Toyota extends Atlantics sponsorship

[jonovision_man]

Until the end of 2005:
http://www.toyotaatlantic.com/News.asp?ID=582

Interesting, seems like Toyota isn't running screaming from Champcars, but rather is keeping a bit of an interest in the organization through Atlantics.

jono

[cart7]

If you stop and think about it, what other legitimate ladder series is there for the earl, IPS? I think not.

[pchall]

If you stop and think about it, what other legitimate ladder series is there for the earl, IPS? I think not.


The political implications of this are very interesting. Atlantics has been a prominent source of IRL drivers. Yet Tony George did not make the series part of his ill-conceived bid for CART assests.

Toyota is inscrutable in this. The blocks and heads for Atlantics have been out of production for ages and the present "new" supply will probably only last through 2005 because of the Hasselgren spec engine rule. Are they tying up the engine supply for another year just to keep the competiion out?

ps this should have been in Ladders, here: http://www.offcamber.net/forums/showthread.php?t=3443

[RTKar]

Heard it on Speed News...very interesting. A smart move by Toyota me thinks :cool: A foreshadowing event? Are the scales starting to tip a little?

[jonovision_man]

ps this should have been in Ladders,

Oops, my bad, maybe it can be moved?

Do Atlantics do much to prepare a driver for IRL, though? I can't see that as the motivation, with only maybe one oval on the schedule for 2004.

jono

[JoeBob]

CART's contract for Long Beach also runs through 2005. Coincidence? I have no idea!

[Ziggy]

"Do Atlantics do much to prepare a driver for IRL, though? I can't see that as the motivation, with only maybe one oval on the schedule for 2004."

Not really, there only rear engine winged racecars. As far as ovals go, this is the way to advance. Just look at the IRL lineup, Billy Boat, Davey Hamilton, Rick Treadway, Andy Mitchner, Dan Drinan, Tyce Carlson, Tony Stewart, Casey Kahne, Ryan Newman, JJ. Yealey, Dave Steele, Tracy Hines, Jeff Gordon, Jason Leffler, Randy Tolsma, Brian Tyler, Paul Durant, Jim Guthrie, Jeff Gordon, Andy Hillenburge. All these fine fellows advanced through the oval experiance.

so how hard do you think it is to drive in the IRL? I think Sam Hornish Jr had one season of Atlantics before his parents decided rather than spend huge money on a lower formula it would be easier to spend the cash with PDM racing and run the Indy 500. How hard do you think it is to plant your foot on the floor, in a car that has thousands of pounds of downforce and drive around in circles? Do you think that message boards full of fans who post about what a joke the IRL are making it up? Sour Grapes? or that it might be that if a driver can excell in an Atlantic Car that it is a pretty good proving ground for an open wheel, higher horsepower, faster terminal speed racing car?

Oval racing set up is determined by an engineer and how big the drivers balls are. A different racecraft is also needed. It appears in the IRL the racecraft is to wait for the big one and see how your doing track position wise.Of course, preferential treatment comes into play, both scenario's are very much like NASCAR.

Crashing on ovals is expensive, I dont see the one Atlantic race on an oval as relevant. I see it as stupid. Atlantic's never ran on ovals pre split. You want to run on ovals, buy a Midget, Sprint or Silvercrown car. Your ultimate destination is NASCAR. Not one short track guy who made his bones in openwheel short track racing is running an openwheel car in either the IRL, or CART (unless you consider Jimmy Vassers brief career in quarter Midgets)

1950 is over

Ziggy

[jonovision_man]

"Do Atlantics do much to prepare a driver for IRL, though? I can't see that as the motivation, with only maybe one oval on the schedule for 2004."

Not really, there only rear engine winged racecars. As far as ovals go, this is the way to advance. Just look at the IRL lineup, Billy Boat, Davey Hamilton, Rick Treadway, Andy Mitchner, Dan Drinan, Tyce Carlson, Tony Stewart, Casey Kahne, Ryan Newman, JJ. Yealey, Dave Steele, Tracy Hines, Jeff Gordon, Jason Leffler, Randy Tolsma, Brian Tyler, Paul Durant, Jim Guthrie, Jeff Gordon, Andy Hillenburge. All these fine fellows advanced through the oval experiance.

so how hard do you think it is to drive in the IRL? I think Sam Hornish Jr had one season of Atlantics before his parents decided rather than spend huge money on a lower formula it would be easier to spend the cash with PDM racing and run the Indy 500. How hard do you think it is to plant your foot on the floor, in a car that has thousands of pounds of downforce and drive around in circles? Do you think that message boards full of fans who post about what a joke the IRL are making it up? Sour Grapes? or that it might be that if a driver can excell in an Atlantic Car that it is a pretty good proving ground for an open wheel, higher horsepower, faster terminal speed racing car?

Oval racing set up is determined by an engineer and how big the drivers balls are. A different racecraft is also needed. It appears in the IRL the racecraft is to wait for the big one and see how your doing track position wise.Of course, preferential treatment comes into play, both scenario's are very much like NASCAR.

Crashing on ovals is expensive, I dont see the one Atlantic race on an oval as relevant. I see it as stupid. Atlantic's never ran on ovals pre split. You want to run on ovals, buy a Midget, Sprint or Silvercrown car. Your ultimate destination is NASCAR. Not one short track guy who made his bones in openwheel short track racing is running an openwheel car in either the IRL, or CART (unless you consider Jimmy Vassers brief career in quarter Midgets)

1950 is over

Ziggy

Right off the bat, I'll just say I recognize that road racing is a much more talent-driven pursuit. Drivers differentiate themselves with their driving talent on road courses, on ovals that differentiation is to a much smaller degree.

But - Oval racing does have certain techniques and characteristics that you can't learn road racing. Sure, you can draft on a road course, but navigating up the field in a pack like in the IRL is different.

I just don't think it's likely that Toyota is supporting Atlantics because it's a great feeder system for the IRL. A far more likely theory is that they want to maintain a presence with the Champcar crowd, especially with the new owners, maybe they believe there is a future opportunity.

IMO. :)

jono

[Ziggy]

Troll

I cant think of one road racer who had trouble in oval track racing. In the past 30 years anyway.

Ziggy

[Insomniac]

It's not really fair to compare TA to IPS. While I could care less about roundy-round racing, IPS hasn't been around long, so you can't really say they're a terrible feeder to the IRL. I'm sure more people will move up in time.

[RTKar]

It's not really fair to compare TA to IPS. While I could care less about roundy-round racing, IPS hasn't been around long, so you can't really say they're a terrible feeder to the IRL. I'm sure more people will move up in time.

I have my doubts. Oval racers are going to NASCAR. Aspiring oval racers go to Busch, ASA, etc... There's a considerable void for open wheel pavement oval racers between the grass roots and the irl. That chasm is not being filled by the IPS. It doesn't have the funding, ownership, influence, nor talent and the best talent will eventually take the route to NASCAR. If Toyota and Honda got involved in the grass roots of driver development and nurtured drivers from early on to IPS and then to irl......that would change the complexion of the game. Really, it's up to what Toyota and Honda want.

[pchall]

Oops, my bad, maybe it can be moved?


Only by da Boss, WB.

[Ziggy]

Insomniac

It's really unfair to even talk about IPS in any context. It is a series born on the premise of "driving another nail" into the roadracers coffin.

It is a crummy series, who's injury rate is right up there with its larger IRL destination series. It is full of second generation never gonna be's, and rich guys who have not enough talent to compete in any other form of racing. I dont know what the car count has been, but under 15 for sure. I know that there where only five cars to test at Homestead.

something tells me you knew all this already.

Ziggy

[jonovision_man]

Troll

I cant think of one road racer who had trouble in oval track racing. In the past 30 years anyway.

Ziggy

Troll? What's up with that? :thumdown: I'm an F1 and CART fan first and foremost, I'm here to talk about racing, and what Toyota's motivation is. I don't think it's to create a feeder for IRL, that's all I'm saying, I think you're reading more into my posts that's not there.

jono

[racer2c]

Troll

I cant think of one road racer who had trouble in oval track racing. In the past 30 years anyway.

Ziggy

I concur. If I were an IRL team owner looking for a young hot-shoe to jump in my car, I'd choose one that came from a road racing background.

Like you mentioned Ziggy, it is well established history that road racers have very little problem jumping onto ovals. It's really just the easiest of all road courses. ;) Just ask JPM. I've never heard F1 drivers who came from Champ Cars say "golly, F1 is neat and all, but I really miss oval racing". :gomer:

[jonovision_man]

I've never heard F1 drivers who came from Champ Cars say "golly, F1 is neat and all, but I really miss oval racing". :gomer:

FWIW, Jacques did... when they went to the USGP he was quoted as saying he wished F1 was doing the full oval. Although that was probably more curiousity about what an F1 car would be like in that kind of race. (My guess - massive engine failure!)

jono

[Insomniac]

I have my doubts. Oval racers are going to NASCAR. Aspiring oval racers go to Busch, ASA, etc... There's a considerable void for open wheel pavement oval racers between the grass roots and the irl. That chasm is not being filled by the IPS. It doesn't have the funding, ownership, influence, nor talent and the best talent will eventually take the route to NASCAR. If Toyota and Honda got involved in the grass roots of driver development and nurtured drivers from early on to IPS and then to irl......that would change the complexion of the game. Really, it's up to what Toyota and Honda want.

Just to be clear, I'm not saying moving up to ChampCars or *gasp* F1. Just the IRL. Look, they get to race on many of the same tracks, hang around the IRL drivers. Some of them are going to move up eventually. They aren't going to be able to pluck F3000 drivers like the ChampCar teams can. One thing is clear, if your aspirations are RR, then the IRL and/or IPS are not the way to go. If it is Indy, then that's probably the best way. Of course, if no one strives to go oval racing at Indy, then all of this is moot. ;)

[Insomniac]

Insomniac

It's really unfair to even talk about IPS in any context. It is a series born on the premise of "driving another nail" into the roadracers coffin.

It is a crummy series, who's injury rate is right up there with its larger IRL destination series. It is full of second generation never gonna be's, and rich guys who have not enough talent to compete in any other form of racing. I dont know what the car count has been, but under 15 for sure. I know that there where only five cars to test at Homestead.

something tells me you knew all this already.

Ziggy

I know why IPS is here. If you don't like the IRL, obviously anything below that isn't going to be better. Your assesment about the make-up of IPS is right, but there are some young guys who could be good. TA isn't that much better as far as the make-up of drivers. There is a mix of guys. People you know who will never move up, rich guys just out there, good drivers who are probably too old and talented drivers who will move up.

I don't care for IPS, but they do have a series set up that would make sense to be the way into the IRL as opposed to another series. Whether it will actually work, only time will tell.

[JT265]

Right off the bat, I'll just say I recognize that road racing is a much more talent-driven pursuit. Drivers differentiate themselves with their driving talent on road courses, on ovals that differentiation is to a much smaller degree.

But - Oval racing does have certain techniques and characteristics that you can't learn road racing. Sure, you can draft on a road course, but navigating up the field in a pack like in the IRL is different.

I just don't think it's likely that Toyota is supporting Atlantics because it's a great feeder system for the IRL. A far more likely theory is that they want to maintain a presence with the Champcar crowd, especially with the new owners, maybe they believe there is a future opportunity.

IMO. :)

jono


If you want to hone that "move up thru the pack" skill that you can only get on OHvals (C) BiF#, jump onto the big highway and draft you way past a cluster of trucks.

[RichK]

TA isn't that much better as far as the make-up of drivers.

Oh. My. God. You seriously think that you can make that statement about the following two lists of drivers?

2003 Toyota Atlantic Standings

1 A.J. Allmendinger (R) 201 187 14
2 Ryan Dalziel 175 154 21
3 Michael Valiante 161 156 5
4 Jonathan Macri 145 133 12
5 Aaron Justus (R) 123 112 11
6 Danica Patrick (R) 109 99 10
7 Joey Hand 108 101 7
8 Luis Diaz 88 85 3
9 Alex Figge 87 78 9
10 Kyle Krisiloff 77 61 16
11 Alex Garcia 60 56 4
12 Eric Jensen 49 49 0
13 Stephan C. Roy 48 40 8
14 Bryan Sellers (R) 30 30 0
15 Jon Fogarty 24 24 0
16 Philip Fayer (R) 24 24 0
17 Marc Breuers (R) 12 12 0
18 Louis-Philippe Dumoulin (R) 11 11 0
19 Marc DeVellis (R) 9 9 0
20 Romain Dumas (R) 7 7 0
21 Tony Ave 6 0 6
22 Dan Selznick (R) 5 5 0
23 Hoover Orsi 2 0 2
24 Eduardo Figueroa





2003 IPS Standings

1 Mark Taylor 482
2 Jeff Simmons 407
3 Ed Carpenter 377
4 Thiago Medeiros 371
5 Cory Witherill 336
6 Aaron Fike 328
7 Arie Luyendyk Jr. 299
8 Tom Wood 235
9 Paul Dana 234
10 Gary Peterson 217
11 Brandon Erwin 213
12 Matt Beardsley 184
13 G.J. Mennen 175
14 Jonathan Urlin 166
15 Marty Roth 124
16 Billy Roe 107
17 Ronnie Johncox 62
18 Ross Fonferko 52
19 Rolando Quintanilla 48
20 Taylor Fletcher 47
21 Marco Cioci 40
22 Tony Ave 35
23 Brad Pollard 34
24 Dane Carter 22
25 David Steele 19
26 Tony Turco 19
27 Scott Harrington 18
28 Moses Smith 17
29 Lloyd Mack 14
30 Craig Dollansky 13

[JT265]

WOW Rich!

The last time Scott Harrington scored that high was on a Kentucky breathalyzer.

[theunions]

I cant think of one road racer who had trouble in oval track racing. In the past 30 years anyway.

Gordon Smiley?

Jim Hickman?

[FCYTravis]

GOOD road-racers. You can name a blizzard of bad road racers who were also bad at ovals, surprise surprise. No disrespect to Gordon's memory intended but I wasn't aware that he was particularly outstanding - just a decent journeyman who really didn't need to have his name dragged into this. Maybe he would have gone on to greater things... but we'll never know. :cry:

[Insomniac]

Oh. My. God. You seriously think that you can make that statement about the following two lists of drivers?

2003 Toyota Atlantic Standings

1 A.J. Allmendinger (R) 201 187 14
2 Ryan Dalziel 175 154 21
3 Michael Valiante 161 156 5
4 Jonathan Macri 145 133 12
5 Aaron Justus (R) 123 112 11
6 Danica Patrick (R) 109 99 10
7 Joey Hand 108 101 7
8 Luis Diaz 88 85 3
9 Alex Figge 87 78 9
10 Kyle Krisiloff 77 61 16
11 Alex Garcia 60 56 4
12 Eric Jensen 49 49 0
13 Stephan C. Roy 48 40 8
14 Bryan Sellers (R) 30 30 0
15 Jon Fogarty 24 24 0
16 Philip Fayer (R) 24 24 0
17 Marc Breuers (R) 12 12 0
18 Louis-Philippe Dumoulin (R) 11 11 0
19 Marc DeVellis (R) 9 9 0
20 Romain Dumas (R) 7 7 0
21 Tony Ave 6 0 6
22 Dan Selznick (R) 5 5 0
23 Hoover Orsi 2 0 2
24 Eduardo Figueroa





2003 IPS Standings

1 Mark Taylor 482
2 Jeff Simmons 407
3 Ed Carpenter 377
4 Thiago Medeiros 371
5 Cory Witherill 336
6 Aaron Fike 328
7 Arie Luyendyk Jr. 299
8 Tom Wood 235
9 Paul Dana 234
10 Gary Peterson 217
11 Brandon Erwin 213
12 Matt Beardsley 184
13 G.J. Mennen 175
14 Jonathan Urlin 166
15 Marty Roth 124
16 Billy Roe 107
17 Ronnie Johncox 62
18 Ross Fonferko 52
19 Rolando Quintanilla 48
20 Taylor Fletcher 47
21 Marco Cioci 40
22 Tony Ave 35
23 Brad Pollard 34
24 Dane Carter 22
25 David Steele 19
26 Tony Turco 19
27 Scott Harrington 18
28 Moses Smith 17
29 Lloyd Mack 14
30 Craig Dollansky 13

Technically, I said TA was better than IPS. ;) But seriously, my point was that TA isn't filled with a bunch of future OW stars either. I know we all harp about them not getting chances in CART, but the reality is it is more than only sponsorship. It's a nice excuse for some. There are/were teams like Forsythe, N/H, Penske, TCGR and TKG that had/have no sponsor issues. They are in a position to take whoever they want. They want to win, so they're going with talent. None of those drivers are ride buyers. Does anyone actually think for a minute AJ Almendinger wouldn't be in ChampCar this year because he isn't bringing money with him? I'm not saying there aren't some guys in TA better than some ride buyers, but the best are moving up. There are guys who have been in TA for years and they just aren't going to make the move. I can't really comment on every IPS driver or TA driver, but I stand by what I said about the make-up of the drivers. The proportions are different, but they both have those groups of drivers.