Field of 33 "not important" to Tony George

[WickerBill]

http://www.indystar.com/articles/4/127810-5764-102.html


I have a very high tolerance for idiots (I live in Indianapolis and am a ChampCar fan), but is this REALLY the same guy who just said a couple of months ago that he loved open wheel racing and it's tradition more than anyone else??

[mapguy]

Thanks Toney. :thumdown:

Of course the lemmings over on turdforum are in complete denial. (http://www.trackforum.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=39770) "There will be 33 cars, period" "Bet the farm on it"

And these tools called us ostriches. :shakehead :gomer:

[Railbird]

TG, and what he's done to Indy, makes me sick.

protect and preserve indeed.

[RTKar]

I don't know what to say about IMS and tg anymore but I do know I'm sick of what he's single handedly done to a race I anxiously awaited and enjoyed every May.

[chop456]

No problem, Tony.

Pretty soon it will be a field of 43.

[Jag_Warrior]

Thanks Toney. :thumdown:

Of course the lemmings over on turdforum are in complete denial. (http://www.trackforum.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=39770) "There will be 33 cars, period" "Bet the farm on it"

And these tools called us ostriches. :shakehead :gomer:

Maybe 33 cars, but will there be 33 engines? :laugh:

[Insomniac]

Maybe 33 cars, but will there be 33 engines? :laugh:

The engines will just be an excuse.

[4wheeldrifter]

http://sports.excite.com/news/03082004/v0085.html

Looks like perhaps ToeKnee will have one more field-filler in the way of Robby "This car's a pig" Gordon.

BTW... thanks again ToeKnee for fixing US openwheel. :thumdown:

[4wheeldrifter]

Just wanted to add...

George said other Speedway employees are more concerned with the traditional 33-car field than he is.

That's rich. What version are we up to now? Anyone know?

[Don Quixote]

First it was "bump day". That became "fill day". Now will it be "quality not quantity day"? I sure wish Haas wouldn't help them get to 33.

[cart7]

I saw a post on TF where someone is suggesting upping the payout for the 500 to generate more outside interest. :rolleyes: How rich.

Wasn't one of the inheritors fears that Cart would want more money just for showing up?
Wasn't one of the reasons to protect the 500 was the engine lease deals causing a lack of motors available for outside participants and thus, the field of 33 was threatened?
Wasn't a couple of "off the cuff" remarks by a couple of Cart participants about shortening the month of May by a week so Cart could run another race in May enough to create a "call to arms" about Cart not respecting Indy tradition??

Good grief, this idiot is doing more damage to the 500 than Cart could have ever done.

:gomer:

[racer2c]

I saw a post on TF where someone is suggesting upping the payout for the 500 to generate more outside interest. :rolleyes: How rich.

Wasn't one of the inheritors fears that Cart would want more money just for showing up?
Wasn't one of the reasons to protect the 500 was the engine lease deals causing a lack of motors available for outside participants and thus, the field of 33 was threatened?
Wasn't a couple of "off the cuff" remarks by a couple of Cart participants about shortening the month of May by a week so Cart could run another race in May enough to create a "call to arms" about Cart not respecting Indy tradition??

Good grief, this idiot is doing more damage to the 500 than Cart could have ever done.

:gomer:

Good post! :thumbup:

[DaveL]

What CART7 said.

A CART owner makes a remark that they could do Indy quals in one weekend and the entire organization is treated like an invading Mongol heard out to destroy IMS tradition. Tony says that and goes further to say that 33 cars aren't important to him, and hes the Saviour of Indy tradition.

The hypocracy and outright lies are enough to drive a nun to drinking.

[Ruok]

...Wasn't one of the inheritors fears that Cart would want more money just for showing up?
Wasn't one of the reasons to protect the 500 was the engine lease deals causing a lack of motors available for outside participants and thus, the field of 33 was threatened?
Wasn't a couple of "off the cuff" remarks by a couple of Cart participants about shortening the month of May by a week so Cart could run another race in May enough to create a "call to arms" about Cart not respecting Indy tradition??...


I think about these and more every time I peruse TF. It would be nice if somebody put together a list of the so-called 'ills' of CART and compared them with the unreality of todays IRL. Off the top of my head the only thing 'solved' by the IRL is 'leadership' by a single person.

Then again if lower car counts and lower ratings are perceived as 'growth' in the bizarro world that is the IRL, I don't know what good this list would do. If nothing else it would be interesting to see. I don't know if it would make me laugh or cry, probably both. Anybody with some spare time?

[Brickman]

Just as NASCAR (http://autoweek.com/cat_content.mv?port_code=autoweek&cat_code=motorsportsnews&loc_code=index&content_code=08118802) puts on a spin about their situation I think George is doing the same.

For NASCAR's season they could have less, the Indy 500 needs 33.

What was the farthest back a starter came forward to win the 500?

[DaveL]

Give it up Brickman.

Idiotgrandson has proven beyond a reasonable doubt that he doesn't have any idea what he is doing. Considering the IRL was created, we presume, to preserve the traditions of Indy and lower the cost of participation thereby making running Indy more obtainable for more teams, than the IRL is the biggest failure in modern history of motorsports. Either that, or all the talk about said reasons for creating the IRL were just a Big Lie to dupe the unsuspected.

Me, I think it's both.

Oh, and Johnny Rutherford won in 1974 after starting 25th. And just what point are you trying to prove by asking the question anyway?

[Steve99]

I actually think we should reduce it; that's how I feel today. But that might change next week, next month or next year. -- TG

I think that part in bold sums up the vision.

[Racewriter]

This has gotta be one of the saddest things I've ever seen in racing.

[Steve99]

Wasn't one of the inheritors fears that Cart would want more money just for showing up?
Wasn't one of the reasons to protect the 500 was the engine lease deals causing a lack of motors available for outside participants and thus, the field of 33 was threatened?
Wasn't a couple of "off the cuff" remarks by a couple of Cart participants about shortening the month of May by a week so Cart could run another race in May enough to create a "call to arms" about Cart not respecting Indy tradition??

Good grief, this idiot is doing more damage to the 500 than Cart could have ever done.


I was getting ready to say the same thing. :thumbup: :gomer:

[Turn7]

[my prediction]

In 2007 both the IRL and NASCAR will work together for the better of the sport of auto racing. In an attempt to counter public disgust in the tradition of 33 cars for the Indy 500 not being achieved and to the NASCAR Playoff of the top 10, the two series will enter a joint venture and move the Indy 500 from Memorial Day to Labor Day.

The field of open wheel cars will be replaced by stock cars and the 33 loser's from NASCAR will race at Indy to see who will get the coveted "11th entry" to compete for the NASCAR championship along with the top 10 season points leaders.

This will again add legitimacy to the speedway and create an sense of importance.

[/my prediction]

[racer2c]

'Decades of tradition took a decade to destroy.' the racing journals will write. It takes time to ease a new series into the main slot.

I wonder if they will announce the takeover in Indy or Daytona? I write that with a prolific sadness for what once was, not a snide jib.

[Brickman]

Give it up Brickman.

Idiotgrandson has proven beyond a reasonable doubt that he doesn't have any idea what he is doing. Considering the IRL was created, we presume, to preserve the traditions of Indy and lower the cost of participation thereby making running Indy more obtainable for more teams, than the IRL is the biggest failure in modern history of motorsports. Either that, or all the talk about said reasons for creating the IRL were just a Big Lie to dupe the unsuspected.

Me, I think it's both.

Oh, and Johnny Rutherford won in 1974 after starting 25th. And just what point are you trying to prove by asking the question anyway?

Give it up Dave. ;)

I agree that he doesn't seem to know what he is doing.

You know why I asked about the farthest back question, because tradition is tradition but winning comes from the front of the field not the back. It's a no brainer on both counts. Will the lack of 33 hurt the race? Nope. Is it a sign of how tenuous things are? Yep. Why? The same thing that screwed CART, heavy manufacturer involvment. But that's a whole other discussion.

I thought the answer was going to be Unser in 86'.

[Brickman]

Oh... and as far as this quote "I actually think we should reduce it; that's how I feel today. But that might change next week, next month or next year."

I could honestly say FTG. As dumb a statement as I have ever heard him make. Shows a complte lack of understanding about tradition, tradition made the Indy 500 not the other way around. :shakehead:

[nrc]

Will the lack of 33 hurt the race? Nope. Is it a sign of how tenuous things are? Yep. Why? The same thing that screwed CART, heavy manufacturer involvment. But that's a whole other discussion.

Ever since 1995 we've been hearing this over and over. Will not having CART's stars hurt the race? Nope. Will not having two weekends of qualifying hurt the race? Nope. Will not going back to two weeks of qualifying hurt the race? Nope. Will no real bumping hurt the race? Nope. Nope. Nope. Nope. And yet we continue to see less and less interest as "the greatest spectacle in racing" becomes less great and less spectacular one piece at a time.

Yes, Tony George sold out to the manufacturers to get their money, just as CART's owners did. But it was George's stupidity that left the sport in a position where it needed the manufacturer money to keep it afloat and left it dealing with the manufacturers from a position of weakness.

Comparing George's hypocrisy to NASCAR's spin is specious at best. The Frances built NASCAR from the ground up. They didn't hijack the sport at the height of its popularity claiming that they were going to save it from exactly the problems they're now denying.

[RichK]

Will the lack of 33 hurt the race? Nope.

It's strange that knowledgable ChampCar fans are the ones who are most offended & saddened by the erosion of tradition and the loss of the sparkle of the Indianapolis 500.

[Racewriter]

It's strange that knowledgable ChampCar fans are the ones who are most offended & saddened by the erosion of tradition and the loss of the sparkle of the Indianapolis 500.

I don't think that's necessarily true.

[RichK]

I don't think that's necessarily true.

You are right, of course (especially in your case). I find it strange, though, how so many IRL fans seem to embrace the "changes" at the Speedway.

[Racewriter]

You are right, of course (especially in your case). I find it strange, though, how so many IRL fans seem to embrace the "changes" at the Speedway.

I know what you mean, but check out this thread:

http://www.trackforum.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=39880

[Brickman]

It's strange that knowledgable ChampCar fans are the ones who are most offended & saddened by the erosion of tradition and the loss of the sparkle of the Indianapolis 500.

The racing action... no. The sparkle? Of course.

[WickerBill]

Mario won from 32nd place in 1981. Then Penske stole it in the courts.

[Brickman]

Ever since 1995 we've been hearing this over and over. Will not having CART's stars hurt the race? Nope. Will not having two weekends of qualifying hurt the race? Nope. Will not going back to two weeks of qualifying hurt the race? Nope. Will no real bumping hurt the race? Nope. Nope. Nope. Nope. And yet we continue to see less and less interest as "the greatest spectacle in racing" becomes less great and less spectacular one piece at a time.

Yes, Tony George sold out to the manufacturers to get their money, just as CART's owners did. But it was George's stupidity that left the sport in a position where it needed the manufacturer money to keep it afloat and left it dealing with the manufacturers from a position of weakness.

Comparing George's hypocrisy to NASCAR's spin is specious at best. The Frances built NASCAR from the ground up. They didn't hijack the sport at the height of its popularity claiming that they were going to save it from exactly the problems they're now denying.

Not having CART stars was dumb. Not having two weekends of qualifying was dumb. Not having real bumping was/is dumb.... the list is long.

Once you disenfranchise fans it's hard if not impossible to get them back.

George is spinning a new deal that just won't work. PR won't do it any good. I was comparing the spin, the situations are totally different, NASCAR could afford to lose races, could afford to lose field fillers. The IRL can't afford to lose a single soul.

[CART T. Katz]

from autoracingfan2 via tf:
The Indy 500 should not be shortening its field. If this keeps up, this fan will eventually get fed up with the lack of tradition and the way the IRL is headed. I'm okay for now, but if this happens, this fan will be that much closer to looking elsewhere for his racing entertainment.

it took that long to figure out, eh?

[RichK]

I know what you mean, but check out this thread:

http://www.trackforum.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=39880


I am truly surprised.

[Racewriter]

I am truly surprised.

Honestly, me too. There are some that I'm not surprised at, but some of the reactions literally had me on the ceiling.

[lone_groover]

It affects everybody. Fewer than 33 "bad boys" on the Hooterville grid might even put a damper on kikigirl/bjfan's imaginary love life.

That's bad.

:cry:

[racer2c]

A leader with real vision would have established a built in action plan for maintaining the health of their crown jewel from the outset of their newly imposed 'league'. This is the Indy 500 for goodness sakes and they can't get 33 cars in the field? Somethings wrong with this picture, and that something is a hidden agenda.

[Insomniac]

TG realized even with Indy, they needed to be CART to beat CART. And that is exactly what he has done. He has coveted and taken everything CART had systematically. He either took too much or needs to to take more.

[Redwing]

The plan is to have a 25/8 rule this year. As in, "Hopefully we'll have 25 starters, the other 8 aren't showing up".

[pinniped]

Latest in a long line of other things that Tony George apparently didn't find important, including ratings, competition, crowd size, engine leases, brazilian ride buyers etc...where is the yawn smilie

[Don Quixote]

I know what you mean, but check out this thread:

http://www.trackforum.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=39880
Wow, TG's offended some real die hards with this one.

[Wheel-Nut]

I know what you mean, but check out this thread:

http://www.trackforum.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=39880


Wow! That thread is 7 pages long and not one mention of a tenderloin!

[Racing Truth]

Hey, I'm sure glad the 500 is safe. :rolleyes: :flame:

Judging from the TF reaction, Tony FINALLY went WAYYYY too far this time. Maybe the fallout will give IMS the wakeup call it needed. Then again, maybe not.

[cart7]

That does it, I'm going over to TF(even though I'm now officially banned) and join in on the Email witch hunt for Tony. I'm suggesting TG start a new league, it's purpose? To secure the integrity and traditions of the 500 that the first league he formed, the irl, is now threatening. I'm gonna suggest the whole oval format thingie along with the oval short tracker thingie. I'll also throw in some junk about engine leases, foreign road racers and rich, self serving team owners, shortening the month of May, etc. I'll bet the USAC crowd will jump right on just like they did the last time. Whew! Wish me luck. :gomer:

[racer2c]

That does it, I'm going over to TF(even though I'm now officially banned) and join in on the Email witch hunt for Tony. I'm suggesting TG start a new league, it's purpose? To secure the integrity and traditions of the 500 that the first league he formed, the irl, is now threatening. I'm gonna suggest the whole oval format thingie along with the oval short tracker thingie. I'll also throw in some junk about engine leases, foreign road racers and rich, self serving team owners, shortening the month of May, etc. I'll bet the USAC crowd will jump right on just like they did the last time. Whew! Wish me luck. :gomer:

Don't forget the return of the front engine!

[Ziggy]

Well, I wanted to chime in, but some many things have already been said.... like the seven years I have been on Internet message boards.

One of the things that I hold irrevocable are those fans who supported the vision from the get go. The one's who rationalized the need for the league, then championed it's cause to anyone who dared question it's purpose.

Autoracing is a consuming business, based on technical know how. It has always been about how much money you have, since day one. The formation of any league to buck this basic philosophy was horsefeathers from day one.

There are alot of things in life I dont know about. Autoracing is not one of them.

From Tony George's full page ad in the Indianapolis Star in 1996 where he stated the formation of this league was to preserve the traditions that He and others feared where being eroded by greedy sanctioning bodies as well as car owners, to the Lemming scum who have posted the merits of Tony's vision from day one, only to realize it was a house of cards, let me say this

You where so smart
You got what you wanted
Hope you enjoy Your NASCAR (it's so riveting)



Ziggy

[mueber]

This is great news.

Twenty-eight cars this year, twenty cars next year, fifteen the year after that, forty-three stock cars the year after that. Then, and only then, we can start to build and open wheel series that is worth competing in. Sooner the better.

[racer2c]

Oh, the engines in the new Indy Cars need to be push-rod based that any shop can wrench on. And carburetors to bring the meaning of Carburation Day some meaning.

[Brickman]

You've got mail.

Subject:Thank you

"Thank you all for taking the time to express your thoughts to me, regarding the Curt Cavin, Indy Star article. It is clear you all have a deep appreciation of the traditions of the Indianapolis 500 mile race.



It is true that full fields for the 500 have been a challenge the last couple of years, and I expect it will continue to be for the next couple. I can assure you all that first and foremost I am trying to grow the interest in Indy racing. Having said that, it would be disingenuous of me to give everyone the impression that if the trend continues to be short fields by two or three cars, year in and year out, that we should not give careful consideration, from a business standpoint, to reducing the field.



Ultimately, I don’t believe that will be necessary and I just like to be straight forward with everyone, even the press, knowing that there will be those who will use it against me.



Thank you for your past and continued support.



Working for 33,



tg"

[Ziggy]

I take it this is a reply of a letter you sent to Tony George?

Ziggy

[DaveL]

Spring 1994-"Gee, where are we going to find the garage space for all of these entries?"

Spring 2004--"We are working towards 33"

Keep up the good work Tony.

The IRL-Preserving Indy traditions since July of 1994.

[pchall]

http://www.indystar.com/articles/4/127810-5764-102.html


I have a very high tolerance for idiots (I live in Indianapolis and am a ChampCar fan), but is this REALLY the same guy who just said a couple of months ago that he loved open wheel racing and it's tradition more than anyone else??


This is the same guy who claimed the insuring the sacred "full field" of 33 cars was a major reason for forming the IRL.

[racer2c]

Spring 1994-"Gee, where are we going to find the garage space for all of these entries?"

Spring 2004--"We are working towards 33"

Keep up the good work Tony.

The IRL-Preserving Indy traditions since July of 1994.

:thumbup: :D

[L1P1]

TF Poll: Should the 500 go to a field of less than 33?

Yes: 9
No: 112

Geez, is TG trying to set some sort of record for pissing people off?

[devilmaster]

See what happens when you spend an entire day following the trade deadline in the NHL today?

I miss all the good stuff..... :D :rofl:


Steve

[Brickman]

I take it this is a reply of a letter you sent to Tony George?

Ziggy

Yes.

Their form letter reply.

[racer2c]

Yes.

Their form letter reply.

That's hysterical! The IMS actually does auto-reply Tony George same day damage control! :rofl:

I can hear the phone call now...

IMS Exec = "Hi, Mary in IT please. Hi Mary. Yeah, he did it again, we're going to need another auto reply to go out pronto. I'll email you the content. You know the drill. Thanks".

[Ziggy]

Do you mail him often?

I mailed him one time, telling him to stick his Indy 500 tickets where the sun dont shine.

That was in 1996, If I would have saved it, and had a scanner, I would share it with you. It was a wonderful letter, looked up all the words and everything.
In short, I said he was going to ruin the 500 even more than allowing the Brickyard.

You supported the vision, and quite vigorously if I remember correctly. What gives? How do you feel about that? Do you think that overall, Openwheel Racing is going backwards since the split? Did CART's managment turn you off, or all the foreign born participants. Lack of American Talent? Engine Leases? Big Money Teams?

Did I miss something about the original vision? Something that was actually adhered too?

How bout that JJ?

Ziggy

[Brickman]

Do you mail him often?

I mailed him one time, telling him to stick his Indy 500 tickets where the sun dont shine.

That was in 1996, If I would have saved it, and had a scanner, I would share it with you. It was a wonderful letter, looked up all the words and everything.
In short, I said he was going to ruin the 500 even more than allowing the Brickyard.

Did I miss something about the original vision? Something that was actually adhered too?

How bout that JJ?

Ziggy

The Silva way<<<>>>

>>>You supported the vision, and quite vigorously if I remember correctly. What gives? <<<

I didn't buy into the vision. I always thought it was for control. Being a capitalist I saw what rights he had to start a series, of course his right and if it was right are two different things.

>>>Do you think that overall, Openwheel Racing is going backwards since the split? <<<

Backwards.

>>>How do you feel about that?<<<

Same.

>>> Did CART's managment turn you off, or all the foreign born participants.<<<

Management. The picture Chris posted post-split of Nazareth said it all. Packed stands and then bumble, fumble....

>>> Lack of American Talent? <<<

I like American talent. But I don't prefer Americans with lack of talent.

>>>Engine Leases? <<<

The devil for CART and now the IRL. It's about control too.

>>>Big Money Teams?<<<

I'm a Penske fan! Enough said.

>>>Did I miss something about the original vision? Something that was actually adhered too?<<<

Control.... Getting control.

JJ???

I think Professor Joe was right, Kasey Kahne is the real deal.

[Ziggy]

Yet you enjoy hanging around and being mush mouth with CART fans

Kasey Kahne, wow, big surprise. Glad Professor Joe tipped you off. He's such a savant. Professor Joe and Silva in the same post, says alot. Here's a newsflash for you, most of the great pavement Midget guys would make excellent Taxi drivers, and the invasion is in high gear. Hines, Steele, Michael Lewis. It does help to run Silver Crown as well,(and well) to get used to the ultra weight versus tire managment. There is not much too it really. Good car, good crew, its lotto racing. Its funny to me that NASCAR has lost its sport to the USAC/Midwest/ non southern driver.

I think your a troll

Ziggy

[SteveH]

9 rows of 3 sounds so modern, when you think about it. A new tradition born every year at IMS.

Future press release: In keeping with tradition the Indianapolis Motor Speedway is pleased to welcome Rolling Rock as the official beer of the Indy 500. The '33' logo harkens back to the days of 33 starters and even though no one has any idea what the '33' stands for, we're hoping that its enough to placate the few whining fans that we have left.

[Brickman]

Yet you enjoy hanging around and being mush mouth with CART fans

Kasey Kahne, wow, big surprise. Glad Professor Joe tipped you off. He's such a savant. Professor Joe and Silva in the same post, says alot. Here's a newsflash for you, most of the great pavement Midget guys would make excellent Taxi drivers, and the invasion is in high gear. Hines, Steele, Michael Lewis. It does help to run Silver Crown as well,(and well) to get used to the ultra weight versus tire managment. There is not much too it really. Good car, good crew, its lotto racing. Its funny to me that NASCAR has lost its sport to the USAC/Midwest/ non southern driver.

I think your a troll

Ziggy

I'll take a break from my home remodeling...

I know you are wrong.

I think you are better at discussing issues than straying and discussing personalities. TF members think the same thing, a little spot on criticisim (http://www.trackforum.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=13003) or questions and it riles folks. As much grief as I gave I always admitted when I was wrong. Call em like you see them but at least get it right.

No it wasn't a newsflash, great car control and instincts always shows, I just wonder how long a guy like Newman keeps his edge before he starts to lose it in Tin Tops.

Savant? I would likely say exposure to IRP which by no means is a bad thing.

I grew up with Dan Gurney winning Good Ol Boy Races, so I'm a happy camper when a Kennseth, Kulwicki come from the North, Gordon(s) from California, Midwestern Rusty. I can't remember a driver I rooted for from the South, well that's not quite true, I liked Dale back in the early 80's, then the NASCAR butt kissing began and he could wreck them and do no harm, simply not fair. Throw out the plate races and add some more road races and I would really be happy.

Back to tearing out the kitchen...

[RTKar]

...just consider it corporate downsizing....it's an American tradition.

[Ankf00]

"I know everything sucks ya,
I know everything sucks whoa oh oh.
I know everything sucks ya,
This is gonna be the last time you hear me complain."
*do do do doo doo*

[Ziggy]

Brickman, I did call it like I see it. You mucking it up with you old pals would never change my thoughts on you, one bit.

Much like silva, your here to stir the pot, and nothing else.

Ziggy

[Turn7]

...just consider it corporate downsizing....it's an American tradition.


:D :D

Maybe they will offshore the others and have the other 15 running a race simultaneosly in Bangalor?

[Brickman]

Brickman, I did call it like I see it. You mucking it up with you old pals would never change my thoughts on you, one bit.

Much like silva, your here to stir the pot, and nothing else.

Ziggy

Fine.

Everytime I stir the pot you point it out, feel free to ask why I posted something like Dave did earlier instead of jumping to incorrect conclusions. But since I haven't trolled or even come close you need to cool your jets and stop being so paranoid.

Silva is here?

[chop456]

Fine.

Everytime I stir the pot you point it out, feel free to ask why I posted something like Dave did earlier instead of jumping to incorrect conclusions. But since I haven't trolled or even come close you need to cool your jets and stop being so paranoid.

Silva is here?

You've made a habit of posting things that Champcar fans don't want to hear. Whether it be relevant news or not is of no importance. Until you change those habits, you'll be viewed as a lemming and a troll.

Don't pretend you're doing anyone any favors or providing a public service by being here. This isn't Point/Counterpoint.

[Brickman]

You've made a habit of posting things that Champcar fans don't want to hear. Whether it be relevant news or not is of no importance. Until you change those habits, you'll be viewed as a lemming and a troll.

Don't pretend you're doing anyone any favors or providing a public service by being here. This isn't Point/Counterpoint.

The old ostrich theory...

I said previously I wouldn't start a thread about Champ Cars after one was completly misunderstood. The rest of your comments are 100% exactly what I have been PM'd about at Track Forum. No this isn't Point/Counterpoint, but if you can't discuss issues and exchange views than opt out. One thing I'm going to do is answer people with PM from now on. Making me the issue rather than discussing the issue is counterproductive. Especially since my view of this topic (33) is the same as 90%+ of others here, and 90%+ of others there (http://www.trackforum.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=39903)

[WickerBill]

You all suck for ruining my thread.