View Full Version : Should ovals be on new schedule?
Hard Driver
02-14-04, 12:08 PM
OK, this thread is started every year. Well, we have new owners and a new schedule coming out. Why not see what the current vibe is.
I think that facing facts, Champ Cars need to contain costs and develop their own niche. While diversity was great in the "glory days", current reality is that there is extra costs for wings and testing which is money people don't have. And there is already an open wheel oval series with lots of oval racing to watch. So I believe Champcars should claim their rightful spot as at the top of the North American road racing ladder and leave it at that.
I'm still in the diversity camp. It is what always made the series unique. I'm not sure costs are that much of an issue until they change equipment. I suspect we will revisit the european ovals eventually. Doesn't Forsythe have a stake in the one in England?
Yes, I would love to see Champ Cars continue to run on ovals. I appreciate a good oval race and Champ Cars used to do this better than any other series. But the increased speeds led to Handford Device races and no pass races at tracks like Chicago and the quality suffered. It may be more expensive but it provides a diversity and personality to the series that sets it aside from all else. The heritage is there, ovals should be kept on the schedule.
Artemus
02-14-04, 01:42 PM
Flat ovals, yay. Banked ovals, nay.
Never did like the banked superspeedways (including Michigan and Fontana). Too fast and dangerous if you ask me. The Mile with proper wings is outstanding, however. I hope OWRS remembers the "proper wings" part. (Again I must ask, "what was CART thinking???)
There are no more ovals that CWS can feasably run at anymore. It's over.
Any oval that you can think of has a problem... all the American ones have relationships with the oval cabal of ISC/SMI/IMS ...even the Miwaukee Mile now. No one will show up at the Euro ovals unless they spend a HUGE amount of money to promote it... money that would be better spent on any RR.
It's time for the 3 amigos to come out and SAY "all road racing".
(and redesign the future Champcars to be RR specific with more power and less weight... which they can't have as long as they have to run any ovals)
Don Quixote
02-14-04, 02:22 PM
I hope they can hold onto Milwaukee, but I hold little hope for the superspeedways. I would rather the cars be designed to be for road racing, and that includes smaller and lighter. The ovals should not be the tail wagging the dog when it comes to car design.
Audi_A4
02-14-04, 02:30 PM
CART needs a mix of road, street, short oval and super speedway races. That is what makes CART a great series. .... imho
Dougrun
02-14-04, 02:34 PM
I still like ths superspeedways if not just for the fact of saying champ cars are the fastest cars out there. Ovals are ok, in moderation. 2-3 max.
4wheeldrifter
02-14-04, 03:17 PM
I personally would like to see OWRS run a few of the short ovals, Milwaukee and Rio come to mind (wish they'd get back there but realize the $$$ and other factors may make it impossible). I'm in agreement with ChrisB that the car design should not be compromised for (at least) the superspeedways.
In the end, I'd much rather have my M-O back than have any ovals on the shed-yool. Paul G, bring back M-O! :thumbup:
Artemus
02-14-04, 04:04 PM
Gateway had a good race prior to the wing change., and Chicago was never really given a chance either. Too bad.
I vote flat bull-rings. The speeds don't get up there so the crash-worthiness isn't as prominent a factor. The size lends itself to exciting, almost psychotic rushes. And, well, hey, they use their brakes!!! Plus 3 in a turn and 1 out of that turn is fun to watch :)
Eagle104
02-14-04, 05:01 PM
A yes from me, too, for all the "diversity" reasons already mentioned.
And, 'flats' before 'cookie-cutters', too.
Insomniac
02-14-04, 05:03 PM
I'm in the diversity camp. But I think they need to do what is best for the series first. And if you can't work out a deal for oval race(s) that make sense, then don't do it just to do it. Let it work out properly.
Work on making the chassis less adjustable/configurable!
jonovision_man
02-14-04, 05:21 PM
No one will show up at the Euro ovals unless they spend a HUGE amount of money to promote it... money that would be better spent on any RR.
That Euro-oval business was nuts from the start, it's a road racing culture that's where they should have made their mark.
F1 costs a fortune to attend, has less accessibility than any motorsports events in the world, and is taking races out of Europe. (I still love it, but that's the truth)
There's a good opportunity there to pitch to the family crowd, really sell the accessibility of CART. These people love good road racing, it's a natural fit, rather than trying to convince them to love ovals...
jono
Racing Truth
02-14-04, 05:39 PM
Well, kind of a moot point really. There is only Milwaukee and MAYBE Gateway in the US. I'm not sure if the Gateway folks are that enamored with any OW racing at this point.
There are the Euro ovals, but as ChrisB pointed out, that would cost $$$$. Said $$$$ would be better used for marketing and even helping a few teams out financially.
At this point in time, dump em. I like some ovals myself, but it doesn't make sense right now. Think of it also as a disengagement of sorts on one front line anyhow with the IRL. Just ignore what the IRL does at this point.
audi quattro
02-14-04, 05:45 PM
Yes. But is it worth it to sacrifice the new chassis for just one or two ovals.
We need a faster more agile car. When I see the champcars lumbering through montreal, it looks far slower than what the times indicate.
In my heart, I will always want a few ovals to spice it up. I do enjoy champcar racing on ovals.
We can dream all day long about ovals and new chassis, etc., but for now we gotta rebuild what we got.
At such time as profitability returns, I would vote for the ChrisB solution as opposed to a cobbled up formula to satisfy the need to run one or two ovals at venues that don't want us anyway.
Just my $0.02, or $5.00 Canadian.
:D
Lizzerd
02-14-04, 07:47 PM
Man, I'm really torn on this subject. Not fence sitting, I just don't know what would be best.
On one hand, I think the CCWS should make its own identity, i.e., the premiere North American based open wheel series. Come up with a formula of shorter wheelbase, lighter weight, and more horsepower.
On the other hand, I really miss MIS and Fontana. Phoenix was always a great show, and if the planets align themselves properly, I would love to see the Milwakee race this year. Having ovals along with streets/roads gives the series a unique identity as well, I guess.
Yikes... I'm so confused. Just wave the damn green flag, and I'll be happy.
Absolutely. I would prefer another oval race in North America to races in South Africa and South Korea. But I think that OWRS should stick to short flat ovals. Maybe try a return to Phoenix and NHIS.
I'm also in the diversity camp! I think that most street races are boring to watch (Except St. Pete last year and usually Long Beach) I know the streets are big festivals for the fans, but that doesn't add much excitement for TV. I think the road coarses are great, Montreal, Road America, M-O if it was just a little wider. I also think the Hanford II killed the short ovals. There were 60K fans at the Paper Clip the first year, but the racing was follow the leader because of the HII. I think if CART could have found a way to get rid of tat thing sooner, Chicago could have survived. Milwaukee has had grerat racing again the last couple years and I would like to see OWRS buiild on that and start moving to other facilities too.
If they are forced to completely eliminate ovals for even one year, I don't think you would ever see them again.
I was originally attracted to Champ Cars because of the diversity and I would like them to make every effort to keep it.
Just my $.02
RaceGrrl
02-14-04, 08:30 PM
Yes they should be. Will they be? Don't know if it's possible right now. OWRS priority needs to be the strengthening and rebuilding of the series. The most interesting thing about CART has always been its diversity. I just wouldn't be as interested in an all road/street series.
I am, however, willing to wait for the series to grow and see the ovals added to the schedule slowly. I am also willing to wait until Tony George runs out of money to support his little league, and CART can pick up a couple of those venues.
I'm for street and road course only. Let's face it, IRL has the market on oval racing for formula cars. ChampCar should stick with the streets and road circuits. It's a diverse selling point that can be used.....
...however, should the IRL decide to go road racing, which i suppose seems inevidable at this point, then the mutual exclusion factor goes out the window.
In short, who knows...
audi quattro
02-14-04, 10:19 PM
I went to MIS in 01 and it was my first in person oval race.
It was awsome!
Was my first and maybe last CART oval race.
The sounds and the sight lines were wonderful and it is unfathomable how any race fan cannot love that.
Hard Driver
02-15-04, 01:12 AM
Generally the vibe seems to be for diversity. I certainly see the point of having the unique challenge of oval racing as one of the factors. But a few, including myself, think that there is a difference between what would be "ideal" and what would be "realistically best". Ideally, the split never happened and Indy was still on the schedule too. But realistically, the competition for oval racing is massive with IRL, NASCAR, Busch, trucks, etc. The competition for road racing is still only F1 and then lessor series. So if you are rebuilding, doing what you do best and are recognized for is a good place to focus.
Also realistically, keeping the IRL as oval and Champcar as road racing leaves Champcar a market to be best in, a niche. I know how we all distain the IRL, but if they go road racing to any degree, than there becomes a point where the two products are considered identical.. i.e. diverse open wheel racing road and oval racing. Then the point is that they have the manufacturers, big teams (Penske and Ganassi) and Indy. Then rather than being the best in North American road racing, Champcar has a high risk of becoming irrelevent because it is secondary to the IRL. So to be honest, to avoid creating two identical products, Champcar needs to diferentiate itself as Road Racing.
I long for the old Glory days. I loved the Milwaukee mile with big wings and lower HP side by side. I loved the diversity. But the landscape is different. And I think what is strategically best is to rebuild using road/street courses. But developing a national audience won't happen showing TV that is a parade instead of a race. If a street track won't have good racing, then it should not be signed.
fourrunner
02-15-04, 04:18 AM
We can dream all day long about ovals and new chassis, etc., but for now we gotta rebuild what we got.
At such time as profitability returns, I would vote for the ChrisB solution as opposed to a cobbled up formula to satisfy the need to run one or two ovals at venues that don't want us anyway.
Just my $0.02, or $5.00 Canadian.
:D
It's the "at venues that don't want us anyway" that makes the most sense.
Add the ovals After we get back on our feet!
And I almost gave you par for that money! ;);)
Railbird
02-15-04, 08:05 AM
I enjoy the ovals and diversity is what always attracted me to CART but today is a different deal and Champ Cars will no longer race under the CART banner.
If/when a new chassis is considered this question will have to be addressed but for now I believe CWS needs to race anywhere they can swing a deal with a reasonable chance for profit/success.
IMHO Nascar has a lock on the oval racing mentality in America with the IRL scrambling for the roundy-round crumbs so this might be as good a time as any to turn away.
but until the new day dawns I'll still be heading up to Milwaukee the first week in June.
I enjoy the ovals and diversity is what always attracted me to CART but today is a different deal and Champ Cars will no longer race under the CART banner.
If/when a new chassis is considered this question will have to be addressed but for now I believe CWS needs to race anywhere they can swing a deal with a reasonable chance for profit/success.
IMHO Nascar has a lock on the oval racing mentality in America with the IRL scrambling for the roundy-round crumbs so this might be as good a time as any to turn away.
but until the new day dawns I'll still be heading up to Milwaukee the first week in June.
...Milwaukee always comes after Indy... ;)
Put me in the diversity camp as well. There should be races on road courses, street tracks, short ovals, superspeedways, and even a cookie cutter or two.
However, the schedule should not be dominated by any of the above.
Insomniac
02-15-04, 12:23 PM
In all truth, they can race on any type of track as long as their is racing. If the cars are going to play follow the leader, then it isn't much fun. If they can put the racing back in, they can go anywhere they want on any track tyoe they want and people will be interested. Their focus has to be here. Instead of adding rules to try and do this, they need to change the cars so it is there by default. Like it or not, technology is killing the sport. The wind tunnels and infinite set-ups. Just look to F1. We need to go back to the late 80s, early 90s. Use technology to make safer cars, not more perfect aero ones. Reduce the number of configurable options.
I’m not big on ovals, but I think they should race where they can get paid. If an oval wants them there, go there. There are two things I would not do:
1. Cost containment is the name of the game right now. Wrecks tend to cost a lot more on ovals, so I wouldn’t put any on the schedule for the sake of diversity.
2. I wouldn’t change the chassis formula. Maybe they aren’t as nimble as F-1, but who cares? They are easy to fix and relatively cheap, which is the most we can hope for for the next few years.
I'm a diversity guy myself but, I agree with 'bird. Stabilize the series, maybe keep Milwaukee around and then move onto better oval pastures once the ball gets rolling in a couple years.
oddlycalm
02-15-04, 02:02 PM
This is not CART. That's finished, and a part of history now, not the present. What I would like most is for the series to survive and prosper, and to do that they will need to run where they can make money. Aside from the fact there are only one or two ovals that they can run on, pro formula car racing on ovals has declined in popularity to the point of no return IMO, for reasons that have been covered in a thousand different threads. Road racing and oval racing have simply parted company.
Us fossils that were around saw the same thing happen with the dirt tracks. As the cars for the paved courses developed logically, they were simply on divergent paths with the dirt track cars. Anyone that ever saw a dirt track races with guys like Andretti, Ward, Rathmann, Hurtubise, Foyt and the rest knew they had been to a race. Excitement wasn't the issue. Both simply evolved to where they were totally different series. I mention this because there are folks on another forum that still haven't gotten over leaving dirt ovals behind or the loss of front engined roadsters, so it's clear that it will take a long time for serious CART fans to forget about the ovals, but regardless, they are history. It's neither my choice nor anyone elses here.
The champcar chassis is designed to be stable and safe on ovals with concrete walls at 240mph and is simply too big, too clumsy to do any passing on street and tight road courses, and as a result they are often boring to watch. I don't care how many rock bands play, or how many marketing folks you employ, if the races are boring, the prospects for the future will be dismal. Do you really run a chassis/engine package that is boring at 90% of the races just to be able to run a couple ovals and commit business suicide in the process? A better solution would simply to run different cars, however with only one or two ovals, how can you justify the cost to the teams and sponsors?
oc
Well, kind of a moot point really. There is only Milwaukee and MAYBE Gateway in the US. I'm not sure if the Gateway folks are that enamored with any OW racing at this point.
.
Well, Gateway poured quite a bit more on-air time into promoing the last earl race, saw a gain in attendance and then had the rug pulled out from under them. Not enough side-by-side I guess. If Cart lowers their sanctioning fee's, runs either a nite race in summer when the Cardinals are out of town or a fall race when the Rams are elsewhere, I think the track would probably welcome them back. It's obvious Nascar isn't going there and the track could use another big-time racing series to fill the schedule and increase the PSL bottom line.
ferrarigod
02-15-04, 02:18 PM
for the last few years, post the huge hanford, i really enjoyed California. I also enjoyed the new rules at Germany, but passing was almost impossible without a penalty :flame: I always like Milwaukee and I used to like Nazereth, so maybe a few, but no more. Flat is better then banked generally it must be said.
I'd still rather see a crappy street circuit then a mediocre oval
CART may be gone but this is still Champ car and it's diversity that was one of the chief attractions of the series for me. If you lose that aspect of the series then you may as well just call it F-Oneabe and leave it at that. It's the challenge of dealing with the diverse circuits that has always set Champ car apart for me.
I recognize that at this point it is as much an economic and political issue as anything. But it's worthwhile to put a stake in the ground at a couple of ovals to maintain that distinction.
Those who think dropping ovals will allow lighter, faster cars that will produce better racing are, in my opinion, misguided. Going faster rarely produces better racing.
You really can't afford to sacrifice much of the safety of the current cars if you're going to run street courses. You certainly can't do so and make them faster to boot. 200 mph between concrete walls means you need a strong car whether the course is an oval or a street course.
It would be great to update the specs with a smaller engine package to make the cars a bit smaller, keep the strength and hold the line on costs. But I don't think we should sacrifice one bit of the strength built into the current chasis.
oddlycalm
02-15-04, 07:28 PM
Those who think dropping ovals will allow lighter, faster cars that will produce better racing are, in my opinion, misguided. Going faster rarely produces better racing.
Faster isn't likely to be in the cards, but smaller and more nimble could be. The ability to overtake on a tight course seems like a more pivotal issue than top speed. I like the diversity as well, I suspect that it's over. Hope I'm wrong. I was similarly sad to see the dirt ovals go, but in retrospect, it was time.
oc
Peter Venkman
02-15-04, 08:01 PM
Yes, but not ISC ovals.
Insomniac
02-15-04, 08:10 PM
for the last few years, post the huge hanford, i really enjoyed California. I also enjoyed the new rules at Germany, but passing was almost impossible without a penalty :flame: I always like Milwaukee and I used to like Nazereth, so maybe a few, but no more. Flat is better then banked generally it must be said.
They were really getting close to the right formula. Too bad we didn't get to see the new package in action at Fontana.
Madmaxfan2
02-16-04, 05:22 PM
I loved the diversity of the old CART. A driver winning the CART championship meant a driver was versatile in all forms of paved closed circuit racing. A greatness surrounded that driver. It was the unltimate test. The landscape has changed. OWRS must carve up a place in the motorsports to be a viable business. That condition mandates a heavy road racing emphasis. Forget the ovals for the time being.
bigdcart
02-17-04, 10:21 AM
Right now, we make the teams purchase a speedway kit for 1 race. It seems like a waste of cash. We’re on our way to, at long last, defining a ChampCar identity. I liked the races at Milwaukee, but that’s counterbalanced by the lame-fests at Nazareth, Chicago, Rockingham and Homestead. The mix was cool, but it made C^RT look like the jack of all trades, but the master of none.
Insomniac
02-17-04, 10:34 AM
Right now, we make the teams purchase a speedway kit for 1 race. It seems like a waste of cash. We’re on our way to, at long last, defining a ChampCar identity. I liked the races at Milwaukee, but that’s counterbalanced by the lame-fests at Nazareth, Chicago, Rockingham and Homestead. The mix was cool, but it made C^RT look like the jack of all trades, but the master of none.
Most teams already have those parts. And if you look at the total cost, it isn't a large amount. A ChampCar Identity? What. F1 for the cheap? F1 NA? It has/had an identity: Diversity. If they're going to go RC/SC then they need to get a new chassis. They don't need such heavy ones.
I feel ovals are a great part of the series... They offer diversity, pure speed, and most importantly, I live in Milwaukee, and if the Mile was to go away... :flame:
Brickman
02-17-04, 11:08 AM
No ovals. A new niche needs to be carved.
...Milwaukee always comes after Indy... ;)
Precisely why CART/OWRS needs to keep the June date. Confusion to the lemmings!
I grudgingly learned to like oval racing in the early 70s. Now I would hate to see them go away. Of course, the single-seater racing on ovals I learned to appreciate has almost nothing to do with the high banked 1.5 mile silliness that is the IRL (and NASCAR) these days.
devilmaster
02-17-04, 12:59 PM
Put me in for diversity.
Steve
Brickman
02-17-04, 01:07 PM
Put me in for diversity.
Steve
Although I prefer "diversity" it's what the other guys are going to have. Champ Cars would have fewer token ovals then Indy Car will have token road courses. Milwaukee and... and... ? Germany? nahhh great track but economics don't work. Nazareth or Richmond after Indy Car dumps them? For the sake of diversity?
I would say stick with left and right turning and at least attempt to stay a feeder of F-1.
Steve99
02-17-04, 01:10 PM
Another vote for diversity, for all the reasons already mentioned.
devilmaster
02-17-04, 01:48 PM
Although I prefer "diversity" it's what the other guys are going to have. Champ Cars would have fewer token ovals then Indy Car will have token road courses. Milwaukee and... and... ? Germany? nahhh great track but economics don't work. Nazareth or Richmond after Indy Car dumps them? For the sake of diversity?
I would say stick with left and right turning and at least attempt to stay a feeder of F-1.
Guess my first answer was a little vague. But there are enough opinions in this thread from both sides of the equation that I didn't feel I needed to add to it. Ok, i'll type.
If ChampCar can make enough money on the road and street courses to be viable with one or two ovals, then they should keep them for now. If they decide to change the car formula, then i'll be willing to reconsider.
Right now, the biggest money losing races are American ones. When we talk about no TV contract, its an American TV contract. For champcar to be a viable series, it has to look elsewhere for the moment to prop up America. If by going to Seoul and Durban for a guaranteed paycheck from government money, that means we can keep a track like Road America or a Milwaukee, with no government backing, i'm all for it, and I believe that its the way to make this series work.
ChampCar as an entity cannot go re-inventing itself every year. The split was the catalyst that forced ChampCar to constantly change, and the split was the catalyst that made bad ChampCar decisions worse. (All my opinion, of course) Now it needs stability. That means keeping all the tracks that they can without the big money losers. That means accepting some tracks that don't make money at the moment, to allow stability to work and develop new agreements with promoters in America.
PG and the gang (sounds like it should be a musical group), have said they want a 50-50 percent split. If the return to Miami taught us anything, it should be that they have to be selective of what cities to go to. You can't make a long beach east in a day. A permanent track is a good way of saving money (compared to a miami).
If and when ChampCar looks to develop a newly designed car, IMO, then is the time to ask what we need to see in the future. Until then, I don't see a strong enough reason or reasons why they shouldn't keep racing on ovals.
All my opinion of course.
Steve
A day or two later and I am in a somewhat less temperant mode on the subject.
OWRS will run the successor series to the AAA/USAC/CART championship. Ovals are an important part of that heritage. Keeping some good, flatter oval races is the only way to go if a sense of history is to be maintained.
Let the IRL and NASCAR keep the super high banked oval stuff. It's never been "great" racing and only in some periods approached "good". Do your reading in the histories. They can have The Greatest Show on Earth "Sphere of Death" act forever. I want real racing and real sport.
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