18 cars not etched in stone

[Ziggy]

From what I heard when I was in California, the 18 car grid is not a requirement anymore. That deal was with some of the tracks. Read into that what you may. Could be the one of the reasons for the Trueman jetison. (obviously, in my case spelling was not required either)They are trying to figure out if the public would by into 15 or 16 cars.

Trying to keep track, and I have a scorecard!

Ziggy

[Don Quixote]

Its hard to imagine that a 15 car vs an 18 car field would affect attendence or television ratings. On a road course it would be hard to tell the difference. On an oval, maybe the racing would be better if the moving chicanes were removed. I would prefer 22 to 24 cars, but at this point 15 or 16 cars would be just peachy.

[fourrunner]

I've never figured out the difference between 15 cars starting a race and 8 finishing, or 22 cars starting a race and 8 finishing.

At what point is the customer getting his moneys worth?

As stated, on a road / street course you don't really notice as much.

On an Oval the attrition is based on parts failure, or crashing. And I know the contracts aren't guaranteeing a minimum amount of crashes!

[RichK]

Originally posted by fourrunner
And I know the contracts aren't guaranteeing a minimum amount of crashes!

Don't give the lurking IMS folks any ideas! :gomer:

[pchall]

Originally posted by fourrunner
I've never figured out the difference between 15 cars starting a race and 8 finishing, or 22 cars starting a race and 8 finishing.



The first GP I attended had 18 cars start, and 6 of those were F2s.

[Railbird]

A short field, within reason, won't hurt the concrete canyons but might make for a long lap-to-lap wait at Elkhart Lake. Milwaukee will look a little short but Fontana will appear empty, which is just another reason to abandon the cookie cutters.

"All in all", considering the overall state of American openwheel racing, it's something I can live with as long as the green flag falls.

[nrc]

With so many deals in the dumper I'm not surprised if the car count requirement has gone with them. But it seems like Long Beach and the Canadian races would also have some kind of number.

[Dr. Corkski]

A lower car count would be OK as long as the cars lost aren't the ones belonging to talented drivers.

[Turn7]

Well, I am a proponent of car count. The more the better!

I think the problem with no passing opportunities is derived from low car count and the crowds and tv numbers have gone down as the car count has diminished.

The wankers in the back 1/3 of a 25-30 car field are the ones that get in the way and set up passing opportunities. With 15-18 cars on track, the lapped traffic is not a factor because there just aren't that many out there. Plus, the teams that remain are the "strongest" and most competent and there for the "wanker" factor is reduced.

I would rather watch a full field of turbo charged atlantics than a hand full of champ cars circulate the track.

[cart7]

Maybe they could fill the field with Silvercrowns? ;)

[jonovision_man]

ALMS runs different classes at the same time, as far as I know nobody's doing that in OW right now but it's happenned in the distant past.

In fact, Max Mosley (FIA) suggested running F3000 cars with F1 when F1 car count was looking like it was going to be an issue. The decision instead was that they'd run 3-car teams in F1 if car count ever got too low.

I could see a "class" in Champcars where they use lower bhp engines or something, literally a spec class. Could be interesting.

jono

[racer2c]

Originally posted by Turn7


I would rather watch a full field of turbo charged atlantics than a hand full of champ cars circulate the track.


:thumdown:

[racer2c]

Originally posted by jonovision_man


I could see a "class" in Champcars where they use lower bhp engines or something, literally a spec class. Could be interesting.

jono

:thumdown:

[JLMannin]

Originally posted by cart7
Maybe they could fill the field with Silvercrowns? ;)

Ahh, the last USAC gold crown race held outside of Marion County, Indiana (until the Mickey Mouse 200 in 1996). That was the 1980 Pocono 500, right?

[jonovision_man]

Originally posted by racer2c
:thumdown:

Care to elaborate?

Works well in ALMS, even when a given class has only a handfull of cars, you have a track buzzing with cars.

jono

[RichK]

Originally posted by jonovision_man
Care to elaborate?




IMO, you shouldn't mix classes of open wheel cars. Too much speed differential is not a good thing with exposed tires.

[Tim]

I won't go if there are 15-16 cars on the grid. Thats gonna make for a pretty boring weekend. Wait a minute I can drink beer at Milwaukee and RA this year....

[Turn7]

Originally posted by RichK
IMO, you shouldn't mix classes of open wheel cars. Too much speed differential is not a good thing with exposed tires.

In Miami this year the pole for Atlantics would have started on the third row of the champ car race.

On a few of the slow city street tracks, this could be accomplished without being that much a difference in speed.

I don't like the idea of doing it but, there could be occasions where it would be possible.

The biggest road block is the size difference between the two classes and what would happen if they tangled. I really wouldn't want to be an Atlantics driver going up against a champ car in a crash.

[cart7]

Originally posted by JLMannin
Ahh, the last USAC gold crown race held outside of Marion County, Indiana (until the Mickey Mouse 200 in 1996). That was the 1980 Pocono 500, right?
Was it 80? The history of the split website shows it as Aug of 1981. I've seen a couple shots of the starting grid from that race. Pretty odd looking with the Silvercrowns mixed in with early RE aero Champ cars.

[jonovision_man]

Originally posted by RichK
IMO, you shouldn't mix classes of open wheel cars. Too much speed differential is not a good thing with exposed tires.

That's a valid point, although I'm imagining a class that would be within 3-5 seconds a lap, not hugely significant.

Atlantics aren't a good canadidate, like the other poster said the cars would be decimated if they collided with a Champcar.

I was thinking more of a restricted spec Champcar that could be cookie-cuttered and wouldn't require the same investment or team size commitment as a full Champcar program.

Cost - it's ridiculous, if you want something that brings a tear to your eye, check out Red Bull. They recently gave $15M to Jaguar to hire their driver, Klein, for the 2004 season. BUT they don't even get a logo on the car!

How many Champcar *teams* could they have run for that kind of cash? 3-5 cars?

jono

[JT265]

Originally posted by jonovision_man

How many Champcar *teams* could they have run for that kind of cash? 3-5 cars?

jono

Speed costs. How fast do you wanna go? 15 xtra-large would do 2 of 'em up 1st class, and you could do 3 kinda sorta.

[racer2c]

Originally posted by jonovision_man
That's a valid point, although I'm imagining a class that would be within 3-5 seconds a lap, not hugely significant.

Atlantics aren't a good canadidate, like the other poster said the cars would be decimated if they collided with a Champcar.

I was thinking more of a restricted spec Champcar that could be cookie-cuttered and wouldn't require the same investment or team size commitment as a full Champcar program.


jono

People do not like invest money knowing full well that they will never get to the checkered first. Except in cases where the exposure of the series is such that they are guaranteed ROI due strictly on series popularity i.e. F1, NASCAR.
They might as well make keep it a spec series with a price cap on every aspect.

[Jag_Warrior]

Considering that today is Dec. 6, it seems like 2004 will pretty much be a wash, won't it? Get what cars can be gotten for '04 and then try to put some decent deals (sponsors and TV) together for 2005.

CART will be private again. Any slick, back room deal that they can make will soon be cool. There are a couple of race car loving (well connected) billionaires prepared to put some money in this thing now. The economy may be crawling out of its hole. True, they're back to square 1 again, but at least there are some strong players (no pun intended) on board now. On another board there's a troll who is always yapping, "but it'll cost them $X millions to run CART. They can't do it!" WTF not? Forsythe seems like a man who will spend money just to have something to do. He owns a cash cow. He can do what he damn well pleases. I just hope he pleases to have some sort of open wheel series for us 'Muricans who have been NASCAR'd to death.

[Railbird]

very well put JW.

Square one with two high-rollers apparently determined to make something happen. Stay tuned.

[Sean O'Gorman]

Originally posted by Turn7
Well, I am a proponent of car count. The more the better!

I think the problem with no passing opportunities is derived from low car count and the crowds and tv numbers have gone down as the car count has diminished.

The wankers in the back 1/3 of a 25-30 car field are the ones that get in the way and set up passing opportunities. With 15-18 cars on track, the lapped traffic is not a factor because there just aren't that many out there. Plus, the teams that remain are the "strongest" and most competent and there for the "wanker" factor is reduced.

I would rather watch a full field of turbo charged atlantics than a hand full of champ cars circulate the track.

I agree completely. This is why I was so upset when Pook said he never envisioned CART needing more than 22 cars on the grid.

[racer2c]

I'd rather watch a single Champ Car fly through the Corkscrew or a single Formula 1 machine manipulate the Senna Curves than a full field of Crapwagons at some cookie cutter oval. But that's just me.

[jonovision_man]

Originally posted by racer2c
People do not like invest money knowing full well that they will never get to the checkered first. Except in cases where the exposure of the series is such that they are guaranteed ROI due strictly on series popularity i.e. F1, NASCAR.
They might as well make keep it a spec series with a price cap on every aspect.

Maybe true, but there are series such as ALMS with very little popularity and a class system, where most of the entrants have no chance of actually winning. If they'd tried to put together a field full of prototypes, they'd never have had a field worth watching.

British Touring cars are similar, they have a production class that has it's own podium and championship.

I think it could work.

The alternative - a little more than a dozen cars - isn't very appealing. Seeing lots of cars, lots of traffic, lots of passing (even lapping) is good.

jono

[Railbird]

IMHO mixing two classes of openwheel cars, particularly on the streets, would be suicidal.

I enjoy the diversity of an ALMS field but those folks have fenders.

[racer2c]

Originally posted by jonovision_man
Maybe true, but there are series such as ALMS with very little popularity and a class system, where most of the entrants have no chance of actually winning. If they'd tried to put together a field full of prototypes, they'd never have had a field worth watching.

British Touring cars are similar, they have a production class that has it's own podium and championship.

I think it could work.

The alternative - a little more than a dozen cars - isn't very appealing. Seeing lots of cars, lots of traffic, lots of passing (even lapping) is good.

jono

Well, there is precedent for open wheel 'class' races as others in this thread have noted. I personally think it would be bad for my 'perception' argument. How would it show for some Atlantic drivers to qualify in the third row and end up coming in third place in the race. Hard to market the Champ Cars as the premier series. Just as bad as GTS sport cars bettering the prototypes through attrition. Now, if they swapped cars every week based on where they finished the week prior. :cool:

There's no denying that 22 is 'better' than 12. I am just not convinced they need to do radical class combinations just for to get the car count fluffed.

I would be fine with a rebuilding year with 12 cars and then hit it hard in '05.

[jonovision_man]

Originally posted by racer2c

There's no denying that 22 is 'better' than 12. I am just not convinced they need to do radical class combinations just for to get the car count fluffed.

I would be fine with a rebuilding year with 12 cars and then hit it hard in '05.

I guess. Just seems like CART is always rebuilding, but the sponsors and such never seem to follow to make the thing self-supporting. Maybe OWRS will spin it differently enough to change this, who knows.

jono