Time to Carve a Niche...

[racer2c]

Over on the other racing forum I brought up how I think that now is the time to change Champ Car into a road/street only series and change the cars to be better suited to that end and give even more of a wow factor as an added value. American F1. There I said it. It's not a bad thing. It is a good thing. Allow me to post my comments below and let's start defining the perfect Champ Car series. The new owners seem to pay quite a bit of attention to fan forums so if our new mantra is change, than let's tell them how we want it.

From The Others forum: "That is why I am ready to get on the road/street course only bandwagon for Champ Cars. Make the cars even more adept at those cirquits thus making the crapwagons even more evident of being crappy. I want smaller, lighter chassis, higher turbo boost maybe even larger tires. Oh and paddle shifters, yeah paddle shifters! An F1 car on a budget. Get those Champ Cars screaming out of the corners and stopping even better so that the look is more F1 and people will start to say whoa, look at this! I'm all for diversity, but not for two ovals a year. Not when they could have a smaller, lighter, faster car that is even more impressive. That way when the crapwagons take to the track they will look like the slugs they are in comparison. *credit to Chris B for the influence*"

[jonovision_man]

Over on the other racing forum I brought up how I think that now is the time to change Champ Car into a road/street only series and change the cars to be better suited to that end and give even more of a wow factor as an added value. American F1. There I said it. It's not a bad thing. It is a good thing. Allow me to post my comments below and let's start defining the perfect Champ Car series. The new owners seem to pay quite a bit of attention to fan forums so if our new mantra is change, than let's tell them how we want it.

From The Others forum: "That is why I am ready to get on the road/street course only bandwagon for Champ Cars. Make the cars even more adept at those cirquits thus making the crapwagons even more evident of being crappy. I want smaller, lighter chassis, higher turbo boost maybe even larger tires. Oh and paddle shifters, yeah paddle shifters! An F1 car on a budget. Get those Champ Cars screaming out of the corners and stopping even better so that the look is more F1 and people will start to say whoa, look at this! I'm all for diversity, but not for two ovals a year. Not when they could have a smaller, lighter, faster car that is even more impressive. That way when the crapwagons take to the track they will look like the slugs they are in comparison. *credit to Chris B for the influence*"

That was discussed here too... can't find the thread.

Certainly if ovals were to fall off the schedule, the chassis should be re-visited, but I suspect there won't be a lot of support from CART fans for completely removing ovals.

I think someone brought up the old Premier1 Reynard chassis, it was meant to be a very fast, light, aerodynamic little car which would push F1 for lap times. It wouldn't survive an oval impact, but it would certainly look better whipping through chicanes than a Champcar does.

If you go for that F1 business... :)

jono

[RichK]

My answer to the people who visit my office, see the Champcar calendar, and inevitably say "Is that a Formula 1 car?" is:

"No, but it's pretty much an American version of Formula 1." I'm happy with Champcar being just that.

[Don Quixote]

I would be ok with dropping the ovals. And the model of a F1- American is ok. But lets make the drivers drive the car. No paddle shifters, no traction or launch control. Lets give them a lighter/smaller chassis, high HP, and see who can drive. And I love the idea of a small displacement high boost turbo.

[FTG]

As a marketing guy, that is clearly the best marketing move.

[racer2c]

That was discussed here too... can't find the thread.

Certainly if ovals were to fall off the schedule, the chassis should be re-visited, but I suspect there won't be a lot of support from CART fans for completely removing ovals.

I think someone brought up the old Premier1 Reynard chassis, it was meant to be a very fast, light, aerodynamic little car which would push F1 for lap times. It wouldn't survive an oval impact, but it would certainly look better whipping through chicanes than a Champcar does.

If you go for that F1 business... :)

jono

Yes, it's been discussed thousands of times over many years. And if you want to get truly philosophical about it, it goes back to the first European invasion of the Indy 500 that created the attitudes and racing beliefs that are still in the paddock today.

In Judge Ottes words, Champ Car has been given a second chance and now is the time to differentiate itself as much as possible from the IRL. Tony is going to hit the warpath with a great vengeance.

Champ Car has few ovals and really, when it's all said and done we won't miss them. In fact with a pure road course thoroughbred racer, we will hardly look back. The time is now.

As for "going for F1", I've never met a Champ Car fan who didn't.

[Railbird]

CART always kept me entertained as a fan with it's diversity. Going from Indy to Milwaukee to Belle Isle to Cleveland to Michigan to MO and then RA watching the same teams and drivers with basicly the same equipment was true racefan bliss.

but those days are done.

I'm for concentrating on what's going to be available in the near term track wise.

Light chassis with a turbo Ifour and some fat tires. Generate the downforce with the chassis and cut way back on the wings so the cars can follow closely with no fear of the dreaded aero push.

No freakin' driver aids of any sort.


But first we have to get through a couple years with what we've got.

[racer2c]

Again, your wisdom brings reality and logic to the table. I think it's very important that, even though Champ Car will remain like it was in '03 for a year or two, that they come out soon with a 'vision' of their future. A future far removed from the Indy 500.

[Chaos]

this plan is fine (I was an advocate of it myself), but the confusion factor does not go away when IRL goes roading, and you know they are...so what do you do then? It's a tough one...


But first we have to get through a couple years with what we've got.Very true. I wish it were not the case though. Would you undo the chassis development freeze?

[pchall]

From the beginning of champcar racing in 1909 the series has always been at its best when the formula was an Americanized version of Grand Prix cars. The 4.5l pre-WWI races, the 3.0l, 2.0l, and 1.5l races from 1919 to 1929. The 4.5l NA/3.0l supercharged races from 1937 to 1941. The post roadster era from 1963 to 1970 and the CART era from 1979 to 2003.

OWRS needs to continue the tradition. Current F1 regs need not be followed religiously, but a top level road racing car in the Grand Prix idiom sturdy enough for the occasional oval race is the way to go.

[Railbird]

Would you undo the chassis development freeze?

not this year for sure, it's going to take an influx of sponsorship for the teams and the series before much development work can be afforded.

face it folks, the series is looking for it's legs.

stand before you walk, walk before you run.

[KLang]

stand before you walk, walk before you run.

I think we're trying to figure out how to crawl right now. I'm hoping for standing up by mid-season. I have faith. :cool:

[Brickman]

I agree with almost every post in this thread. It's the right direction, has been so for some time. I just hope they run Vegas on an oval this year... Takes planning and money and IF it happens it won't be for years.

[cart7]

If they go the route of a smaller, narrower more RR & SR friendly car, will it open any more doors to RR tracks in the US that we can't currently run now?

Obviously, without the bulk of the current and previous chassis, Laguna and say M/O become a racier venue but what other road courses could be realistically added? Road Atlanta? VIR? Willow Springs? Mosport?

Just wondering because I could see where a newly designed chassis, as described by you guys above, would be a perfect excuse to begin going to a heavily biased street race schedule.

[Peter Olivola]

Depending on lap times, it may open up Road Atlanta and Barber Motorsports Park but everything else won't pass safety muster and/or won't pass marketing muster (I'm deliberately leaving out Sears Point and Watkins Glen and all infield road courses.)


If they go the route of a smaller, narrower more RR & SR friendly car, will it open any more doors to RR tracks in the US that we can't currently run now?

Obviously, without the bulk of the current and previous chassis, Laguna and say M/O become a racier venue but what other road courses could be realistically added? Road Atlanta? VIR? Willow Springs? Mosport?

Just wondering because I could see where a newly designed chassis, as described by you guys above, would be a perfect excuse to begin going to a heavily biased street race schedule.

[RTKar]

From the beginning of champcar racing in 1909 the series has always been at its best when the formula was an Americanized version of Grand Prix cars. The 4.5l pre-WWI races, the 3.0l, 2.0l, and 1.5l races from 1919 to 1929. The 4.5l NA/3.0l supercharged races from 1937 to 1941. The post roadster era from 1963 to 1970 and the CART era from 1979 to 2003.

OWRS needs to continue the tradition. Current F1 regs need not be followed religiously, but a top level road racing car in the Grand Prix idiom sturdy enough for the occasional oval race is the way to go.

I'd like to see the diversity remain. It's what makes the series distinct. Also, presented properly, you may get some exposure to oval racing fans which could make them more interested on our series and eventually road racing (remember I stated, presented properly). If enough "buzz" is generated, the ovals could work, they have in the past. Remember too, conversely, F1 cars were adapted to oval racing initially both front and rear engine specs. I agree the Champcars should be a bit narrower and possibly made lighter to make them more "racy" on street circuits. With carbon fiber and enough speed reduction not to mention soft wall technology, a more street course friendly Champcar spec could work on ovals. I would hate too see all oval racing abandoned to the irl.

[racer2c]

The last thing I want Champ Car to become is the open wheel version of Winston West, CASCAR or the IHRA. in other words, off the radar screen to all but the locals where they race.

Champ Car doesn't have a lot of time. With Tony going road racing as soon as he can get his grubby paws on one or two, he will spin doctor and proclaim to all outlets that he has the best, most "Diverse" series. He already has the major auto racing outlets in his back pocket who currently give the IRL the nod as the premier series.

What I am anticipating and hopefully instigating is that they 'announce' some time, relatively, soon (meaning sometime this racing season) that they have a plan in place to differentiate themselves from the IRL and they are still an international, top tier racing series worth watching, attending and covering.

If they wait too long, it will be too late.

[ChrisB]

Thanks racer2c! I was as much into the oval/road diversity camp as everyone else, but when CART adopted a quasi-IRL 3.5L in the fall of 2001, it seemed that by using the same engine and a similar sized chassis as the IRL... thus having a near equal hp/wt ratio... they couldn't differentiate themsleves from the IRL and eventually would get swallowed up. I figured if they were going to have the same engine and Hp as the IRL, why not go to a lighter chassis which would give a better hp/wt ratio on road/street, and then they could at least make the point that they were a better R/S series than the IRL and protect that turf. The downside was that they would have to give up the ovals because a much lighter chassis would not be as crash worthy.

CART eventually gave up on the quasi-compatible 3.5L in 2002, but at that time we could see that CARTs ovals were really dying out that year. Milwaukee is the only one left, and the IRL having a date there will probably draw away enough attendance from the CWS date to make it unprofitable. CWS on ovals is essentially dead. So at this point they might as well focus, focus, focus on being a r/s series.... and that eventually means new equipment when it's feasable.

As always, I say a roadracing-only Champcar should be lighter withs lotsa power. Shorter wheelbase, more tire and undertray, and less wing. (and I still would prefer a rootes-supercharged engine with lotsa low-end torque)

[jonovision_man]

Yes, it's been discussed thousands of times over many years. And if you want to get truly philosophical about it, it goes back to the first European invasion of the Indy 500 that created the attitudes and racing beliefs that are still in the paddock today.

In Judge Ottes words, Champ Car has been given a second chance and now is the time to differentiate itself as much as possible from the IRL. Tony is going to hit the warpath with a great vengeance.

Champ Car has few ovals and really, when it's all said and done we won't miss them. In fact with a pure road course thoroughbred racer, we will hardly look back. The time is now.

As for "going for F1", I've never met a Champ Car fan who didn't.

Personally I put F1 ahead of all else, so anything that made CART more like F1 is fine in my books. Watching Champcars lumber through the chicanes in Montreal was a bit painful, F1 looks so much more nimble through the corners.

But the diversity of circuits has been a cornerstone of Champcar's character, makes them unique, so I'm a bit torn. Not that I should be confused with an oval fan, but the odd one is novel.

If CART goes F1-like, it should also adopt the common feeder system, F3. It would be neat to see American F3 drivers head over to Macau and compete with the international F3 crowd, for instance. (There used to be a USF3 (http://www.usf3.net/) , I think it's dead though...)

jono

[racer2c]

Personally I put F1 ahead of all else, so anything that made CART more like F1 is fine in my books. Watching Champcars lumber through the chicanes in Montreal was a bit painful, F1 looks so much more nimble through the corners.

Thus the need to do something about the cars. One oval does not warrant an oval chassis.


But the diversity of circuits has been a cornerstone of Champcar's character, makes them unique, so I'm a bit torn. Not that I should be confused with an oval fan, but the odd one is novel.

And I believe that 99% of all Champ Car fans feel that same way. But the reality of the situation is that Tony and his all oval series ripped that chapter out of the Champ Car book. On any given Sunday when folks are flipping channels they will come across NASCAR on an oval, the IRL on an oval, Champ Cars on an oval? How about Champ Cars on a road course where the cars look incredibly fast.
Champ Car and F1 are and have been linked . From engineers, to drivers to technology to philosophies. What's playing on the TV Sunday morning in the Champ Car paddock? F1. AJ has called them F1 wanna be's since they formed. Why? Because they are F1 wanna be's. It's just that to people who put the Indy 500 on a pedestal, the name 'F1 wanna be" is a bad thing. It's not. F1 is the pinnacle of all motor-sport, bar none (BE op eds aside). One oval this year is not going to appease the "Champ Cars is about diversity crowd".


If CART goes F1-like, it should also adopt the common feeder system, F3. It would be neat to see American F3 drivers head over to Macau and compete with the international F3 crowd, for instance. (There used to be a USF3 (http://www.usf3.net/) , I think it's dead though...)

jono

Well, the general consensus among the Formula Atlantic drivers, owners, etc is that it is not the formula to go directly into a Champ Car. Work it out so that FA can compete with F3? Good idea.

[Peter Venkman]

"now is the time to change Champ Car into a road/street only series and change the cars to be better suited to that end and give even more of a wow factor as an added value."

I have mixed feelings about that.

I think that ChampCar should continue to run ovals, if for nothing more than to stick it to the Idiot Grandson, and in the process, continue to showcase real racing against the crap that Tony George has created.

Make the cars just a "tad" less expensive, and then prehaps a secondary oval car could be afforded.


PV

[Sean O'Gorman]

I think that OWRS should run on a fair amount of ovals, because it is that diversity that allows OWRS to stand out.

Think about it, if there were 6-10 ovals on the OWRS schedule, what reason would there be to justify the IRL? I'm curious if theres any correlation between the number of ovals on the CART schedule over the years, and their strength/weakness versus the IRL.

[Hink]

Keep ovals.

Ditch the stupid wing rules.

[jonovision_man]

Thus the need to do something about the cars. One oval does not warrant an oval chassis.


There could be up to three ovals...



And I believe that 99% of all Champ Car fans feel that same way. But the reality of the situation is that Tony and his all oval series ripped that chapter out of the Champ Car book. On any given Sunday when folks are flipping channels they will come across NASCAR on an oval, the IRL on an oval, Champ Cars on an oval? How about Champ Cars on a road course where the cars look incredibly fast.
Champ Car and F1 are and have been linked . From engineers, to drivers to technology to philosophies. What's playing on the TV Sunday morning in the Champ Car paddock? F1. AJ has called them F1 wanna be's since they formed. Why? Because they are F1 wanna be's. It's just that to people who put the Indy 500 on a pedestal, the name 'F1 wanna be" is a bad thing. It's not. F1 is the pinnacle of all motor-sport, bar none (BE op eds aside). One oval this year is not going to appease the "Champ Cars is about diversity crowd".


I... agree... but... I'm cautious about it around here! :) Don't you remember so-many-years-ago when everyone used to argue that CART was so much better than F1 because x-y-z? Obviously the money and tech development F1 had was superior, but CART fans firmly believed their series was better because of the racing on the track.

I don't know if those people are still out there? Or have they conceeded all to F1?



Well, the general consensus among the Formula Atlantic drivers, owners, etc is that it is not the formula to go directly into a Champ Car. Work it out so that FA can compete with F3? Good idea.

F1 had the same problem with F3000, there was too much of a gulf between it and F1. They've solved that with GP2, starting in a couple years.

And let's face it, F3 and F3000 have been as much feeder systems for CART as for F1! CART gets quite a few drivers from the European juniour series, just because they can't get into F1 and want to race professionally.

It only makes sense to create juniour series over here that are alligned with those in Europe. Could mean more Americans looked at for F1, too.

jono

[racer2c]

Three ovals? Which puts them in direct competition with the IRL and inevitable, politically slanted dealings with ISC and would require the use of the current chassis. Versus forcing the comparisons with the IRL to the road course side which Champ Car would have an obvious visceral advantage due to it's revised F1 like machinery, no ISC dealing and their American premier road course racing niche is then carved.

A no brainer in my book (but I can't find a publisher :gomer: )

[jonovision_man]

Three ovals? Which puts them in direct competition with the IRL and inevitable, politically slanted dealings with ISC and would require the use of the current chassis. Versus forcing the comparisons with the IRL to the road course side which Champ Car would have an obvious visceral advantage due to it's revised F1 like machinery, no ISC dealing and their American premier road course racing niche is then carved.

A no brainer in my book (but I can't find a publisher :gomer: )

I should be clear, I mean 3 at the most. Where (if) they race in Las Vegas has yet to be decided, and I'm not certain if Fontana is completely dead yet. It wasn't on OWRS's schedule in their court document but they did put some money toward settling the suit so who knows.

Realistically, if they're not doing at least 3, then they aren't worth keeping at all. As you've pointed out the chassis has always been a comprimise because of them.

jono

[Ziggy]

Man, this has been around the block. I have posted several times on this subject. For the short term, 2004 they are going to have to race the bigger cars with the big motors. They should go to a smaller car, smaller motor, which will raise lap times. If they are still going to race on ovals, then with a slower car, it will take them longer to hit the wall when they get out of shape.

I was one of the guys who felt CART had a better product than F1. The racing was great and I didnt need a passport to go to an event. The off the shelf nature of the kit car was excellent.

These guys (OWRS) have to get it right, and they must get off a really great first shot. Their bank accounts depend on it.

If your lobbying for a smaller car, then you must accept slower as well. I think that the only way they are going to make this thing work is to really hit the street races, HARD. It only makes sense to attract a manufacturer on the concept of smaller... for the price will be smaller as well.

Then they could find their feet, increase their schedule in a given time span, and increase the dynamic of the cars along with their growth. By "dynamic" I do mean speed. Speed cost money, something they need to be very careful with in the coming months. They are trying to reach the company who has been shut out of NASCAR for whatever reasons (principal or technical)

CART was never competing with Formula One, it just evolved that way

and it was COOL

Ziggy

[nz_climber]

Nice post ziggy :thumbup:

:)

[racer2c]

This is more about creating an identity that is very different from the IRL rather then semantics about car size. I disagree about size being equivalent to price. How did you come up with that one?

And like I said in this very post, we've been going around in circles on this topic for years on a dozen different CART boards. The difference now is that the time is now. Champ Car needs to be different than it was it it wants to survive or in other words, why race in a car designed for ovals, when you have no ovals.

[RTKar]

This is more about creating an identity that is very different from the IRL rather then semantics about car size. I disagree about size being equivalent to price. How did you come up with that one?

And like I said in this very post, we've been going around in circles on this topic for years on a dozen different CART boards. The difference now is that the time is now. Champ Car needs to be different than it was it it wants to survive or in other words, why race in a car designed for ovals, when you have no ovals.

The advancements in "Safer walls" may make the need for an oval specific car moot.

[Ziggy]

By size I meant that a four cylinder should be cheaper than an eight. A car designed to run in the 20% slower should be reflected in lower componant cost in terms of brakes, springs, chassie, wheels, gearbox etc. I realize that reducing size usually cost more money. If it takes lower tech, then thats what it will take. I dont think OWRS can survive a season's racing running in the 10 million mark per car. Im thinking along the lines of a souped up Atlantic car, or a F3 car (which I know nothing about)

Ziggy

[racer2c]

The advancements in "Safer walls" may make the need for an oval specific car moot.

Good observation. :thumbup:

[JT265]

Ziggy nailed it. Smaller chassis, I4 turbo and we are good to go.

[Cart4Live2003]

umm you say smaller chassis means smaller engine..

clarify .. smaller as in lighter or just physically smaller?

cause F1 is lighter than champ cars but have a larger engine per say.. a V10 compared to a turbo V8.. and they are thinner too.. so smaller .. so smaller chassis doesn't always mean smaller engine

[pchall]

By size I meant that a four cylinder should be cheaper than an eight. A car designed to run in the 20% slower should be reflected in lower componant cost in terms of brakes, springs, chassie, wheels, gearbox etc. I realize that reducing size usually cost more money. If it takes lower tech, then thats what it will take. I dont think OWRS can survive a season's racing running in the 10 million mark per car. Im thinking along the lines of a souped up Atlantic car, or a F3 car (which I know nothing about)

Ziggy


I like this idea, and have suggested an "Atlantics sized" car in the past. The current champcar chassis has too long a wheelbase for the road courses and street courses they run on (a legacy of superspeedway racing, no doubt) and it really cuts down on passing opportunities. Reduce the wheelbase by a foot or a 18", reduce the weight by several hundred pounds, add plenty of ponies with a turbo 4, and the racing would be fine.

[Chaos]

I don't think the chassis dimensions is the problem, only because these are essentially the same cars that had lots of passing in the mid-90s. That said, i'm open to the idea of making them smaller (it cant hurt anyway). It's gotta be bigger than an atlantic car though.

[Cart4Live2003]

yah that would just looks stupid to have the champ cars the size of atlantics.. ick..

they need to just start streamlining the car for road/street courses like F1 has.. maybe not to the degree F1 has cause they'll still have 1 or 2 ovals.. for a whle at least..

[jonovision_man]

If your lobbying for a smaller car, then you must accept slower as well. I think that the only way they are going to make this thing work is to really hit the street races, HARD.

Slower? Only if ovals are maintained...

F1 is smaller and faster... by being smaller they're able to get the power-to-weight ratio way up there. They're fast, they're nimble, they're smaller, and they're more powerful...

Not saying CART should be F1, but certainly if they go with a smaller/lighter chassis there's no reason the speed needs to suffer.

Unless ovals are maintained, of course.

jono

[pchall]

yah that would just looks stupid to have the champ cars the size of atlantics.. ick..


Do you realize that the current champcars are more than 30 inches longer in wheelbase than a 1968 Eagle? Or that the current Atlantics cars are larger than a Lotus 25?

[RichK]

Do you realize that the current champcars are more than 30 inches longer in wheelbase than a 1968 Eagle? Or that the current Atlantics cars are larger than a Lotus 25?

And, if you park an Atlantics car next to a new F1 car, you might be surprised!

[jonovision_man]

And, if you park an Atlantics car next to a new F1 car, you might be surprised!

I'll say! From cart.com and forix.com:

Width x Length:
Champcar 78.5" x 190-199"
Toyota Atlantic 77" x 167"
Ferrari 2003-GA 71" x 179"

Weight:
Champcar 1565 lbs + driver (1540lbs speedway)
Atlantic 1265 lbs
F1 1323lbs

jono

[pchall]

And, if you park an Atlantics car next to a new F1 car, you might be surprised!

No suprises there for me. I am VERY familiar with the dimensions and weights of current formula cars. It is the change in dimensions over time that interest me -- since the tracks themselves haven't gotten wider.

[Railbird]

I know I'm just a hotrod redneck, but if you put some massive slicks on a F/A you would have a very cool looking racecar.

Fit Kellner's turbo four stockblock in the little beast and drop the flag.

[RichK]

No suprises there for me. I am VERY familiar with the dimensions and weights of current formula cars.

I didn't mean YOU, I meant "you" in the figurative sense. :)

[pchall]

I didn't mean YOU, I meant "you" in the figurative sense. :)

understood

[jonovision_man]

And, if you park an Atlantics car next to a new F1 car, you might be surprised!

We've all compared CART vs. F1 a million times... it's Atlantics I've never looked at that closely. Didn't realize they are almost as wide as a Champcar!

jono

[rabbit]

How feasible would it be to have a chassis that would be usable in Atlantics and Champ Cars? That way if someone wanted to work their way up the ladder, they could buy the chassis, race Atlantics and - with a new engine, suspension kit, etc. - move up to Champ Cars when they were ready with just marginal expenditures. Is it doable?

[Turn7]

How feasible would it be to have a chassis that would be usable in Atlantics and Champ Cars? That way if someone wanted to work their way up the ladder, they could buy the chassis, race Atlantics and - with a new engine, suspension kit, etc. - move up to Champ Cars when they were ready with just marginal expenditures. Is it doable?

If you want to go that route, why not make it the exact same except with different boost levels?

[Dirty Sanchez]

I think this is a good disucussion... but I think its important to remember that any significant formula changes that may be good financially in the long term, from a competition perspective, etc. will first require a very significant investment... something that I think is extremely prohibitive given the current state of the series.

My biggest complaint about CART has always been about the racing. Specifically, the need for 2+ full course yellow TV timeouts almost every single race. Figure out a way to do what F1 does well... and that's keep the race going! Cranes, not lighting trucks please. Local yellows! No mandatory pit windows! I want a race from start to finish... not 3 or 4 little sprint races within a race.

I understand that walled in temporary street circuits make this a tough proposition. I guess that's one reason why I'm not all that juiced about the street fest thing and why I'll always be more excited for the 3-4 proper road course races each year. But even on those tracks they manage to find a way to bunch everyone up...

I could go on and on about this... but bottomline, if they can find a way to make the racing more like F1 (a complete race!) I would be much more enthusiastic about Champcar. As it is now, I still love the series, but I can't help but thinking it could and should be a lot better.

I think that finding solutions to problems like this is much more do-able in the short term with greater rewards as well... at least for me :)

[jonovision_man]

I think this is a good disucussion... but I think its important to remember that any significant formula changes that may be good financially in the long term, from a competition perspective, etc. will first require a very significant investment... something that I think is extremely prohibitive given the current state of the series.

My biggest complaint about CART has always been about the racing. Specifically, the need for 2+ full course yellow TV timeouts almost every single race. Figure out a way to do what F1 does well... and that's keep the race going! Cranes, not lighting trucks please. Local yellows! No mandatory pit windows! I want a race from start to finish... not 3 or 4 little sprint races within a race.

I understand that walled in temporary street circuits make this a tough proposition. I guess that's one reason why I'm not all that juiced about the street fest thing and why I'll always be more excited for the 3-4 proper road course races each year. But even on those tracks they manage to find a way to bunch everyone up...

I could go on and on about this... but bottomline, if they can find a way to make the racing more like F1 (a complete race!) I would be much more enthusiastic about Champcar. As it is now, I still love the series, but I can't help but thinking it could and should be a lot better.

I think that finding solutions to problems like this is much more do-able in the short term with greater rewards as well... at least for me :)

To illustrate...

Full course yellows at Monaco, F1:
2001 - 0
2002 - 0
2003 - 1 - lasting 3 laps (2-4)

There were plenty of incidents, cars in the wall, etc... but they're cleared from above by cranes! :) And some ballsy course workers.

Definately something CART should address. I remember Pook making some remarks to that effect, but last year looked much like the years previous.

jono

[racer2c]

To illustrate...

Full course yellows at Monaco, F1:
2001 - 0
2002 - 0
2003 - 1 - lasting 3 laps (2-4)

There were plenty of incidents, cars in the wall, etc... but they're cleared from above by cranes! :) And some ballsy course workers.

Definately something CART should address. I remember Pook making some remarks to that effect, but last year looked much like the years previous.

jono

Bernie has the euros to pay the insurance and lawsuits for when/if the ballsy corner workers get into a 'situation'.

I can't imagine that it would break the bank by putting cranes at known hot spots on a street course.

[Chaos]

Bernie has the euros to pay the insurance and lawsuits for when/if the ballsy corner workers get into a 'situation'.

I can't imagine that it would break the bank by putting cranes at known hot spots on a street course.

spot on

[jonovision_man]

Bernie has the euros to pay the insurance and lawsuits for when/if the ballsy corner workers get into a 'situation'.

I can't imagine that it would break the bank by putting cranes at known hot spots on a street course.

True enough. There have been some close calls, ie. Brazil 2003 where everyone was going off at that temporary river accross the circuit... the workers were still out attending to one car when two others went off track.

CART's attitude seems to be if it's not safe under green, it's not safe under waved yellows.

F1 assumes their drivers won't go off at waved yellows, but it happens.

jono

[mueber]

I think they should retain, and later develop, a chassis that can "easily" run ovals, just in case they can find an oval venue that pays, but OWRS should run where the money is.

[Chaos]

Brazil 2003

...if there ever was a race that justified the yellow flag paranoia, this was it!

[RTKar]

I think this is a good disucussion... but I think its important to remember that any significant formula changes that may be good financially in the long term, from a competition perspective, etc. will first require a very significant investment... something that I think is extremely prohibitive given the current state of the series.

My biggest complaint about CART has always been about the racing. Specifically, the need for 2+ full course yellow TV timeouts almost every single race. Figure out a way to do what F1 does well... and that's keep the race going! Cranes, not lighting trucks please. Local yellows! No mandatory pit windows! I want a race from start to finish... not 3 or 4 little sprint races within a race.

I understand that walled in temporary street circuits make this a tough proposition. I guess that's one reason why I'm not all that juiced about the street fest thing and why I'll always be more excited for the 3-4 proper road course races each year. But even on those tracks they manage to find a way to bunch everyone up...

I could go on and on about this... but bottomline, if they can find a way to make the racing more like F1 (a complete race!) I would be much more enthusiastic about Champcar. As it is now, I still love the series, but I can't help but thinking it could and should be a lot better.

I think that finding solutions to problems like this is much more do-able in the short term with greater rewards as well... at least for me :)

My sentiments also...I could have written it myself...if streets are the future, they better make them more enjoyable to watch especially for the TV audience. Having a significant portion of the race run under yellow is not the way to build ratings.

[Ankf00]

racermike was telling me ridiculously astronomical insurance costs are the thing forcing so many yellows and the lack of car removal under green