View Full Version : Not Having 33 cars at Indy, TBC
Madmaxfan2
03-10-04, 03:04 PM
It has become evident that TG is not man enough to admit his mistakes. The changing vision of his IRL is proof of this. He did start the IRL originally keep spriget drivers in the Indy 500 mix, reality- the spridget training route is not suitable for most drivers, save maybe Tony Stewart. He wanted to keep USAC relevent in the US auto racing scence, but USAC in reality was so imcomponent at the botached Texas race that Eddie Gossage forced TG to get rid of USAC. He wanted to keep independent engine builders in the mix until car counts and T & H $$ was too tempting not put under the little guy.
He wasn't interested in road racing either, yet when CART was up for sale, what did TG want, Long BEach Grand Prix date, one of those aweful street circuits. So why is it suprising the when whole Open Wheel Racing world is shrinking due to him, that he would find the field of 33 cars essential ? Given this guy's delusional thinking, I think would pleased to have 10 cars rather than admit the whole world he screwed up big time. I know this is old ground but TG will say or do anything rather than admit he was wrong about the formation of the IRL
devilmaster
03-10-04, 03:55 PM
...........
I disagree. Tony started the IRL for power. He saw what the france's did as the owners of NASCAR and Daytona International as figured he could do it also.
All the points you gave, were excuses he used to justify his actions to the general public. And in my opinion, which is supplemented by his actions from that day forward, those excuses were a flat out lie.
If, in the beginning, he came out and flatly said, "I'm starting the IRL because I feel I should be running IndyCar racing and no one else" it wouldn't have changed opinions or the actions of the fan base, but very simply, the IRListas wouldn't have had that nugget to hold onto(sprint drivers, cost control, yada yada yada)
In fact, his actions which make the IRL more and more look like CART lite, validates the simple fact that he saw CART successful in the late 80s/early 90s and he wanted a bigger chunk of that pie.
When the final chapter in this sad saga is written, I don't see that Tony will be vindicated as the saviour of open wheel in this country.
Steve
It was always about power and control. Everything else was a means to an end.
The PR has always been about making whatever they have look like it was what they wanted all along.
Madmaxfan2
03-10-04, 05:36 PM
The power to run the Indy 500 the way he wanted to do so was the whole point of the IRL, but what's the point if everything goes away? But NO. 1 priority was control, but you cannot convince me that in his dreams Jeff Gordon won the one the race that counted in T.G's mind, the Indy 500.
He is just going the motions now. Given that mentaility, car count is not an issue in his mind pubically. Remember, in Indiana there is the annointed leaders, like TG, Billy Knight, etc, who can do no wrong. Loyality to a major fault. If TG admits his mistake, the locals would turn on him, and he cannot face that. TG is a very fear driven man. That explains his bad speaking style, why there paid shills to broadcast his message. The real reason this split will not fix itself is that Tony George is a coward.
Racewriter
03-10-04, 05:40 PM
The power to run the Indy 500 the way he wanted to do so was the whole point of the IRL, but what's the point if everything goes away? But NO. 1 priority was control, but you cannot convince me that in his dreams Jeff Gordon won the one the race that counted in T.G's mind, the Indy 500.
He is just going the motions now. Given that mentaility, car count is not an issue in his mind pubically. Remember, in Indiana there is the annointed leaders, like TG, Billy Knight, etc, who can do no wrong. Loyality to a major fault. If TG admits his mistake, the locals would turn on him, and he cannot face that. TG is a very fear driven man. That explains his bad speaking style, why there paid shills to broadcast his message. The real reason this split will not fix itself is that Tony George is a coward.
Don't be silly. TG doesn't really give a rip about Jeff Gordon - a staffer probably had to tell him who Jeff was. On Wind Tunnel he admitted that he'd never even heard of Kasey Kahne until he started racing in BGN - which was AFTER Kasey had won in USAC, had his Atlantics races, started the A-main at Knoxville, and basically established himself in most knowledgeable observers' minds as one of the top prospects out of short track racing. When TG uttered his pap about Gordon, Gordon was already gone.
The only USAC'er that TG ever cared about was Ed Carpenter. That much is clear now.
B3RACER1a
03-10-04, 05:40 PM
Well, I sent Mr. George an email figuring some people were getting responses. It wasnt hate mail or anything, just digging a little deeper trying to figure out if HE knows whats going on. I'll post it here if I get a replay.
Spicoli
03-10-04, 08:25 PM
The power to run the Indy 500 the way he wanted to do so was the whole point of the IRL, but what's the point if everything goes away? But NO. 1 priority was control, but you cannot convince me that in his dreams Jeff Gordon won the one the race that counted in T.G's mind, the Indy 500.
He is just going the motions now. Given that mentaility, car count is not an issue in his mind pubically. Remember, in Indiana there is the annointed leaders, like TG, Billy Knight, etc, who can do no wrong. Loyality to a major fault. If TG admits his mistake, the locals would turn on him, and he cannot face that. TG is a very fear driven man. That explains his bad speaking style, why there paid shills to broadcast his message. The real reason this split will not fix itself is that Tony George is a coward.
:saywhat:
I'll take this a step further, but nice reply Racewriter.
TG doesn't cower for anyone, he doesn't care about anyone, he's never been told he is wrong to his face by anyone he didn't fire or ruin the next day. Look how painfully difficult it was for him to hear ANY disapproval from Despain a couple weeks back. I thought he was gonna jump across the table and yell "But I am th king!"
Like others here who live in Indy, most of us know someone who has worked there, and heard the horror stories. My first fears were realized when my direct contact, who was someone in the marketing department, starting telling me about just how bad this guy was. This was the early, early 90s, as NASCAR was coming to town.
As a big fan of the place, OW racing in general, and the growth of the sport, I initially held out SOME hope, as I only knew that this guy was young, and perhaps brought some fresh views to the track, the sport, and the ChampCar series.
I remember sitting over a beer with my "person in the marketing department" during the summer, when it was revelaed to me what lay ahead. Not even an attempt to paraphrase, "person" said they had given TG the name "Mumbles", and there was a mass exodus planned: Things were looking horrid. He wouldn;t listen, he was a horrible communicator, and he had absolutely no tolerance for any way but his. "Person" explained that the new sherriff in town didn't give F about anyone's opinion, vision, or needs but his own. If you would have told me 12 years ago it would have ended up this bad today, I would have laughed my arse off.
Mari was half gone anyway, and this was a pure powerplay - atarting with his family, and moving through the IMS infrastructure, then targeting the sport. France's came in and played him like a damn puppet. When you have all the money, the only thing left os raw power and attention from people - good or bad. He had ZERO checks and balances (the myth of the "board's in control" crap? ;) - riiiighhht!) was bunk. The rest of the family was too far gone in caring about the place or worried about anything other than sipping gin on the veranda of whatever country club they ended up on that day.
The IMS/IRL infrastructure has debased itsself into a few select yes men who insulate the moron from any proxy of reality, and they gladly fatten their wallets doing so. Everyone has their price. The rest of the staff are revolving door youngsters who are just happy to have a job in motorsports. The late Chris Duffy may have been the last sane person left in the whole game.
And TG kept the locals from complaining by issuing more free tickets, pace cars and political contributions at a pace and breadth better than anyone in history had. Toss in the "appearance" that 2 more races were worrth "Billions" in economic impact to the city, and who was gonna question him?
But we are but inconsequencial "fans" of the sport. He has proven many, many times over he could GAF about us. We simply do not matter. (eg: hammer, PT, 25/8, Yen, Penske, etc...) And he has told you that repeatedly.
Tony's play has been about power from day 1. Don't kid yourself.
Don Quixote
03-10-04, 08:39 PM
Great post Spicoli. :)
However, I take offense at the sipping gin on the veranda comment. :gomer:
Beautiful Girl: "I was thinking later, you could kiss me on the veranda."
Chevy Chase: "No, on the lips would be fine"
-Three Amigos!
Tony's play has been about power from day 1. Don't kid yourself.
That's why I've been against him from day 1. It was obvious. The 500 was sold out yearly, people were on a waiting list for seat upgrades,tickets were scalped for a premium,hotel rooms couldn't be found, cars didn't make the show, bubble day was interesting...for Pete's sake, Penske and Rahal didn't make the show....but that wasn't good enough. Had he wanted to make it cheaper, he wouldn't have forced the teams to use his catering service. There wouldn't have been a need to use 40% of the yearly CART team budget just to run the month of May..... It wasn't good enough for the coke snorter to be sitting on a cash cow.
Spicoli, great post
Ziggy
Racewriter
03-10-04, 11:21 PM
Spicoli, great post. I've got my own 'mole' that's been involved there, and he tells a similar story.
racer2c
03-11-04, 12:11 AM
So when does the motor-sport media start taking him to task in a serious manner. Not Despain softball, but with the facts that after nine years, H & T, Penske, Ganassi and Mikey, not to mention the drivers, the IRL is hiding it's faults behind spin doctored press releases. The IRL is a failed experiment.
The prince lost the crown jewels. It's time someone inform the Queen.
Excellant insight Spicoli!
BTW.... I do know a publisher if anyone would like to write a book about the whole fiasco.
Just my 1/2 a nickel.
Great post Spicoli. 'nuff said. :thumbup:
Great posts by Spicoli and R-Dub!
I keep saying that the only difference between those of who were the Speednet CARTisans and those like RW, Dolan, Prof. Joe, Whoosh and other ex-IRListas with whom we argued with hammer and tongs from 1996-1997 is simply when we realized Tony was lying to us.
And after reading that long thread on TF yesterday, it looks like a few more former 'Listas are waking up to the Big Lie and are turning their backs.
I still love the Big Lie about how Tony was concerned about losing sprint car drivers to NASCAR...which is why he put Clabber Girl on the hood of Stevie Reeves BGN car.
To give just one of many examples, mind you.
Railbird
03-11-04, 06:15 AM
Nice post Spicoli, I've heard the same stories.
Spicoli
03-11-04, 08:11 AM
Nice post Spicoli, I've heard the same stories.
Dang. That just made my day. First I meet Ziggy, now I get a slap on the back from Rail?! Wow. I feel moist.
I may just stop by the flag room some day.
Nahhhh. :gomer: ;)
What a shame that the CART owners didn't stand up to TG.
One by one they sold their stock and then bent over.
Great post spic! :thumbup: My insider to the Indy area law enforcement Dept. says Mari is too busy trying to keep certain groups from getting M.A.D.D. at her than to be worrying about the day to day's at IMS. ;)
Brickman
03-11-04, 11:58 AM
Great posts by Spicoli and R-Dub!
I keep saying that the only difference between those of who were the Speednet CARTisans and those like RW, Dolan, Prof. Joe, Whoosh and other ex-IRListas with whom we argued with hammer and tongs from 1996-1997 is simply when we realized Tony was lying to us.
And after reading that long thread on TF yesterday, it looks like a few more former 'Listas are waking up to the Big Lie and are turning their backs.
I still love the Big Lie about how Tony was concerned about losing sprint car drivers to NASCAR...which is why he put Clabber Girl on the hood of Stevie Reeves BGN car.
To give just one of many examples, mind you.
They latched onto TG's vision to make it their vision. No one has a vision in autoracing, Kennedy had a vision of going to the moon, but even Mars is 'I said it first aren't I great' kinda stuff.
Auto racing is about power... control... cars?
No... ISC, SMI, TG, Ford, Chevy, Toyota, etc
Madmaxfan2
03-11-04, 01:44 PM
Boy, I did not anticipate the responses. Back to coward charge, if you cannot stand opipions that differ yours, and claim to be leader, fire everybody who disagrees with you as an employer, you have to be labeled insecure, weak internally, then therefore a coward. No, TG isn't worried that I labeled him a coward. Do not expect it. It does mean that TG has no idea of the damage done appearently, which is really hard to fathom. No TG is not scared, because his yes men will ****er him from the reality from the failure verdict. Well, I guess we all have the answer to the 33 cars at Indy question, It really is a moot point in his mind. Then it should not be a stretch to make the BY400 the Indy 500 in August as his ultimate ace to save his precious race. :(
B3RACER1a
03-11-04, 02:03 PM
Well, I email TG and actually got a very long response back. I had 3 or 4 questions for him just to dig a little deeper. At the end he asked that I not post his response on a forum, so I won't.
But the ideas behind his email are about what you all have here.
Madmaxfan2
03-11-04, 03:17 PM
I finally understand this crazy split, and it is safe to say it is not driven by the usual suspects. The mentality is just nuts. In all the years through prevouis economic hard times the task to manage 33 cars somehow was obtainable. It apparently does not matter anymore.
RaceGrrl
03-11-04, 06:12 PM
Well, I email TG and actually got a very long response back. I had 3 or 4 questions for him just to dig a little deeper. At the end he asked that I not post his response on a forum, so I won't.
But the ideas behind his email are about what you all have here.
Post them. He's a tool. Why do you care if he doesn't want you to post the responses? In my opinion, he doesn't deserve that kind of respect.
Brickman
03-11-04, 06:45 PM
Post them. He's a tool. Why do you care if he doesn't want you to post the responses? In my opinion, he doesn't deserve that kind of respect.
It's not about respect, it about being civil. I too have received e-mails asking me not to quote, of course they didn't come from the same side of the fence as TG.
You could always send your own.
Sean O'Gorman
03-11-04, 07:59 PM
I agree with B3's decision. If someone from TF recieved a response from Gentilozzi saying not to post it on a forum, wouldn't you agree that them doing the opposite would be kinda sleazy?
B3RACER1a
03-12-04, 01:58 AM
He just simply asked me not to post them on a forum, so I wont.
I asked about the the engine leases, why shortening to 1 weekend qualifying....basically any stuff he said in 94-95 that he now controdicts, I asked him about.
He was very civil, so I figured I'd do the same. I jsut wanted to see what he thought and I completely disagree with him on every point..LOL!
I think just about every one of us would.
Spicoli
03-12-04, 08:32 AM
Well, I email TG and actually got a very long response back. I had 3 or 4 questions for him just to dig a little deeper. At the end he asked that I not post his response on a forum, so I won't.
But the ideas behind his email are about what you all have here.
So paraphrase it.
ChampCar is dead anyway, TG won. Go ahead. :rolleyes:
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