Where Was The IRL When We Needed It?

[DaveL]

Too bad the IRL wasn't around in 1957. That EVIL George Salih showed up with is one of kind car that not only won the race that year, but the year after as well.

This is the conversation any tradition revering IRL fan would have liked to have seen that fateful day when George showed up at IMS with his car. (GS-George Salih, BB-Brian Barnhardt)

GS-Morning Brian. Just here to check my car in.

BB-Interesting looking car ya got there George.

GS-Yep. I call it a "laydown" see, cuz I tilted the Offy...

BB-Uh, excuse me George. When did we pre-approve of this chassis?

GS-Come again?

BB-(Flipping through is papers) I don't recall us approving this chassis. And who gave you permission to build a chassis in the first place?

GS-Brian, I uh...

BB-And this "Offy", what manufacturer is badging it?

GS-Badge? What do you mean Brian?

BB-I mean what manufacturer paid us to badge your engine? You know the rules George, no badge no engine. And this chassis, it's not available to everyone else is it?

GS-Well no, I built it myself and..

BB-Sorry again George. You have to make the hardware you invested your money in and took all the risk in doing so availabe to everyone who wants it. I'm afraid this car can't race.

GS-But, but...

BB-No "buts" George. This is Indy. It's no place for mechanical innovation and risk taking. Indy is all about pre-approved hardware from league authorized suppliers that pay the league to compete. Now get outa here, you're holding up the line.

GS-Brain, no I...you can't..

BB-Next! Yellowshirts, please escort this gentleman who has no appreciation for what Indy is all about out of here.

[rabbit]

:laugh:

Hmm, I wonder if they'll get to 33 cars without him. :saywhat: :gomer:

[Ankf00]

*applause*

well done.

[RichK]

DaveL, if I could fit that on a t-shirt, I would! Bravo.

[JT265]

Another fine dialogue Dave. :thumbup:

[Ziggy]

:thumbup:

Ziggy

[lone_groover]

Bravo!

Author, author!

:)

[DjDrOmusic]

A wonderful and well written piece, Pulitzer material if you ask me!! Send to Letters to the Editor at the IndyStar and to every editorial writer at every TV station in Indy, let them get a feel for what the TRUE fans are thing. :thumbup:

[Railbird]

Great piece, thanks Dave.

http://www.jmfangio.org/indi58bryan.jpg

and thank you George Salih

[Brickman]

[QUOTE=DaveL]Too bad the IRL wasn't around in 1957. [QUOTE]

Nice job.


But the reception may have been the same in the 80's and most of the 90's.

I often wonder when and why did it stray. Was there a catalyst, a terrible accident? Or rules harnessing the increasing speeds?

[Railbird]

Brick

the eighties and nineties saw chassis development by whoever could build one within the rules. Engines were much the same with a variety of specs tossed about in search of something the mythical "little guy" could use to slay the eveil engine leasers.

[Don Quixote]

I often wonder when and why did it stray. Was there a catalyst, a terrible accident? Or rules harnessing the increasing speeds?

Its all too clear why it changed. It was all about excessive power in the hands of an unworthy inheritor.

[sundaydriver2]

It's obvious that you didn't get the memo Dave.

The IRL is no longer. It's now called CARTII.

Come on, get with Version, opps, I mean Vision.

:shakehead :(

[DaveL]

Great piece, thanks Dave.

http://www.jmfangio.org/indi58bryan.jpg

and thank you George Salih

I would be remiss if I didn't mention Quinn Epperly who designed the car.

And to further answer Brickman's question, as late as 1995 Michael Greenfield showed up with his home-built pushrod engine and tried to put the car into the show. Instead, he put the car into the wall. But that's what Indy was all about from 1911-1995.

Until the IRL came along the game was simple: The rules were published and you showed up with what you thought would go fast. Sometimes it worked, sometimes it didn't (ask Rahal and Penske).

My little fable sums up everything I find wrong with the IRL and what it did to Indy.

[racer2c]

My dad gave up on Indy cars years about '98 (he actually was giving the IRL half a chance), and each May we have the same conversation. I ask if he's going to watch the 500 and he asks if CART got rid of the IRL yet. He always follows it up with, "..it used to be about innovation and speed".
"yeah, I'm not watching either pop." I say.

[sundaydriver2]

"..it used to be about innovation and speed".
"yeah, I'm not watching either pop." I say.


This says it all. :shakehead

[JoeBob]

[QUOTE=DaveL]Too bad the IRL wasn't around in 1957. [QUOTE]
But the reception may have been the same in the 80's and most of the 90's.

Maybe it is time to pull out the 1994 yearbook.

[Brickman]

Maybe it is time to pull out the 1994 yearbook.

Indeed. Besides the Greenfield, or the Rahal/Hogan chassis it seems to be the inovations from the likes of George Salih had already long disappeared. I wonder what the last car that was of the type that Dave fondly (correctly so) refers to?

"1994 IndyCar Specifications

(The following information is largely -- and in some cases solely --
from the IndyCar 1994 Media Guide)
The season championship is for the PPG Cup. Because the series
includes the races governed by IndyCar (Championship Auto Racing Teams)
as well as the Indianapolis 500 (governed by the United States Auto
Club), please refer to the series champion driver as the PPG Cup
Champion. There is technically no IndyCar champion since such a
champion would count points only from IndyCar-governed events (and not
the Indianapolis 500).


8.1 Chassis

The 1994 rules allow the cars to have a maximum length of 195 inches,
with 190 inches being the required minimum. The maximum allowed width
is 78.5 inches measured by projecting a line from the outside rim
surface through the hub center. The maximum height of the car from the
highest point to the lowest point is 32 inches. The maximum rear wing
height is 32 inches at the superspeedways and 36 inches on short ovals
and road courses. The cockpit must have a minimum opening of 30 inches
by 14 3/4 inches. An unfueled car, complete with lubricants, coolants,
tyres, etc. must have a minimum weight of 1550 pounds.


8.2 Aerodynamics

Andy Brown from Galmer gave Racecar Engineering the following figures
for the Galmer G92, the car which won the 1992 Indy 500.

Downforce Drag L/D Cd Speed for measurements
Short Oval 3460 lbs 1310 lbs 2.64 1.397 165 mph
Street Circuit 3040 lbs 1070 lbs 2.84 1.141 165 mph
Speedway 2835 lbs 972 lbs 2.92 0.669 220 mph

Fuel consumption is higher on a street circuit such as Long Beach
than on a short oval such as Phoenix: consequently the car has to be
set up so that it pulls less drag.
By way of comparison, in the days before cab roof fairings, a Cd
figure of 1.0 was typical for a high-drag truck. These days trucks
are down to the region of Cd = 0.6 The figures quoted for the 1991
Indy 500 winning Penske PC20 in speedway trim were 3010 lbs downforce
at 220 mph with 1075 lbs drag (Load/Downforce, L/D, = 2.80)
Brown commented: `I'm always a little cautious of comparing figures
from different wind tunnels because experience has shown them all to
vary slightly. The L/D figure is usually close though, and I'm
pleased to see that ours is better than that quoted for the PC20.
Provided we're both telling the truth, that is !'
Note: The downforce is approximately double the weight of the car,
so the car could drive upside-down with a suitable bit of road.





8.4 Engines

Allowable engine options:

1. Turbocharged 4-cycle overhead camshaft engines Maximum of 8 cylinders,
4 valves per cylinder Maximum of 161.703 cubic inches Allowed 45 inches
of turbocharger boost pressure (Chevy, Ilmor, Ford, and Honda engines
are this type)

2. Turbocharged 4-cycle single non-overhead camshaft engines Maximum of 8
cylinders, 2 valves per cylinder Maximum of 209.3 cubic inches Allowed
55 inches of turbocharger boost pressure (Buick, Menard, Mercedes, and
the Greenfield GC209T are this type)

3. Normally-aspirated 4-cycle single non-overhead camshaft engines Maximum
of 8 cylinders, 2 valves per cylinder Maximum of 366 cubic inches (none
of this type, although I guess the NASCAR Winston Cup engines might
actually be legal)
Any engine not meeting specific criteria for definition as "race
proven" will be considered "developmental." The manufacturer is
permitted to utilize this engine during competition in any quantity and
at any cost the manufacturer may determine.
USAC has also reserved the right to change turbocharger boost
pressures on any engine type at any time.
Turbines were finally banned in the early 1970's. If you can get a
diesel to run on methanol, diesels would still be a legal :-)
Horsepower figures are difficult to ascertain, as these figures are
kept closely guarded by teams but are typically 700 to 850 horsepower,
depending on turbocharger settings. IndyCar tests have clocked cars
accelerating from 0 to 60 mph in 2.2 seconds, and from 0 to 100 mph in
4.2 seconds. Engines are typically rebuilt after 400-500 miles of use.


.

[DaveL]

Indeed. Besides the Greenfield, or the Rahal/Hogan chassis it seems to be the inovations from the likes of George Salih had already long disappeared. I wonder what the last car that was of the type that Dave fondly (correctly so) refers to?


The Epperly/Salih laydown was simply a car off the top of my head that I used to illustrate my point. The last car that that was of the type in the spirit of the laydown would be anything that someone with a different idea had for going fast,whether it was successful or not, that was built to the rules and entered without preconditions. Penske's '95 dogsleds would be the last example in Indy history unless something changes. Roger showed up with his cars without anyone pre-approving them or having to share them with anyone else. However, they could do everything but turn without scaring the bajeezus out of the drivers, and it didn't help that the Illmor-Mercedes had the worst top end of the 4-cam engines so he had no help on the straights. So, the cars dnq'd just like a long line of other unique to the team creations in Indy history.

It's not about a car necessarily being unique to the team either. It's about building a car without having to get the design pre-approved or constructed by an authorized builder. It's about building an engine to the rules without a manufacturer having to pay the series to put its name on the cam covers in order to be elligible to compete. It's about there not being any elligibility requirement save for the car passing tech.

It's about Indy being a place where someone with a different idea, even it isn't always a better idea, simply showing up with his machine and trying to make the race without any pre-conditions on elligibility. That's the way it was every year from 1911-1995. And that's why I and so many of us consider the '95 the last true Indy 500.

[Eagle104]

Exactly, Dave. Thank you.

[Ankf00]

"you do it to yourself, you do,
and that's what really hurts,
is you do it to yourself, just you,
you and no one else,
you do it to your... self."

[EDwardo]

Anyone remember the Turbine? Made 'em write a new rule. "No turbines allowed".

[JT265]

Anyone remember the Turbine? Made 'em write a new rule. "No turbines allowed".

I was just gonna post that there have only been two innovations at the speedway that I've had no taste for....

1) Andy's whooshmobiles, cause I couldn't hear them (but they did kick some butt when they ran)

2) Mumbles installed as the pres.


;)

[JT265]

"you do it to yourself, you do,
and that's what really hurts,
is you do it to yourself, just you,
you and no one else,
you do it to your... self."

SO WHAT!!!!! I own it, and I'll tamper with it if I choose.


:D

[Ziggy]

Last truly goofy car, Ken Hamiltons "Aeroeagle"

Someothers where run with some success.

The big failures of ground effect era
Theodore
Doug Sheirson's DSR1
Ligier
89 March!!!

Its nice to see someone remember's the Greenfield effort, for it was truly an underfunded endeavor. This was no hunk of crap deal, rather an engine design that did not have enough money thrown at it.

Speaking with a buddy Thursday night, an idea I will share. Indy's "golden era" was dictated by WW2. The invasion had not happened yet, simply because Europe was still in the process of getting back on line.

Ziggy

[Racewriter]

Nice work, Dave. Highly accurate.

Hey Zig, if I may - I've never been able to find a lot of info on the Greenfields' stuff. I know it was a 209 Turbo, and that the rules were adjusted slightly to make it have a fighting chance (thus creating the Panzers), but most people I've heard from tend to look down on them. What are your recollections? Didn't Johnny Parsons drive it once?

[DaveL]

Didn't Johnny Parsons drive it once?

Parsons drove the car in '94 and his best lap was around 213 (I clocked it). USAC cut the boost for '95 but Greenfield tried again away. It was built with off the shelf parts and crammed into a Lola chassis that it really didn't fit in. It wasn't so much that the engine was unreliable. The plumbing caused most of the problems.

Of course, that was back when you could build your own thing and succeed or fail fair and square, and you didn't need no stinkin' badges either.

[Brickman]

It's about Indy being a place where someone with a different idea, even it isn't always a better idea, simply showing up with his machine and trying to make the race without any pre-conditions on elligibility. That's the way it was every year from 1911-1995. And that's why I and so many of us consider the '95 the last true Indy 500.

I agree to a point. Where we differ is that you seem to soley pin it on the IRL and I pin it on inevitable change. Because I'm guessing from what you are telling me is that during CART's reign that only two cars, Penske chassis and the Greenfield engine were the only examples.

[JT265]

I agree to a point. Where we differ is that you seem to soley pin it on the IRL and I pin it on inevitable change. Because I'm guessing from what you are telling me is that during CART's reign that only two cars, Penske chassis and the Greenfield engine were the only examples.

Ziggy's post cites a few more examples for you. And whether or not anyone showed, the fact that the one-offs could cobble together an entry as someone said above and could take that entry and make a feel-good effort out of it is something that has been legislated away by the great inheritor.

[DaveL]

Because I'm guessing from what you are telling me is that during CART's reign that only two cars, Penske chassis and the Greenfield engine were the only examples.

No Brickman, only the most recent and last examples from 1994 & 1995. Ziggy mentioned many others and there were plenty that were left out. I mentioned examples from the last two years of the CART era only to point out that such go it alone, try your own idea thinking was still allowed at Indy right up until CART's last year.

The IRL allows NONE OF THIS. At all. Zip. Nada. Either it's an approved chassis from an approved supplier powered by an approved engine from an approved mfg that paid to badge the engine, or you don't race.

Your enganging in Silvaesque tautalogical nonsense right now. I ran out of patience with that a long time ago.

[Brickman]

No Brickman, only the most recent and last examples from 1994 & 1995. Ziggy mentioned many others and there were plenty that were left out. I mentioned examples from the last two years of the CART era only to point out that such go it alone, try your own idea thinking was still allowed at Indy right up until CART's last year.

The IRL allows NONE OF THIS. At all. Zip. Nada. Either it's an approved chassis from an approved supplier powered by an approved engine from an approved mfg that paid to badge the engine, or you don't race.

Your enganging in Silvaesque tautalogical nonsense right now. I ran out of patience with that a long time ago.

:o Skipped right over Ziggy's post. :o

Theodore TY01? Is that the right one?
The March I remember, don't know about the Ligier thought they were F-1.

I wasn't tautalogicaling with you. Just looking for spcifics. I agree that the IRL doesn't allow for anything other approved this and that. Good thing? No. Personally I think they are painting themselves into a corner. I think opening up the rules is a thing of the past in American racing. NASCAR's common template has proven that even a series that prided itself on "racing what you brung" is gone for whatever reasons.

[Ankf00]

SO WHAT!!!!! I own it, and I'll tamper with it if I choose.


:D


"It is a violation of federal law to use this aerosol in a manner inconsistent with its labeling" :p

[Hot Rod Otis]

I think that out of the box thinking like the Salih/Epperly laydown, Granatelli's turbines, the Cummins Diesel car or the Novi's has been dead at Indy for quite a while. It wasn't CART's fault, it wasn't the Speedways fault, it just happened, times changed. Things have changed in a lot of other forms of motorsports as well. A modern day Frank Williams could never get his start in F1 today like Frank himself did. The days of an Alan Kulwicki moving to NC and with 2 cars starting a successful WCup team are long gone. Could Jean Rondeau build his own car and drive it to a win @ Le Mans today? And I think USAC killed off any incentive to come up with anything radical in the engine dept when they legislated the turbines into uncompetitiveness. Why bother to push the envelope if the morons @ 16th & Georgetown are gonna re-write the rules on you? Other than the pushrod Merc, which Penske was able to outsmart the dolts at USAC who wrote the rulebook, nothing engine wise has been that radical, like a turbine or a diesel or a Novi, in quite a while. And Penske found out what happens, the Speedway re-wrote the rules on him not once, but twice. However, Tony with his absurd approved engine and chassis supplier rules put the final nail in the coffin.

IMO the last "revolutionary" Indy car was Jim Halls Chapparal in 1979. From 79 until Tony unveiled the 97 IRL specs, every new car created, with the possible exception of Ken Hamiltons "Cropduster" in 82, has been a direct descendant of the "Yellow Submarine". The sleds that Zigg mentioned were flops, but they weren't anything radical, they still followed the same template as the Chapparal. I think with the advent of ground effects and such a dependance on downforce and aerodynamics and wind tunnel time, it became impossible for some free thinker to come up with something radical. But at least before the IRL, you COULD FRIGGING TRY. Now, forget it. It also became impossible for guys like Grant King or Bill(?) Finley to build lo-buck knock-offs of current chassis. But at least they could TRY. In todys IRL, if a modern day Grant King wanted to build a G-Force copy and stick a Judd motor in the back and do an Indy one-off, he would be told to get lost. Thats whats gone now, ands that why IMO, Indy ain't Indy anymore.

[oddlycalm]

Great thread. That saddest part of all to me is that most of the younger, or more recent, fans I talk to either weren't around for, or weren't aware of, the innovations and private efforts of the past. All they know is cookie cutter uniformity.

oc

[DaveL]

But at least before the IRL, you COULD FRIGGING TRY.

Which is the argument in a nutshell.

Well stated, as usual, Otis.

[Railbird]

kinda ironic that a series created to give equal access morphed quickly into one of the more exclusionary.

[skidmarks]

And even if the low buck entry is dead, so is the mega buck entry. There was a story that Ferrari wanted to win the 500, the only major race they had not won. (now I doubt they give a sh't) They built a car, but it wasn't good enough to assure victory, so rather than lose face, they bagged the effort.

Now today, if the 500 still had some luster, and Ferrari, or even Audi wanted to come over there is no way they would agree to supplying others with thier designs.

Losing the small time one offs was bad, but also losing the chance for a legenday marque to come in an attempt the race is a huge loss as well.


Thanks Tony. :thumdown:

[RichK]

Not only can't you try anymore, but even if you could, and a certain popular "racer" was on the bubble, you'd be TOLD not to try.

[Napoleon]

Missed your stuff Dave

:thumbup:

[Madmaxfan2]

A side note regarding the disappearence of the "turbine'. It wasn't oulawed per se, the rules revision regarding turbine entries cut the inlet area of the turbine to such a small area it was "choked" to being uncompetitive. As you see, true innovations upset the tradition USAC sprint car owners who would dust off thier Indy Cars for the month of May. The rear engine revolution taught them that not outlawing new expensive technology would ruin thier God given right to have "good ole boy" fun every May.

[Mike Kellner]

Of course, the real sad truth here is, it doesn't matter anymore. The 500 is now meaningless. Lord Sagamore is going to run his cargo cult copy of NASCAR 500 until he kills the race. Then when the 500 becomes a taxicab race, it will be announced as in keeping with the traditions of Indy, and fufillment of the visions. The France family will be laughing all the way to the bank.

Thanks a lot, Tony.

mk

[Redwing]

Nice subject. To me, the most exciting words in racing are, "...radical new design.."