlock!

10-09-03, 04:44 PM

Originally posted by Crapus
Sato scores more points next year than Villeneuve did this year. Book it.
Dude... I think you've doubled your post-count since Jaques was fired. he must really grate on you, huh? :D

Warlock!

rocket

10-09-03, 05:21 PM

Ya know, I usually don't like to read between the lines Crapus...but I'm gettin' the feeling that you don't think JV will be in CART next year. :D

I agree with ya there..not gonna go as far as the grape thing, but I won't lose any sleep over it. JMO.

Wheel-Nut

10-09-03, 05:27 PM

JV and PT in at Panther next year!! You heard it here first!

JT265

10-09-03, 06:11 PM

Originally posted by Wheel-Nut
JV and PT in at Panther next year!! You heard it here first!

What's a panther???? ;)

RaceChic

10-09-03, 06:31 PM

Originally posted by JT265
What's a panther???? ;)

It's a large black cat that lives in the wild. :D

Dirty Sanchez

10-09-03, 06:39 PM

Originally posted by Warlock!
Dude... I think you've doubled your post-count since Jaques was fired. he must really grate on you, huh? :D

Warlock! Today is a day for celebration because the meltdown that I predicted at the beginning of the year has come full circle. :D I am still truly amazed at the excuses his fans will come up for him though... its mind boggling.

Oh yeah... that, and my boss in Italy so I have more time than usual to post (didn't think that was possible.) ;)

RichK

10-09-03, 06:57 PM

Originally posted by RaceChic
It's a large black cat that lives in the wild. :D

Actually, RaceChic, the particular panther JT is wondering about is yellow, and had its legs shortened so that it must run to a mandated speed. The feet have surgically implanted suction cups to keep it glued to the ground so that no matter how dumb the panther is, it can't goof up when rounding a turn.

HOWEVER, this particular yellow panther is given special panther-food when running against other supposedly equally slow cats, so that it is ensured of outrunning them.

fourrunner

10-09-03, 08:17 PM

Originally posted by Crapus
If Villeneuve races in CART again I will eat a grape out of Warlock's butt. :gomer:

Ain't gonna happen.

Red or Green?

Just avoid the ones with pits! ;)

cart7

10-09-03, 08:49 PM

I suppose I'd have some sympathy for the guy had he tried to get out of his contract in the last couple years but he's just hung around cashing big checks while he's sucking the team dry and basically, mailing in his results (I believe this was JT's remark). With all that money, why would you ever want to drive again. I've got to believe he lost the "edge" several years ago, he's become a driver that never completely fulfilled his talent. He bought out of the system 5 years ago on a world championship, Cart championship and a 500 victory. :shakehead

nz_climber

10-09-03, 09:01 PM

I reckon he's off to NASCAB :rolleyes:

Methanolandbrats

10-09-03, 09:05 PM

Jack has such a powerful work ethic he could become Minardi's Test Driver and take that team to the front of the grid in three years.;)

Railbird

10-09-03, 09:40 PM

Indy Champ

National Champ

World Champ

what the hell more can be said?

LeMans maybe

the boy is, and always has been, a force behind the wheel.

I'd like to see him race anywhere, but I wouldn't blame him for laying back in a pile of money and laughing it off.

RaceChic

10-09-03, 10:10 PM

Originally posted by cart7
I suppose I'd have some sympathy for the guy had he tried to get out of his contract in the last couple years but he's just hung around cashing big checks while he's sucking the team dry and basically, mailing in his results (I believe this was JT's remark). With all that money, why would you ever want to drive again. I've got to believe he lost the "edge" several years ago, he's become a driver that never completely fulfilled his talent. He bought out of the system 5 years ago on a world championship, Cart championship and a 500 victory. :shakehead

I've been informed that those accomplishments aren't worth a hill of beans. ;) :p :D

Methanolandbrats

10-09-03, 10:19 PM

OK, here's a story. A friend of mine has shot some F1 races for a German Mag. His job is to follow Schumi around. Don't remember which year it was, but my friend was trying to shoot Schumi after qualifying. Keep in mind the championship had already been won, but Schumi was in a team meeting going over notes for an hour. Meanwhile JV got out of the car, changed into streetclothes and was yucking it up for that hour. Is the difference clear? It's called a work ethic. Winning Indy and jumping into the best car and squeaking out a World Title does not mean you can build a team.

cart7

10-09-03, 10:26 PM

Originally posted by Methanolandbrats
Jack has such a powerful work ethic he could become Minardi's Test Driver and take that team to the front of the grid in three years.;)
Really? Is Bernie moving Minardi to F3000? :D

RaceChic

10-09-03, 11:21 PM

Originally posted by Crapus
Today is a day for celebration because the meltdown that I predicted at the beginning of the year has come full circle. :D I am still truly amazed at the excuses his fans will come up for him though... its mind boggling.

We are not making excuses. We have faith in him. Faith is what you have in a driver that you call a favorite and that makes you their fan.

It turns out that my "faith" in Jacques Villenueve was not completely blind. And JT265's hunch that there might be more to this behind the scenes was closer to the truth than not.

Link to F1i.com (http://www.f1i.com/articles/ARTICLE_537971.html)

JV 'Asisted' In His Decision Not To Race At Suzuka October 9 13:31

Villeneuve didn't choose not to race at the season ending race at Suzuka.

Contrary to previous reports, our sources indicate that Jacques was encouraged to pull out of the race in order to make room for local favorite Takuma Sato.

Last year, Sato drove a Jordan to a surprising fifth place in the Japanese Grand Prix. BAR management is indicated to be responsible for the move in order to please a faction within Honda that want Sato in the car.

Sato has been chosen to drive for BAR next season.

It seems unlikely that Jacques would have chosen not to race in what is possibly his last F1 race and it would be a shame to have to say goodbye to Jacques under these circumstances

Jonezzy_33

10-10-03, 02:06 AM

Originally posted by RaceChic
Link to F1i.com (http://www.f1i.com/articles/ARTICLE_537971.html)

JV 'Asisted' In His Decision Not To Race At Suzuka October 9 13:31

Villeneuve didn't choose not to race at the season ending race at Suzuka.

Contrary to previous reports, our sources indicate that Jacques was encouraged to pull out of the race in order to make room for local favorite Takuma Sato.

Last year, Sato drove a Jordan to a surprising fifth place in the Japanese Grand Prix. BAR management is indicated to be responsible for the move in order to please a faction within Honda that want Sato in the car.

Sato has been chosen to drive for BAR next season.

It seems unlikely that Jacques would have chosen not to race in what is possibly his last F1 race and it would be a shame to have to say goodbye to Jacques under these circumstances

I could easily believe this. It wouldn't surprise me at all if this was the way it went down.

Ed_Severson

10-10-03, 02:45 AM

Sounds closer to the truth than anything else that's been floating around the last few days ...

That said, I can't imagine he would have been too excited over the opportunity to race in Japan anyhow. He's basically given five years of his career to an organization that couldn't find their ass with both hands and a flashlight, and the instant they think they can see light at the end of the tunnel, they cut him loose for the next Taki Inoue.

If it were me, I think my reaction to that would be a little closer to "#%&@ you" than "hey, let's have one more go at it, please!"

Somebody above mentioned how important this race is for the team because of the championship implications -- given that he's already been informed that he won't be racing for them next year, I don't suppose Jacques really gives a damn whether they finish fifth or eighth, and neither would anybody else. And, as has been pointed out previously, they don't seem to be too eager to procure his help in defeating their rivals in the future, so it doesn't make sense that they view him as a critical piece of the puzzle now.

Whether he returns to F1 or not, Villeneuve has nothing left to prove. He managed to win three of the most prestigious titles in motorsport -- F1 World Champion, Indianapolis 500 Champion, and CART Champion -- at a time when they all meant something.

Most drivers never even get a sniff of one of those. Collecting all three before you're 30 makes for a pretty enviable career, future events notwithstanding.

The man has nothing left to prove on the track, least of all his professionalism.

jonovision_man

10-10-03, 09:36 AM

Originally posted by Ed_Severson

Somebody above mentioned how important this race is for the team because of the championship implications -- given that he's already been informed that he won't be racing for them next year, I don't suppose Jacques really gives a damn whether they finish fifth or eighth, and neither would anybody else. And, as has been pointed out previously, they don't seem to be too eager to procure his help in defeating their rivals in the future, so it doesn't make sense that they view him as a critical piece of the puzzle now.

That was me... I figure if BAR were smart, they would have had Jacques in the car for one more race before announcing the driver line-up. He would have been motivated to try win that seat, or any seat, and could have really helped them in the WCC.

Instead, they have thrown Sato to the lions, and it could cost them big bucks.

How much? It's not completely known, but Jordan this week said that the new scoring placing him 9th instead of 5th cost his team "a bucket full of dosh"... according to ITV "Jordan estimates that he will lose around £4m in travel costs and TV money". For the Americans in the crowd, that works out to about $6-7M USD. Not chump change!

Sato did well in first qualifying, but by the end of the weekend, we'll see... a semi-motivated Jacques is better than a ultra-motivated-and-nervous Sato who hasn't raced all year, IMO.

jono

Dirty Sanchez

10-10-03, 10:19 AM

I suppose HHF and Heidfeld should have just packed in sometime before Monza then... I mean, its not like they owe the team anything right?

I guess they're just fools for finishing out their commitment to their team. :shakehead

:BS:

Ed_Severson

10-10-03, 10:36 AM

"Sato did well in first qualifying, but by the end of the weekend, we'll see... a semi-motivated Jacques is better than a ultra-motivated-and-nervous Sato who hasn't raced all year, IMO."

Probably so, but perhaps Dave Richards should have thought of that before he fired Villeneuve midseason.

"I suppose HHF and Heidfeld should have just packed in sometime before Monza then... I mean, its not like they owe the team anything right?"

It's also not like Frentzen and Heidfeld have half the resume Villeneuve does.

My guess is that Heidfeld and Frentzen think they've got something left to prove to try and get a ride next year. Villeneuve obviously doesn't need to prove anything to anybody. He's got more talent than 98% of the guys he's raced the last five years, and he's a World Champion. I don't think he'll leave feeling like he has unfinished business in motor racing.

But, what the hell ... let's slag him some more, as if we could ever understand what it's like to walk in those shoes.

Dirty Sanchez

10-10-03, 10:58 AM

Well, if he has nothing left to prove why is he whinging that he's being forced out of F1? "Its everybody's fault but Jacques." Like everyone else in the paddock, I see right through that crap.

jonovision_man

10-10-03, 11:06 AM

Originally posted by Crapus
I suppose HHF and Heidfeld should have just packed in sometime before Monza then... I mean, its not like they owe the team anything right?

I guess they're just fools for finishing out their commitment to their team. :shakehead

:BS:

Not even close to the same situation, of course, Sauber has treated HHF and Heidfeld with respect, while Richards has made things extrodinarily unpleasant for Jacques.

It was - reportedly - a mutual agreement for Jacques not to race, so I don't think he really did anything that wrong.

Still, not the best way to go out.

jono

Dirty Sanchez

10-10-03, 11:26 AM

I'm reading back through this thread and a few others on the subject and the same references to JV's (long) past accomplishments keep coming up. Past accomplishments are fine and dandy and shouldn't be taken away from the guy... but some of you act as if he should somehow get a free pass that other drivers shouldn't get because of his past success. JV himself seems to suggest same, with his "I have nothing left to prove" comments. All fine and good, go ahead retire, don't whinge, and go admire your trophy case then. But this complacent attitude is precisely why JV has fallen off the map over recent years, imo. You have to push yourself everyday and prove yourself everyday to be a player in F1. The only drivers that I know of (there may be others) that have or could get a lifetime contract with a team are Michael Schumacher and Jeff Gordon. Both of which have satisfied their superiors (yes, Jacques, you do work for someone) that they can stay sufficiently motivated, can remain a positive force within their team, and bring home good (realistic) results on a regular basis. JV on the other hand feels he is in a position to question the bosses decisions publicly, play mind games with his teammate that backfire horribly, slag his engine manufacturer, object to satisfying PR commitments... and generally underperform.

I'm not surprised that a maverick like JV has a lot of fans... I think having an outspoken character like JV is good for F1. But to say he has been mistreated is laughable, imho.

Ed_Severson

10-10-03, 11:31 AM

"Well, if he has nothing left to prove why is he whinging that he's being forced out of F1?"

You'd have to ask him that question, but I assume it's because he still wants to drive.

Is it an intellectual stretch for you to comprehend that somebody might want to race just for the hell of it, and not because he needs to prove his talents to the universe?

This obsession with turning Villeneuve from a driver into the devil incarnate is bordering on psychosis. See a doctor. Run into the woods and screm "&#$@" fifty or sixty times. Chop some wood. But for God's sake, shut the hell up. He's human, just like you and me. You don't have to like him, but you sure as hell aren't going to convince anybody who does that they're wrong.

Dirty Sanchez

10-10-03, 11:39 AM

Is it necessary to attack me just because I feel strongly about this subject? :confused: Perhaps you should head over to this forum. (http://www.network54.com/Hide/Forum/68552) The discussion over there might be a little more your speed. ;)

If he still wants to drive for the love of it, great. I think his actions have said something else over the past 5 years though...

Ed_Severson

10-10-03, 11:43 AM

"some of you act as if he should somehow get a free pass that other drivers shouldn't get because of his past success."

Haven't seen anybody make that claim, Villeneuve included.

"JV himself seems to suggest same, with his "I have nothing left to prove" comments."

That's not a request for a free drive. That's a simple statement that he's proven what he can do in a racing car. If nobody's interested, so be it.

"But this complacent attitude is precisely why JV has fallen off the map over recent years, imo. You have to push yourself everyday and prove yourself everyday to be a player in F1."

And, yet again, I don't think Villeneuve needs to prove that to himself or anyone else.

"The only drivers that I know of (there may be others) that have or could get a lifetime contract with a team are Michael Schumacher and Jeff Gordon. Both of which have satisfied their superiors (yes, Jacques, you do work for someone) that they can stay sufficiently motivated, can remain a positive force within their team, and bring home good (realistic) results on a regular basis."

Both of them also drive for teams that are light years ahead of BAR in terms of the resource level they possess relative to their competition. But, of course, that can't be a factor.

"JV on the other hand feels he is in a position to question the bosses decisions publicly, play mind games with his teammate that backfire horribly, slag his engine manufacturer, object to satisfying PR commitments... and generally underperform."

So, your opinion is that Villeneuve feels he's allowed to underperform, and that behavior is somehow unethical and reeks of laziness, but the fact that he's invested five in a team that epitomizes underperformance gives him no room to complain?

Sorry, but that doesn't add up. Last time I checked the BAR website, Villeneuve's official title was "Race Driver." I could be wrong, but for most F1 teams, it isn't the race driver's responsibility to design or build the car, or hire the staff that does so. His only job is to go out and drive what the team gives him. If it's a POS, there's not much blame that can be shouldered by the race driver.

"But to say he has been mistreated is laughable, imho."

There seems to be a mountain of evidence to the contrary. You are, of course, free to ignore that mountain of evidence. Just don't insist that I do the same.

JT265

10-10-03, 11:44 AM

But to say he has been mistreated is laughable, imho

Aww, that's just MEAN!!!!!! :D

(true tho') ;)

Let me edit to be clear.....

Some of the stuff JV's put up with could be called mistreatment, HOWEVER, pay ME 20 xtra-large a year, and you can do most anything with, or TO me.

(save for dating an earl driver. One must have principles)

Dirty Sanchez

10-10-03, 11:45 AM

I am your David Richards. :rofl:

Ed_Severson

10-10-03, 11:56 AM

"Is it necessary to attack me just because I feel strongly about this subject?"

I don't know. Was it necessary to introduce sarcastic responses to my posts to attempt to distort what I said?

You treat me with respect, and I'll treat you with respect. You want to put words in my mouth, the gloves come off. Discussion is fine and dandy, but I don't tolerate that from anybody, rules be damned.

As for what is and is not "my speed" -- you're in no position to make that judgement. Keep your smart-assed Disney references to yourself, lippy. ;) It's all in good fun, of course -- nobody's here to make this personal, myself included.

Back on topic -- you can bash Villeneuve all you want, but here's a suggestion. Go beat your brains against a brick wall for five years, and see how you feel afterwards. You're telling me you wouldn't want to quit that three days early?

Dirty Sanchez

10-10-03, 12:24 PM

I'll simply ignore the first 3/4 of your post and focus on the topic at hand... I play by the rules. ;)

back on topic:

First off, I wouldn't equate driving for BAR with hitting your head against a wall... so I don't see the tie-in. In his role as "Race Driver" his job is to get the best results with the equipment given to him. 60% of the teams realistically don't have a shot at a win... but there's more at stake than wins. Nobody likes being a lame duck and I can understand his unenviable position. But if he's committed to doing his job (apparently he's not) he should race just like HHF and Heidfeld are doing. Finish the season, more importantly--finish your career, and then air your dirty laundry. I think its a crappy way to go out and it provides infinite ammunition for his detractors. In my mind its just the cherry on the top of JV's ice cream sundae of regrettable decisions, complacent attitude and mediocre results. But like many have already said, he's got his F1 loot to comfort him and some pretty sweet credentials.

[edit] by the way... check out this thread (http://cartfanatics.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=10399&perpage=20&pagenumber=1) for some light-hearted JV humor. :D

Ed_Severson

10-10-03, 12:43 PM

"But if he's committed to doing his job (apparently he's not) he should race just like HHF and Heidfeld are doing."

You assume that he was given that option, and we don't know that to be the case. So far, the only person who has claimed that it was Villeneuve's request to sit out the last race was David Richards, who I'm sure has no reason to tell anything but the entire, unadulterated truth. :rolleyes:

But, even if it was his choice, he's got the right to make that decision. At the very least, Richards has said that he gave his consent. If it was really an issue, the team would be suing Villeneuve for breach of contract.

I suspect the truth of the matter is that they didn't want him this weekend, and as is typical for any team parting with a high-profile driver, they're doing everything they can in the media to play the role of innocent bystander.

Dirty Sanchez

10-10-03, 12:54 PM

HERE (http://www.canoe.ca/NewsStand/TorontoSun/Sports/2003/10/10/221976.html) are some quotes... not all of which are attributed to Richards.

mapguy

10-10-03, 12:59 PM

Originally posted by Crapus
[edit] by the way... check out this thread (http://cartfanatics.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=10399&perpage=20&pagenumber=1) for some light-hearted JV humor. :D

I read that thread earlier and it is hilarious. And I'm a JV fan.

I thought that I'd add my 2 cents to this thread. Crapus and I have had 'discussions' ;) about JV before. I am not about to try and change his opinion and there is nothing that he can say to change mine. Even tho his opinion sux :D . <j/k>

About JV. I have been following his career ever since he was racing Alfa saloons in Italy. It wasn't until he came to race in North America that I was able to follow him in some other fashion than the weekly Autosport. His first real race in NA was at Trois Riviers in 1992 driving an older Swift and, in a car he never driven before and on a track he had never seen before, came in 3rd.

I had a chance to meet him the next year at Mosport and he was getting out of his rental car (and, yes, I did have my pants on as it was a cold and miserable day at Mosport.) and he autographed my Player's hat for me. I still have that hat to this day. He did a pretty good job that year, winning 5 races and Rookie of the Year award. (Although I thought that Claude Bourbonnais was the faster of the two.)

Next year in IndyCars he was pretty impressive. (Hiro might argue with me but...) His first win at Road America was impressive. Coming from 4th on the restart to pass all three Penske Panzers to take the lead into T1. Hold off Unser for the rest of the race. Next year was even more impressive. Winning the last real Indy 500 and becoming the first Canadian to win the 500 (PT was the second).

Pole position in his first GP and almost winning the thing until a oil hose came loose. Winning his first GP in only his 4th race holding of Schumacher. His pass of Schumacher on the outside in the last turn in Portugal still is one of the most amazing passes I have ever seen. I was thrilled when he won the title even after getting mugged by that pointy-chinned, dirty, cheating bastart. (thanks TB! :D ) Austria last year he drove a stormer passing more cars than anyone else.

Oh well. There are only three people in the world that really know what happened: Richards, Pollock and JV. The rest of us keyboard jockeys are just speculating.

Merci pour les mémoires Jacques!

Ed_Severson

10-10-03, 01:00 PM

The only quote that refers to this weekend in that article that didn't come directly from the mouth of David Richards was this one ...

" 'Jacques is disappointed,' Pollock said. 'He simply felt that his heart would not be in it.' "

Nowhere in that article does anybody other than David Richards say that it was Villeneuve's decision.

You're going to have to do better than that.

Dirty Sanchez

10-10-03, 01:07 PM

If you insist.

"Jacques is extremely disappointed not to be staying with the team next year and he simply felt his heart would not be in it for the coming weekend," Pollock said.

"We are grateful to the team for releasing him early from his contract."

I couldn't find the article... but I copied and pasted it over at crapwagon.com if you want to see it.

Linky-link-link (http://cartfanatics.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=10408&perpage=20&pagenumber=1)

Ed_Severson

10-10-03, 01:16 PM

And yet again, there is no quote from anyone other than David Richards stating that Villeneuve asked to be released from that contract.

" 'We are grateful to the team for releasing him early from his contract.' " could just as easily be a media-friendly was of saying "thank God we don't have to drive that turd this weekend."

The truth of the matter is that it's entirely conceivable that Villeneuve was willing to drive the last race, but found it a relief not to have to do so when the team informed him that they didn't want him in Japan.

You simply don't know, but you have no trouble assuming the worst. I guess it's easy sitting behind a keyboard and pretending you know what you don't.

jonovision_man

10-10-03, 01:22 PM

Originally posted by Ed_Severson
And yet again, there is no quote from anyone other than David Richards stating that Villeneuve asked to be released from that contract.

Richards is the team principal... who are you waiting for? Can't go much higher on the BAR ladder than Richards, and he is saying in no uncertain terms that Jacques asked, the team complied.

jono

Ed_Severson

10-10-03, 01:29 PM

I'm well aware of David Richards' location on the BAR organizational chart, thank you very much. :saywhat:

That's the point. He has enormous incentive not to tell the truth if they asked Villeneuve to sit this one out. Until I see a direct quote from somebody who is a credible source and not in any way employed by the team, I'm not buying into what Richards says without reservation.

In any good public argument, there are two sides to the story, and the truth is almost always in between. Some here are operating under the assumption that one version of the story is 100% accurate, because it's what best suits whatever point they're trying to make.

All I'm saying is that before it bears any creedence with me, I'd like to see some independent sources verify the "truth" that you're trying to cram down my throat. Thus far there have been zero.

Dirty Sanchez

10-10-03, 01:40 PM

Be sure to let us know when NPR breaks the story, ok? :laugh:

jonovision_man

10-10-03, 01:40 PM

Originally posted by Ed_Severson
I'm well aware of David Richards' location on the BAR organizational chart, thank you very much. :saywhat:

That's the point. He has enormous incentive not to tell the truth if they asked Villeneuve to sit this one out. Until I see a direct quote from somebody who is a credible source and not in any way employed by the team, I'm not buying into what Richards says without reservation.

In any good public argument, there are two sides to the story, and the truth is almost always in between. Some here are operating under the assumption that one version of the story is 100% accurate, because it's what best suits whatever point they're trying to make.

All I'm saying is that before it bears any creedence with me, I'd like to see some independent sources verify the "truth" that you're trying to cram down my throat. Thus far there have been zero.

The two sides are Pollock and Richards, and so far they're singing the same tune.

I see no reason to doubt them, there's no harm to Richards to tell the truth if it's different from the story he's telling.

jono

Ed_Severson

10-10-03, 01:46 PM

Pollock hasn't said anything that verifies Richards' claims.

That's the entirety of my point.

If at some point he, or Villeneuve, comes out and says "yeah, it was Jacques' request not to drive," then it's a different story.

Until then, I'm not buying it. Laugh all you want if it makes you feel better about yourself. ;)

jonovision_man

10-10-03, 01:56 PM

Originally posted by Ed_Severson
Pollock hasn't said anything that verifies Richards' claims.

That's the entirety of my point.

If at some point he, or Villeneuve, comes out and says "yeah, it was Jacques' request not to drive," then it's a different story.

Until then, I'm not buying it. Laugh all you want if it makes you feel better about yourself. ;)

From AtlasF1 (it's a pay site):

http://www.atlasf1.com/news/thread.php/id/4289/.html#11937

Villeneuve's manager, Craig Pollock, explained: "Jacques is extremely disappointed not to be staying with the team next year, and he simply felt that his heart would not be in it for the coming weekend. As a result he asked that he be allowed to stand down. We are grateful to David Richards, and the team, for releasing him early from his contract."

jono

Ed_Severson

10-10-03, 01:59 PM

Fair enough. I will now reiterate my previous statement:

So ****ing what?

He's earned the right to choose to sit out one race. If it was important to the team that he raced in Japan, they would have refused, and he'd either be there now or they'd be suing him.

Either way, it takes nothing away from what he's accomplished in a racing car. Why beating him down for this is a high point for some of you is mystifying.

jonovision_man

10-10-03, 02:03 PM

Originally posted by Ed_Severson
Fair enough. I will now reiterate my previous statement:

So ****ing what?

He's earned the right to choose to sit out one race. If it was important to the team that he raced in Japan, they would have refused, and he'd either be there now or they'd be suing him.

Either way, it takes nothing away from what he's accomplished in a racing car. Why beating him down for this is a high point for some of you is mystifying.

I wasn't impressed that he walked away, but he hasn't been treated well by Richards so it was probably fair.

jono

Ed_Severson

10-10-03, 02:08 PM

"I wasn't impressed that he walked away, but he hasn't been treated well by Richards so it was probably fair."

Exactly. Regardless of whether Jacques asked out or not, this is exactly what Richards wanted. His boohooing in the press about having to go to the trouble of racing Sato at Suzuka is a load of garbage.

I would have preferred Villeneuve stayed and raced the hell out of the car, then told the team to stick it when he got back to the garage. But maybe it's best for everybody that he doesn't race this weekend, and maybe he didn't want to spend three more days answering questions about whether this will or will not be his last race in F1.

He's had a rough year. I can't blame him for wanting to go home early and let it go.