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Not sure where this should go, its a comment that is not reflective of any series.
Since we have seen two instances where an open wheel car has penetrated the catch fence I have to wonder if conventional wisdom regarding fence design is erroneous. Granted these were extreme accidents but both Brack and Renna demolished the fences. Would have been the same had it been a Lola or a Reynard, I'll bet. While I will leave others to determine the reasons why these accidnets happened I certainly hope someone takes a hard look at catch fencing. Indy was beefed up when NASCAR came to the track and it still wasn't sufficient to stop Renna. I would hate to think about a stock car getting launched into a fence at Indy or nearly anywhere else. Bodine's accident at Daytona in the truck race shows a fence working but the angle of impact was extremely shallow, unlike Renna's I think.
thoughts?
RaceGrrl
10-22-03, 09:54 PM
Is it even possible to create fencing that would stop all cars all the time? I think you have to do your best to prepare for all eventualities, but there is always going to be that freak accident that you can't predict.
Railbird
10-22-03, 09:56 PM
From what I've seen and heard today from IMS, while the fencing itself failed, the cables held. I believe they would have held most of a cup car in the ballpark.
An Indy car is a different matter altogether in that it will disintegrate with parts and pieces exploding away from the point of impact.
No easy answers here imo.
at least not once the car launches, which another matter all together.
I agree - I do not think there is any sort of easy solution here. If you build more solid walls, will that in turn increase the opportunity for greater peril to the drivers? At an airborn 220MPH I doubt that much could be done to prevent this tragic incident nor Kenny Brack's similar event. Does the IRL need to take a serious look at the overall safety of the car? Hell yes. Would this have happened in any other vehicle airborne at this speed? I would say yes....
What needs to be looked at is overall speed.
Ziggy
Good points all. IMO, a cup car getting that much air, even coming in straight at the fence would kick the living bejesus outta the driver and remain largely intact, for the most part.
An openwheel car however becomes a missile, and I have no idea how you would contain it, especially as 'Bird points out that they scrub energy by exploding.
Fenster
10-22-03, 10:34 PM
I am not sure that there is an easy answer here either. Like you said, you cannot prevent the freak accidents. F1 Australia 2002 comes to mind among others. However, I think that the fact that these cars are getting airborn is the things they need to answer for.
One note about the fence: in the overheads I saw on ESPN, it looks as if one of the support beams/bars that braces the fence was very badly damaged (bent at a huge angle). In Brack's shunt, they said (and you can clearly see for yourself) that most of the damage was caused by a support bar. It is also what killed Krosnoff I believe. Anyway... maube this was the result of a violent imapct with one of those bars in the fence. None-the-less, for a car to make it thorugh the fence and cause damage to the grandstand is very scary.
A sad event all the way around.
--Fenster.
From a couple of those overhead shots on the posted links, at least one of the support posts appeared to be bent badly and sheared off at the base. It looks like the pole bent, then broke(probably the part that killed Tony) then the fragmented car went over the fence striking the front railing on the walkway in the short chute. Thats pretty scary because that walkway in that area is a little further away from the fencing than in my seats over in J stand and in other areas at the track. Had that happened there, the car would have easily gone 3 -4 rows deep. :eek:
I'll be curious to see how ISC responds to this if at all.
This story has a description of what happened, and what landed where: http://sports.yahoo.com/irl/news?slug=irldriverrennadead&prov=st&type=lgns
Fenster
10-22-03, 11:53 PM
"...The cockpit tub, which holds the driver, became ensnared in the catch fence and was dangling with Renna in it."
Good God man! What an absolutely wrenching description. I cannot imagine the site.:(
--Fenster.
Originally posted by Fenster
"...The cockpit tub, which holds the driver, became ensnared in the catch fence and was dangling with Renna in it."
Good God man! What an absolutely wrenching description. I cannot imagine the site.:(
--Fenster.
just the kind of information to help settle breakfast :eek:
Corner5
10-23-03, 10:53 AM
I just want to know why they are flying. Mario, Kenny ,now Tony. I saw the pictures of the tire marks where Renna's car hit the cement barrier. The car was so far in the air,the black marks barely touched the top of the wall. This is probably why the catch fence is failing. I always thought the fence was for flying debris and not necessarily to catch whole cars flying at a high rate of speed.:confused:
Originally posted by Corner5
I just want to know why they are flying. Mario, Kenny ,now Tony.
Actually, it was Mario, then Dan Wheldon, then Helio, then Kenny, and now Tony. :(
JLMannin
10-23-03, 12:39 PM
Originally posted by JoeBob
Actually, it was Mario, then Dan Wheldon, then Helio, then Kenny, and now Tony. :(
You are forgetting Davey Hamilton. He took flight last season at Texas.
I think it's necessary to separate the cars flying because of:
A) Wheel to wheel contact
B) Slight change in car attitude.
We've seen all formula cars fly like a falling leaf from wheel to wheel contact (Christian Fittipaldi in F1, an Indy Lights car at Cleveland a few years back). Any formula car that is presented to the wind an a high angle of attack will lift.
HOWEVER, we've seen some IRL cars lift with a seemingly small change in attitude: Mario-Andretti-at-Indy-style. This is a new phenomenon in formula cars as I understand it, and something that should be studied.
Originally posted by RichK
an Indy Lights car at Cleveland a few years back
That was Trevor Seibert.
RobGuru
10-23-03, 12:50 PM
Originally posted by Fenster
"...The cockpit tub, which holds the driver, became ensnared in the catch fence and was dangling with Renna in it."
Good God man! What an absolutely wrenching description. I cannot imagine the site.:(
--Fenster.
There are other quotes in the story that are equally disturbing, which I will not repeat here. Suffice to say, this could've been much worse if it were a race weekend rather than a practice day.
I'll also add that ALL formula car drivers take their chances willingly that wheel-to-wheel contact is going to send them for a ride. I've personally experienced it, and left a tire mark on another driver's helmet. Thankfully we all came out okay (our cars didn't).
It's an entirely different animal when you are taking your chances with a possible car design flaw. The driver is NOT in control of this chance-taking as he is with wheel-to-wheel contact, and I'm sure that's freaking out many a driver right now.
Originally posted by RichK
I think it's necessary to separate the cars flying because of:
A) Wheel to wheel contact
B) Slight change in car attitude.
We've seen all formula cars fly like a falling leaf from wheel to wheel contact (Christian Fittipaldi in F1, an Indy Lights car at Cleveland a few years back). Any formula car that is presented to the wind an a high angle of attack will lift.
HOWEVER, we've seen some IRL cars lift with a seemingly small change in attitude: Mario-Andretti-at-Indy-style. This is a new phenomenon in formula cars as I understand it, and something that should be studied.
However, we've also seen cars fly due to wheel to wheel contact, without "blowing over" or taking off like an airplane. (See the Tagliani/Haberfeld crash at Road America, for example.)
Originally posted by JoeBob
However, we've also seen cars fly due to wheel to wheel contact, without "blowing over" or taking off like an airplane. (See the Tagliani/Haberfeld crash at Road America, for example.)
Yes we have. IMO, there's a critical point with every "flight" where the speed of the car & the angle of attack need to be above certain points. For instance, if you are going 40mph in the pit lane and jump a wheel, I'd bet that the car could be presented flat to the wind without it creating lift to overcome the weight of the car. Conversely, driving 210mph, the angle necessary for lift is going to be lower.
I'm guessing that Ralf Schumacher jumping Barrichello's wheels in Australia this year was below the necessary speed to take flight. He certainly seemed to have the angle of attack at first. Had this happened mid-straight at Monza, it might've been different.
Car design comes in here, and I don't know enough about different cars to say anything......but Mario's flight was unacceptable to me. Something seems inherently wrong about why his car took to the air.
Fenster
10-23-03, 10:20 PM
Originally posted by mapguy
That was Trevor Seibert.
Alex Figge last year at Cleveland as well.
--Fenster.
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