Adios St. Pete

[Dougrun]

link (http://www.baynews9.com/site/content/34201.html) :(

[Insomniac]

Hmmm, I wonder what all happened there? I know they weren't going to race this month and were planning to reschedule. Maybe they couldn't get a date? Starting the season that early was always a bad idea.

[Lizzerd]

That article is very poorly written, it really doesn't say anything.


"Unfortunately, because of legal problems, it's not going to run this weekend and it's going to be more and more difficult to do this here as we go forward," said St. Petersburg Mayor, Rick Baker.

Yeah, we knew it wasn't going to race this weekend, but the first sentence says


No more race cars will zoom through the city of St. Petersburg because the Grand Prix attraction is history.

It doesn't really say that the event is off for the entire season. Or does it? I can't tell.

[Brickman]

Once you take a street race off I think it's difficult to get it rescheduled. That's even if there are no other economic factors.

[RTKar]

Too bad. One of the only street courses worth a damn and one of the few I'd like to have attended. St. Pete had a lot of potential, more so than most any other city/street race. Hopefully the differences can be resolved and the race can be rescheduled next season.

[nrc]

This is the problem with the effort to hatch a bunch of big street races all at once. They take years to turn into something big and successful and CART didn't have the pulling power or the bankroll to make that happen before they ran out of money. Then you end up with a schedule that has very little stability and nothing consistant. It's hard to rebuild a series around a musical schedule. I have the same fear with the big overseas events that are being talked about.

[Racing Truth]

Once you take a street race off I think it's difficult to get it rescheduled. That's even if there are no other economic factors.

Yep, plus the city might have other events planned that would require those streets to be open.

Good event, and I DON'T think we've seen it for the last time.

[wood-eye]

Lots of information available as to what the real issues were...much speculation here that's just that. :shakehead

The sad news is that not only do we lose a great race but a great loss of monies that would have been injected into the local economy.

[mueber]

I drove from Fort Wayne, leaving snow and sleet, to St. Petersburg, enjoying sun and warm temperatures, and a great race and circuit last year. If I remember correctly, Wood-Eye posted photos of the 7thgear get-together on a web site. I had a great time.

It was just the right event, in just the right place, at just the right time. I just find in hard to believe that everybody can’t get through this with a reasonable profit if they try.

[Mike Kellner]

Although that is a terrible article, it is possible to glean some info from it.

""Unfortunately, because of legal problems, it's not going to run this weekend and it's going to be more and more difficult to do this here as we go forward," said St. Petersburg Mayor, Rick Baker.

The former general manager of the race, Tom Begley, filed a lawsuit.

He is suing the auto racing groups that purchased the rights to the race from him last year, saying he's still owed hundreds of thousands of dollars. "

It sounds like Tom Begley is suing because CART went bankrupt and owes him money. I can see his point. He didn't get paid for what he sold CART, so he wants it back, but I don't think bankruptcy laws work that way.

Too bad. It could have been a great event.

Hey, if they hold it at a different date, and rename it, is it still his event, or does it become a different event, immune from this type of suit.

mk

[Andrew Longman]

I think another issue, from an earlier article, is that the city/promoter weren't too keen on the date change. Mid/late-May in St Pete is getting hot. Sitting in the stands, or even going outside is not something people do a lot of in Summer down there. This race belongs in Feb or late in the season.

[Mike Kellner]

We go to Florida every year in mid June. It is usually 90+ and humid every day. Being a northern boy, I about wilt in those conditions, but the locals don't seem to notice it much.

Still, it would be best to run the race while the winter crowd is in Florida, the weather is nicer there, and unsuitable for racing up north. I think this year, with everything being up in the air until so late, it is just one of those unfortunate events we all wish wouldn't have happened. I hope they can work it out for next year.

mk

[bigdcart]

The ole '04 schedule is starting to look pretty lean. Maybe Pook shouldn't have dismissed and alientated the management of Mid-Ohio so quickly.

[Ankf00]

The ole '04 schedule is starting to look pretty lean. Maybe Pook shouldn't have dismissed and alientated the management of Mid-Ohio so quickly.

it's not like the track owner did her part either,

grand-am for ALMS, phase 1.

******* for CART, phase 2?

[JLMannin]

The ole '04 schedule is starting to look pretty lean. Maybe Pook shouldn't have dismissed and alientated the management of Mid-Ohio so quickly.

:rolleyes:

[4wheeldrifter]

Too bad. One of the only street courses worth a damn and one of the few I'd like to have attended. St. Pete had a lot of potential, more so than most any other city/street race. Hopefully the differences can be resolved and the race can be rescheduled next season.

Agree 100%. If nothing else, maybe they can learn something from St. Pete's about street course design and apply that to some of the other cities. Denver, Houston, and Miami come immediately to mind.

[Ankf00]

houston's downtown is mostly a grid, no track worth a damn's going to be formed there.

[Dougrun]

do a S.F. race at the presidio.. :gomer:
http://www.phototiming.com/presidio.jpg

[Dougrun]

or a cleveland-esque race at moffet AFB..
http://www.phototiming.com/moffett.jpg

[Rob]

For what it's worth, Champweb says the race isn't dead yet. The shocker is that they say that Mid-Ohio might be used as a substitute venue. That would be great for me, but I'll believe it when I see it.

[JT265]

For what it's worth, Champweb says the race isn't dead yet. The shocker is that they say that Mid-Ohio might be used as a substitute venue. That would be great for me, but I'll believe it when I see it.


G-Rob, ;), that'd be cool!

Oh, and welcome! :thumbup:

[Rob]

St. Pete is officially cancelled. (http://www.cart.com/News/Article.asp?ID=7534) :(

Man I hope M-O can come to fruition. We need some races out east here.

[Robstar]

:thumdown: :thumdown:

[Railbird]

I think the May 15/16 weekend needs to stay on the schedule, could a Mid Ohio track rental fill the bill?

[Chaos]

I think the May 15/16 weekend needs to stay on the schedule, could a Mid Ohio track rental fill the bill?

if that were the case, OWRS would take a financial pounding, unless they can get the track for really really cheap.

[Railbird]

they're gonna take a financial pounding this year one way or the other, it might as well favor me.

Hopefully next year will be different, but for this season they need some dates with some fans.

[theunions]

I think the May 15/16 weekend needs to stay on the schedule, could a Mid Ohio track rental fill the bill?

The inaugural Mansfield Craftsman Truck race (go figure) is that same weekend.

[Chaos]

they're gonna take a financial pounding this year one way or the other, it might as well favor me.

Hopefully next year will be different, but for this season they need some dates with some fans.

good point

[bigdcart]

they're gonna take a financial pounding this year one way or the other, it might as well favor me.

Hopefully next year will be different, but for this season they need some dates with some fans.
I'll go and bring some friends!

[jonovision_man]

The schedule is looking pretty grim... they have some good races, but we're looking at a short season, 12-14 or so?

http://www.cart.com/Event/EventSchedule.asp?Year=2004

Long Beach
Monterrey Mexico
Milwaukee
Portland
Cleveland
Toronto
Vancouver
Road America
Denver
Montreal
Laguna Seca
Australia

Las Vegas - TBA - when?
St Petes - TBD - dead
Miami - TBD - dead
Mexico City - TBD - presumably a definate go, date tbd I guess
Seoul - TBD
Fontana - TBD

jono

[racer2c]

The schedule is looking pretty grim... they have some good races, but we're looking at a short season, 12-14 or so?

http://www.cart.com/Event/EventSchedule.asp?Year=2004

Long Beach
Monterrey Mexico
Milwaukee
Portland
Cleveland
Toronto
Vancouver
Road America
Denver
Montreal
Laguna Seca
Australia

Las Vegas - TBA - when?
St Petes - TBD - dead
Miami - TBD - dead
Mexico City - TBD - presumably a definate go, date tbd I guess
Seoul - TBD
Fontana - TBD

jono


Grim?

[jonovision_man]

Grim?

There's still a lot up in the air, and we're looking at much fewer races than last year and a lot of big gaps.

jono

[Brickman]

Grim?

Naahhhh

One would guess 2005 will have worst aspects when the IRL attempts to cherry pick venues.

2004 is pretty solid. IMHO


There's still a lot up in the air, and we're looking at much fewer races than last year and a lot of big gaps.

jono


I think you need to look at it as a whole new series not CART II. It's not CART, no more than the IRL was in 1996.

The IRL started with less races in their first season.

[racer2c]

Slim maybe, but not grim. Grim would be no races.

Champ Car over came it's "two minutes to mid-night" and if twelve races is what we get, I'm still thrilled.

If twelve races gives some the perception of 'grimness' after a dramatic victory over non-existence, I question their intent.

[Brickman]

I would say grin not grim. :D

[jonovision_man]

Slim maybe, but not grim. Grim would be no races.

Champ Car over came it's "two minutes to mid-night" and if twelve races is what we get, I'm still thrilled.

If twelve races gives some the perception of 'grimness' after a dramatic victory over non-existence, I question their intent.

Maybe grim is a bit harsh, but really they did raise expectations significantly that we would see a full field and full calendar. It's been one cancellation after another, with few confirmations so far.

If they want to succeed, they're going to have to get some continuity in the schedule. Races shouldn't blink in and out of existence, and there shouldn't be month-long gaps.

Sure, it's better than nothing, it's better than IRL, but they do seem to be starting off by repeating some past mistakes.

jono

[racer2c]

Maybe grim is a bit harsh, but really they did raise expectations significantly that we would see a full field and full calendar. It's been one cancellation after another, with few confirmations so far.

If they want to succeed, they're going to have to get some continuity in the schedule. Races shouldn't blink in and out of existence, and there shouldn't be month-long gaps.

Sure, it's better than nothing, it's better than IRL, but they do seem to be starting off by repeating some past mistakes.

jono

It is my opinion that this new group in getting off the ground (and we need to remember that it is a new entity getting off the ground) will have some hurdles to overcome in order to get to the point of "continuity", but they are working through the issues. Races do come and go. It's the nature of motorsport. Is Champ Car announcing a set schedule and then backing out of races as the year progresses? No. There hasn't been an official schedule to date.

This is year 1 for the CCWS. It's only up from here.

I agree with you on the continuity angle and I wrote about that here recently. One report about the South Africa race said the discussions revolved around a five year contract so it seems as if the new owners also understand the importance of continuity.

[jonovision_man]

It is my opinion that this new group in getting off the ground (and we need to remember that it is a new entity getting off the ground) will have some hurdles to overcome in order to get to the point of "continuity", but they are working through the issues. Races do come and go. It's the nature of motorsport. Is Champ Car announcing a set schedule and then backing out of races as the year progresses? No. There hasn't been an official schedule to date.

This is year 1 for the CCWS. It's only up from here.

I agree with you on the continuity angle and I wrote about that here recently. One report about the South Africa race said the discussions revolved around a five year contract so it seems as if the new owners also understand the importance of continuity.

Fair enough.

Looking back:
2003 - 19 races scheduled, one cancellation.
2002 - 19
2001 - 21
2000 - 20

We've come to expect a LOT of races, more than F1, more than IRL. Maybe the old owners spread themselves too thin, and with tight budgets less may be good for the series in the long run.

I still hold out some hope those "TBA's" and "TBD's" will turn into confirmed dates, and we can end up somewhere around 15 or so.

jono

[Turn7]

Simple marketing.

Trickle out the bad news first.

Have a seperation period.

Come out with a bang. Release enough good news so that the distant bad news doesn't seem that bad.

CART would always release some good news, then some bad news, then some good news, then some bad news......

What you ended up with was as much negativity as there was positive outlooks.

Before you turn your back and focus on the small infinate details. Give it some time and view the whole picture. They are setting the foundation for the series and it is in an ugly stage at the moment. It will all come together in due time.

[mueber]

whatever
jono

Ah yes, the more things change, the more they stay the same. :shakehead

[skaven]

There's still a lot up in the air, and we're looking at much fewer races than last year and a lot of big gaps.

jono

Fewer races certainly, but per the http://www.cart.com/Event/EventSchedule.asp?Year=2004 , we are in pretty good shape regarding continuity except for the obligatory month off after the first race - they need to fix this one day.

April - 1
May - 1 (or 2 if Vegas goes - and keep in mind that St. Pete was to have been in May as well which would have made 2 or 3. At least the new CCWS isn't shy about racing in May :) )
June - 2
July - 3
August - 3
Sep - 1

Then you have to wait a month for Australia in October. They might be able to fill in this gap with Mexico City, etc.

So, they seem to have trimmed from the ends and left us a much tighter schedule. I think it's a pretty good job for the first year considering the forces arrayed against them.

[jonovision_man]

So, they seem to have trimmed from the ends and left us a much tighter schedule. I think it's a pretty good job for the first year considering the forces arrayed against them.

It's not terrible, there are a few gaps of 4 weeks or so though, presumably those won't make it to 2005. I think they (KK specifically) mentionned Bernie's success with F1 in making a habit for Europeans to tune in every two weeks. That kind of predictability helps.

jono

[Mach1]

Naahhhh

One would guess 2005 will have worst aspects when the IRL attempts to cherry pick venues.

2004 is pretty solid. IMHO




I think you need to look at it as a whole new series not CART II. It's not CART, no more than the IRL was in 1996.

The IRL started with less races in their first season.

Your compairing appels to oranges. The IRL started out with nothing. No teams, sponsers, venues and used equipment and to an extent, no established fans. All they had was Indy. OWRS has the advantage of teams, sponsers, manufactures, established fans and venues. All for $3.5 M.

OWRS has a long exensive road ahead. They need to invest their capital wisely. If they only can afford to run 15 events the first year, then so be it.

[Brickman]

Your compairing appels to oranges. The IRL started out with nothing. No teams, sponsers, venues and used equipment and to an extent, no established fans. All they had was Indy. OWRS has the advantage of teams, sponsers, manufactures, established fans and venues. All for $3.5 M.

OWRS has a long exensive road ahead. They need to invest their capital wisely. If they only can afford to run 15 events the first year, then so be it.

Apples, Oranges, Banannas, it doesn't matter. Even though some think I have a different agenda I think Champ Car World Series is a whole new ball game, they deserve some slack, TV? No hassles from me. Safety?? As I stated earlier no BIG deal. It's a new series although although some hear bumps in the dark where there are none. I think OWRS deserves a chance to do better than CART did.

I do agree that they must pinch their pennies, it's not a time to emulate CART and promote races just to lose millions. They actually have a better foundation then most ever dream of.

[skaven]

It's not terrible, there are a few gaps of 4 weeks or so though, presumably those won't make it to 2005. I think they (KK specifically) mentionned Bernie's success with F1 in making a habit for Europeans to tune in every two weeks. That kind of predictability helps.

jono

Me: "pretty good"

You: "not terrible"

I don't know whether to :rolleyes: or :laugh: . Either way, I guess we just see things differently, so I'll just :laugh: at the half full/ empty glasses we wear. They tried to address the gap at the beginning by moving St. Pete and have some options yet to address the gap at the end of the year. When all is said and done though, I still think they did a "pretty good" job with the pieces they had to work with. :thumbup:

[jonovision_man]

Me: "pretty good"

You: "not terrible"



I don't think we're that far apart...

If you compare to bankruptcy, sure, it looks "pretty good".

If you compare to 2003 and earlier, it's "not terrible".

Either way, we're on the same side in the end, we'll both be watching CART and attending race(s), and we're hopeful that 2005 will look better than 2004.

Right? :)

jono

[skaven]

Yeah. I'll give you that. :)

Only problem is I don't have cable, so I don't know how many races I'll be watching. But I'll deal with that when the time come.