CWs are slow(er)

[rabbit]

]217 mph (http://www.speedtv.com/articles/auto/indycar/10508/?from=[HOME)
The Indy Racing League's initial attempt at reducing speeds was a quantified success here Saturday afternoon.

In the first test for the 3-liter engines which will be used in next month's Indianapolis 500, none of the eight drivers could top 217 mph -- 14 mph slower than last year's pole speed of 231.725 mph by Helio Castroneves.

[chop456]

Good. Too bad it's reactionary.

[Lizzerd]

I can't imagine they were trying to go fast, though. It was very windy, too. They'll be back up to 225+ by pole day, I suspect. Some of the gomers at that other site said they were lifting in the corners.

[nz_climber]

I can't imagine they were trying to go fast, though. It was very windy, too. They'll be back up to 225+ by pole day, I suspect. Some of the gomers at that other site said they were lifting in the corners.

Lifting in corners - in an crapwagon they don't mean the throttle -they are talkin about the tyres :saywhat: :rolleyes:

[manic mechanic]

Hey, CW's were slower than REAL open wheel cars even with the 3.5 engines.

I asked deFerran how he liked driving a "sled" around Fontana last year..I didn't get an answer! :rofl:

manic

[scanman]

A different take on the speeds....

Around 4PM, the Penske boys starting ripping off 217mph laps, :rolleyes:

I love the term ripping off :D


http://www.motorsport.com/news/article.asp?ID=149472&FS=IRL

[Wheel-Nut]

I can't imagine they were trying to go fast, though. It was very windy, too. They'll be back up to 225+ by pole day, I suspect. Some of the gomers at that other site said they were lifting in the corners.

I agree, by pole day they will be back in the 225+ range.

T & H are playing poker, don't show your hand until the river card!

[scanman]

I can't imagine they were trying to go fast, though. It was very windy, too. They'll be back up to 225+ by pole day, I suspect. Some of the gomers at that other site said they were lifting in the corners.
Are you saying that a 15% smaller motor (and aero changes) will generate the same speeds as before ???....were they all sandbagging then with the 3.5 ??
Why change ??? :confused:

[racer2c]

Are you saying that a 15% smaller motor (and aero changes) will generate the same speeds as before ???....were they all sandbagging then with the 3.5 ??
Why change ??? :confused:

A percieved change in the name of safety.

[4wheeldrifter]

A real progressive series there,Tony. In 1995 the mid packer's were turning 230 easy AND nobody had to get FAA clearance during their qually laps. FF 10 years and you have farting garbing trucks "ripping" off 217mph laps in an effort to stay on mother earth. That's real progress. :thumbup:

WTF don't they just go back to the 95 spec engine/chassis? Take the freakin turbos off if you wanna slow em down/save money. At least the gomers wouldn't have to look at those fugly sleds.

BTW... how long until top speed in straight line is same as in the corners? (maybe they're already there... I don't know, I don't watch the crap). :shakehead

[Lizzerd]

Are you saying that a 15% smaller motor (and aero changes) will generate the same speeds as before ???....were they all sandbagging then with the 3.5 ??
Why change ??? :confused:

Not the same, but only 5-6 MPH slower. The Hondota engineers are some pretty smart guys, and I believe this was their first big test with the 3.0. And the day of the test was not condusive to high speeds. I stand by my prediction.
:D

[Madmaxfan2]

When you think about it, it has been amazing. Champ Cars ran the brickyard at 220plus with no "flight" issues yet the crapwagons take off at those same speeds. Now we the open wheel faithfull should cheer about the speed reduction that Tony hath wrought to keep them on the pavement. Yah, that's progress alright. I bet the costs for the crapwagons at the slower speeds are just as high as the bad ole champ car "CART" days of the early 1990's. No wonder pole day is deserted at Indy these days. Damn good job for fixing the sport Tony. :gomer:

[Winston Wolfe]

Not the same, but only 5-6 MPH slower. The Hondota engineers are some pretty smart guys, and I believe this was their first big test with the 3.0. And the day of the test was not condusive to high speeds. I stand by my prediction.
:D

I got mah munny on the Lizzerd.... They'll be back up to speed and "ripping off" big 220+ laps once they get closer to pole day. :eek:
Honda was the pole, and they have GOT to win this year, since indy is still the "big prize"... :rolleyes:

[Steve99]

But the cars look much better now with that "spine" down the middle. :rolleyes:
Someone needs to revive the original BAR paint scheme.

[DaveL]

Remember the days when the rules for Indy were published, participants built machinery, and they ran the cars at whatever speeds the technology of the day could run them?

But then again, prior to 1995 there was no pre-approved hardware from pre-approved suppliers either.

There were no "targeted speeds". They didn't know in advance how fast the cars would go. At best, the engineers made educated guesses. These days they pick a speed and restrict the yin-yang out of the cars so they meet it. And this comes after the cars are created to specs that they know full well will produce speeds well above and beyond what they want if they didn't slap on all of the restrictions. Basically they create specs for 240 mph cars and restrict them to run 220. Call me nuts, but shouldn't they just write specs for 220 mph cars without all of the restrictions?

The IRL: Preserving Indy's traditions since 1994.

And for the record, if I wrote the engine rules they'd look like this for 4 cam NA engines: 2.5 litres, 12 cylinders max, spring attenuated valves, & no ceramics. After that, let's see how fast you can make your car go.

(Notice how there's no mention of mfg badging?)

[B3RACER1a]

Remember the days when the rules for Indy were published, participants built machinery, and they ran the cars at whatever speeds the technology of the day could run them?

But then again, prior to 1995 there was no pre-approved hardware from pre-approved suppliers either.

There were no "targeted speeds". They didn't know in advance how fast the cars would go. At best, the engineers made educated guesses. These days they pick a speed and restrict the yin-yang out of the cars so they meet it. And this comes after the cars are created to specs that they know full well will produce speeds well above and beyond what they want if they didn't slap on all of the restrictions. Basically they create specs for 240 mph cars and restrict them to run 220. Call me nuts, but shouldn't they just write specs for 220 mph cars without all of the restrictions?

The IRL: Preserving Indy's traditions since 1994.

And for the record, if I wrote the engine rules they'd look like this for 4 cam NA engines: 2.5 litres, 12 cylinders max, spring attenuated valves, & no ceramics. After that, let's see how fast you can make your car go.

(Notice how there's no mention of mfg badging?)

You are spot on. Really, it's a chain reaction problem, and here are the steps:
1)They build cars for thier 'targeted speed', and that sucks
2)Cars get faster because of engine, chassis and better teams
3)Reduce engine size because they cant reduce boost. 5 new engine specs in 9-10 years isnt good.

Setting 'targetted speeds' does not work, and when it does, its only for a short while. To set a 'targeted speed', you have to have an easy way to slow down the cars once they become too fast...like lowering boost.

CART had targeted speeds to. If they didnt have restrictions like they did they'd qualify at Fontana at 300 mph.

[DaveL]

5 new engine specs in 9-10 years isnt good.

They've gone through 5 engine specs in 7 years because they keep coming up with something that produces too much power for the amount of downforce they have. You gave them too much credit.



CART had targeted speeds to. If they didnt have restrictions like they did they'd qualify at Fontana at 300 mph.

For most of CART's history cars went as fast as the technology would propel them. The band-aids only appeared when the 2.65 formula as it existed since 1974 (the first year of the pop-off valve) had run its course. At the time CART could have and should have gone to the 1.8 turbo, but the fixation over Indy among what would turn out to be the Fifth Column scuttled that.

In contrast, the IRL has been trying to run a targeted speed since its inception, and it keeps doing it with cars overdesigned for the speeds they want. The consistantly come up with specs that produce cars faster than they want, and then slap a myriad of restrictions on them to get to slow them down. Imagine the NHRA writing a rule book for 330 mph top fuelers that they only want to run 300 mph, and them slapping barn doors on the cars so they will only run 300 mph.

If the IRL wants 220 mph cars, they should write specs for 220 mph cars, not for 240 mph cars restricted to run only 220.

[4wheeldrifter]

I've never really come to grips with why they are so dead-set on the high downforce model. Can someone cover this again? My memory isn't what it used to be. ;)

I realize this may compromise the side by side (lap after freaking lap) that the :gomer: 's seem to love but it could lead to relatively real racing rather than the plastic, sugar-free crap they offer today. Might also lead to safer racing, racing where cornering speeds are lower and (no way dude) the driver might actually have to lift and (no FREAKIN way dude) may have to brake. Lower cornering speeds = less chance for flight.

[Madmaxfan2]

Here is the kicker, the high downforce characteristics are not "robust", meaning if the delicate settings are disturbed, the crapwagon flies. This is unlike a champ car. Crapwagons do not have downforce ground effect tunnels. The downforce is produced by keeping the flat bottom "floor" close to the ground and using barn sized wings. This leads to unstable aero, esp. when you add the large airboxs. Champ Cars have downforce tunnels in the side pods. The rules have been aimed at reducing the tunnel's effect but that feature has never been completely eliminated, for fear of guess what, flying cars.

[Racewriter]

They've gone through 5 engine specs in 7 years because they keep coming up with something that produces too much power for the amount of downforce they have. You gave them too much credit.



For most of CART's history cars went as fast as the technology would propel them. The band-aids only appeared when the 2.65 formula as it existed since 1974 (the first year of the pop-off valve) had run its course. At the time CART could have and should have gone to the 1.8 turbo, but the fixation over Indy among what would turn out to be the Fifth Column scuttled that.

In contrast, the IRL has been trying to run a targeted speed since its inception, and it keeps doing it with cars overdesigned for the speeds they want. The consistantly come up with specs that produce cars faster than they want, and then slap a myriad of restrictions on them to get to slow them down. Imagine the NHRA writing a rule book for 330 mph top fuelers that they only want to run 300 mph, and them slapping barn doors on the cars so they will only run 300 mph.

If the IRL wants 220 mph cars, they should write specs for 220 mph cars, not for 240 mph cars restricted to run only 220.

No, if they want to go 220, they should write specs for 205MPH cars, so that the frickin' spec should be good for more than a year or two.

And once and for all - IRL cars do, in fact, have tunnels in their undertrays. It's just that they draw a large component of their downforce from the huge wings, which they like because they can control top speeds that way.

It would be nice if Indy cars could get back to having a significant difference between their cornering and their straightaway speeds. But that won't happen with the current regime.

[DaveL]

No, if they want to go 220, they should write specs for 205MPH cars, so that the frickin' spec should be good for more than a year or two.


Good point and I stand corrected.

[Mike Kellner]

What difference does it make? It's only the Indy 500. Nobody cares anymore. The only drama left is guessing which year it will become a taxicab race.

Thanks a lot, Tony.

mk

[Ziggy]

Who would have ever dreamed discussing the merits of a racecar which takes two full laps, 5 miles, to get up to speed?

Keep polishing that turd boys

Ziggy