View Full Version : new gordon kirby article
rosawendel
03-31-04, 09:17 AM
gordon kirby's inside track - from cart.com (http://www.cart.com/News/Article.asp?ID=7606)
"There’s no question that CART’s biggest failure, among many, was the inability of the team owners to agree to a new engine formula during 2000 and 2001."
a well-written article. what's most appreciated isn't so much the information that it relays (elaborates on the pop-off valve controversy, etc., and other past miss-steps), but that the critical remarks are on the series' home page. i think it's refreshing.
Mike Kellner
03-31-04, 10:07 AM
Great article. What is interesting in it, is the reminder that since the late 60s, there has been an alternate to IMS/USAC/IRL. There is a separate audience for high end road racing that is not satisfied by the Indycentric circus. As long as they can do some useful promotion and keep the tech war under control, ChampCar can thrive supplying this demand.
I also think there is a huge demand for high end road racing in Central and South America. Even if no one in Indiana ever heard of them, there are sponsors down there who are willing to pony up for races and teams as long as some of their local heroes have rides.
An interesting observation. All the failed alternate series had Roger Penske involved with them. Hopefully he will have the same effect on IMS/IRL & NASCAR.
mk
sundaydriver2
03-31-04, 10:47 AM
Champ Cars will go where there is demand. If the majority of auto racing fans in America dont get it, oh well. I'm sure there will always be a half dozen races in the US, but I don't mind races in other countries as long as the tracks are challanging and profitable.
The reason Champ Car failed before is because they didnt have a plan that they all agreed on. The decision not to do anything with new engine spec is the reason why CART failed.
Hopefully, the new guys will have a plan and stick to it. If new car mfg's want in, great. However, keep the costs down so the car mfg's can put their money into marketing instead of R & D.
Top notch article by Kirby. This is a great retrospect of the roots of what really went wrong. I noticed the Robert Clarke comment to AC about the cost excalations after the Ganassi Toyo deal, didn't we hear a similar comment from Lee White recently directed towards the "new" earl business model?
Here's hoping outsiders with a stake of their own money in the business will right this ship and set it to sail succesfully into the future. :thumbup:
Great article.
I think Bachelart may have meant ISC rather than NASCAR on the "monopoly" issue.
“It's incredible to see how the IRL is behaving and how NASCAR is behaving, just to kill Champ Car,” Bachelart added. Just not sure what NASCAR is doing, it's obvious what the IRL wants though.
rosawendel
03-31-04, 12:18 PM
it always bothered me a little when RM would be critical of CART (or at least be offering objective constructive criticism) on espn.com, while at the same time "towing the line" on his CART posted articles.
an advantage of going private, i would suppose.
datachicane
03-31-04, 12:52 PM
I think Bachelart may have meant ISC rather than NASCAR on the "monopoly" issue.
ISC = France family.
NASCAR = France family.
France family = France family.
Therfore, ISC = NASCAR.
Any questions?
:D
devilmaster
03-31-04, 12:55 PM
Any questions?
:D
If God is all powerful, can He make a rock so big that He himself can't lift it? ;) :D
Steve
datachicane
03-31-04, 01:02 PM
If God is all powerful, can he make a rock so big that he himself can't lift it? ;) :D
Steve
No, since we've created a feedback loop where success in creating the hypothetical rock is defined by a failure in the same power which gives him the ability to create the rock in the first place. However, this in no way precludes him from delegating the task.
:D
devilmaster
03-31-04, 01:10 PM
No, since we've created a feedback loop where success in creating the hypothetical rock is defined by a failure in the same power which gives him the ability to create the rock in the first place. However, this in no way precludes him from delegating the task.
:D
In my best Ralph Wiggum voice......
"My cat's breath smells like cat food."
:D
Steve
Mike Kellner
03-31-04, 01:15 PM
"If God is all powerful, can he make a rock so big that he himself can't lift it? "
When I was a pup, someone asked that of a Jesuit Priest in religion class. The good father smiled that, too bad the Inquisition is over, smile he had, and replied, "Good question, why don't you write a 1,000 word essay on the subject, and have it ready for me when this class meets again next week." No one ever asked one of those again.
I think the short answer is, God has limited patience with Sophists, don't push your luck.
mk
TravelGal
03-31-04, 01:17 PM
"Sad to say, the former CART team owners who have deserted the series for the IRL in recent years failed to provide the leadership when they had the opportunity during their CART years. They failed to develop a business plan and a technical philosophy and they failed to manage the rules correctly and build and develop good relationships with the manufacturers. "
This is what struck me. Such a clear indictment of the deserters. Failure,failure, failure. They never had any ability to lead. They nearly killed CART by their lack of ability and now they are doing it to the EARL. The faster they jump ship to the dark side, the faster the decline over there accelerates, and the faster we rise to the top. Pogo said, "We have met the enemy and he is us." Fortunately, now the enemy is "them" "over there" GONE!
devilmaster
03-31-04, 01:20 PM
When I was a pup, someone asked that of a Jesuit Priest in religion class.
mk
Man, those priests gotta hate George Carlin.... :laugh: Did anyone get around to asking about the Easter duty? ;)
Anyways, i think we've sidetracked this thread enough. :D
Steve
I was 14 in 1968. Read everything I could about all of the series mentioned with a special fondness for CanAm and the McLarens and Indy. Used to watch Wide World of Sports to get my racing fix. Those were the best of times. Gordon Kirby nails it. :thumbup:
Mike Kellner
03-31-04, 01:32 PM
Hey, I can't remember rightly....
How many cars did Can-Am start most weekends? As I recall, it wasn't a NASCAR size field. They were 100 mile races, if I remember rightly. Flat out road race sprints, no pit stops.
Hard Driver
03-31-04, 01:40 PM
Yes, the lack of creating anew engine formula in 2000 was the most significant fumble of CART. Which even violated their own rule book. The 3.5L engine formula was idiotcy and trying to work with Tony George is idiotcy.
I hope, and believe, that the current Champcar owners know that they just need to focus on their own series and abide by their own rule book.
Hey, I can't remember rightly....
How many cars did Can-Am start most weekends? As I recall, it wasn't a NASCAR size field. They were 100 mile races, if I remember rightly. Flat out road race sprints, no pit stops.
A big Can Am field would have almost 30 cars in the late 60s, but most of the races started twenty or so cars.
The races were closer to 200 miles until they did the stupid heats and final deal in 1974.
Kirby's article is interesting, but he really seems to have forgotten the first oil crisis and the anti-car sentiment that prevailed in the early 70s. That's what killed the pony car era, Can Am, Trans Am and F5000.
Remember the Mustang II? :flame:
Nice article. Mentions the IRL, I don't know, about six times, right on the Champ Car homepage. We must stop that. In the future when asked about the IRL and/or Boy George, the response OWRS brass and team owners should be, "it is our policy not to comment on competing series."
With $100,000 wagers thrown down to Boy George regarding whether or not OWRS can get 18 cars for Long Beach, I've concluded that the current "team" is as Gomerville obsessed as the old team. But I have faith that one bright shiny day, we will have management that focuses on running our series. Just don't hold your breath. :shakehead
I hope, and believe, that the current Champcar owners know that they just need to focus on their own series and abide by their own rule book.
A big Can Am field would have almost 30 cars in the late 60s, but most of the races started twenty or so cars.
The races were closer to 200 miles until they did the stupid heats and final deal in 1974.
Kirby's article is interesting, but he really seems to have forgotten the first oil crisis and the anti-car sentiment that prevailed in the early 70s. That's what killed the pony car era, Can Am, Trans Am and F5000.
Remember the Mustang II? :flame:
As stated on a Quebec licence plate: Je me souviens. (I remember)
Very well actually. Kinda like the "oil crisis" we are going thru today?
Although this time out they DIDN'T run a Daytona 450.
Or did they?
stroker
03-31-04, 04:48 PM
Hey, I can't remember rightly....
How many cars did Can-Am start most weekends? As I recall, it wasn't a NASCAR size field. They were 100 mile races, if I remember rightly. Flat out road race sprints, no pit stops.
I can't speak for other races, but I remember the Can-Am fields at RA being almost 40 strong in '69-'70. 200 miles, no refueling.
Mike Kellner
03-31-04, 05:20 PM
Maybe I am mixing up the heyday with the end. For some reason I have an image of short sprints with short fields, but I followed it in magazines and newspapers, and the occasional Wide World of Sports chop job show.
mk
Joe in LA
03-31-04, 06:48 PM
Remember the Mustang II? :flame:
A good example of needing to know our history to avoid repeating it. :eek:
datachicane
03-31-04, 07:51 PM
"If God is all powerful, can he make a rock so big that he himself can't lift it? "
When I was a pup, someone asked that of a Jesuit Priest in religion class. The good father smiled that, too bad the Inquisition is over, smile he had<<>>
I think the short answer is, God has limited patience with Sophists, don't push your luck.
mk
Of course, a smart alec like myself would have pointed out that the bible makes it clear that God isn't all powerful at all...
"And the Lord was with Judah; and he drave out the inhabitants of the mountain; but could not drive out the inhabitants of the valley, because they had chariots of iron." (Judges 1:19)
:gomer:
Racewriter
03-31-04, 10:09 PM
Kirby's article is interesting, but he really seems to have forgotten the first oil crisis and the anti-car sentiment that prevailed in the early 70s. That's what killed the pony car era, Can Am, Trans Am and F5000.
Remember the Mustang II? :flame:
Why did the fuel crisis only kill road racing series, most of which ran shorter races (using less fuel) than NASCAR or USAC?
pinniped
03-31-04, 10:18 PM
Maybe I am mixing up the heyday with the end. For some reason I have an image of short sprints with short fields, but I followed it in magazines and newspapers, and the occasional Wide World of Sports chop job show.
mk
WW of sports was about the only time we got to see racing back then...the Monaco grand prix interspersed with weightlifting and water ballet...
Racewriter
03-31-04, 10:36 PM
Incidentally, Kirby's article is more right than it is wrong - and I'm no particular fan of him. The key to remember is that the factories want a series to be successful enough to market their products, but not so successful that they are not the major source of funding. The Big 3 currently are struggling with the fact that they are not the biggest dogs in the NASCAR yard.
Mike Kellner
03-31-04, 11:44 PM
"Why did the fuel crisis only kill road racing series, most of which ran shorter races (using less fuel) than NASCAR or USAC?"
All of racing was hurt. USAC only survived because of the momentum of Indy. USAC was close to collapse other than Indy by 79. NASCAR was a Southern cultural institution, and less affected, because its sponsors were more willing to stay wiht it.
The entire approach to the energy shortage was symbolism over substance, which is why auto racing was affected. Shortening the a race from 500 to 450 miles made a great PR statement, which was the order of the day. In reality, the amount of fuel used by racecars was insignificant, compared to the amount of fuel used to drive to the race track by the fans. My guess is, more energy is used on a Sunday afternoon running TV sets to watch the NFL than is used by all the race cars in the country on the same Sunday. However, sponsors pulled out of racing, and that killed or weakened a lot of series. I don't recall anyone suggesting playing one less weekend of NFL football, or 10 less baseball games per season, which sould have saved far more energy.
I guess things haven't changed all that much.
mk
Kiwifan
04-01-04, 05:33 AM
How old are you Mike? Remember the 70's? We had a fuel crisis back then and racing got hit hard and became a dirty word and although someone proved that people used more fuel going to horse racing than motor racing it took years to become popular again.
Some things never change. :(
Rusty.
Mike Kellner
04-01-04, 10:03 AM
I am in my mid 50s. I remember it well. Then as now, we did everything that was a great grandstand play and made no difference, while refusing to do anything to solve the problem. There is plenty of gas and oil in the US, but we have to change the tax, regulatory, and environmental rules, so it makes economic sense to produce it here.
Racing is actually good for the environment, because it develops the technology which creates more efficient automobiles, which long term reduces fuel consumption. Don't hold your breath waiting for anyone to recognize this.
mk
Madmaxfan2
04-01-04, 10:49 AM
Based on that last Keller comment, road racing is the closest to what real people do on real roads, like turn left and right, gear changing has to be accomplished, braking performed to slow down in corners, not pedal to the metal, flat out, left turn only racin imbraced by the IRL & Nascar crowd.
Therefore the only relevent technological developments that come out of racing to benefit automobile come from road racing, and the savy OEM manufacturers realize this. Remember the Mustang II, it was a piece of C**P.
Mike Kellner
04-01-04, 11:02 AM
Realize, NASCAR/IRL racin' is not auto racing, it is an entertainment property. The goal is not to see who can build the best car and drive it over the finish line first, but to maximize revenues while minimising risks and costs. The bosses in NASCAR/IRL are idiologically at one with the genuses who bring us all the highly entertaining movies, TV shows, and music that no one over thirty will pay a nickel to see.
Hyped pablum is still pablum. Vote with your remote control, vote with your credit card. Eventually, they will hear you.
mk
Realize, NASCAR/IRL racin' is not auto racing, it is an entertainment property. The goal is not to see who can build the best car and drive it over the finish line first, but to maximize revenues while minimising risks and costs. The bosses in NASCAR/IRL are idiologically at one with the genuses who bring us all the highly entertaining movies, TV shows, and music that no one over thirty will pay a nickel to see.
Hyped pablum is still pablum. Vote with your remote control, vote with your credit card. Eventually, they will hear you.
mk
No I think if they were more like the ones who give us movies they would have only fans under 30, which is clearly not the case. They would also have each race like their All Star Race, which they don't have.
Question, what other races besides Riverside were change to kilometers instead of miles? Not just shaving 50 miles off but 190 miles.
In in the second week of Feb I dropped in on Kiwifan in NZ for a half hour. I have to say he was very busy and working hard. What amazed me in NZ was the amount of TV advertising for NASCAR. The Daytona 500 was on the morning we were taking a bus tour of 90 Mile Beach at the north end of the North Island. The race was on live that morning when we left and when we got back it was still on. I found that strange. What amazed me was that it was being shown over that evening for those who missed it because they had to work in the morning (it was Monday there of course). All of the advance PR for the race on TV reminded me of the WWE (formerly the WWF) as it played to the "big ones" with cars bouncing all over.
It sure looks to me like NASCAR is getting at pretty big foot in the door in NZ. What also surprised me was that the second F1 race of the year was NOT shown live in Australia (KF - was it live in NZ). They had a 4 hour delay and I made the mistake of getting on an internet connection in the hotel lobby and accidently got the results before the race started in AU at 11 pm. I think the Daytona 500 was live in AU as well. Imagine that - NASCAR live and F1 delayed (because it was Sunday evening in prime time).
Anyway, we just finished our 59 day trip (67 days over there last year) and still love NZ and AU. I doubt that we will be back next year. Now we have to start doing an equivalent number on North America in our motorhome.
I see I'm still a rookie here. Must be that NASCAR quantity over quality thing since I did sign on pretty early. :D
Railbird
04-02-04, 10:02 PM
IIRC
maybe someone can back me up on this.
In the seventies fuel crisis it was Nascar that funded/trumped-up a study that proved more fuel was burned flying the New York Jets out to LA for a Rams matchup than a Cup field burned in a 500 mile race.
IIRC
maybe someone can back me up on this.
In the seventies fuel crisis it was Nascar that funded/trumped-up a study that proved more fuel was burned flying the New York Jets out to LA for a Rams matchup than a Cup field burned in a 500 mile race.
During those years there was a move to get an F1 race at Exhibition Stadium in Toronto (where CCWS now runs). That point was also made - one jet burned more fuel and dumped out more pollution than the entire F1 grid.
Mike Kellner
04-03-04, 12:28 AM
Here are a few numbers.
Daytona 500: 42 cars x 500 miles / 4MPG = 5250 gal.
Indy 500: 33 cars x 500 miles / 1.8 MPG = 9166 gal.
Any GP: 20 cars x 186 miles / 3 mpg = 1240 gal.
75000 people drive 30 miles each way for a football game, with an average of two people in each car, which gets 20 mpg = 112,500 gal.
20 million homes run a 300 watt TV for 3.5 hours to watch a football game = 21 million KWatt Hours or $1,470,000 US in electric bills. That is about 28 million HP hours, which if it takes .4 LB of fuel to make 1 HP Hour, is about 1.8 Million gallons of fuel.
As I said, stoopping racing to save fuel is all symbolism and no substance. A one week shorter Football or Baseball season would save lots more fuel. Does anyone remember that ever being proposed?
mk
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