View Full Version : I'm angry
RaceGrrl
10-22-03, 07:33 PM
****If you think it is too soon after Renna's death to be angry, then don't read any further because the Grrl is going on a rant. ****
I am angry. Renna's death was senseless, and he died because of Tony George's arrogance, avarice and hunger for power. That is wrong on so many levels that I can't begin to comprehend it.
CART is not without its flaws. In fact, as we've seen by the loss and injury of our own, it's far from perfect. We've suffered losses, but each loss has taught us something.
I can't think of any other racing series where one man has done so much to harm so many, and with so little regard for improving safety. This season, above all others has shown us that Tony's league is NOT concerned with driver safety.
Is it too early to place blame? Maybe it is, but ultimately the IRL has been and will continue to be responsible for broken necks, broken backs and worse if something isn't done to put safety ahead of "The Show."
Methanolandbrats
10-22-03, 07:42 PM
Exactly right.
And the helicopter from one of the Indy tv stations showed that IMS crews were busily repairing the catch fencing so that the track could reopen and the carnage resume.
In Italy, at least, there would be the mandatory coroner's inquest into the death and evidence would be preserved and analyzed by non IMS/IRL parties.
I'm too angry to post how I really feel right now. I'll wait until I've had a chance to cool off.
Methanolandbrats
10-22-03, 08:20 PM
I'm so sick of this IRL ****. Clearly Tony has the coroner and police in his pocket too. And he has the same mentality as that moron who owns Texas. The IRL is willing to throw drivers away like used tires and they don't seem to care too much about fan safety either. And no, this is not too harsh, look at the IRL injury record. If not for a few twists of fate, they could have killed dozens by now. And no it is not a time for mourning, it is a time for massive outrage at the bull**** Tony George has tried to shove down the throats of racefans and his endangerment of drivers and fans. Think about it. A single car turns into a low-flying airplane and takes out the catch fence and stands. Ya think there's a problem. :mad:
It makes me angry too. I don't know that I'd blame arrogance, avarice and hunger for power, but I do know that the writing was on the wall for this accident.
When Jeff Krosnoff, Greg Moore, and Gonzalo Rodriguez (and even Alex Zanardi) had their horrible crashes, I was sad. But, I was comforted by the idea that their accidents were the one-in-a-million, everything that could go wrong, went wrong accidents. If anybody knew what damage that lamppost, or that access road, or that single row of tires could cause, they would have fixed it sooner. It was something none of us had ever seen before.
Renna is different. Before today, we'd seen four IRL cars take flight, three of them into track fencing. Those who wanted to discuss it were labeled as people with agendas, and the problems were written off as unique occurances. We knew something horrible could happen, and hoped that something would be done before it did.
The only comfort I have today is the thought that if there was an easy solution, it would already be in place. Fixing this problem will take creativity, and perhaps a lot of money. And, I have no doubt that the fix will happen. The IRL can't afford for it not to.
I'm trying to save my anger for another day. The people who can make things change are still with us, and I can be angry with them some other time. Right now, Tony's friends and family need our support as they deal with a horrible tragedy.
Racewriter
10-22-03, 08:40 PM
Originally posted by pchall
And the helicopter from one of the Indy tv stations showed that IMS crews were busily repairing the catch fencing so that the track could reopen and the carnage resume.
That's bad.
Railbird
10-22-03, 08:49 PM
They weren't fixing the catch fence to resume testing, if anything they were removing evidence before a proper investigation could be conducted with the results possibly being used to determin exactly what happened.
Todays problem was a replay of Mario's deal in May with the difference being that Mario's trajectory was more parallel to the catch fence while Renna's was closer to 90 degrees.
With the large wings used by the IRL everywhere, and Indy being the one place they can trim them out, it takes very little nose lift to first, stall the wing and lose the downforce, and then with another degree or two of lift they become planks biting into the wind.
CART risked this very same thing this past season when they mandated the road course aero package at Germany to save a couple bucks in transportation cost.
If you're gonna run high speed ovals you need to run the super speedway package with the very small wings.
Even then, nothing is guaranteed.
RIP Tony
thoughts and prayer to his family and friends
Twisty Bits
10-22-03, 09:24 PM
Originally posted by pchall
And the helicopter from one of the Indy tv stations showed that IMS crews were busily repairing the catch fencing so that the track could reopen and the carnage resume.
I read this on another forum and my sadness turned to rage.
Sorry folks, but I wanted to start an angry thread at 1 PM.
If I may have come off insensitive on another forum, I apologize. I have been a bit desensitized after Greg's crash. I send my condolences to Tony's family. I'm a mess.
To me, the biggest problem we have now is the unfortunate identity crisis that the average Joe American has in differentiating an irl car from a Champ car.
They Can't.
So average Joe potential fan is watching open wheel cars going into the fences, penetrating them and then thinking to himself, "I wouldn't want to be at that track in those seats" The earl has got a serious fan safety issue currently. If there is video, which I'm sure there is, and it gets out, there's gonna be a lot of folks that will think twice about attending an open wheel race if they had ever thought about it in the first place. From what I heard, part of Renna's car ended up in the short chute walkway area. I hope someone at Cart can be PC enough to make a public statement that not only expresses sympathy for Renna, his family, TCGR and the irl family but also distances Cart away from the incident citing Carts unusually good safety record, safety design inovations and then encourages the irl to exhaust all avenues until the reasons for these airborne incidents is found. This has the potential to be damaging to Cart as well as the irl.
doppelganger
10-22-03, 09:40 PM
Thank you RaceGrrl for posting what many of us are feeling today. There are those who will disagree with you, but Tony George needs to take a good long look in the mirror. His greed is responsible for the death of a fine young man and we have every right to be angry as we mourn.
Originally posted by cart7
To me, the biggest problem we have now is the unfortunate identity crisis that the average Joe American has in differentiating an irl car from a Champ car.
They Can't.
So average Joe potential fan is watching open wheel cars going into the fences, penetrating them and then thinking to himself, "I wouldn't want to be at that track in those seats" The earl has got a serious fan safety issue currently. If there is video, which I'm sure there is, and it gets out, there's gonna be a lot of folks that will think twice about attending an open wheel race if they had ever thought about it in the first place. From what I heard, part of Renna's car ended up in the short chute walkway area. I hope someone at Cart can be PC enough to make a public statement that not only expresses sympathy for Renna, his family, TCGR and the irl family but also distances Cart away from the incident citing Carts unusually good safety record, safety design inovations and then encourages the irl to exhaust all avenues until the reasons for these airborne incidents is found. This has the potential to be damaging to Cart as well as the irl.
I understand your point, C7, but considering that they have kept the ABC/IMS video that proves conclusively that PT won the 2002 race under wraps while shuffling Barry Green out to pasture, I would be more than surprised if the crash video was shown anywhere.
Ever.
And as far as CART is concerned, the high road is the one to take with regard to this tragic loss.
And Grrl, thank you for reading my mind. (short read, I know ;) )
lone_groover
10-22-03, 10:45 PM
Can't blame you, Grrl.
Our sorrow for the death of a good young person is being contaminated by disgust and contempt. Tony Renna's memory deserves better - at least a little respect. But reading the kind of crap that shameless buttlick Turn 13 is posting at 7G is making a pure appreciation of the tragedy of Tony's passing impossible.
Here's my man's take on a man's death, on the day that the man died (probably deleted by the mods by now):
"I think the SAFER barrier is a pretty good example of at least trying to do something proactively, and at considerable expense.
As for the injury stats, it would appear that once one accounts for the difference in oval mileage the rates are not that far apart (injuries per oval mile) - assuming that the IRL runs at least twice as many oval miles, and that ovals are a significantly weighted cause of CART injuries. That's just an estimate, however, as I don't have the full stats.
The IRL is still far too accident-riven, though, I agree."
I wonder if Samuel Clemmons(sic) has a quote about decency?
If I hear him preach on safer one more time I'm gonna puke. Safer is worthless when the cars are disintegrating in the fencing 6 - 8 feet above them. :flame:
I agree Groover. Just an FYI, did you know that there are 13 Turns between his single-wide and Baghdad?
I knew that ya did.
Hope I'm wrong, but I don't think Renna will be the last.
I don't think you can design a safe open wheel car that can run on high bank ovals like Texas, and the IRL is going to continue doing that until Tony runs out of money.
"At 10:17 a.m. EDT, Renna's G Force/Toyota was entering turn 3 of his fourth test lap when it jumped sideways and went airborne. The car cleared the four-foot foam and concrete cushioning wall and crashed into the catch fence, where it was torn apart.
The racer's gearbox sailed into the grandstands. The cockpit tub, which holds the driver, became ensnared in the catch fence and was dangling with Renna in it.
The crash was so severe that the first layer of grandstands in the south chute was mangled. During races, the grandstands are set back from the fence and are occupied by handicapped patrons in their wheelchairs."
Fencing is fencing. You are grabbing at straws bemoaning the fact that they cleared out the mangled fencing. Did CART do any investigating when Moore died? No they finished the race. How much investigating do you suppose they needed to do? Sadly the IRL is finding out how thick poles are that bend and break, or pulverizse the car.
It's how the car got into the fencing is the issue. Sometimes people think and act like George wants these death and injuries.
Separate the issues. One is control of open wheel, which is NOT the issue at hand. The other is the issue of safety. Which is something we all care about. Do we always want to call the Crapwagons? Not if we care about the men who drive them.
RaceGrrl
10-23-03, 11:45 AM
Originally posted by FRANKY
Separate the issues. One is control of open wheel, which is NOT the issue at hand. The other is the issue of safety. Which is something we all care about. Do we always want to call the Crapwagons? Not if we care about the men who drive them.
You missed my rather obvious point. The issues cannot be separated for me. Because of Tony George, the IRL was started. The other issues are dominoes in a line, waiting to fall.
I am sorry for Renna's death. It was a senseless accident, but it may have been preventable. That's the shame of it. We've had an entire season of these types of airborne accidents and we still see that denial runs deep in Indy, and not Egypt.
In an Indianapolis Star story, Barnhart said this about the crash: "The hard part about a testing crash is you don't have (many) eyewitnesses or videos running. This could be a difficult one to put together. We know why Brack got airborne; he ran over another car," Barnhart said. "The same thing happened to Castroneves at Richmond (Va.) when he ran over Tony Kanaan." Link (http://www.indystar.com/print/articles/3/085694-9993-009.html)
Is Tony George directly responsible? No. The commanders of an army are not the ones pulling the trigger, yet they bear the responsibility for the losses of their men. Don't expect me to excuse that, and I will not hold Tony George blameless for this death.
Originally posted by RaceGrrl
You missed my rather obvious point. The issues cannot be separated for me. Because of Tony George, the IRL was started. The other issues are dominoes in a line, waiting to fall.
I am sorry for Renna's death. It was a senseless accident, but it may have been preventable. Is Tony George directly responsible? No. The commanders of an army are not the ones pulling the trigger, yet they bear the responsibility for the losses of their men.
One could easily blame FORD for providing providing engines in 1996. I don't blame John F Kennedy for the Apollo 1 deaths or Challenger deaths.
Sorry there are two issues, they can be separated. They should be. That's why the questioning the safety issues get scoffed at because people tend to think it's politics than living breathing concerned race fans.
RaceGrrl
10-23-03, 11:57 AM
Originally posted by FRANKY
Sorry there are two issues, they can be separated. They should be. That's why the questioning the safety issues get scoffed at because people tend to think it's politics than living breathing concerned race fans.
Maybe you can separate the two but I can't and won't, and this is MY rant. You will not change my mind.
Originally posted by FRANKY
[B You are grabbing at straws bemoaning the fact that they cleared out the mangled fencing. Did CART do any investigating when Moore died? No they finished the race. How much investigating do you suppose they needed to do? [/B]
Not only are You grasping at straws, you are once again comparing horseshoes to handgrenades. Renna's accident was in a testing session. Greg's was at the early stages of a race. And yes C^RT did something about it. Notice how that area was paved over the next time C^RT ran there?
Originally posted by mapguy
Not only are You grasping at straws, you are once again comparing horseshoes to handgrenades. Renna's accident was in a testing session. Greg's was at the early stages of a race. And yes C^RT did something about it. Notice how that area was paved over the next time C^RT ran there?
We are talking about timing. People are complaining about the removal of ripped up fencing a number of hours after the accident. They want full fledged scene of the crime investigation of the fence. The fence? The fence isn't even a suspect. CART didn't stop the race and investigate things any quicker than this fence issue.
Originally posted by FRANKY
We are talking about timing. People are complaining about the removal of ripped up fencing a number of hours after the accident. They want full fledged scene of the crime investigation of the fence. The fence? The fence isn't even a suspect. CART didn't stop the race and investigate things any quicker than this fence issue.
The big difference was the fact that there was nothing left to invesitgate with Greg's accident. There was plenty of video footage of the accident, unlike Renna's. Plus the fact that Greg's car became airborne because it hit the raised pavement whereas Renna's became airborne by itself. Again, totally different scenarios.
The other difference is that CART didn't erase skid marks, or remove other pieces of evidence. They left everything as it was, and just removed debris.
This, on the other hand...
http://www.indystar.com/images/pics2/image-085694-1605.jpg
Originally posted by mapguy
The big difference was the fact that there was nothing left to invesitgate with Greg's accident. There was plenty of video footage of the accident, unlike Renna's. Plus the fact that Greg's car became airborne because it hit the raised pavement whereas Renna's became airborne by itself. Again, totally different scenarios.
One could argue then that they knew there was a safety problem, had it on tape and continued. How callous and dangerous to the drivers. But I won't argue that. It's stupid.
Hours after Greg's accident, after the race I'm sure photos were taken. Skid marks measured. They never did determine if he brushed the wall etc.
How long after the accident did the take the fencing the rest of the way down? In reality what would be accomplished with it up longer than measurements and photos taken?
Straws. Non-issue. The car? That's something else.
Franky, I'm gonna go with grrl on this one. Here's why.
1. Yes, OW cars go airborne, lots of racing cars go airborne. The idea is to try and prevent this from happening within reason. That's where the earl has failed this year. No investigation at all after the Mario and Wheldon incidents at Indy. Hopefully, with cars penetrating catch fencing and spewing large pieces of debris into grandstands, somebody with a straight thinking head on his shoulders within the irl(if there is anyone like that) will pound some sense into the grandsons head and initiate a full investigation. THERE IS A PROBLEM.
2. Part of decreasing the odds of airborne cars is understanding why cars go airborne in the first place. In the case of OW racing, the biggest contributor is wheel to wheel or wheel to car contact. Running a racing series that keeps OW cars inches apart lap after lap after lap after lap is gambling with the devil. As RM stated in his latest article after the Brack crash, it's a miracle it hasn't happened more often. TG is continuing to run this highly dangerous form of racing even though the odds are eventually gonna run out. The driver and spectator blood will be on his hands when the next big one or ones happen.
3. As Railbird has pointed out, it's very possible that it's the size of the large front wings on the irl wagons that's giving enough initial lift to get the car up high enough for the air to get under the undertray and then airborne. 'bird suggested in another thread that they should be using the much smaller speedway wings at any of the larger tracks the series runs at. The problem is, smaller wings will lead to less downforce, higher speeds and a more difficult to drive car. At least the reduction in drag would keep drivers from getting stuck side by side lap after lap, but that will ruin the side by side racing the league is trying to sell itself on(rather unsuccessfully I might add). To me, the question at this point is, if the answer to preventing these airborne accidents is to make chassis changes that ruins the close racing the league is trying to sell, will TG have the guts to do it. We don't know that, but I fear he won't. His history of selfishness and stupidity makes me think it will lead him to diminish the current events and create a stop gap fix that won't really fix anything. Earl drivers have been getting injured at an alarming rate over the leagues 8 seasons and that hasn't changed much.
Originally posted by JoeBob
The other difference is that CART didn't erase skid marks, or remove other pieces of evidence. They left everything as it was, and just removed debris.
This, on the other hand...
http://www.indystar.com/images/pics2/image-085694-1605.jpg
Fuel?
It's not tire marks, those would be before the impact. In fact you can see the tire mark on the wall.
Blood.
JoeBob you are better than that. I have read your stuff.
Originally posted by FRANKY
One could argue then that they knew there was a safety problem, had it on tape and continued. How callous and dangerous to the drivers. But I won't argue that. It's stupid.
Hours after Greg's accident, after the race I'm sure photos were taken. Skid marks measured. They never did determine if he brushed the wall etc.
How long after the accident did the take the fencing the rest of the way down? In reality what would be accomplished with it up longer than measurements and photos taken?
Straws. Non-issue. The car? That's something else.
IRL cars getting airborne has been an issue for a while. What happened to Greg was a fluke. Richie Hearn spun off in the same area just before and nothing happened.
What killed Greg was when the car hit the barrier that was put down before the fence. That barrier was still there and the tub was not comprimised when it was moved. Now explain to me why:
1) IMS started to repair the damage to the fence and grandstands after the accident was cleaned up. Fontana was not owned by C^RT at that time, it was owned by NASCAR so you can't blame C^RT for that, as much as you would like to.
2) See JoeBob's post. Why is IMS trying to erase the skid marks before an investigation (if there will ever be one) is conducted?
Originally posted by FRANKY
Fuel?
It's not tire marks, those would be before the impact. In fact you can see the tire mark on the wall.
Blood.
JoeBob you are better than that. I have read your stuff.
You, unfortunately, are not. IMS should leave the site alone until an investigation is complete.
Originally posted by cart7
Franky, I'm gonna go with grrl on this one. Here's why.
1. Yes, OW cars go airborne, lots of racing cars go airborne. The idea is to try and prevent this from happening within reason. That's where the earl has failed this year. No investigation at all after the Mario and Wheldon incidents at Indy. Hopefully, with cars penetrating catch fencing and spewing large pieces of debris into grandstands, somebody with a straight thinking head on his shoulders within the irl(if there is anyone like that) will pound some sense into the grandsons head and initiate a full investigation. THERE IS A PROBLEM.
2. Part of decreasing the odds of airborne cars is understanding why cars go airborne in the first place. In the case of OW racing, the biggest contributor is wheel to wheel or wheel to car contact. Running a racing series that keeps OW cars inches apart lap after lap after lap after lap is gambling with the devil. As RM stated in his latest article after the Brack crash, it's a miracle it hasn't happened more often. TG is continuing to run this highly dangerous form of racing even though the odds are eventually gonna run out. The driver and spectator blood will be on his hands when the next big one or ones happen.
3. As Railbird has pointed out, it's very possible that it's the size of the large front wings on the irl wagons that's giving enough initial lift to get the car up high enough for the air to get under the undertray and then airborne. 'bird suggested in another thread that they should be using the much smaller speedway wings at any of the larger tracks the series runs at. The problem is, smaller wings will lead to less downforce, higher speeds and a more difficult to drive car. At least the reduction in drag would keep drivers from getting stuck side by side lap after lap, but that will ruin the side by side racing the league is trying to sell itself on(rather unsuccessfully I might add). To me, the question at this point is, if the answer to preventing these airborne accidents is to make chassis changes that ruins the close racing the league is trying to sell, will TG have the guts to do it. We don't know that, but I fear he won't. His history of selfishness and stupidity makes me think it will lead him to diminish the current events and create a stop gap fix that won't really fix anything. Earl drivers have been getting injured at an alarming rate over the leagues 8 seasons and that hasn't changed much.
1. I agree. But we the fans of autoracing don't know if there was or wasn't an investigation. Did the IRL get Dallera and Gforce to run aero tests on the cars while tilted up? I don't know.
2. I agree. The show must not go on with the same wheel to wheel action. It is wrong at NASCAR restrictor plate races, it was wrong with Handford races, it is wrong in Indy racing.
3. More agreement.
My point is well reasoned responses based on the reality of the situation rather than the FTG post split anger.
If they don't act on this accident simply because they want .0002 finishes than I will direct my disgust to the top for that reason, not because he takes a hammer to work everyday.
I don't think they can do nothing about their aero problems. I don't think they could even if they wanted to.
RaceGrrl
10-23-03, 01:07 PM
Originally posted by FRANKY
If they don't act on this accident simply because they want .0002 finishes than I will direct my disgust to the top for that reason, not because he takes a hammer to work everyday.
Tony George has been willing to live with broken backs and broken necks that have been caused by accidents in a poorly designed car. Why should we expect that this situation will be any different? He HAS been willing accept injuries as the cost of having "wheel to wheel" racing, and with Renna's death, the price just went higher.
Regardless of what you seem to think, as the IRL's hapless leader, TG does have the authority to demand an investigation of the cars' aero problems. Let's see if he has the brains. I pray that he does the right thing this time.
Originally posted by mapguy
IRL cars getting airborne has been an issue for a while. What happened to Greg was a fluke. Richie Hearn spun off in the same area just before and nothing happened.
What killed Greg was when the car hit the barrier that was put down before the fence. That barrier was still there and the tub was not comprimised when it was moved. Now explain to me why:
1) IMS started to repair the damage to the fence and grandstands after the accident was cleaned up. Fontana was not owned by C^RT at that time, it was owned by NASCAR so you can't blame C^RT for that, as much as you would like to.
2) See JoeBob's post. Why is IMS trying to erase the skid marks before an investigation (if there will ever be one) is conducted?
1. "At 10:17 a.m. EDT, Renna's G Force/Toyota was entering turn 3..."
5 - 6 hours later Channel 6? Flies over videotaping "raw" footage. Yes IMS started to repair the damage. Minutes later? Hours later.
2. Clean up wasn't for skid marks. Get a clue.
"if there will ever be one" :shakehead:
Your act is wearing thin FRANKY. :shakehead
racer2c
10-23-03, 01:13 PM
...and he's trying to discount speculative opinion with speculation of his own.
Originally posted by mapguy
Your act is wearing thin FRANKY. :shakehead
Oh well. I'm sorry but your statement
"I'm sorry your "Why is IMS trying to erase the skid marks before an investigation (if there will ever be one) is conducted? "
is just plain foolish.
Originally posted by FRANKY
Oh well. I'm sorry but your statement
"I'm sorry your "Why is IMS trying to erase the skid marks before an investigation (if there will ever be one) is conducted? "
is just plain foolish.
You don't use chemical agents to clean up fuel spills, you use kitty litter. What are they trying to clean up? It ain't a liquid.
As for being foolish, your act is getting more comical by the day. I would like to ask if you have heard of TrackForum, but I am sure you are very familiar with that place.
Goodbye lemming. Let's see if this "Ignore" feature will work.
devilmaster
10-23-03, 01:35 PM
Originally posted by FRANKY
Oh well. I'm sorry but your statement is just plain foolish.
Originally posted by FRANKY
2. Clean up wasn't for skid marks. Get a clue.
Pot, meet kettle.
:rolleyes:
Steve
Napoleon
10-23-03, 01:36 PM
Originally posted by JoeBob
The other difference is that CART didn't erase skid marks, or remove other pieces of evidence. They left everything as it was, and just removed debris.
This, on the other hand...
http://www.indystar.com/images/pics2/image-085694-1605.jpg
So? I have seen this done myself on street wrecks like the one a few years ago where a kid wrapped his car around the telephone pole at 4:14am in my front yard and was drawing his last breaths when I reached him. Two cops spent the next 4 hours taking picture and measurements of everything humanly possible while utility and clean up crews waited. By 9am you would never know someone who's body wasn't even cold yet had died in my front yard. If those pitures are taken 6 hours later it does not indicate that a complete investigation of the clues at the scene was not undertaken.
Even if they cleared the fence immediately so what. Thats not what killed him, and any structual engineer who finished with C's in college and had a slide rule in his front pocket could likely tell you in 10 minutes what the fence can take in the way of an impact before collapsing. The materials used in the fence have well know strength and elastic characteristics. This (the fence) isn't the space shuttle.
racer2c
10-23-03, 01:38 PM
One could look at the issue at hand from a higher level. There is no announced cause of death. The accident scene has been manipulated, possibly damaging instrumental clues as to the cause. The question is : Why?
Was there sufficient data collected after the accident? That remains to be seen. As of yet, IMS is not conveying a sense of resolve.
I gotta go with Nappy on this one. When was the last time you saw a crash site of any kind left completely intact until a full and complete investigation could reveal a definitive cause? I doesn't happen. Six hours is plenty of time to document the evidence.
racer2c
10-23-03, 01:58 PM
Comparing a street wreck where the streets being open in a reasonable amount of time is critical to the community and where the cause is more than likely known due to either witnesses or obvious conditions or both is not a good comparison.
An expensive formula race car, whose development is pure science is more adeptly compared to an aircraft accident in which the accident scene is off limits for days, sometimes weeks.
This was a closed race track, not an open highway.
In light of what Napoleon and rabbit have posted, and a Private Message I was sent, I'll withdraw my comment on the guy with the hose.
I still question the rest of the cleanup, but if the experts say they could have gotten what they needed, I'll listen to them.
Originally posted by mapguy
You don't use chemical agents to clean up fuel spills, you use kitty litter. What are they trying to clean up? It ain't a liquid.
As for being foolish, your act is getting more comical by the day. I would like to ask if you have heard of TrackForum, but I am sure you are very familiar with that place.
Goodbye lemming. Let's see if this "Ignore" feature will work.
Ahh the name calling. Always shows it's ugly head when a discussion is lost. So be it. Tire marks is off the map in conspiracy lala land
The crash was left to right in the picture. The skid marks were thataway-----> I would guess that what is in the other direction of the torn fence <----- would be young Renna's blood. It's a sad reality.
Kudos to WB for having the Ignore feature.
devilmaster
10-23-03, 02:11 PM
Originally posted by FRANKY
Ahh the name calling. Always shows it's ugly head when a discussion is lost.
Point of clarification.
Your rude 'get a clue' comment came way before the lemming comment.
Steve
Originally posted by devilmaster
Point of clarification.
Your rude 'get a clue' comment came way before the lemming comment.
Steve
It came after I told another member that "better than that" Map said "You, unfortunately, are not." and made a point of saying "Your act is wearing thin".
Schoolground stuff for sure. He didn't want to listen and he still doesn't. I'll give it a rest.
RaceGrrl
10-23-03, 02:25 PM
I thought that this thread might turn into a d**** waving contest at some point. But out of respect for me, would you guys wave them someplace else? :p
devilmaster
10-23-03, 02:30 PM
Originally posted by RaceGrrl
I thought that this thread might turn into a d**** waving contest at some point. But out of respect for me, would you guys wave them someplace else? :p
Well Fine!
[STOMPS OFF]
OWWWWW!
Hmmm. I gotta remember to tuck that in.
Steve
don't be doin' none of that stuff around Helio Steve. :eek: ;)
Originally posted by FRANKY
1. I agree. But we the fans of autoracing don't know if there was or wasn't an investigation. Did the IRL get Dallera and Gforce to run aero tests on the cars while tilted up? I don't know.
I really doubt it. The earl was very vocal before when they had problems and they found "so-called" solutions. The 97 Aurora's blew up spewing oil and water all over the rear tires causing many a driver to wind up in the wall with broken necks and concussions, they publicly announced that diaper assy they hung under the engine compartment. When the broken backs started snapping, they determined the transmissions were at fault and redesigned the attenuators at great public disclosure. The Safer wall was installed with great fanfare last year but it hasn't been installed at any of the other 15 tracks the irl runs on. There's obviously a problem with this new gen chassis, I have a feeling the lack of injury in the early accidents back in May gave the earl and TG an easy out to avoiding this problem. :shakehead
Originally posted by devilmaster
Well Fine!
[STOMPS OFF]
OWWWWW!
Hmmm. I gotta remember to tuck that in.
Steve
Just don't SLAM the door behind you. :p
I suspect there is no easy fix. You can't design open wheel cars that safely run side by side on a high bank oval.
Napoleon
10-23-03, 02:56 PM
Originally posted by racer2c
An expensive formula race car, whose development is pure science is more adeptly compared to an aircraft accident in which the accident scene is off limits for days, sometimes weeks.
I disagree, its exactly like a regular car wreck at least to the extent of crash site work that needs to be done. What other work do you need to do at the site other then cataloge what ends up where and what damage is done to surrounding property?
Quite frankly from what I observed from plane wrecks on TV is that the on site work isn't done any different from a car wreck. Is the site off limits for weeks? I have never heard of that at all. Is a plane wreck site off limits for days, well maybe but what do you expect when the site may contain hundreds of bodies, tons of debris and be burning from tens of thousands of gallons of fuel. It takes longer to pick that all up then it does a car which you can hook up to a tow truck. (by the way it seems to me that airports where wrecks have occured are open within a day or two of the wreck, which tells you the clean up is rapid). I can think of 3 prominent disasters in the last 10 years or so where the site was not treated like an off limits shrine for longer then it took.
In both the Lockerbie Scotland plane crash and Shuttle reenty explosion I recall them simply locating peices, logging there location and picking them up (in fact didn't they outfit people in the field in the shuttle investigation with GPS so they could log locations without the need for taking any measurements?) (admittedly Lockebie may not be a good example because of the fact it was in the water). In the case of the Twin Towers, when questions were raised of why they would have collopsed when the structual steel was treated to withstand fire they simply cleared the site and hauled the stuff to the Fresh Kills landfill on Staton Island.
Now if you are talking about how they may investigate this matter going forward I would agree it would be treated more like a plane crash, where they may reconstruct the vehicle and run engineering test on mock ups or on computer simulations, which is something that would be rare on a regular car crash. But there is nothing about that type of investigation that necessitates the crash site be treated as a shrine. In the Shuttle and Lackerbie examples the reconstruction was done in handgers some distance from the wrecks. In the Twin Towers case the investigators had to climb through the stuff in the land fill and used serial numbers on individual structual memebers to figure out where each piece was originally.
I suspect the real work that needs to be done will involve an rolling road wind tunnel with a half scale model of an IRL car. Hang the IRL if they don't take this step, not because they hosed down the track and removed some chain link fence 6 hours after an accident.
Originally posted by Napoleon
Hang the IRL if they don't take this step, not because they hosed down the track and removed some chain link fence 6 hours after an accident.
Well said.
Originally posted by Napoleon
I suspect the real work that needs to be done will involve an rolling road wind tunnel with a half scale model of an IRL car. Hang the IRL if they don't take this step, not because they hosed down the track and removed some chain link fence 6 hours after an accident. Bingo.
racer2c
10-23-03, 03:27 PM
I'm not hanging the IRL on anything other than what I already said. They, so far, and granted it's not long into the investigation, are not conveying the sense that any real investigation is even happening. Tony said "I'm sorry.", not "I'm sorry and we're getting to the bottom of this." At least as far as I know.
I'm not looking at this as an IRL thing, or even an IMS thing. I'm looking at it as a man died and there's been no explanation as to why. I know how and why the stranger on the corner died when his car went off the road though the very day it happened.
sundaydriver
10-23-03, 04:02 PM
I can't think of ONE good reason why IMS has to repair and clean up the area in question.
However, I can think of a ton of reasons why IMS should just leave the scene alone so tests and analysis can be done.
Grunschev
10-24-03, 02:58 PM
Originally posted by FRANKY
One could easily blame FORD for providing engines in 1996. I don't blame John F Kennedy for the Apollo 1 deaths or Challenger deaths.
Sorry there are two issues, they can be separated. They should be. That's why the questioning the safety issues get scoffed at because people tend to think it's politics than living breathing concerned race fans.
Straw man argument, anyone?
You say you could easily blame Ford. I'd like to hear this line of reasoning. If it's so easy, lay it on us. I could easily blame aliens, but it wouldn't make any sense.
You compare JFK's involvement on Apollo 1 and Challenger to TG's involvement with this crash. I will agree they are comparable if you can demonstrate to me that TG made no policy or operational decisions in the IRL for the last 25 years.
Think about what the word "politics" means: "The art or science of government or governing, especially the governing of a political entity, such as a nation, and the administration and control of its internal and external affairs." You suggest that the policies of TG and the IRL have nothing to do with safety. I disagree very much.
Originally posted by racer2c
One could look at the issue at hand from a higher level. There is no announced cause of death. The accident scene has been manipulated, possibly damaging instrumental clues as to the cause. The question is : Why?
Was there sufficient data collected after the accident? That remains to be seen. As of yet, IMS is not conveying a sense of resolve.
It depends on what you mean by "cause of death". Did the fence cause his death? I suppose, techinically, it did. I suggest, though, that this is a semantical distinction as the fence was not the cause of the accident. If the fence didn't cause the accident, what's the problem with repairing it, removing it, or painting it purple with pink stripes? I suggest the root problem lies in the car, not the fence.
Further, I don't think it is unreasonable that "conveying a sense of resolve" might not be readily visible so soon. Aerodynamic rules changes might show resolve, and they might take a few more days to hammer out. That said, based on TG's track record I won't be holding my breath on this one.
Igor
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