View Full Version : Kenny Brack.
God I hope he's ok. It doesn't look good at all.
Chitowncartfreak
10-12-03, 05:28 PM
Dear God, please say this isn't as bad as it looks. I hate this crap.:( Brings back horrible memories of Jeff Krosnoff.
That was bad. God be with KB. :(
Audi_A4
10-12-03, 05:35 PM
I hope he is OK ....
devilmaster
10-12-03, 05:39 PM
prayers and hopes.
I hate racing when this happens. :(
Steve
I surfed over just in time to see it.
God I hope he's ok.
:(
TKGAngel
10-12-03, 05:45 PM
Thoughts and prayers are with Kenny right now.
Chitowncartfreak
10-12-03, 05:53 PM
Good news - he's awake and alert in the care center!
RaceGrrl
10-12-03, 05:53 PM
I'm praying that he's ok too. :(
Chitowncartfreak
10-12-03, 05:57 PM
Sounds like he has multiple fractures, but it sounds like it is not a life-threatening situation.
TKGAngel
10-12-03, 05:57 PM
Originally posted by Chitowncartfreak
Good news - he's awake and alert in the care center!
And according to Jerry Punch, with multiple fractures.
Keep in mind that the IRL has a history of painting the rosiest picture possible. He still can use our prayers.
Chitowncartfreak
10-12-03, 06:07 PM
Originally posted by Badger
Keep in mind that the IRL has a history of painting the rosiest picture possible. He still can use our prayers.
Yep, I'm still praying. Even if it is no longer a life-threatening situation, I'm concerned over the nature of his fractures. It sounds like they are serious. Anytime a driver takes a hit like that, you have to be concerned.
RaceGrrl
10-12-03, 06:07 PM
Ummm, multiple fractures can be life-threatening, depending on where they are. It's WAY too early for anyone (Bob Jenkins, et al) to be making comments about the nature of his injuries. Only a statement from the docs will make me feel more comfortable about this.
Chitowncartfreak
10-12-03, 06:14 PM
Originally posted by RaceGrrl
Ummm, multiple fractures can be life-threatening, depending on where they are. It's WAY too early for anyone (Bob Jenkins, et al) to be making comments about the nature of his injuries. Only a statement from the docs will make me feel more comfortable about this.
Good point. Easy to get a false sense of security when someone reports what sounds like good news. Still is a serious situation.
It is absolutely a serious situation, but the good news is that, at least for now, he's being listed in serious condition versus critical. That's good news!!! :)
I didn't see it. What happened? :confused:
RaceGrrl
10-12-03, 06:24 PM
Scheckter and Brack got together, Brack got airborne and into the catchfencing. Disintegrated the car, and the tub landed outside the track, upside down, I believe. Horrible accident. Crapwagon has some links to the video, but I will not link them here. I can't bear to see it again.
Chitowncartfreak
10-12-03, 06:25 PM
Originally posted by rabbit
I didn't see it. What happened? :confused:
Going into turn 3, Scheckter and Kenny touched wheels. Kenny's car went airborne and flipped wildly into the outside retaining fence. Basically, the only thing left of the car was the tub. It was similar to Krosnoff's accident and Bobby Allison's accident at 'dega.
Originally posted by rabbit
I didn't see it. What happened? :confused:
KB touched Shecktars right side at the rear and his Dallara caught air and when into the catch fence. The car spun around in the fence a few times ripping most everything off it. The only thing left was the tub which came off the fence on it's side spinning wildly. Thank God no one coming up on the accident hit him. The fencing was destroyed with assorted parts caught in it. Very ugly. :(
devilmaster
10-12-03, 06:39 PM
Video is available from another forum...
WARNING: This is a nasty crash. I post it only because people will want to know what happened. Those who know me, know I never relish an accident.
http://tbk.fameflame.dk/videos/Kenny_Brack-2003_IRL_IndyCar_Series_at_Texas.mpg
Steve
Holy *%&$!!! :eek:
Everyone keeps saying Krosnoff, but that reminded me of Greg Moore's, the way the car kept flipping and spinning.
Dear God I hope he's ok. :(
And before anybody tries to make this into a CART vs. IRL thing, that accident could have just as easily been CART at Fontana.
RaceChic
10-12-03, 07:07 PM
I sat here and watched that clip. I am filled with a wide variety of emotions right now.
I am filled with sadness. I hope and pray for Kenny Brack to be okay. I hope and pray that his friends, family and crew find the strength to deal with this. :(
I am filled with sadness as I remember two tragic events for me in racing........
I was there when Krosnoff died in Toronto at the Molson Indy. It happened right in front of me. It shook me up from within. I will never forget that. :(
I am filled with sadness as I remember my fellow Canadian, Greg Moore. I miss you Greg, and think of you often. Keep winning those championships in heaven and say, "Hi" to Ayrton Senna for us. :( :)
Please get well soon, Kenny...... :thumbup:
Lizzerd
10-12-03, 07:23 PM
If Kenny hadn't gotten airborne, that crash had Gordon Smiley 1982(3?) at Indy written all over it, and we would all be writing eulogies right now. Gordon's was the worst crash I've ever seen, but Kenny's ranks right up there in the top five. Thank the good Lord that he is alive (so we are told).
Get well soon, Kenny.
Assuming Kenny comes out of this more or less in one piece, the worst part about it is that unless the Earl changes their formula and continues to run on tracks that promote this side by side slot car crap, another wreck like this or worse will happen again. It's not a matter of if, it is when.
Just like Atlanta.
You're right Dave. About now I would love to have all the Goobers that salivate over that "close, side by side pack racing" bullcrap strapped into cars of their own and let them do it.
Jonezzy_33
10-12-03, 07:40 PM
I'm really sick to my stomach right now. I can not remember seeing Greg or Jeff's accidents even though I know I watched it. I watched that clip and I can't shake it from my head. Damn I hope he's okay. Kenny's always been a good guy.
Thoughts and prayers to him and his family :(
Andrew Longman
10-12-03, 07:40 PM
Prayer are with him.
Gil and Dario getting out it time.
Great for the ratings I'm sure :(
Gil looked very unhappy getting out of the car.
Too much downforce. Too litte power. If KB is as "fine" as IRL reports have it, they dodged another one.
I don't mind oval racing, just not this kind.
Stop the madness.
WickerBill
10-12-03, 07:43 PM
Originally posted by DaveL
Assuming Kenny comes out of this more or less in one piece, the worst part about it is that unless the Earl changes their formula and continues to run on tracks that promote this side by side slot car crap, another wreck like this or worse will happen again. It's not a matter of if, it is when.
Problem is, Dave, "when" might be November 2 at Fontana. Too many rookies, etc...
devilmaster
10-12-03, 07:59 PM
Look, the truth of the matter here is, racing is inherently dangerous.
Anyone can die from a racing accident anywhere, at any time.
What you try to do is limit the chances that tragedy will strike.
What alot of us see, and what we are tip-toeing around, is that by racing open wheel cars, close together and side by side all the time on fast oval tracks, you generate more of a risk to having a tragedy.
If you see the replay, IMO, Kenny had a nose beside Tomas, and it looks like he tried to get closer to Tomas to keep the draft. They touched, Tomas is punted right, and kenny's car has nowhere to go but up.
Do alot of us pray for Kenny? Yes. Should we still question the risk involved in an all oval, close side by side action, open wheel racing series? Yes.
Lets put it this way. If Texas had truely sold out their seats, alot of fans would be injured if not worse tonite.
Just my 2 bits.
Steve
WickerBill
10-12-03, 08:05 PM
Just my two cents, devilmaster, but the "all the time" part is moot. It can happen if there's only one superspeedway. And I think the Krosnoff and Arvin families will tell you it doesn't even have to be a superspeedway.
You may be tiptoeing around something, but I'm not. Krosnoff didn't happen on an oval, but it was the exact same type of accident. It doesn't have to be "side by side", it doesn't have to be oval, it doesn't have to be anything except open wheels.
This armchair crew chief can't point a finger at the IRL on this in good conscience. Everyone knows the danger of driving OW cars next to other OW cars.
WB
devilmaster
10-12-03, 08:16 PM
Originally posted by WickerBill
but the "all the time" part is moot.
But thats what the IRL brags about. These super close finishes, wheel to wheel. Is it moot if thats what you bill your racing as?
Its the law of averages. Yes, it can happen on one superspeedway. And it doesn't have to happen on a oval. But when you race the way they do, you are upping the chances on having a major accident. NASCAR always talks about the big one at plate tracks, its expected.... and thats wrong.
I didn't say it cause I enjoy it. I didn't enjoy hanford for the same reason. If i enjoyed it, I'd probably watch plate racing from nascar and whoop it up when the big one happens. I dont.
I believe my point is still valid. A series that prides itself on this side by side, close racing action, is playing with fire. They got burned tonite. And I hope Kenny doesn't pay for the rest of his life for them.
Steve
Originally posted by WickerBill
Just my two cents, devilmaster, but the "all the time" part is moot. It can happen if there's only one superspeedway. And I think the Krosnoff and Arvin families will tell you it doesn't even have to be a superspeedway.
You may be tiptoeing around something, but I'm not. Krosnoff didn't happen on an oval, but it was the exact same type of accident. It doesn't have to be "side by side", it doesn't have to be oval, it doesn't have to be anything except open wheels.
This armchair crew chief can't point a finger at the IRL on this in good conscience. Everyone knows the danger of driving OW cars next to other OW cars.
WB Thanks WB, you said it way better than I did.
WickerBill
10-12-03, 08:21 PM
They brag about side by side racing. They don't brag about aerobatic cars.
Is it wrong for the NFL to brag about hard-hitting action when sometimes people get paralyzed?
Your post sounds like "they had it coming", or "serves them right". I hope you don't really feel that way. I doubt you do.
WB
FCYTravis
10-12-03, 08:25 PM
Rabbit, you're wrong and here's why:
The IRL formula ENCOURAGES such incidents because of the huge wings - NO CAR CAN ACTUALLY PASS ANOTHER CAR. Did you see Hornish and Dixon? Hornish should have had the pass made EASILY but because the cars suck when they're not drafting in a train Hornish got caught side by side with Dixon for about 10 laps.
It may make for a real great "show" but when you run 22 cars side by side inches apart for 300 miles, the law of averages is going to catch up real fast and you're going to have wheel-to-wheel contact. Someone's going to make a mistake and you're going to have a massive accident like this one. Doesn't matter what the driver skill is, it's a function of the racing being artificially close and the cars being artificially packed together.
It may not be "as exciting," but CART's formula allows cars to actually pass one another, and not get caught running side by fookin' side.
Chitowncartfreak
10-12-03, 08:30 PM
OK, here's my two cents on this issue. Safety in racing is not a "CART vs. IRL" thing - it is about racing as a whole. Accidents happen in racing - especially when you are dealing with open-wheel cars. We are fortunate that we no longer live in the days that Jackie Stewart and Mario Andretti witnessed where driver funerals took place every few races. We see many more happy endings, and the outcomes that befell Greg Moore, Gonzalo Rodriguez, and Scott Brayton(to name a few) are few and far between.
Cars getting airborne is an inherent risk of open-wheel racing. Today's cars are safer than ever before, and it is a testament to the strength of Kenny's car that he is speaking with his wife this evening. However, safety extends to more than just the drivers. Fan safety is equally important. Make all the jokes you want about the IRL and empty stands (something that I am guilty of), but I hate to think of what could have happened if there would have been people on the other side of that fence. Anyone who was at LeMans in 1955, or survived someone who was at LeMans in 1955, can answer that question.
Bragging about building a car that can withstand an impact like we saw today is similar to treating the symptoms of a sick person while the illness itself still exists. We've seen enough evidence lately that open-wheel cars have a tendency to get airborne. If this is an inherent risk of the sport, I challenge the sanctioning bodies to work to try to minimize this risk. The world we live in today is much more litigious than in 1955. If the worst case scenerio ever happened (a car flying into the stands), racing in America would cease to exist. While on the surface it may seem impossible to keep open-wheel cars from becoming airborne short of putting fenders on the cars, some of the safety innovations that we have today were outside the realm of imagination 10-20 years ago. Instead of treating this risk as a cost of doing business to have close wheel-to-wheel racing, the focus as a whole should be to work on minimizing the risk as much as possible.
Chitowncartfreak
Originally posted by WickerBill
Is it wrong for the NFL to brag about hard-hitting action when sometimes people get paralyzed?
It would be if NFL failed to address clear problems in their rules or the sport that made such injuries more likely than necessary.
Unfortunately, I agree that some people on both sides actually seem gloat over this kind of thing. It's one more tragedy of the split that we can't have a legitimate discussion about safety issues in open wheel racing without politics creeping into it.
Originally posted by FCYTravis
The IRL formula ENCOURAGES such incidents because of the huge wings - NO CAR CAN ACTUALLY PASS ANOTHER CAR. Did you see Hornish and Dixon? Hornish should have had the pass made EASILY but because the cars suck when they're not drafting in a train Hornish got caught side by side with Dixon for about 10 laps.
It may make for a real great "show" but when you run 22 cars side by side inches apart for 300 miles, the law of averages is going to catch up real fast and you're going to have wheel-to-wheel contact. Someone's going to make a mistake and you're going to have a massive accident like this one. Doesn't matter what the driver skill is, it's a function of the racing being artificially close and the cars being artificially packed together.
It may not be "as exciting," but CART's formula allows cars to actually pass one another, and not get caught running side by fookin' side.
That's my point. Thank you. And if CART put 1974 Eagle wings on their cars and had them race on high banks week in a week out I'd be just as critical of them.
devilmaster
10-12-03, 08:51 PM
Originally posted by WickerBill
Your post sounds like "they had it coming", or "serves them right". I hope you don't really feel that way. I doubt you do.
I took about a half hour to compose this long post to respond to your quote, wb.
In that time, a few people have posted, more or less what I wanted to say, so I threw that one away, and post this.
Basically its this. The IRL, imho, knows the inherent dangers of having cars run constantly side by side. They have set up their racing to do this. They beam with pride about their side by side racing. They knew, as we all do, and talk about constantly, is that this could happen. Could it happen in other series on any given day? Yes. But the IRL, with the style of racing they want, it ups the risk.
Am I gloating? No.
Am I saying, Told Ya so? No.
Am I saying, They had it coming? No.
Am I saying, Serves them Right? Hell No.
All i'm saying is, the risk is higher, they know it, and I doubt they will do anything to ensure that it doesn't happen again, because they want the racing that will ensure it happens again.
All my opinion, of course.
Steve
I just got home and saw the replays. Very nasty crash. A couple of things that I noticed:
His car took flight in a very similar way to Mario's and Wheldon's flights at Indy. A little air under the nose, and it launches up like a hydroplane boat. (I don't know how Helio ended up upside down in testing at Richmond, but I wonder if that was a third similar incident.) I'm not sure what you do about this.
Thank God the fencing kept the car in the stands. One of the oddities of Texas is that the chain link is on the spectator side of the fence posts rather than the track side. This was cited as one of the reasons that Davey Hamilton's car made such severe contact with the post itsself. (In Toronto, the same fence/post situation contributed to Jeff Krosnoff's crash.)
TMS claimed that this would allow the fence to absorb more, keeping the car out of the stands, although I'd think the fence would have more strength if the fencing was pushing on the poles, rather than pulling away from it. I don't know of any other tracks that have the fencing on the spectator side of the fence posts. Will they rehang the fencing to match every other race track in the world? Who knows. But, they should.
Hopefully Kenny will be okay. I still don't like the sound of things, but after seeing that race, I get the same strange feeling I did with Zanardi. I'm so glad to hear he's in serious condition with multiple fractures to his extremities. At least he's still here.
Get well soon, Kenny.
Originally posted by devilmaster
Video is available from another forum...
WARNING: This is a nasty crash. I post it only because people will want to know what happened. Those who know me, know I never relish an accident.
http://tbk.fameflame.dk/videos/Kenny_Brack-2003_IRL_IndyCar_Series_at_Texas.mpg
Steve
I wish the best for the man. This is bad news.
devilmaster - please do not direct link an mpeg to TBK-'s forum. Linking to a thread should be prefectly cool however.
Railbird
10-12-03, 11:22 PM
I am with WickerBill on this one, it's more of an openwheel problem than a formula deal imo.
and I am also amazed at JoeBob's revelation that the fences are hung on the wrong side of the pipes.
I was there this June and didn't notice but that is horrible for openwheel cars. Maybe a good trampoline for stock cars but not a good catch fence for openwheelers.
Treeface
10-13-03, 12:17 AM
I hope Kenny continues to be still there. :thumbup:
lateralus42
10-13-03, 12:39 AM
No one found it strange that there was only 15 laps or so left in the race and there was still a large pack of cars traveling toghether? That is what is wrong with that formula, the drivers are not allowed to pull away and give each other room. Now something like that could happen elsewhere, but the risks are minimized because passing opportunities happen quickly in CART and F1, the IRL at Texas is 100 times more dangerous, they are side by side with no room for error non stop throughout the entire race.
It is idiotic racing.
Originally posted by Railbird
I am with WickerBill on this one, it's more of an openwheel problem than a formula deal imo.
and I am also amazed at JoeBob's revelation that the fences are hung on the wrong side of the pipes.
I was there this June and didn't notice but that is horrible for openwheel cars. Maybe a good trampoline for stock cars but not a good catch fence for openwheelers.
The fence hans't changed since the track was built and Hamilton felt it contributed greatly to his injuries.
Originally posted by Railbird
and I am also amazed at JoeBob's revelation that the fences are hung on the wrong side of the pipes.
It isn't a revelation, it is old news. Here's an article from two years ago: http://www.reviewjournal.com/lvrj_home/2001/Oct-07-Sun-2001/sports/17170367.html (And the appropriate thread at TF: http://www.trackforum.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=11490 )
Irregardless of which side the fencing is on, you would have to be nutso to buy a ticket in the lower sections of a track during any open wheel race.
The promoter dodged a big black eye being that this happened on the back straight instead of the front. With as much material that ended up on the other side of the fence, those shards of carbon fiber would have had serious consequences if this would of happened just 8 seconds later.
Additionally, I think it was great to have a traveling medical team there yesterday. I don't know if they did a better job than local trauma teams and paramedics would have done but, I like the chances for the drivers with a dedicated group.
According to these photo's, (link to Brack crash photos) (http://www.news-journalonline.com/03SpeedIndex.htm) he also struck right at one of the gates from the outside into the infield. Those support poles for those gates are probably twice as hard as the normal poles. Scary.
isn't the catch fencing going to give a good amount with a collision at that speed? i'm thinking if it does, then the side which the poles are on wouldn't matter b/c you'd be slamming that pole either way.
imo: i see it as a formula car thing b/c plenty of airborne cars have lead to deaths the past decade on road courses and ovals alike. the IRL is DFL in proactivity in prevention of such incidents though.
Originally posted by Ankf00
isn't the catch fencing going to give a good amount with a collision at that speed? i'm thinking if it does, then the side which the poles are on wouldn't matter b/c you'd be slamming that pole either way.
imo: i see it as a formula car thing b/c plenty of airborne cars have lead to deaths the past decade on road courses and ovals alike. the IRL is DFL in proactivity in prevention of such incidents though.
Yes, however if the fencing is pushing on the poles, the poles are also pushed back. The fence remains in contact with the poles. What happens with the "reverse system" is that the fencing is pulled away from the poles, so you have a pole, then a gap, then the fencing. It is a lot easier for the car to hit the pole in that situation.
Originally posted by JoeBob
Yes, however if the fencing is pushing on the poles, the poles are also pushed back. The fence remains in contact with the poles. What happens with the "reverse system" is that the fencing is pulled away from the poles, so you have a pole, then a gap, then the fencing. It is a lot easier for the car to hit the pole in that situation.
good point, didn't think of it that way
and espn.com still has video up :saywhat:
Racewriter
10-13-03, 01:43 PM
Originally posted by JoeBob
Yes, however if the fencing is pushing on the poles, the poles are also pushed back. The fence remains in contact with the poles. What happens with the "reverse system" is that the fencing is pulled away from the poles, so you have a pole, then a gap, then the fencing. It is a lot easier for the car to hit the pole in that situation.
It also puts the entire containment load (the force required to keep the car on the track side of the fence) on the fence attachment points, instead of spreading the load to the posts. Either way, it's not a good deal.
Personally, no matter what side of he pole the fencing is on, once an OW car gets up into the fencing to begin with, it's gonna be bad. Some just worse than others.
And a :thumbup: to the irl safety crew.
Chitowncartfreak
10-13-03, 09:21 PM
Originally posted by RTKar
And a :thumbup: to the irl safety crew.
I'll second that.:thumbup: :thumbup:
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